Harvey Norman Scam into buying AntiVirus

I'm fuming over this! my computer illiterate mother was in the market for a new lappy, I steered her in the direction of Lenovo and gave her some basic specs she should get for her price range, I told her she'd be well advised to get a laptop with an SSD.

She went to HN out of convenience :rolleyes:

The sales guy firstly convinced her that she didn't need an SSD, that it was a waist of money, he then had the absolute cheek to go and sell her not one, but two antivirus software subscription, one for her newly purchased, Windows 10 antvirus bundled (Defender) laptop, and the second for my dads tablet :eek::mad::mad:

How is this practice aloud, how is this not taking advantage

Wanderer78

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote:

How is this practice aloud, how is this not taking advantage

It's call sales, otherwise known as 'fill people up with ****, to sell them stuff'. The world of marketing and consumption, it's good for us, apparently!

Greybottle

Go back to them, ask to speak to the sales person, if they're not cooperative, then ask to speak to the manager, if they are no help take it to head office. If they don't help then tell the,m that you're putting the story on social media.

I had HN tell me a laptop had MS Office fitted as standard, got home, found it was the "25 use trial", took it back straight away, had no joy off the shop (they lied through their teeth to me) and ended up getting a free MS Office package after I contacted their head office.

Got a €450 camera off them, found out after 6 weeks that a setting was faulty and they offered a refund, upgrade or swap on the spot.

So not all bad.

TheChizler

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

The sales guy firstly convinced her that she didn't need an SSD, that it was a waist of money,

If a computer illiterate person I knew was sold an SSD I'd be fuming as it would be a waste of money for what they'll likely be using it for!

The rest of it, Harvey Norman are well known for pushing AntiVirus and extended warranties, you need to go in knowing you're going to have to be firm and say no. Be prepared to fight for any repairs and replacements if you haven't taken out the extended warranty either.

(Come to think of it the AV they push normally slows the PC down so much that the SSD would probably be necessary )

tedpan

TheChizler wrote:

If a computer illiterate person I knew was sold an SSD I'd be fuming as it would be a waste of money for what they'll likely be using it for!

An SSD makes a PC run like a dream, I recommend them at any user level. The guy at the store obviously didn't care about her needs.

Yakuza

tedpan wrote: »

An SSD makes a PC run like a dream, I recommend them at any user level. The guy at the store obviously didn't care about her needs.

Agreed, my mother is in the market for a new laptop and I've told her to get an SSD (the smaller capacity compared to a standard HDD won't be an issue, and the lower noise, heat, weight and better battery life are all pluses in my opinion.

mrcheez

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

How is this practice aloud, how is this not taking advantage

I'd say it's not aloud, but rather a sneaky secret practice

Wanderer78

mrcheez wrote: »

I'd say it's not aloud, but rather a sneaky secret practice

the manipulation practices of marketing is well written about

mrcheez

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the manipulation practices of marketing is well written about

aye, but they aren't shouting out loud about it

Wanderer78

mrcheez wrote: »

aye, but they aren't shouting out loud about it

ah both agree and disagree, ive met marketeers, theyre very proud of their manipulation skills

Xterminator

Not all users need SSD.

If your mother told me speed and performance was not a requirement (eg just general use and browsing the internet etc), and plenty of storage was what she wanted, i would have steered her in the direction of mechanical 1tb drive over a 256gb SSD.

Its simplistic and nonsense to suggest that standard hard drives are undesirable and being dumped on dupes. i know plenty of excs who got surface pros/ slim laptops with SSDs etc, and are really struggling for space on their SSD's after 1 year. With the OS, a few programmes and a bagful of pictures, your out of space before you know it, and cannot get updates to install etc. for someone who has external storage and knows what they are doing, grand, but for less proficient users ....

With regards to getting 2 different antiviruses for 2 different OS - its not illegal, probably not unethical either. do they have one product that would cover both? if not then its justified. PS i wouldn't rely on defender only on my laptop and i can at least spot scams before i give me bank details to prince jamal! For an end user - its probably not a bad thing to have defender and another store bought product, and certainly not grounds for complaint, in itself.

IMO you are attributing bad intentions and sharp business practises to the sales person, when there are other explanations. You are vaguely unhappy, you dont peronall agree with some of the decisions. But they were not inherently wrong.

theteal

mrcheez wrote: »

I'd say it's not aloud, but rather a sneaky secret practice

I thanked this but it’s not AH so you’ll probably get a spanking for it. It’s a grammar based joke people, move on.

Sorry OP, I’d be fuming too but I’m not sure what can be done. An SSD is a great improvement over a mechanical drive but that does not make the HDD unfit for purpose. As for the AV scenario, that’s just salesman sh!tbaggery. Vote with your feet and don’t darken their door again.

Hopefully it goes faulty very quickly

dunleakelleher

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

I'm fuming over this! my computer illiterate mother was in the market for a new lappy, I steered her in the direction of Lenovo and gave her some basic specs she should get for her price range, I told her she'd be well advised to get a laptop with an SSD.

Sorry now, but why in heavens name didn't you go with her.

before id sent my computer illiterate mother into a shop full of "sales" people to buy something she hasn't a clue about.
That salesman must have thought all his Christmases came together.

TerrorFirmer

TheChizler wrote: »

If a computer illiterate person I knew was sold an SSD I'd be fuming as it would be a waste of money for what they'll likely be using it for!

These days the choice is generally a 128GB SSD or 500/1TB HDD.

In 95% of cases for people like the OP, the SSD option is infinitely better and will give them a much, much better experience.

They're not going to be downloading or storing huge files, and 128GB is plenty for general use - internet, office, netflix, storing a few bits and pieces.

People who often complain about 'slow' laptops are actually wrongly attributing it to CPU or other factors when it's just a slow hard drive.

There are very frequent posts in tech forums from people with good laptops - i5 or i7 - talking about upgrades because 'it's gone very slow'.

Telling someone they need an i7 or 16GB ram would be a waste, but an SSD is never wasted on anyone.

TheChizler

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

People who often complain about 'slow' laptops are actually wrongly attributing it to CPU or other factors when it's just a slow hard drive.

In an old laptop an SSD can certainly make a huge performance improvement as minimum specs rise and software bloat causes the previously good system to grind to a halt, but in a new clean one I've never noticed an appreciable difference with an SSD versus without. Unless you're buying cheap most new laptops are spec'd to what's needed to give a decent response. I'm certainly a fan of SSDs, got one for my work laptop as I'm running complex sims all day, but for the OP's mother the only real difference is it will turn on in 20 seconds rather than 40, and Chrome will open in 1 second rather than 5. Ish.

Anyway I feel we might be missing the point of the OP's post here!

She was sold something. She didn't have to take it. She trusted the advice of a smiling person in polo shirt over yours. I don't see a problem with the shop.

Mikenesson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She was sold something. She didn't have to take it. She trusted the advice of a smiling person in polo shirt over yours. I don't see a problem with the shop.

It depends

Remember the big scandal where bank customers were sold insurance they didn't need

coylemj

Talking about electrical retailers ripping people off, I remember once reading on the Harvey Norman website that they recommended that you spend 15% of the price of your new TV on cables. That rip-off was exposed for what it was and I though that that scam had ended.

Until last night....

A Channel 4 consumer program called Supershoppers discovered that Currys/PC World are back to their (and other retailers) old tricks flogging overpriced HDMI cables. The current justification is that 4K TVs require waaaaaaaay more bandwidth than HD and that cable on your old TV simply isn't up to the job so they had 'silver' (£60) and 'gold' HDMI cables (£80) ready for gullible customers who fall for the scam.

beauf

TheChizler wrote: »

...only real difference is it will turn on in 20 seconds rather than 40, and Chrome will open in 1 second rather than 5. Ish....

It will make a huge difference to anything that loads from the hard drive. That's not just simply opening things, but anything that caches will constantly access the disk. Browsers will keep accessing it after they are open for example. It will also not slow down over time.

That most of the sales people in shops are clueless. They probably don't know the difference. Anytime I over hear them I'm pretty shocked at how little they know.

It's still up to the Buyer to be aware of what they are buying..

tedpan

TheChizler wrote:

In an old laptop an SSD can certainly make a huge performance improvement as minimum specs rise and software bloat causes the previously good system to grind to a halt, but in a new clean one I've never noticed an appreciable difference with an SSD versus without. Unless you're buying cheap most new laptops are spec'd to what's needed to give a decent response. I'm certainly a fan of SSDs, got one for my work laptop as I'm running complex sims all day, but for the OP's mother the only real difference is it will turn on in 20 seconds rather than 40, and Chrome will open in 1 second rather than 5. Ish.

5-7 seconds start up, compared to 60 on an old i5 machine I upgraded. Everything is significantly faster apart from browsing the web, which is only slightly faster.

A Dub in Glasgo

Listen, she went into a shop and the sales assistant recommended a product based on their interaction, you see 'mis-sold' whereas she might have said ' I want a laptop that is very secure on the internet, not too bothered about the 60 second difference in start up'

If you were that bothered, you would have done the research and bought on her behalf or at least went into the shop with her

beauf

Odd enough someone I know had a similar experience, had a laptop on sale, they went down to get it, but were sold a lesser model at a higher price and AV. I found out later when they brought it home.
I went back down with them, and returned it, and got the other machine for them.

If you wonder why Irish consumers get a shafted so often, you only have to read this thread and people defending the retailer.

coylemj

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If you were that bothered, you would have done the research and bought on her behalf or at least went into the shop with her

+1 my thoughts exactly.

OP sent their 'computer illiterate mother' into the lion's den and is now complaining because she got bitten.

Even if you walk in knowing the make, model and price of what it is you want, everyone knows at this stage that you are going to get the hard sell for an extended warranty and/or antivirus package.

beauf

Actually he sent her with a spec which the salesperson changed and sold her a lesser machine, but cost more because he bumped up the price with software they didn't ask for. Better profit margin most likely.

s8n

whats a "lappy" ??

Lantus

Standard practice in a lot of businesses. Argos tried to sell me insurance on my 10eu washing line. It was only 5eu!

Computer purchase can be tricky. Lots of options, sales guys can push and pull even fairly OK customers and extras at the end when your tired your likely to just agree.

Your advice was 100% on the pc specs but the real world advice on navigating the purchasing process was absent.

It's an infrequent purchase for us but sales teams get to practice every day. Chalk it up to experience.

beauf

sugarman wrote: »

Nothing uniquely Irish about it, go to any electrical shop anywhere in the world and they'll try sell you sell you their mothers. Its nothing new either. All you have to do is politely say no, not interested. I just want X.

A lot of companies, like insurance, mobile, mortgages and others find the Irish market their most profitable. That's not a coincidence.

coylemj

sugarman wrote: »

Nothing uniquely Irish about it, go to any electrical shop anywhere in the world and they'll try sell you sell you their mothers. Its nothing new either. All you have to do is politely say no, not interested. I just want X.

+1 Happens everywhere. The Simpsons even had a go at retailers selling extended warranties. When you're making a large purchase like a PC or TV, the sales people are trained that you're a sitting duck for highly profitable extras like expensive cables, antivirus etc.

Argos once tried to sell me a warranty on electric toothbrush heads - a bloody consumable!

Del2005

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

I'm fuming over this! my computer illiterate mother was in the market for a new lappy, I steered her in the direction of Lenovo and gave her some basic specs she should get for her price range, I told her she'd be well advised to get a laptop with an SSD.

She went to HN out of convenience :rolleyes:

The sales guy firstly convinced her that she didn't need an SSD, that it was a waist of money, he then had the absolute cheek to go and sell her not one, but two antivirus software subscription, one for her newly purchased, Windows 10 antvirus bundled (Defender) laptop, and the second for my dads tablet :eek::mad::mad:

How is this practice aloud, how is this not taking advantage

Your complaining about being ripped off yet you sent her to bricks and mortar shops which are more expensive than buying on the net. When you gave her the specs would it not have been as easy to actually pick one out and buy it for her, that's what I'd for a friend never mind my mother.

AllForIt

s8n wrote: »

whats a "lappy" ??

A lappy is shorthand for a laptop.

The expression has gone out of circulation as laptop sales go down as ppl spend so much on their smartphones which are capable of doing so much nowadays.

uck51js9zml2yt

OP, you admit she's computer illiterate and yet allowed her go an buy a laptop on her own....the first fault lies with you!

AllForIt

Cecelia Damp Cross wrote: »

OP, you admit she's computer illiterate and yet allowed her go an buy a laptop on her own....the first fault lies with you!

God forbid anyone allowing women to do things on their own.

Del2005

AllForIt wrote: »

God forbid anyone allowing women to do things on their own.

Sex doesn't matter if they have no idea what they are buying.

Xterminator

Xterminator wrote: »

Not all users need SSD.

If your mother told me speed and performance was not a requirement (eg just general use and browsing the internet etc), and plenty of storage was what she wanted, i would have steered her in the direction of mechanical 1tb drive over a 256gb SSD.

Its simplistic and nonsense to suggest that standard hard drives are undesirable and being dumped on dupes. i know plenty of excs who got surface pros/ slim laptops with SSDs etc, and are really struggling for space on their SSD's after 1 year. With the OS, a few programmes and a bagful of pictures, your out of space before you know it, and cannot get updates to install etc. for someone who has external storage and knows what they are doing, grand, but for less proficient users ....

With regards to getting 2 different antiviruses for 2 different OS - its not illegal, probably not unethical either. do they have one product that would cover both? if not then its justified. PS i wouldn't rely on defender only on my laptop and i can at least spot scams before i give me bank details to prince jamal! For an end user - its probably not a bad thing to have defender and another store bought product, and certainly not grounds for complaint, in itself.

IMO you are attributing bad intentions and sharp business practises to the sales person, when there are other explanations. You are vaguely unhappy, you dont peronall agree with some of the decisions. But they were not inherently wrong.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, I don't know anybody who wouldn't prefer their computer complete a task faster, no matter what they use it for, I couldn't be arsed listing all the other advantages an SSD has over a mechanical drive, if you want extra storage, there are plenty of free cloud offerings, and external HDD's if you really need it.

Your entitled to your opinion though

I never suggested to only use defender, I would pair it with malwarebytes anti malware, but as an anti-virus Windows Defender is as good if not better than any other offering and has the advantage of being bundled in the OS making it lightweight and efficient on resources.

I don't know what store bought product you would put on your machine along with Windows Defender, but I can assure you that you are wasting your money and it is very much so a bad thing!

HN sold my mother something twice, it would by like buying a car and then being sold an extra car jack, you don't need it, the car came with a perfectly good working car jack, in fact the car jack they are selling you is inferior to the one the car maker provided with the car.

Del2005 wrote: »

Your complaining about being ripped off yet you sent her to bricks and mortar shops which are more expensive than buying on the net. When you gave her the specs would it not have been as easy to actually pick one out and buy it for her, that's what I'd for a friend never mind my mother.

I did pick a laptop for her at www.komplett.ie, she took the decision to go into HN, what can I say, I can't force her to purchase online. :rolleyes:

dunleakelleher

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

vided with the car.
I did pick a laptop for her at www.komplett.ie, she took the decision to go into HN, what can I say, I can't force her to purchase online. :rolleyes:

but you could have gone along and helped her, after all, she is computer illiterate. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

robo

I think the title of this thread is a bit misleading

ballyargus

I worked as a Toshiba rep in HN many years ago. Got a bit of bother for telling people not to bother with Anti-virus because it's a waste of money and system resources.

Upselling and adding crap to people's carts is very much part of their modus operandi. You should have picked one online for her and either ordered it or gotten her to order it after pinging her on the link.

uck51js9zml2yt

AllForIt wrote: »

God forbid anyone allowing women to do things on their own.

OP knew she didnt have a clue and yet didnt bother to go with her knowing what these stores are like!

Cecelia Damp Cross

Cecelia Damp Cross wrote: »

AllForIt wrote: »

God forbid anyone allowing women to do things on their own.

OP knew she didnt have a clue and yet didnt bother to go with her knowing what these stores are like!

That's not even slightly true, I gave her the information she needed, I didn't know the stores would do what they did, and it wasn't possible for me to travel to her county within the time that she wanted to get her new laptop.

Thanks for trying to paint me as some sort of devil child though, she'll get a good laugh out of this when I show her :D

jimmycrackcorm

Xterminator wrote:

If your mother told me speed and performance was not a requirement (eg just general use and browsing the internet etc), and plenty of storage was what she wanted, i would have steered her in the direction of mechanical 1tb drive over a 256gb SSD.

Most users do not require large storage these days. What is an illiterate computer user going to use a TB drive for? Why do you think, for example, that the bat majority of MacBooks sold have low storage options.

Even movie storage and torrents have been superceded by streaming. But not only does an SSD improve start up but the overall performance is improved from the advantage of memory paging.

billybonkers

HN are <SNIP>

CrankyHaus

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

That's not even slightly true, I gave her the information she needed, I didn't know the stores would do what they did, and it wasn't possible for me to travel to her county within the time that she wanted to get her new laptop.

Thanks for trying to paint me as some sort of devil child though, she'll get a good laugh out of this when I show her :D

Have you brought it all back and got a full refund yet?

It's poor form but not surprising. I don't know about HN but a lot of companies train staff to upsell and even have secret shoppers attend and assess whether they do or not, with the person who didn't upsell getting "constructive feedback" (a bollocking).

Really for electronics for old relatives the best thing is to decide what they want and get it for them online and then have them reimburse you. My parents have so much junk electronics that they've bought that I feel sorry for them.

coylemj

CrankyHaus wrote: »

... a lot of companies train staff to upsell and even have secret shoppers attend and assess whether they do or not, with the person who didn't upsell getting "constructive feedback" (a bollocking).

That's especially true of electrical retailers. A lot of the people who come through the door already know the price of what they're buying because they've checked the websites of you and your competitors - DID, Power City, Currys/PC World etc.

Which means that a high proportion of customers are buying items with tight margins so (surprise, surprise) the shop will make up for the low profit margin by pushing high-margin extras. And people in the retail business know all too well that people making a large purchase are vulnerable amenable to this upselling - sure what's €60 for a HDMI cable when you're spending €900 on a TV?

CrankyHaus

coylemj wrote: »

That's especially true of electrical retailers. A lot of the people who come through the door already know the price of what they're buying because they've checked the websites of you and your competitors - DID, Power City, Currys/PC World etc.

Which means that a high proportion of customers are buying items with tight margins so (surprise, surprise) the shop will make up for the low profit margin by pushing high-margin extras. And people in the retail business know all too well that people making a large purchase are vulnerable amenable to this upselling - sure what's €60 for a HDMI cable when you're spending €900 on a TV?

Gold plated HDMI cables anyone??

rock22

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

...

..

...r.


I did pick a laptop for her at www.komplett.ie, she took the decision to go into HN, what can I say, I can't force her to purchase online. :rolleyes:

Your problem seems to be that your mother preferred the advice of the shop assistant rather than the advice you offered.

Realistically, what do you expect. Do you want an upper age for purchase of IT equipment? Should HN refused to sell to her because she was elderly and ask her to return with her son?

Even if you go and buy a suit, the assistant will try to sell you a shirt and tie. It happens. And I am sure your mother has experienced this type of upselling before.

beauf

rock22 wrote: »

Your problem seems to be that your mother preferred the advice of the shop assistant rather than the advice you offered....

No the issue is they deliberately directed the customer from a better spec machine to a lesser spec machine but added in AV not to give the customer a better experience but to give the shop/salesperson better profit margin.

Ye are all making this personal about the OP, when thats not the point at all.

If the sale guy is not going to be helpful you'd be better not using them at all. Which many will know.

dunleakelleher

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

I didn't know the stores would do what they did,  :D

erm, like sell stuff....

listermint

OP , why didnt you go in with her.

If you feel that strongly about the purchase.... ?

CrankyHaus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Have you brought it all back and got a full refund yet?

It's poor form but not surprising. I don't know about HN but a lot of companies train staff to upsell and even have secret shoppers attend and assess whether they do or not, with the person who didn't upsell getting "constructive feedback" (a bollocking).

Really for electronics for old relatives the best thing is to decide what they want and get it for them online and then have them reimburse you. My parents have so much junk electronics that they've bought that I feel sorry for them.

She wont let me take it back, I would gladly :cool:

I don't think she'll like being called old, I said she's computer illiterate, not a pensioner :P

I will be insisting on making future purchases on her behalf

beauf

beauf wrote: »

No the issue is they deliberately directed the customer from a better spec machine to a lesser spec machine but added in AV not to give the customer a better experience but to give the shop/salesperson better profit margin.

This pretty much sums it up, telling her that the SSD is not worth the extra money, but then telling her the anti-virus is, it's just scummy in my eyes :mad:

rock22

Morgan Mushy Bluebird wrote: »

She wont let me take it back, I would gladly :cool:

I don't think she'll like being called old, I said she's computer illiterate, not a pensioner :P

I will be insisting on making future purchases on her behalf

really?