Life-sentence prisoners ‘should get in-cell telephones’ (and Skype, own menus, etc)

Grayson

No

Gravelly wrote: »

Again? Jaysus you're persistent.




The post above. Are you, or are you not, arguing against punishing crime? The only punishment for serious crime in this country is prison time. Therefore, you appear to be arguing against prison. If you are not, perhaps you should make it clearer for those of us who can only read your words, and not your mind.



See above again. Is this not arguing against prison? Do the words you use mean something different to the usual understanding of them?



And again.......



Slightly different tack this time, but the same argument - you say prison sentences don't keep people in line - the only meaning any normal person can draw from this is that you are against prison sentences.

Are you telling us that, despite consistently arguing against prisons and prison sentences, you actually mean you're all for them? Can you not see how I and others might get the opposite meaning from your posts?

None of those are arguments against prisons. I've been saying the prisons need to rehabilitate. I'm not saying to get rid of them. If you want to say I'm against prison as a punishment by itself then you're right. However I'm not against prisons I'm saying that we can do more with them. When people are locked up we need to do more for rehabilitation because it will cut down offenses in the long run.
That is not an argument against prisons. At no point did I say or imply that we need to get rid of prisons or stop sentencing people to prison.

All evidence points to the fact that having a good rehabilitation cuts down reoffending. that decreases crime. And that's a good thing.

Gravelly

The should have more reform than punishment

Grayson wrote: »

None of those are arguments against prisons. I've been saying the prisons need to rehabilitate. I'm not saying to get rid of them. If you want to say I'm against prison as a punishment by itself then you're right. However I'm not against prisons I'm saying that we can do more with them. When people are locked up we need to do more for rehabilitation because it will cut down offenses in the long run.
That is not an argument against prisons. At no point did I say or imply that we need to get rid of prisons or stop sentencing people to prison.

All evidence points to the fact that having a good rehabilitation cuts down reoffending. that decreases crime. And that's a good thing.

That's much clearer. I myself believe that rehabilitation is essential, however, unlike many here (I won't include yourself as I'm not sure at this stage what your position is!) I believe that punishment is also an essential element. Without punishment, we as a society are saying, both to criminals and victims, that crime doesn't matter, and that nobody is responsible for what they do. To me, a prison system run like a holiday camp gives the wrong message to everyone.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Donald Trump wrote: »

Life sentence is for life as far as I know



They might let you out of the prison building but you are still under the sentence for life


That is why it is named as such

Ya, you can be sent back to prison to continue the sentence at any time. The State also reserve the right to never release the prisoner. There's people in prison today who were convicted in the 1970s.

Average time served these days for a Life sentence in Ireland is 22 years.

Much harsher than it once was.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The should have more reform than punishment

seamus wrote: »

And again leaping to a conclusion that anyone is talking about some kind of extreme "pure" rehab system.

That’s exactly what you were suggesting. Until called on it.

G'way with your american identity politics rubbish.

Lol. There’s literally no mention of identity or politics or America in my posts.

The Soviet Union had a rehabilitation prison system. So did China. A rehabilitation system in the US would imprison more blacks as it would be politicised.

The liberal democratic incarceration system is to match the punishment to the crime

Franz Von Peppercorn

The should have more reform than punishment

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Ya, you can be sent back to prison to continue the sentence at any time. The State also reserve the right to never release the prisoner. There's people in prison today who were convicted in the 1970s.

Average time served these days for a Life sentence in Ireland is 22 years.

Much harsher than it once was.

That high? I read 8-12 years but that might have been for murder, not all of which is life.

_Kaiser_

Do the crime, do the time.

And by definition that should be a punishment and a loss of freedoms or comforts you'd have on the outside. Not sky TV, cell phones and whatever else some seem to be suggesting these prisoners "deserve".

Given how lenient our justice system is anyway, it's hard enough to get serious/repeat offenders into prison for a long stretch anyway without making it actually appealing... Rent free, 3 meals a day, TV, radio, drugs, Skype calls... :rolleyes:

Left wing nonsense going to far once again. No wonder there's an increasing backlash against this stuff in Western countries.

seamus

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s exactly what you were suggesting. Until called on it.

Sure, fire away there and completely misrepresent the whole discussion. That's not a waste of anyone's time.

Lol. There’s literally no mention of identity or politics or America in my posts.

The Soviet Union had a rehabilitation prison system. So did China. A rehabilitation system in the US would imprison more blacks as it would be politicised.

It's funny to see those two paragraphs side by side, sneering at one another.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The should have more reform than punishment

seamus wrote: »

Sure, fire away there and completely misrepresent the whole discussion.

If you want to explain better what you mean do that you can be represented better, feel free to do so. Tell us how you would handle a rehabilitated child murderer who is genuinely sorry vs a minor criminal arrested for the 3rd time who isn’t. You keep not getting, not engaging, with the fact that rehabilitation based justice systems are injust , arbitrary and politicised.

That's not a waste of anyone's time.
It's funny to see those two paragraphs side by side, sneering at one another.

I don’t think you know, and I certainly don’t what the phrase “American identity politics” meant when you criticised my factual assertion that communist states used prison to “rehabilitate” people - generally political prisoners.

AllForIt

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Do the crime, do the time.

And by definition that should be a punishment and a loss of freedoms or comforts you'd have on the outside. Not sky TV, cell phones and whatever else some seem to be suggesting these prisoners "deserve".

Given how lenient our justice system is anyway, it's hard enough to get serious/repeat offenders into prison for a long stretch anyway without making it actually appealing... Rent free, 3 meals a day, TV, radio, drugs, Skype calls... :rolleyes:

Left wing nonsense going to far once again. No wonder there's an increasing backlash against this stuff in Western countries.

If I was told I couldn't leave my apartment for a month, not step outside or stick my head out the window I think I'd go crazy even if I could still watch TV and use the internet.

My point is I don't think ppl really consider what it's like to be incarcerated for lengthy periods of time - it makes me shudder at the though of it. That's why I don't accept this 'chushy number in prison' argument.

NinetyTwoTeam

No

Its fine to say they shouldn't have this or that but you've likely never ran a prison, it's much easier to deal with inmates who are not both bored and angry about the conditions.

and after doing a long stretch most of the criminals are much older and less likely to commit a similar offense, but for the victims and families of the victims it must be sickening when the person is released.

but it's a money saving thing, that's all. it should be minimum 20 years for life though IMO.

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

). 12 years is the average life sentence? Jesus. Why don't they rename it?

Those statics are out of date. Average life sentence now is 15 years. Still not exactly life.

As already pointed out you can only ever be released on license. If you loose a job, become homeless you can be whipped back to jail let alone if you reoffend.

I wouldnt give phones in cells but at the moment they get a ten minute phone call per day. I would increase this to three or four calls per day. These can be with held if prisoner doesn't toe the line

Mountainsandh

They should have more punishment than reform

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why?

Because when you commit a serious crime, you become part and parcel of a community that is used as a deterrent to the rest of society. Don't like it ? Don't commit such serious crime in the first place.
Many people make choices with lifelong consequences that they simply have to take responsibility for. Society has no obligation to soften the blow, and criminals have signed in to a life of being held as an example.

Indeed there is no point in long sentences if they cannot be illustrative of what happens when you commit a serious crime.

I would be wary of alleged studies showing deterrent effect does not justify strong sentencing.

Mountainsandh

They should have more punishment than reform

Grayson wrote: »

Except every murder is different. You could have a woman who's been beaten every day for years. She then lashes out at the husband one day. You could have someone defending themselves. You could have someone taking revenge for the death of a loved one. You could have someone killing a spouse because they don't want to be married. Hannah Arendt talked about the intentionality of the action rather than the action itself. Why someone killed is as important as the fact that they killed.

Each of those scenarios is different and we need to be able to adapt to the situation as it arises. I do think there are people who are currently beyond rehabilitation. The criminally insane for want of a better word. But there are others who could be rehabilitated. A blanket sentence on everyone for the same crime doesn't make sense.

And all of the above will bear a rightful weight in sentencing.
The discussion here as I see it discusses post sentencing conditions.

Graces7

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Its fine to say they shouldn't have this or that but you've likely never ran a prison, it's much easier to deal with inmates who are not both bored and angry about the conditions.

and after doing a long stretch most of the criminals are much older and less likely to commit a similar offense, but for the victims and families of the victims it must be sickening when the person is released.

but it's a money saving thing, that's all. it should be minimum 20 years for life though IMO.

Maybe watch some youtube items re prison life.. See the reality

RDM_83 again

Mountainsandh wrote: »

.

I would be wary of alleged studies showing deterrent effect does not justify strong sentencing.

I would be wary too of a lot of the the figures used that show that Norway's model actually bas incredibly effective as supporters say. Have a long post on this will put up later which I wrote with links but internet sh-t the bed last evening will put up later but basically Norway's recidivism rate is actually anywhere between 9-60% not a firm 20% (60% being the figure used by statistics Norway)

screamer

The should have more reform than punishment

If that be the case they'd actually have more in prison than they have outside of it. Together with food a bed to sleep in etc I know of people who used to call prison a holiday camp. So let's incentivise it some more...sure why not.

Mountainsandh

They should have more punishment than reform

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I would be wary too of a lot of the the figures used that show that Norway's model actually bas incredibly effective as supporters say. Have a long post on this will put up later which I wrote with links but internet sh-t the bed last evening will put up later but basically Norway's recidivism rate is actually anywhere between 9-60% not a firm 20% (60% being the figure used by statistics Norway)

Whatever side they are biased to represent, it is so easy to publish studies with statistics sometimes comparing apples to oranges, that I would take any such with a grain of salt.

In my field (education) misleading statistics and studies abound, and can be used to spin pretty much any flavour of the day theory.

In the case of crimes or lack thereof, you would be attempting to prove a point on why something didn't happen that didn't happen, and was not committed by a cohort of people who do not fit the profile (criminal) that they would have fit had it been committed.

All we can do is use logic : human beings can reason, and human beings in a society must understand the concept of rights and responsibilities. Punishment and deterrents are simple ways human beings understand to curb wrong behaviour.

Pinch Flat

Yeah maybe Egyptian cotton sheets and organic food from the donnybrook fair as well. I’ve heard the bedding and food offering are two of the bug bears of prison life.