Fees for public charge points - not realistic anymore

Jeditraining1

So this is a conversation needs to be had given todays announcements (See RTE news). The dogs on the streets could easily tell anyone that government policy was not working years ago in relation to EV's and general emissions, unfortunately this has now come home to roost.

For those of you who don't know the government had 3 targets they had agreed to meet by 2020, a 20% reduction emissions in ETH, or a 20% reduction in CO2 emissions in Heat generation, 20% in Electrical generation and 20% in Transport. Part of this initial commitment was that up to 50,000 EV's would be on Irish roads by the agreed date, this figure was subsequently revised downward twice.

Ultimately this goal is now unattainable at they will not even reach 1% (See below1). Which means investment has to made.

1. Emissions will not be met: https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0531/967307-epa-greenhouse-projections/

So as the money will not realistically be coming form the drivers any time soon (Will eventually) Has anyone got any proposals to how this could be tackled if a letter to minister or government was written.

babybuilder

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

So this is a conversation needs to be had given todays announcements (See RTE news). The dogs on the streets could easily tell anyone that government policy was not working years ago in relation to EV's and general emissions, unfortunately this has now come home to roost.

For those of you who don't know the government had 3 targets they had agreed to meet by 2020, a 20% reduction emissions in ETH, or a 20% reduction in CO2 emissions in Heat generation, 20% in Electrical generation and 20% in Transport. Part of this initial commitment was that up to 50,000 EV's would be on Irish roads by the agreed date, this figure was subsequently revised downward twice.

Ultimately this goal is now unattainable at they will not even reach 1% (See below1). Which means investment has to made.

1. Emissions will not be met: https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0531/967307-epa-greenhouse-projections/

So as the money will not realistically be coming form the drivers any time soon (Will eventually) Has anyone got any proposals to how this could be tackled if a letter to minister or government was written.

Government is not really interested in targets only revenue. Car industry not really interested in EVs as there is no money in it at the moment for the manufacturers and car retailers. The government would rather pay fines to europe or do a carbon credit swap.

Sabre Man

I think what is needed is a lot more public charge points, which will give people the confidence needed to buy an EV. Every location needs to have at least two chargers in case there is an issue with one of them.

liamog

Fees for public charging should be regulated until a competitive market place can stand on it's own.
Personally I'd set the fee at an equivalent rate of the available charging power, again to encourage maximum utilisation of the infrastructure at higher charging speeds.
I'd set the regulated price at home day rates +5%, it's cheap enough that it still encourages a switch, whilst encouraging home based charging, which allows the infrastructure to be utilised. Let's say this works out at 20c/kWh with taxes.

To illustrate, I've used a simplified charging model for the Ioniq. Assuming up-to 70kW between 10% and 80% then 22kW between 80% and 94%.

Speed (kW) | Fee (c/min) | 10% to 80% (hours:mins:sec) | 80% to 94% (hours:mins:sec) | Cost to 80% (€) | Cost to 94% (€)
22 | 0.073 | 00:53:27 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €4.72
45 | 0.150 | 00:26:08 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5:52
50 | 0.167 | 00:23:31 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5.70
70 | 0.233 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €6.41
100 | 0.333 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €5.60 | €9.16


You can see how it incentivises people to only use the charge for the fastest part, and to not use chargers that are over capable for a given car. The danger of per kWh charging is that a PHEV can plug in and charge at much lower rates, essentially damaging the income for the operator and reducing the availability.

The government support for charger installation should be done the same way as the M3 toll is. Essentially guarantee a minimum income per charger for chargers. Which will cover costs over an operating time such as 6 years.

creedp

liamog wrote: »

Fees for public charging should be regulated until a competitive market place can stand on it's own.
Personally I'd set the fee at an equivalent rate of the available charging power, again to encourage maximum utilisation of the infrastructure at higher charging speeds.
I'd set the regulated price at home day rates +5%, it's cheap enough that it still encourages a switch, whilst encouraging home based charging, which allows the infrastructure to be utilised. Let's say this works out at 20c/kWh with taxes.

To illustrate, I've used a simplified charging model for the Ioniq. Assuming up-to 70kW between 10% and 80% then 22kW between 80% and 94%.

Speed (kW) | Fee (c/min) | 10% to 80% (hours:mins:sec) | 80% to 94% (hours:mins:sec) | Cost to 80% (€) | Cost to 94% (€)
22 | 0.073 | 00:53:27 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €4.72
45 | 0.150 | 00:26:08 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5:52
50 | 0.167 | 00:23:31 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5.70
70 | 0.233 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €6.41
100 | 0.333 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €5.60 | €9.16


You can see how it incentivises people to only use the charge for the fastest part, and to not use chargers that are over capable for a given car. The danger of per kWh charging is that a PHEV can plug in and charge at much lower rates, essentially damaging the income for the operator and reducing the availability.

The government support for charger installation should be done the same way as the M3 toll is. Essentially guarantee a minimum income per charger for chargers. Which will cover costs over an operating time such as 6 years.

While this might be intuitive for the more technically minded EV drivers who enjoy understanding how the clock ticks I think it would be overwhelming for many drivers who just want to plug in and charge.

Personally I plug in at the fcp chargers and charge to 80% or more if no one is queuing and I have a long journey ahead. I've never looked at the charging rate. Ive noticed the charging speed reduces at the % charge increases but that's about it. IMO keeping the Leaf charged is stressful without having to contend with the above scale of charges but maybe I'm the exception! I can just imagine a re casting of the 'I don't know what a tracker mortgage is' advertising campaign!!

liamog

creedp wrote: »

While this might be intuitive for the more technically minded EV drivers who enjoy understanding how the clock ticks I think it would be overwhelming for many drivers who just want to plug in and charge.

Personally I plug in at the fcp chargers and charge to 80% or more if no one is queuing and I have a long journey ahead. I've never looked at the charging rate. Ive noticed the charging speed reduces at the % charge increases but that's about it. IMO keeping the Leaf charged is stressful without having to contend with the above scale of charges but maybe I'm the exception! I can just imagine a re casting of the 'I don't know what a tracker mortgage is' advertising campaign!!

There wouldn't be a scale of charges.

You'd see on the map X charger costs X cents per minute. People can handle different rates for parking fees. If the driver feels like educating themselves they'll save money.

creedp

liamog wrote: »

There wouldn't be a scale of charges.

You'd see on the map X charger costs X cents per minute. People can handle different rates for parking fees. If the driver feels like educating themselves they'll save money.

Sorry was on phone and couldnt see last 2 columns of your table! Makes it much clearer when you can see the full table.

The only issue then is whether people will have sufficient access to appropriately specced chargers, particularly Leaf owners relying on the Chademo standard, to make the car viable for longer journeys.

Last weekend it took me 7 hours to get from West Cork to north of Drogheda. 1 hour of that was caused by having to stop off early for a charge at Midway Portlaoise (because the e-cars app was wrongly reporting the Monastereven FCP out of order) just as the Dublin fans were heading home. This meant I had to stop off again for a top up at Ashbourne in order to make it home. While 7 hours is long (3hrs 50 min non stop in the dinosaur diesel) I'd hate to think how long it would have taken if there was a queue of cars at each charge point.

Before charging is introduced make some effort to improve the ridicously poor charging network

Atlantic Dawn

Sabre Man wrote: »

I think what is needed is a lot more public charge points, which will give people the confidence needed to buy an EV. Every location needs to have at least two chargers in case there is an issue with one of them.

I think every single new car park for a commercial premises should need electric charging for 10% of car spaces, simple things like this promote uptake.

ELM327

2 FCP per site.
Minimum.
Blanket €0.25/kWh at a fast charger
Blanket €0.16/kWh at a slow charger (22kW and below)

Done.
Simple, easy to follow, cheap.

Dardania

How about:
- charge full market rate for what the charger network costs. Including admin, maintenance, money for expansion etc. So that a high quality network is delivered.
- offer people tax credits based on their public charging costs
It encourages people to use the network, the network is sustainably funded, and in time, 5 or 10 years down the road, the tax credits can be phased out

ELM327

That is a great idea.
Unfortunately Irish people think of tax credits as witchcraft so it won't work imo. Not to drive ownership because the use is not free at point of use.

Trasna1

What's needed is ultimately better and cheaper electric cars. This needs to be backed up with more public chargers, a better policy when it comes to apartments and shared spaces as well as punitive taxation on diesel and petrol.

ELM327

Trasna1 wrote: »

What's needed is ultimately better and cheaper electric cars. This needs to be backed up with more public chargers, a better policy when it comes to apartments and shared spaces as well as punitive taxation on diesel and petrol.

The cars are not needing to be "better"
They are cheap enough
More public chargers are needed for sure, ecars is a joke
better policy is needed too
punitive taxes on diesel will not work because of the impact on the haulage industry
punitive taxes on petrol will push people to diesel. see above
Taxes need to be in motor tax for private used non EV fuels.

Trasna1

ELM327 wrote: »

The cars are not needing to be "better"
They are cheap enough
More public chargers are needed for sure, ecars is a joke
better policy is needed too
punitive taxes on diesel will not work because of the impact on the haulage industry
punitive taxes on petrol will push people to diesel. see above
Taxes need to be in motor tax for private used non EV fuels.

You better let the manufacturers know that that are wasting their time and money on researching ways to improve the ev, since it doesn't need to get any better.:rolleyes:

NIMAN

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

ELM327

Trasna1 wrote: »

You better let the manufacturers know that that are wasting their time and money on researching ways to improve the ev, since it doesn't need to get any better.:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: great contribution thanks for your efforts

NIMAN wrote: »

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

Agreed to all the above. This should have been n place since 2011. And worked in Norway. So well in fact that they are dialling some of them back.

Trasna1

NIMAN wrote: »

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

Look if essentially free fuel isn't tempting people the problem is something else. And it's clearly the cars. Lack of supply, lack of models and lack of range.

The EV makes a great second car, but for families looking at this option you're stuck with a gen 1 leaf - an ugly machine with 15-20% range depleted. And €8k for the privilege.

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

That is a great idea.
Unfortunately Irish people think of tax credits as witchcraft so it won't work imo. Not to drive ownership because the use is not free at point of use.

Have to say, having applied for tax credits lately like the Home Renovation Incentive, or even medical expenses, I tend to agree that the learning curve is steep.

Sabre Man

Trasna1 wrote: »

Look if essentially free fuel isn't tempting people the problem is something else. And it's clearly the cars. Lack of supply, lack of models and lack of range.

The very same cars that are selling like hotcakes in Norway?

It's not the cars. It's the infrastructure and lack of awareness.

Trasna1

Sabre Man wrote: »

The very same cars that are selling like hotcakes in Norway?

It's not the cars. It's the infrastructure and lack of awareness.

They are selling like hotcakes in Norway because tolled tunnels are free. They are also not subject to an insanely high purchasing tax. Relatively speaking, they are giving them away.

Owners looking for further incentives is just more middle class welfare tbh.

catharsis

surely the charging model incentive design is easy

charge for time spent using charger
AND
charge for electricity consumed.

people will quickly work out that they can reduce the cost of (1) by using faster chargers for less time, i.e. using it for the 20-80% sweet spot on most EVs

creedp

NIMAN wrote: »

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

For the current crop of EV's with limited range to be truly attractive as a proposition for a single car family the public charging infrastructure needs to be massively improved otherwise EV drivers are heading off on extended journeys on a wing and a prayer as to when they will be able to complete the journey. This will only get worse as EV numbers increase.

No point incentivising more EV's onto the road if they can't be charged in a reliable and timely manner. Otherwise we will continue to have the current position where many people will only contemplate an EV as a second runaround car while maintaining the 'diesel' for longer journeys. Look at the Tesla model, invest in the infrastructure first and the demand will follow.

Dardania

catharsis wrote: »

surely the charging model incentive design is easy

charge for time spent using charger
AND
charge for electricity consumed.

people will quickly work out that they can reduce the cost of (1) by using faster chargers for less time, i.e. using it for the 20-80% sweet spot on most EVs

We discussed this topic at length about 18 motnhs ago here. Based on the numbers from eCars as part of the CRU (CER) pilot programme for chargers, electricity cost was a fraction of the cost of running a charger network. I think like 20% of the cost. So the charging cost would need to reflect that reality, to be sustainable financially.

I think per minute charging for rapid charging based on the maximum available speed at that charger is the way to go as this will ensure the chargers are vacated in timely fashion and that when eventually we get faster chargers and cars capable of using them people pick up the correct one for their car. It practically ensures that nobody will leave their car charging for longer than necessary, like just top up for 5 minutes if you're just short of your destination.

I know it it bad for cars that charge slowly but at the same time it stops inconsiderate people hogging the chargers and charging up to 100 percent at 3 kW on a 50 kW charger. At the rate of 0.20/min for 50 kW units your half an hour session would cost 6 quid for 20+ kWh. If you insisted staying for 90 minutes to fully charge the car the last 20 percent of battery would cost you extra 12 quid and at least personally I would leave exactly when I had enough juice to complete the journely or the leg to the next charger.

Destination chargers should also have some rate like yoyo an hour plus the cost of electricity at say 20 c/kWh to ensure people don't use them as their personal parking space but at the same time acknowledge that that's what they are for i.e. for parking while doing something else. At public car parks the cost of charging could be included in the parking cost itself + maybe a small additional charge per kWh at cost price.

Cloudhopper

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.
If the car finishes charging, start charging for occupying the spot at either the next top of or half past the hour. 5 or 10 euros per 30 minutes to discourage dumping cars at chargers like it's done nowadays.
The car and charger communicate, there is unique information to clearly and uniquely identify the car that is plugged in.
If a non plugged EV is found at a charger, take a picture of it showing the number plate and a one time fee of 120 euros (akin to a clamping fee) is applied to their account.

Mandate that 60 to 80% of all revenue generated have to be used to maintain and expand the network and that no chargers are allowed to be older than 4 years.

And all of a sudden you have A LOT of available charging spaces and a working network.
simples.

DrPhilG

I've always been against charging for chargers based on the fact that eCars are grossly incompetent and the network is not fit for purpose.

Highlighted by the fact that they have recently been upgrading some older FCPs to triple heads. Instead of adding the new charger and thereby increasing the network, plus taking away the common issue of single point of failure, they are just taking the old ones away and doing God knows what with them.

However with the amount of 40kwh Leafs hitting the roads, and the extra time needed to charge them particularly on a long journey, I think that paying for charging might become a necessity simply to ensure that the network is used by those who need it, not just by those who want it.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've always been against charging for chargers based on the fact that eCars are grossly incompetent and the network is not fit for purpose.

Highlighted by the fact that they have recently been upgrading some older FCPs to triple heads. Instead of adding the new charger and thereby increasing the network, plus taking away the common issue of single point of failure, they are just taking the old ones away and doing God knows what with them.

However with the amount of 40kwh Leafs hitting the roads, and the extra time needed to charge them particularly on a long journey, I think that paying for charging light become a necessity simply to ensure that the network is used by those who need it, not just by those who want it.

Agree 100% with this post, especially the emboldened parts

ELM327

Cloudhopper wrote: »

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.
If the car finishes charging, start charging for occupying the spot at either the next top of or half past the hour. 5 or 10 euros per 30 minutes to discourage dumping cars at chargers like it's done nowadays.
The car and charger communicate, there is unique information to clearly and uniquely identify the car that is plugged in.
If a non plugged EV is found at a charger, take a picture of it showing the number plate and a one time fee of 120 euros (akin to a clamping fee) is applied to their account.

Mandate that 60 to 80% of all revenue generated have to be used to maintain and expand the network and that no chargers are allowed to be older than 4 years.

And all of a sudden you have A LOT of available charging spaces and a working network.
simples.

That would kill EV adoption. For sure.
5 times domestic is anywhere between 60c/kWh and 85c/kWh

DrPhilG

Cloudhopper wrote: »

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.

Way too expensive.

That would mean a 10-80% charge in my 24kwh Leaf would cost me around €13.

€13 to add about 85km of range.

Whatever is charged at public chargers still needs to be cheaper than the cost of equivalent range in an ICE.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Way too expensive.

That would mean a 10-80% charge in my 24kwh Leaf would cost me around €13.

€13 to add about 85km of range.

Whatever is charged at public chargers still needs to be cheaper than the cost of equivalent range in an ICE.

+1 Needs to be significantly cheaper.

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

Cloudhopper wrote: »

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.
If the car finishes charging, start charging for occupying the spot at either the next top of or half past the hour. 5 or 10 euros per 30 minutes to discourage dumping cars at chargers like it's done nowadays.
The car and charger communicate, there is unique information to clearly and uniquely identify the car that is plugged in.
If a non plugged EV is found at a charger, take a picture of it showing the number plate and a one time fee of 120 euros (akin to a clamping fee) is applied to their account.

Mandate that 60 to 80% of all revenue generated have to be used to maintain and expand the network and that no chargers are allowed to be older than 4 years.

And all of a sudden you have A LOT of available charging spaces and a working network.
simples.

That would kill EV adoption. For sure.
5 times domestic is anywhere between 60c/kWh and 85c/kWh

Why - how many km would that get you? And how many km would the equivalent petrol or diesel car cost?
The EV will always come out cheaper, particularly when people charge at home mainly.

ELM327

Dardania wrote: »

Why - how many km would that get you? And how many km would the equivalent petrol or diesel car cost?
The EV will always come out cheaper, particularly when people charge at home mainly.

Taking 60c/kWh.
Generally I get around 125-170 wh/km, other more inefficient EVs are at >200 wh/km.
That's about 4-5km per kWh, or 60c per 4-5km.
Approximately 13c per km.

bipedalhumanoid

Free charging isn't helping, it is actively hurting EV adoption. It is the cause of the network being so poorly maintained, which gives EV driving a bad reputation.

Far from suggesting we expand the network from its current state, where we have approximately one CP for every three BEVs on the road, the EU recommendations suggest we should have one for every ten.

Can you imagine a government that has already admitted it is worried about lost fuel excise money — and that through its actions has shown it is only willing to do the bare minimum to "encourage" EV adoption — actively spending more money to exceed the EU recommendations by even more than it already has?

I can't.

The current network is more than adequate with a couple of small adjustments:
1: Make it costs more to charge there than at home so people stop cloggging up the network with unnecessary charging
2: Make sure the cost structure is time based to stop people hogging the charge points
3: Add a second FCP to each FCP location so two vehicles can charge at once


There really are two options. Implement the above and fix the network, or keep bumbling along as we have been with a free network.

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Why - how many km would that get you? And how many km would the equivalent petrol or diesel car cost?
The EV will always come out cheaper, particularly when people charge at home mainly.

Taking 60c/kWh.
Generally I get around 125-170 wh/km, other more inefficient EVs are at >200 wh/km.
That's about 4-5km per kWh, or 60c per 4-5km.
Approximately 13c per km.

Okay, and in comparison, I recall paying E11.6 per 100km for my not particularly efficient Ford Focus - so around 11c/100km. Let's round that down to 8c to allow for comparisons with more modern diesels.
Int he ICE example, you pay that price, always. Whereas with an EV, you only pay the 13c per km if you're driving long distance (and the rest is much cheaper home rates). Overall, you're still far better off with an EV compared to the alternative.

NIMAN

creedp wrote: »

No point incentivising more EV's onto the road if they can't be charged in a reliable and timely manner. Otherwise we will continue to have the current position where many people will only contemplate an EV as a second runaround car while maintaining the 'diesel' for longer journeys. Look at the Tesla model, invest in the infrastructure first and the demand will follow.

I still think incentives have a massive part to play. And if you have something that people aren't buying into, you simply have to incentivise it more (imho)

Remember that the majority of charging is done at home, so isn't free. I do 100% of my charging at home. I have only used a public charger 4 times in 9 months of ownership (admittedly the EV is our 2nd car).

ELM327

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

Free charging isn't helping, it is actively hurting EV adoption. It is the cause of the network being so poorly maintained, which gives EV driving a bad reputation.

Far from suggesting we expand the network from its current state, where we have approximately one CP for every three BEVs on the road, the EU recommendations suggest we should have one for every ten.

Can you imagine a government that has already admitted it is worried about lost fuel excise money — and that through its actions has shown it is only willing to do the bare minimum to "encourage" EV adoption — actively spending more money to exceed the EU recommendations by even more than it already has?

I can't.

The current network is more than adequate with a couple of small adjustments:
1: Make it costs more to charge there than at home so people stop cloggging up the network with unnecessary charging
2: Make sure the cost structure is time based to stop people hogging the charge points
3: Add a second FCP to each FCP location so two vehicles can charge at once


There really are two options. Implement the above and fix the network, or keep bumbling along as we have been with a free network.

Completely agree with everything here.
Seriously.... this post is written exactly what I wanted to say. Scary.

Dardania wrote: »

Okay, and in comparison, I recall paying E11.6 per 100km for my not particularly efficient Ford Focus - so around 11c/100km. Let's round that down to 8c to allow for comparisons with more modern diesels.
Int he ICE example, you pay that price, always. Whereas with an EV, you only pay the 13c per km if you're driving long distance (and the rest is much cheaper home rates). Overall, you're still far better off with an EV compared to the alternative.

But no one will buy an EV if that;s the cost. And we'll be stuck with the EU emissions fines year after year.

DrPhilG

The issue of costs at FCPs with a 5x per kWh charge is as much about perception as anything. People don't ask about the overall cost and the fact that they will probably (depending on their circumstances) charge mostly at home on a night rate tariff.

If FCP costs are more expensive than equivalent range in an ICE, people will scoff at the thought of buying a more expensive car, having to consider where you can charge, and then also paying more per km to charge it.

The only requirement for public charging figures at this point is for it to be more than home charging. 25c per kWh would be fine as that's about 3x night rate or 1.5x day rate. That would make a 10%-80% charge around €4.

The 3 questions I get asked about EVs in order are:
1 - range
2 - charge times
3 - charge costs

When I answer number 1 I get a screwed up face, not impressed. Answer 2 (80% in around 30-40 minutes) gets a softening of the sneer. Answer 3 (free for now) gets raised eyebrows and that glazed look that tells me they are doing the math.

If number 3 answer was "about €13 for a 70% charge, then that combined with answer 1 would kill the conversation stone dead.

It doesn't matter that a home charge from 10% to 100% costs me less than €1.50, they focus on the worst case scenario.

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Okay, and in comparison, I recall paying E11.6 per 100km for my not particularly efficient Ford Focus - so around 11c/100km. Let's round that down to 8c to allow for comparisons with more modern diesels.
Int he ICE example, you pay that price, always. Whereas with an EV, you only pay the 13c per km if you're driving long distance (and the rest is much cheaper home rates). Overall, you're still far better off with an EV compared to the alternative.

But no one will buy an EV if that;s the cost. And we'll be stuck with the EU emissions fines year after year.

It's not the cost - it's a small fraction of the cost. 
Really simplified / rough / unrealistic example: If I charge up 365 times in a year - 350 times at home at 15c/kwh and 15 times at a FCP at 60c/kwh.
My combined total is: (350 * 30 * 0.15) + (15 * 30 * 0.6) = E1575 + E270 = E1845. 
To drive say 64,411km using your 170wh/km figure
Whereas with a diesel that costs say 8c/km that same 64,411km would cost E5152 total.
You're still coming out far better, and the cost for the FCPs is more adequately related to the actual cost of providing them.
Look at NIMAN's post before yours, where they note they've only used the public network 4 times in 9 months- all other charging is at home

Padraig Mor

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

The current network is more than adequate with a couple of small adjustments:
1: Make it costs more to charge there than at home so people stop cloggging up the network with unnecessary charging
.

I don't agree. People abuse the charging network because it's free. It doesn't need to be more expensive than home to stop hogging, just the same price - why would someone hang around charging, or go out of the way to charge, if they save no money over charging at home? Charging should be linked to your home electricity bill at the same price - charge in the street and simply add the kW to your home bill. AFAIK the infrastructure is there to enable this, but of course the CER have ruled that EV drivers are not the 'buyers' of electricity at chargers!

bipedalhumanoid

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I don't agree. People abuse the charging network because it's free. It doesn't need to be more expensive than home to stop hogging, just the same price - why would someone hang around charging, or go out of the way to charge, if they save no money over charging at home? Charging should be linked to your home electricity bill at the same price - charge in the street and simply add the kW to your home bill. AFAIK the infrastructure is there to enable this, but of course the CER have ruled that EV drivers are not the 'buyers' of electricity at chargers!

As you alluded to, there are legislative barriers to them charging for electricity. Also, there's the entire aspect of my argument that you ignored, which is that the inability of the ESB to effectively fund the network is damaging the reputation of EVs. Charging for electricity alone does nothing to fund the maintenance of the network.

creedp

Cloudhopper wrote: »

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.
If the car finishes charging, start charging for occupying the spot at either the next top of or half past the hour. 5 or 10 euros per 30 minutes to discourage dumping cars at chargers like it's done nowadays.
The car and charger communicate, there is unique information to clearly and uniquely identify the car that is plugged in.
If a non plugged EV is found at a charger, take a picture of it showing the number plate and a one time fee of 120 euros (akin to a clamping fee) is applied to their account.

Mandate that 60 to 80% of all revenue generated have to be used to maintain and expand the network and that no chargers are allowed to be older than 4 years.

And all of a sudden you have A LOT of available charging spaces and a working network.
simples.

Way too expensive .. a common theme for Irish public policy ... if something doesn't work or is not fit for purpose we'll design a solution that is punitive to the end user .. in this case if the charging framework is crap lets not improve it but instead make it so difficult / expensive for the end user that demand will collapse .. yet again job done.

Shefwedfan

This thread comes around every so often and all it turns into is a load of electric car users looking for more hand outs....

Electric cars are not the answer to Irelands problems. Putting people onto public transport is the answer.

I know this is electric car forum but seriously people need to stop looking at themselves and actually think of the country. That is if you are actually concerned about the environment.

Putting in a train/bus/tram system into major cities to remove 10,20,30k cars off the road is the answer

So my option
1. Continue with current incentives for electric cars...push manufacturers like Kia to make sure they offer EV options
2. Make the charging system payable, but reasonable. Fine any user that hogs a fast charger, After 50 mins they get a ten euro fine every 30 mins.
3. Ban taxis from bus lanes
4. Close city centre to traffic. Have single bus lanes and the rest with access to bikes...in Dublin close Phoenix Park to traffic apart from bus
5. Fill roof landscape with Solar PV, any access electricity can be sold into European grid
6. Move diesel to Agri/Commercial/Private. Private diesel to move to same cost as petrol by upping the tax over a 3/4 year period
7. Install large banks of slow chargers in destination train stations like M3 Parkway etc. Slow chargers to not include fine after 50 mins
8. Large shopping centre, blanchardstown, get incentive to install large banks of slow charge points

They are just a starting point...In my view better than filling the bus lanes with a load of electric cars....

Padraig Mor

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

As you alluded to, there are legislative barriers to them charging for electricity. Also, there's the entire aspect of my argument that you ignored, which is that the inability of the ESB to effectively fund the network is damaging the reputation of EVs. Charging for electricity alone does nothing to fund the maintenance of the network.

The CER looked at a number of options for the charging network and went with the (IMHO) predetermined worst option. Having EV owners pay for the maintenance of the network themselves, at least for the next X number of years, is lunacy and something that will kill EVs stone dead - I ran the figures a year or so ago and AFAIR you would be looking at each of the current EV owners paying approx €1500 per annum for maintenance - just not a runner. The best option would have been to fund the maintenance of the network (a small sum in relative terms) through the levies imposed on electricity bills (which pay for, e.g. street lighting), and for EV drivers to pay for the electricity they consume on their home bill, as above.

creedp

NIMAN wrote: »

I still think incentives have a massive part to play. And if you have something that people aren't buying into, you simply have to incentivise it more (imho)

Remember that the majority of charging is done at home, so isn't free. I do 100% of my charging at home. I have only used a public charger 4 times in 9 months of ownership (admittedly the EV is our 2nd car).

I'm have no objection to charging for use of public chargers ... my main point is the charging infrastructure is substandard and this needs to be rectified quickly before the increased number of EVs on the road overwhelm it. The more EVs are incentivised the more 'not fit for purpose' the public charging network becomes. 2 primary solutions - make it more difficult to use the network so demand falls or improve the network to cater for the demand other incentives will induce. Which is easier to implement?

ec18

Personally I think the two main things that inhibit EV adoption are 1) range anxiety and 2) the cost of a decent sized car.

This is a very quick comparison but if i look at carzone for cars under 15K essentially my only option is a leaf or ZOE, which isn't enough choice for most people

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This thread comes around every so often and all it turns into is a load of electric car users looking for more hand outs....

I'm not... I'm looking for the opposite.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Electric cars are not the answer to Irelands problems. Putting people onto public transport is the answer.

Public transport is not the answer.

creedp

Dardania wrote: »

Okay, and in comparison, I recall paying E11.6 per 100km for my not particularly efficient Ford Focus - so around 11c/100km. Let's round that down to 8c to allow for comparisons with more modern diesels.
Int he ICE example, you pay that price, always. Whereas with an EV, you only pay the 13c per km if you're driving long distance (and the rest is much cheaper home rates). Overall, you're still far better off with an EV compared to the alternative.

I wonder are petrol drivers asking the question why the diesel driver is getting a 10c fuel duty reduction given that diesel cars are inherently more economical to drive that petrol cars? Even without this reduction wouldn't diesel drivers be far better compared to petrol drivers?

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not... I'm looking for the opposite.


Public transport is not the answer.

You already asked for access to bus lanes, free road tax and free tolls...Sounds very much like a hand out to me

How is public transport not the answer?

Filling the road with cars is the answer?

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You already asked for access to bus lanes, free road tax and free tolls...Sounds very much like a hand out to me

How is public transport not the answer?

Filling the road with cars is the answer?

The Norwegian solution is the answer.
Otherwise we all (and that includes you, me and every other taxpayer) has to pay 600 million next year in fines with the prospect of more to come.


Public transport is a step back. We now own cars. I'm not prepared to surrender my liberty and ride the bus like a schmuck.

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

The Norwegian solution is the answer.
Otherwise we all (and that includes you, me and every other taxpayer) has to pay 600 million next year in fines with the prospect of more to come.


Public transport is a step back. We now own cars. I'm not prepared to surrender my liberty and ride the bus like a schmuck.

Ah now ... everyone who uses public transport is a schmuck? At least Thatcher only called people over 40 losers for using public transport!!

Dardania

creedp wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Okay, and in comparison, I recall paying E11.6 per 100km for my not particularly efficient Ford Focus - so around 11c/100km. Let's round that down to 8c to allow for comparisons with more modern diesels.
Int he ICE example, you pay that price, always. Whereas with an EV, you only pay the 13c per km if you're driving long distance (and the rest is much cheaper home rates). Overall, you're still far better off with an EV compared to the alternative.

I wonder are petrol drivers asking the question why the diesel driver is getting a 10c fuel duty reduction given that diesel cars are inherently more economical to drive that petrol cars? Even without this reduction wouldn't diesel drivers be far better compared to petrol drivers?

On this metric, yes, but on other metrics petrol might better. Maintenance on a diesel is more intense (costly)
To answer your first question, I doubt the typical driver knows how much of their fuel costs are duty or not, in order to compare the two fuels. To be honest, I only ever even consider the duty as a portion of it when the Budget is announced as they discuss the topic on the news, or when I travel abroad to low fuel cost places like USA or Russia.