Progressive Ireland -- what's next?

Topgear on Dave

whisky_galore wrote: »

There won't be any let up on the enforcement of Irish, they won't concede an inch of ground. It has quite powerful and vocal lobby groups protecting their own interests.

It does seem that way.

Beating people over the head with it in school, hasnt worked, wont work and seems to be going to continue.

Iv nothing against it, it needs to be there for people who want to learn it and it might prosper from it.

Thinking back to school twenty years ago, we spent hours on Irish but kids with special needs got sweet FA. Its a question of priorities.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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How would that be progressive and how would it dovetail with your declared position that people should have a choice of what language they want to learn? There shouldn’t be any ‘official language(s)’ referred to in the constitution in that case. ‘Insular nationalism’? As opposed to expansive ‘progressive’ imperialism. Whitewashing and excusing certain trends in history really has had its day dont you know.

So you criticize countries for trying to impose languages by state mandate -- but it's fine for the Irish state to try to revive Irish by state mandate.

Sorry, I’ll never confuse the misery inflicted on those who were the victims of expansionist regimes in history with those that reversed that same expansionism and then understandably tried to protect and rebuild their culture.

As for your disdainful references to "Anglophone enthusiasts" -- many of us are mere pragmatists. It's an indisputable reality that English is the native language and main spoken language of almost all Irish people alive today. That reality is not going to change in our lifetimes, despite any quixotic rearguard effort that the "Gaelic enthusiasts" want to make.

Why get so exercised about it then? Id rather that religious influences and religious ownership be removed from the school system completely. Its a far bigger issue imo.

draiochtanois

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KathleenGrant

draiochtanois wrote: »

Jupiterkid for president

For world president...

whisky_galore

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It does seem that way.

Beating people over the head with it in school, hasnt worked, wont work and seems to be going to continue.

Iv nothing against it, it needs to be there for people who want to learn it and it might prosper from it.

Thinking back to school twenty years ago, we spent hours on Irish but kids with special needs got sweet FA. Its a question of priorities.

They know the Gaeltachts are shrinking year on year, it's whistling past the graveyard stuff. It's almost like they want to fill a quota of speakers, even though schoolchildren are only 'notional' speakers. Unless they're in a Gaelscoil they won't use it all day, and even then they'll revert to English once the bell goes and drop it for good once they leave the system.

The 'teach it better' argument has been done to death, people simply aren't arsed speaking Irish, no matter how much you sex up the lessons or have cutesy videos of kids singing modern songs in Irish.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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The current system isn't designed to teach it, though. It's a cottage industry for vested interests defended with abject zeal by a begrudging populace who can't stand the idea of the next generation being allowed to avoid wasting their precious time on it.

Shadowstrife

JupiterKid wrote: »

Get the church out of our school system. Church run schools should not receive a cent of State funding. If parents want to send their children to private religious schools, fine, that’s their choice but this whole malarkey of limited school spaces in schools with a religious ethos and children needing a baptismal cert to enrol must stop.

End compulsory religion classes - either teach about all religions in a non-biased manner with far less hours taken up in the school week or none at all. Using religion as a means to brainwash and indoctrinate children must be consigned to history. Obviously if a minority of parents opt to send their children to private religious schools those schools have every right to teach their religious ethos.

Remove Irish as a compulsory leaving cert subject and radically reform the way it is thought. 95 years of the current system of teaching the language has utterly failed, the language is dying on its feet and and most children are being turned off it and forget it as adults, the Gaelscoils are much lauded but unless Irish is spoken outside of school hours and among families at home it is in deep trouble. I want to see Irish survive as it is part of our culture but under the current system it will be all but completely gone soon. The Gaeltacht areas are nearly on their last legs (see other thread on this).

Change our agri sector - abandon uneconomical small holdings on marginal land and revert to (preferably) broadleaf forestry. Aim for greater standards in our beef, dairy, poultry, pig and tillage sectors. Change the subsidies to promote excellence in farming - make Ireland a Centre of agri excellence the world over and promote quality over quantity. Promote and subsidise organic farming.

Greater push on renewable energy - more wind farms in appropriate locations, explore tidal and wave energy and biomass energy production. Lessen our reliance on fossil fuels.

Immediate ban on one-off rural housing with strict exceptions for those working the land and encourage living in villages and small towns. Encourage refurbishing existing older dwellings rather than see them abandoned to rot to be replaced by the McMansions.

Set up a proper National Trust to encourage more grand stately homes in the country to be accessible to the public for tourism. We focus too much on ancient ruins, castles, monasteries etc for tourism and that’s fine but much less on Tudor/Georgian/Regency/Victorian era grand houses. Set up funding and subsidies to encourage people to restore the dozens of stately mansions that were destroyed in the War of Independence and afterwards and restore these to their former glory if possible. Same goes for older houses in our urban areas. There is huge untapped tourist potential in this area.

Restart a major programme of social housing to ease the housing crisis in our cities but build well and lay out estates well. Marino, our first major suburban social housing estate, was superbly designed and works well to this day, 90 odd years later. Be very selective in allocating social housing and evist for persistent anti social behavior. Take the pressure off the overstretched private rented sector which has de facto become much of our social housing stock. Get back to good urban design principles.

Tougher sentencing for violent crime and repeat offending and more rehabilitation for minor crimes. Community service for minor offences with drug rehab and education as key elements - and redress to families of crime victims.

Decriminalize all illegal drugs and regulate them like Portugal did. This would lead to a drop in deaths from overdoses and reduce organized crime that thrives on prohibition.

Massive investment into good quality public transport systems in our cities. Metro system as an urgent priority for Dublin, expand Luas, expand DART and perhaps an east-west tram system for Cork and guided busways for Galway and Limerick.

Reform third level education and focus on quality over quantity. Arrest the trend of grade inflation. Encourage work experience as part of degree/diploma courses. Encourage those less suited to completing third level into more suitable vocational type education courses with good employment prospects. This trend to having to have an honours degree just to work in a low paid clerical entry job is ridiculous.

Those are a few I can think of...

Can I post this on Facebook and quote you, it is EPIC

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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You're cherry picking that article with all due respect. It also talks about shortages of teachers in other subjects, including other languages such as French, German and Spanish.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The current system isn't designed to teach it, though. It's a cottage industry for vested interests defended with abject zeal by a begrudging populace who can't stand the idea of the next generation being allowed to avoid wasting their precious time on it.

You could easily aim that remark at the teaching of English here. The areas of the English curriculum teaching Shakespeare, poetry, novels etc could be easily ditched without any side effects. The majority of children are bored witless by these pursuits as much as they are with Irish. If you want to study Shakespeare go and do it in your own time and not at the tax payers expense or go on to 3rd level. An immersive experience already exists with regards to English, all that should be taught in primary & 2nd level is grammar, sentence structure etc.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

You could easily aim that remark at the teaching of English here. The areas of the English curriculum teaching Shakespeare, poetry, novels etc could be easily ditched without any side effects. The majority of children are bored witless by these pursuits as much as they are with Irish. If you want to study Shakespeare go and do it in your own time and not at the tax payers expense or go on to 3rd level. An immersive experience already exists with regards to English, all that should be taught in 2nd & 3rd level is grammar, sentence structure etc.

You could say the same about school in general. Frankly this is the same meaningless argument the compulsory Irish brigade always trot out because there is no logical justification for the status quo.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You could say the same about school in general. Frankly this is the same meaningless argument the compulsory Irish brigade always trot out because there is no logical justification for the status quo.

That's a lazy response. Whats meaningless? Why are you exclusively concentrating on Irish in this regard? Why waste time teaching Shakespeare in school? I'd rather time was spent teaching Maths, Science and IT as well as the more efficient teaching of languages in general.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a lazy response. Whats meaningless? Why are you exclusively concentrating on Irish in this regard? Why waste time teaching Shakespeare in school? I'd rather time was spent teaching Maths, Science and IT as well as the more efficient teaching of languages in general.

Pupils are not spending hours a week studying Shakespeare. Also, there's no privileged Shakespearean lobby getting fat off taxpayer Euros under the current system.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Pupils are not spending hours a week studying Shakespeare. Also, there's no privileged Shakespearean lobby getting fat off taxpayer Euros under the current system.

They are spending long enough studying poetry, novels, plays etc. All of these symptoms of a bloated curricula that comes with the teaching of languages (and I'd include Irish here as well) need to be ditched in a serious streamlining exercise.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

They are spending long enough studying poetry, novels, plays etc. All of these symptoms of a bloated curricula that comes with the teaching of languages (and I'd include Irish here as well) need to be ditched in a serious streamlining exercise.

It's still a false equivalence and, frankly whataboutery. The English curriculum, while possibly in need of an update has a lot less to answer for than it's Irish counterpart.

An_Toirpin

Phoebas wrote: »

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That's not quite correct.
The pro choice side will support legislation that will continue to limit their reproductive choices. They accept that the state has a regulatory role.

I wouldn't draw any logical line between this and the state compelling people to study Irish (or maths or english).[/quote]
It is completely clear that although they may support government regulation of abortion they would prefer none. There is already attempts to remove 72 waiting period and even before the referendum plenty said they wanted no abortion limits. There is no revolution of choice, just a redefinition of when life begins. But you are right, applying this to the education system is a poor analogy.

An_Toirpin

Deleted User wrote: »

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Pupils are not spending hours a week studying Shakespeare. Also, there's no privileged Shakespearean lobby getting fat off taxpayer Euros under the current system.

They are spending long enough studying poetry, novels, plays etc. All of these symptoms of a bloated curricula that comes with the teaching of languages (and I'd include Irish here as well) need to be ditched in a serious streamlining exercise.

What else should we teach in English? The curriculum leaves plenty of room for technical writing in other subjects.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's still a false equivalence and, frankly whataboutery. The English curriculum, while possibly in need of an update has a lot less to answer for than it's Irish counterpart.

The immersive experience for learning English here is pre-existing, so why bore the trousers off (and also waste their time) the majority of kids by subjecting them to the irrelevant witterings of long dead English playwrights when further exposure to Maths, Science and IT is whats really needed?

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

The immersive experience for learning English here is pre-existing, so why bore the trousers off (and also waste their time) the majority of kids by subjecting them to the irrelevant witterings of long dead English playwrights when further exposure to Maths, Science and IT is whats really needed?

You can't defend the status quo and talking about cutting fat. Compulsory Irish IS the fat. This criticism of Shakespeare in schools is just nitpicking.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You can't defend the status quo and talking about cutting fat. Compulsory Irish IS the fat. This criticism of Shakespeare in schools is just nitpicking.

I'm not defending the status quo. I said the teaching of all languages, including Irish, need streamlining. Plus I'm not nitpicking. I'm identifying things that are a waste of time. Here's an excellent initiative btw:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/children-in-gaelscoileanna-to-learn-foreign-languages-1.3298859

kuntboy

Ireland is infected with this liberal 5hite. Filled the cultural vacuum left by the church. People are now bending over backwards to appear more "tolerant" etc. Pretty pathetic tbh

An_Toirpin

An_Toirpin wrote: »

What else should we teach in English? The curriculum leaves plenty of room for technical writing in other subjects.

Reading and writing it to a proper required standard is enough IMO. The natural immersive experience that exists here plus the ready availability of libraries and online media is more than adequate to take care of the rest.

Blaizes

KathleenGrant wrote: »

I am a fluent Irish speaker and am passionate about the language but I feel nothing kills a language more than forcing people who do not want to learn it sit through classes. Years of compulsory Irish has not progressed the language one bit. I would be in favour of compulsory Irish in primary schools but making it a subject choice at secondary. That would raise the standard for those who want to learn it and make school a more positive experience for students who don't.

Exactly and focus more on speaking the language aIso.

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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In the context of streamlining and improving the way languages (all of them) are taught here he’s a luxury (as well as his equivalents in other languages) we could do without.

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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Since English has a massive advantage over other languages in terms of an overwhelming immersive experience it could be made optional after the Junior Cert IMO. I wouldn’t teach any literature until at least honours leaving cert for any language.

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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Not everyone goes to third level. Are you seriously suggesting that the overwhelming exposure we have to the English language isn’t having an affect in an educational sense? What part of the English curriculum specifically prepares one for third level?

Above, you were saying that we don't need the "irrelevant witterings" of long-dead writers on the curriculum. Now you seem to be suggesting that these same witterings be included on the HL courses. I'm confused.

Your confused for the purposes of this thread i suspect. I’m just throwing out some ideas as to what might be done going forward.

Dakota Dan

Arghus wrote: »

Try to fix the health service and the housing crisis: everything else can wait.

The health service will be under more pressure with the outcome of the last referendum.