Residents Association problems

Sassy Gassy Lassie

My aunt, uncle and cousin moved into a house nearly 12 years ago, about a year later someone on the estate set up a Residents Association over the upkeep of a grass area on the estate, which gets used as a playing field by kids on the estate - this grass area isn't visible from the house and my family don't use it at all.

No one in the house attended the meeting and as such didn't join the RA.

A few months later three men came to the door and told my aunt (who isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer) that she owed them €70 for cutting the grass.

Auntie thought it was the fella who cuts their lawn, so she paid them (there was a fella cutting their lawn, but he gets paid when he comes to the house and he doesn't charge €70, but like I said Auntie isn't the full shilling, and it took 6 months to find out that she'd paid a complete stranger €70, and no one had a clue who the hell it was or anything else).

A couple of years later, three people (two men and a woman) turned up at the door and shouted at my cousin that she owed them over €200. She asked them to identify themselves and what she owed them the money for? They didn't identify themselves and kept on insisting that she owed over €200 for "legal reasons" and she had better pay up. She refused to give them anything and shut the door on them.

Eventually it transpires that the €70 and the over €200 are fees that the RA are looking to collect from everyone on the estate - regardless of whether they've joined the RA or not.

Cousin has refused to pay anything, been to the Guards, and a solicitor - not that anything's been done about it.

The RA have been at the door repeatedly for the last 8 years looking for various amounts of money, have put anonymous unsigned notes through the door threatening legal action, and given my cousin's name to a debt collection agent - but nothing came of any threats.

Earlier on this year a letter was sent from the RA telling the occupants that in light of their defaulting on management fees a sign was going to be placed at the entrance to the estate with the names and house numbers of all defaulters if they didn't make restitution before [date].

Last week the sign was erected. It was removed before my cousin got a chance to take a photo of it.

How legal is any of this? And does my cousin have any rights to sue, or something? She thinks she's been put on a credit blacklist by the debt collection agent, but she's not sure as she doesn't use credit cards or anything.

TIA

Victor

Sassy Gassy Lassie wrote: »

A couple of years later, three people (two men and a woman) turned up at the door and shouted at my cousin that she owed them over €200. She asked them to identify themselves and what she owed them the money for? They didn't identify themselves and kept on insisting that she owed over €200 for "legal reasons" and she had better pay up.

That's not far off extortion - demanding money with threats. But maybe not, see below.

Eventually it transpires that the €70 and the over €200 are fees that the RA are looking to collect from everyone on the estate - regardless of whether they've joined the RA or not.

That's problematic for them.

Cousin has refused to pay anything, been to the Guards, and a solicitor - not that anything's been done about it.

Has solicitor written to RA?

The RA have been at the door repeatedly for the last 8 years looking for various amounts of money, have put anonymous unsigned notes through the door threatening legal action,

Again hints at extortion.

given my cousin's name to a debt collection agent

Data protection and potentially defamation issue. https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Making-a-Complaint-to-the-Data-Protection-Commissioner/r/18.htm

Earlier on this year a letter was sent from the RA telling the occupants that in light of their defaulting on management fees

Are you sure it isn't a management company, of which your relations might be a member? Up to this point you have referred to it as a residents association.

a sign was going to be placed at the entrance to the estate with the names and house numbers of all defaulters if they didn't make restitution before [date].

Again, extortion, data protection and potentially defamation issue.

Last week the sign was erected.

Again, extortion, data protection and potentially defamation issue.

It was removed before my cousin got a chance to take a photo of it.

Mitigation of data protection and defamation issue.

does my cousin have any rights to sue, or something?

Anyone can sue anyone, winning and receiving damages is much harder.

She thinks she's been put on a credit blacklist by the debt collection agent

Legitimate agencies are slow to do this without a court order.

Del2005

Victor wrote: »

That's not far off extortion - demanding money with threats. But maybe not, see below.

That's problematic for them.

Has solicitor written to RA?

Again hints at extortion.

Data protection and potentially defamation issue. https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Making-a-Complaint-to-the-Data-Protection-Commissioner/r/18.htm

Are you sure it isn't a management company, of which your relations might be a member? Up to this point you have referred to it as a residents association.

a sign was going to be placed at the entrance to the estate with the names and house numbers of all defaulters if they didn't make restitution before [date]. Again, extortion, data protection and potentially defamation issue.

Again, extortion, data protection and potentially defamation issue.

Mitigation of data protection and defamation issue.

Anyone can sue anyone, winning and receiving damages is much harder.

Legitimate agencies are slow to do this without a court order.

A management company would be sending letters to the owners not knocking on the door.

Sassy Gassy Lassie

Thanks for the info

When it was first started up it was a Residents Association, which the family did not join. Apparently several other people haven't been paying the membership fees, and at some unknown point in time they changed their name to "Management Committee" - like a year ago or something, seemingly to give them the clout to be able to demand funds and put up signs naming the defaulters.

The estate is all private owner/occupier houses

Sassy Gassy Lassie

Sorry, didn't answer your question, the solicitor didn't do anything, looks like they either live on the estate or are related to/friends with someone on the estate

At some point one of the notes had names and house numbers (of the RA committee members) that was given to the Guards and they were going to 'have a word' with them about it - didn't stop anything happening tho

FreudianSlippers

Go see a solicitor that isn't deeply compromised.

Residents Associations have no legal standing and members must voluntarily join. I'd suggest if there is a significant issue you contact the local authority - most have a residents association department (or at least a person to supply information).

Is it really so bad to just ignore them?

I also question the defamation angle here, but as always with defamation it can be difficult to ascertain without all of the information.

denismc

Like the previous posters have said, residents associations have no legal standing. I was in a housing estate with a residents association and to be fair they never demanded money or threatened anyone who didn't pay.
Saying that I was happy to pay up as the estate was always in great condition.

NUTLEY BOY

What is unclear is the legal status of the so called residents' association.

If they are an actual management company proper as distinct from a self appointed management committee there might be a problem as they might have certain rights against the householder.

Some private housing estates actually have a management company like to those operating in blocks of apartments. Many management companies proper effectively double as a de facto residents' association.

If they are the typical older style residents' association they are probably an unincorporated association. In that event they have no legal authority to enforce membership of that entity upon any resident or to seek to enforce against a non-member resident any charge that might be due from a member.

Off hand, this sounds like the unincorporated style of outfit with grandiose notions that is trying to act like an actual management company. In that event a continued refusal to render money in response to demands is quite in order.

It is amusing to see the threat of legal action by the so called management committee. If they are unincorporated how can they sue a supposed member ? To attempt to do so would be suing yourself as conceptualised in Murphy -v Roche No. 2 and many club type cases involving unincorporated entities and members.

Do the threats referred to by OP constitute an offence of making unwarranted demands with menace - what used to be known colloquially as blackmail. See the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1997 S. 17. LINK http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/2/section/17/enacted/en/html#sec17.

It might be a stretch but I wonder if some of this could constitute harassment as per the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997 S.10. LINK http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

Claw Hammer

There is an offence of making unwarranted demands with menaces. A letter should e written to the local Superintendent of the Garda.

Victor

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I also question the defamation angle here, but as always with defamation it can be difficult to ascertain without all of the information.

Suggesting that someone has outstanding debts over several years could easily be defamatory.

NUTLEY BOY

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

SNIP
I also question the defamation angle here, but as always with defamation it can be difficult to ascertain without all of the information.

Just a thought on that.

If the sign indicated that X, a resident of the estate, had not paid "management fees" that would be an ostensibly correct statement of fact.

The plaintiff would probably be required to establish that, on the evidence, there was an innuendo that the plaintiff was of a type who did not pay debts as per Victor's observation.

Caranica

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Just a thought on that.

If the sign indicated that X, a resident of the estate, had not paid "management fees" that would be an ostensibly correct statement of fact.

The plaintiff would probably be required to establish that, on the evidence, there was an innuendo that the plaintiff was of a type who did not pay debts as per Victor's observation.

Only if fees are due? A group of people cannot abitrarily levy fees on other people. This does not appear to be a management company situation where the owners are legally obliged to pay. You cannot be forced to pay fees that are imposed in the way the OP described.

FreudianSlippers

Victor wrote: »

Suggesting that someone has outstanding debts over several years could easily be defamatory.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Just a thought on that.

If the sign indicated that X, a resident of the estate, had not paid "management fees" that would be an ostensibly correct statement of fact.

The plaintiff would probably be required to establish that, on the evidence, there was an innuendo that the plaintiff was of a type who did not pay debts as per Victor's observation.

Again, without all the info it's extremely difficult to say. Most things are prima facie defamatory but I'd have two questions: (1) Are management fees actually due? (2) Did the person making the statement honestly believe that management fees were due?

Not to mention what I think Nutley Boy is getting at which is whether the statement itself is defamatory.

I'd also (as counsel for the defendant) query whether there is truly publication - what if everyone in the estate (and let's say it's private/gated) is in the management association?

Again, just to re-iterate, I'm not making a call one way or the other... I just think with defamation generally and particularly in this case, it's tough to call it one way or the other without knowing all the facts (and even then, who knows what a jury will do?)

sexmag

Caranica wrote: »

Only if fees are due? A group of people cannot abitrarily levy fees on other people. This does not appear to be a management company situation where the owners are legally obliged to pay. You cannot be forced to pay fees that are imposed in the way the OP described.

Isn't this what Irish water did?

Claw Hammer

sexmag wrote: »

Isn't this what Irish water did?

Irish Water is not a group of people.

Victor

sexmag wrote: »

Isn't this what Irish water did?

Irish Water charges were imposed in accordance with law. Just like income tax, dog licences and paying for your bar of chocolate in a shop.

Someone else arbitrarily deciding you should pay them money and engaging in intimidatory tactics is not in accordance with law.

FreudianSlippers

sexmag wrote: »

Isn't this what Irish water did?

Nope.

Sassy Gassy Lassie

Sorry, resurrecting this thread as have new/more information...

The house now [provisionally] belongs to my cousin since both parents are [as of late last year] deceased.

The Residents Association have persisted that they are owed money, and after the death of the last surviving parent a letter was hand delivered (i.e. pushed through the letterbox) for the legal representatives of the late house owner stating that a sum of over €600 was owing for fees to a management committee, however their email address is [streetname]residentsassociation@[email provider]

On some paperwork they call themselves the Residents Association, on other paperwork Management Committee, and other Management Company. There was a Facebook group for the Residents Association, but it's been deleted or made private. Nearly all correspondence until recently has been anonymous and unsigned (and in all honesty looked like someone trying to scam the house owners). They were asked for the documentation stating that the owner of the house is required to pay a fee, and this has not been handed over.

They have been reported to the Gardai at least three times for harassing the owners (looks like it had no effect)

They also put another letter in recently saying that there was an AGM taking place, the minutes of said meeting have been delivered to the house (ie shoved through the letterbox), and on that they are referred to as the Management Company. The parents' solicitor was consulted over the residents association harassing the owners for money several years ago, the deeds to the house were looked at and there was nothing about any management company, residents association, committee, or anything of that ilk that money was owed to.

No one in the house joined the residents association, or a management committee, nothing was ever signed agreeing to pay any fee for anything.

Last year the council sent a letter to the house accusing the occupant of illegally dumping rubbish as they'd only put their bins out twice that year - this information was gotten from the bin company (isn't that a breach of privacy or something?)

A solicitor has been consulted over ownership of the house, and informed of the residents association/management committee/management company, but hasn't contacted my cousin recently.[/email]

L1011

Is the house freehold or leasehold? And are there any covenants on the property?

A residents association can call themselves what they want - albeit its a bloody stupid idea - but if the house is freehold with no covenants they have no power. There's moral collective responsibility issues and all that but from what you've said they sound effectively impossible to work with.

If there is a legal basis for them as an actual management company, the money is owed.

edit: should have checked the rest of the thread. This does sound like one or two lunatics thinking they have actual legal powers on an entirely voluntary setup. Of course if the RA has no cash the grass won't get cut; but they're acting well beyond anything legal as well as well beyond sanity.

As goes the bins - no, that's entirely legal; councils are entitled to know where waste is disposed of and have access to waste company records as a result. "the house was empty" is more than sufficient of a response to make them go away.

anewme

It sounds like a strange Residents Association almost with a vendetta agaimst her, for want of a better word.

We have numerous green areas in the estate and it always annoys me when people say, oh theres no green facing me, so i dont need to pay, even though their children play football on the green and they drive in past the common areas.

Back to the note on non payers.

There was talk of a note or a newsletter in ours, but saying thanks to the following residents for their upkeep to the estate or working with the RAc or some wording like that without mentioning fees. Think they did not do it st the time as it was recession time and ppl were genuinely struggling, and grass fees were a luxury.

Sassy Gassy Lassie

L1011 wrote: »

Is the house freehold or leasehold? And are there any covenants on the property?

AFAIK owner occupied, deeds are with a solicitor to sort whatever needs sorting out.

It was definitely a residents association to start off with, but they renamed themselves a couple of times - from the looks of things because they know they haven't got a leg to stand on as a residents association.

the thing with the bins was over bags of recycling that the bin company doesn't take, someone was supposed to have taken them to a recycling centre and didn't (they left them lying at the side of the house), so a neighbour went off on one about it and the resident who works at the town council had a letter sent to the house accusing the occupant of illegally dumping rubbish - i.e. dumping bags of rubbish in public areas.

Sassy Gassy Lassie

anewme wrote: »

It sounds like a strange Residents Association almost with a vendetta agaimst her, for want of a better word.

Very much so, one resident used to shoo his dog into her garden to let it crap on the grass. She's had a banger/firework flung at her house, kids yelling stuff at her, someone parked a large van across the driveway with the engine running for hours one evening. She got followed around a shop by a woman who was talking to someone on a mobile narrating what she was buying (used cousin's name and address to whomever she was talking to on the phone).

There's a [proper permanent] sign on the lampost opposite her house saying something about "FEES DUE" - it's the only such sign on the street and it's always pointed at her house.

She's been trying to find a solicitor to get something done about it, but no solicitor in the town will have anything to do with it.

Bigmac1euro

Sassy Gassy Lassie wrote: »

Very much so, one resident used to shoo his dog into her garden to let it crap on the grass. She's had a banger/firework flung at her house, kids yelling stuff at her, someone parked a large van across the driveway with the engine running for hours one evening. She got followed around a shop by a woman who was talking to someone on a mobile narrating what she was buying (used cousin's name and address to whomever she was talking to on the phone).

There's a [proper permanent] sign on the lampost opposite her house saying something about "FEES DUE" - it's the only such sign on the street and it's always pointed at her house.

She's been trying to find a solicitor to get something done about it, but no solicitor in the town will have anything to do with it.

Are you taking the piss ? Why is she so hated ? This all seems very bizarre now.

MrFresh

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Are you taking the piss ? Why is she so hated ? This all seems very bizarre now.

Some people at the heads of RA's and Community Councils get very serious with their role and take it as an insult if people don't follow the plan.

listermint

I'm going out on a limb her from your posts and saying this estate was never in the hands of the county council. It's a managed estate and always has been.

The original owners of the house didn't inform themselves properly of this or the MC was a mess over the course of a few years and then finally got it's stuff back together.

The new owner is now refusing to inform themselves of the requirements of a MC when the don't own the freehold on the property.

I'd suggest as indicated before that the owner goes and speaks to a solicitor.

Always Tired

listermint wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb her from your posts and saying this estate was never in the hands of the county council. It's a managed estate and always has been.

The original owners of the house didn't inform themselves properly of this or the MC was a mess over the course of a few years and then finally got it's stuff back together.

The new owner is now refusing to inform themselves of the requirements of a MC when the don't own the freehold on the property.

I'd suggest as indicated before that the owner goes and speaks to a solicitor.

How did they 'get it's stuff back together'? By erecting a bizzare defamatory sign about people who didn't pay their extortion money? By not having any names attached or signed to the letters? By intimidating a woman they thought was a soft touch because she paid them once?

How does one 'inform themselves' or refuse to inform themselves btw?

Sassy Gassy Lassie

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Are you taking the piss ? Why is she so hated ? This all seems very bizarre now.

Not taking the piss, this is very real. No idea why she's hated other than the fact that she's not native to the town, she's had comments made over her accent, and is she ever thinking of going home?

listermint wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb her from your posts and saying this estate was never in the hands of the county council. It's a managed estate and always has been.

Dunno about managed, but it's not and never has been council property.

About one third of the estate had been built when the family moved in, the remaining two thirds were built in 'sections' over the next 5+ years (not sure when it was finished off, but I remember seeing the "Phase 2" and "Phase 3" under construction signs in passing when visiting).

Looking at the 'state' of the garden it would seem the company that built the estate made no effort to landscape the garden, and my aunt and uncle never had any work done on the property.

No one was ever given power of attorney, so the place was left as it was. My cousin has no money of her own, and there was no money bequeathed to her, so she can't do anything about the state of the place. Also she's in poor health [and is waiting to see a neurologist] and the stress of trying to deal with these people isn't helping.

The original owners of the house didn't inform themselves properly of this or the MC was a mess over the course of a few years and then finally got it's stuff back together.

Can't speak as to the first person who owned the house, but the Residents Association was set up several months after the second owner of the house [my aunt and uncle] took up residence. They did not join the RA, but the RA are somewhat adamant they are owed a fee.

The auctioneer was asked why he'd not said there was any fee owning to anyone, and he said there was no fees owing.

A solicitor was consulted, the deeds to the house read over, and it was established that there was no association, organisation, or company that were owed a fee.

My cousin went to the Gardai who couldn't do anything as all "correspondence" was anonymous and no one knew who the committee members were. When the committee did put names on their letters these names were given to the Gardai and the guard said he'd "have a word with them". Whatever word was had, it hasn't stopped the agro.

My cousin's name was given to a debt collection agency for not paying the fee.

My cousin was reported to the council over bags of "rubbish" at the side of the property. The bags contained recycling material that were supposed to have been taken to a recycling centre by a cleaner but hadn't. They were being removed from the property bit by bit when the letter threatening action was sent. Per the recent AGM minutes this was done as there was a house for sale on the estate and the mess was making the place look bad.

The new owner is now refusing to inform themselves of the requirements of a MC when the don't own the freehold on the property.

Nope, the MC have not informed the owners of their existence. The MC is a name change from Residents Association - it's the same people demanding the same amount of money, for the same undisclosed reasons (other than an anonymous letter stating that the Council were no longer attending the green areas on the estate and the residents were to pay to have the grass cut - which was taken to be someone trying to pull a scam on the strangers who'd moved in and ignored).

The RA were asked for their documentation during an 'altercation' on the doorstep one evening, but nothing was handed over.

I'd suggest as indicated before that the owner goes and speaks to a solicitor.

She has, but the solicitor is taking their own time to reply, so I thought I'd help by looking for advice on here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

MrFresh

listermint wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb her from your posts and saying this estate was never in the hands of the county council. It's a managed estate and always has been.

The original owners of the house didn't inform themselves properly of this or the MC was a mess over the course of a few years and then finally got it's stuff back together.

The new owner is now refusing to inform themselves of the requirements of a MC when the don't own the freehold on the property.

I'd suggest as indicated before that the owner goes and speaks to a solicitor.

I think you are way off. Sounds more like some jumped up residents who have let a small bit of status go to their heads and have designated themselves the managers of the entire estate. They are now trying to bully people who don't want to go along with it.

Mrs OBumble

Get a solicitor from another town.

Also approach a local councillor - should be any number of them eager to help sort out problems at the moment.

Ken.

Get your cousin to go to the Gardai again one more time. When she makes the complaint ask for a 'pulse ref number'. Also ask whom the local superintendent is. Get him/her to tell the Garda on duty that if nothing is done within a week then a complaint will be made to Gsoc. https://www.gardaombudsman.ie/make-a-complaint/before-you-complain/

NUTLEY BOY

Having re-read the thread it looks more likely that the so called residents' association is not a management company with all that implies.

If this is a residents' association of the older style it is probably an unincorporated association.
If so, they have absolutely no legal right to impose membership on any house in the estate.

As mentioned previously this looks like a cohort with grandiose notions who have decided that they have authority which they do actually possess.
Indeed, it might not actually be the residents' association at the back of what is going on but rather some brass necked chancers trying it on.

What would I do in present circumstances ?

1. Check the title documents - as others have suggested - to determine if there is actually any management company type liability attaching to the property.

2. If 1. above shows no liability I would simply cease to have any further dealings with the opposition.

Always Tired

Nosnon wrote: »

Get your cousin to go to the Gardai again one more time. When she makes the complaint ask for a 'pulse ref number'. Also ask whom the local superintendent is. Get him/her to tell the Garda on duty that if nothing is done within a week then a complaint will be made to Gsoc. https://www.gardaombudsman.ie/make-a-complaint/before-you-complain/

Yeah, don't do this. No need to go in guns blazing to the guards over this and threatening to go to the ombusdman if nothing is done within a week is going to make HER look like the overzealous nutjob, not the other crowd.

MrFresh

Nosnon wrote: »

Get your cousin to go to the Gardai again one more time. When she makes the complaint ask for a 'pulse ref number'. Also ask whom the local superintendent is. Get him/her to tell the Garda on duty that if nothing is done within a week then a complaint will be made to Gsoc. https://www.gardaombudsman.ie/make-a-complaint/before-you-complain/

What crime is being reported?

Credit Checker Moose

Demanding money with menaces.

MrFresh

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Demanding money with menaces.

Sounds like a bit of a stretch

Ken.

Always Tired wrote: »

Yeah, don't do this. No need to go in guns blazing to the guards over this and threatening to go to the ombusdman if nothing is done within a week is going to make HER look like the overzealous nutjob, not the other crowd.

Earlier in the thread the op says that the cousin has been to the gardai a few times with nothing done. I stand by my previous post.

Always Tired

Nosnon wrote: »

Earlier in the thread the op says that the cousin has been to the gardai a few times with nothing done. I stand by my previous post.

Yeah I understand that, but I don't think you understand that the gardai most likely don't care about this AT ALL. That's why they haven't done anything Going to the ombusdman will not help either, and will probably make them even less helpful. (You might be thinking, 'well what's less helpful than doing nothing?' But just trust me, not give them some reason to want to make things more difficult at any point down the line is a better strategy than going with demands and threats.)

I know we'd like to think that they would so something but the fact is unless these lads are selling drugs the gardai are not come after them. Not for a row about landscaping on an estate.