Could Italy collapse the euro?

An Ciarraioch

You may recall that in early March, Italy held an inconclusive general election, in which the populist Five Star Movement and the right-wing Lega (formerly Lega Nord) emerged as the two largest parties. Negotiations to form a government have dragged on since, and in early drafts, proposals to leave the euro and repudiate debt were included in programmes, though these were later dropped.

Lega and M5 had agreed a neutral candidate for PM, but now the Italian President has vetoed the proposed Cabinet, as the suggested Finance Minister has doubts about the euro. Elections would likely further strengthen both the Lega and M5, so is the euro facing its greatest ever threat, or similar to Greece, will the politicians back off after pushing affairs to the very brink?

Amirani

They could yeah, but they won't. Italy can't threaten to default in the same way Greece essentially did, a large proportion of Italian Government debt is domestic, to Italian people and institutions (pensions, savings etc.). A threatened default will see any Government kicked out off office.

Italy has been desperately trying to continually bail out banks because of this, even though it's now against EU law in most cases. They don't want the political backlash of Italian investors being burned.

Kermit.de.frog

The market may decide Italy is a busted flush and lock it out of the debt markets.

That's the biggest danger and it's very real. Draghi's bond buying plan is not keeping their interest rates down and I think we will see a further surge on the chaos in the coming weeks.

DubInTheWest

I wish

Kermit.de.frog

Not sure it is something to be wished for.

The EU/ECB and the IMF can not bail Italy out. The country is only able to borrow due to the ECB's asset purchases of sovereign debt. But this is coming to an end.

Even if there was no political crisis it seems to me they are headed for the rocks anyway. The contagion will likely go to Spain and Portugal.

The Eurozone is headed for a far more serious crisis than the last one which never really went away. The ECB papered over the cracks.

The process is just being sped up.

What Ireland needs to think about is whether we have built a sufficient firewall through our corrections that can protect us when the market attacks the weak links. Is Ireland core Eurozone or still the PIIGS periphery?

Personally I think we probably are considered core now and are protected somewhat but you never know.

DubInTheWest

The debate will rock on whether someone says the euro should collapse or if it should stay. My personal opinion is let it collapse. England was right to get out and keep the sterling.

The thing is it won't collapse. The ecb etc.. won't let it. Just look at Greece. It was said it would collapse there and it didn't. They took to the streets and caused chaos. And poor oul Ireland was hit with massive budgets. I read Lenihan was going to let the banks burn, he got a call in his car on the way to the dail from someone in europe and was told there would be war in europe if we didn't bail them out (banks.)

We got it up the gicker while Mrs Merkel stroked our governments ego, pack of scum.

Kermit.de.frog

Ireland's problems were created in Ireland.

The EU did not elect our governments.

Irish people need to take responsibility for their own actions. Why should a German taxpayer bail out Paddy who put themselves in the situation they found themselves? Why would Germany take the consequences of feckless decision making in Ireland? Let the banks go seems simple - until you realise it weakens every bank in the eurozone and puts those countries at risk. That's systemic risk.

Greece is not Italy. Italy goes down and the eurozone goes with it. If the eurozone goes with it Ireland will suffer a catastrophic outcome and there will be no bailouts this time.

There should be an orderly exit of countries that are too delinquent economically for the currency (this can't happen because the market anticipates these things) and Italy is at the top of that list. It would have to be quick, an overnight thing to prevent speculation tearing other countries a part. Even then the consequences for countries on the periphery are really bad.

DubInTheWest

The Irish people need to take responsibility for their own actions, that's a laugh and ridiculous to say the least. The banks gave the property developers and builders the cash and the rest of the nation has to pay hugely for it.
Europe/Irish Government wouldn't let the bondholders burn because politicians here in Ireland and all over Europe had major stakes.

Around that time all the dirty green party wanted to do was ban light bulbs lol and put up the price of petrol and diesel, may they never return. Labour came around the door promising this that and tother and went back on everything, again may they never return.

If Ireland doesn't jump high for the EU they whip our ass, just google it, lots of reading on independent.ie

Kermit.de.frog

Again, Irish governments elected by the Irish people facilitated feckless lending policies.

I did not see Irish people complain at the time.

So why should Germany have bailed the Irish out of that at risk to themselves?

The Irish people, this country, is 100% responsible for the mess it got itself in.

Everyone knows it except some Irish people because they are too proud or whatever.

You should be pissed off, not at Europe, but the Irish voters that put in Bertie and the rest of them that ultimately had us going cap in hand to the Brits and everyone else for a bailout.

That's ours. Take ownership of it and stop bull****ting around it. You fool no one not least those outside the country. Everyone knows what happened in this country.

If it makes you feel better the Italians will suffer the same fate. Choose corruption and incompetence then take the consequences.

DubInTheWest

Ok it was all our fault. I worked nearly 80 hour weeks back then. I never even voted for Bertie at the time. I was made reduntant and ended up with debt. I have myself to blame. Hmmm Ok, Germany is the best country ever.

Kermit.de.frog

DubInTheWest wrote: »

Ok it was all our fault. I worked nearly 80 hour weeks back then. I never even voted for Bertie at the time. I was made reduntant and ended up with debt. I have myself to blame. Hmmm Ok, Germany is the best country ever.

I mean the Irish people collectively. Not you personally. A lot of us got caught up in it.

It pisses me off. But it is IRISH voters that did that to themselves, me, you and all of us.

The EU did not do that to us. "We" did it to ourselves.

I'm just sick of the "blame everyone else" bull**** you hear. EVERYONE knows outside of Ireland exactly what happened here.

Thankfully we are hopefully through it.

What's important is that it never happens again.

Kermit.de.frog

Italian bonds rallied a little this morning on the failure of the lunatic movement to form a government.

Unfortunately the market views Italy as something of a lost cause and those gains are being erased quick fast.

What can Draghi do to stop the bleeding? Nothing. The Bundesbank will not allow him any special arrangements for Italy. The bond buying by the ECB is being tapered, soon ended and won't be reversed.

The EU won't step in. As they said the market will do the work. They don't have to do anything.

Wanderer78

The EU, and in particular the euro is flawed by design, it's obvious that wealth and power are centralising in the euro zone, particularly since the crash, if this doesn't change soon, it may very well collapse. Initiatives such as qe and austerity have failed across the euro zone, and no, individual countries such as ours were not completely at fault for causing our individual crashes, having a common currency with no true surplus recycling mechanism in place, was doomed from conception. Maybe we will see more bail ins this time around for Italy?

listermint

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The EU, and in particular the euro is flawed by design, it's obvious that wealth and power are centralising in the euro zone, particularly since the crash, if this doesn't change soon, it may very well collapse. Initiatives such as qe and austerity have failed across the euro zone, and no, individual countries such as ours were not completely at fault for causing our individual crashes, having a common currency with no true surplus recycling mechanism in place, was doomed from conception. Maybe we will see more bail ins this time around for Italy?

Doomed to fail.. but we are the fastest growing economy in Europe, perhaps the world ?

Yes were having it bad here with full motorways because our unemployment is ridiculously low.

Yes we have housing problems and other things but i dont think the Euro is one of them. Some utter drivel in this thread all the same.

FreudianSlippers

DubInTheWest wrote: »

The Irish people need to take responsibility for their own actions, that's a laugh and ridiculous to say the least. The banks gave the property developers and builders the cash and the rest of the nation has to pay hugely for it.
Europe/Irish Government wouldn't let the bondholders burn because politicians here in Ireland and all over Europe had major stakes.

Around that time all the dirty green party wanted to do was ban light bulbs lol and put up the price of petrol and diesel, may they never return. Labour came around the door promising this that and tother and went back on everything, again may they never return.

If Ireland doesn't jump high for the EU they whip our ass, just google it, lots of reading on independent.ie

Ah the typical economic ignorance of wider global economic crisis which significantly contributed to the Irish collapse. Anyone spouting revisionist nonsense that Ireland could have been insulated from the global economic collapse should not be taken seriously in the slightest.

Wanderer78

listermint wrote: »

Doomed to fail.. but we are the fastest growing economy in Europe, perhaps the world ?

Yes were having it bad here with full motorways because our unemployment is ridiculously low.

Yes we have housing problems and other things but i dont think the Euro is one of them. Some utter drivel in this thread all the same.

we re codding ourselves with the metrics and metric systems we use to measure the health of our societies, terms such as gdp and full employment etc. its becoming clearly obvious that the cost of living is in fact rising but wages have become stagnant, or are not rising fast enough to meet this rising cost of living. many newer jobs created are of low pay and have a very precarious nature, jobs such as zero hour contracts etc. our most essential needs are not being met, in ireland this is showing in failing housing policies and deep problems within our health services etc. this is particularly obvious with younger generations, where their future is very uncertain regarding these matters, the euro is failing, but we havent accepted this yet

FreudianSlippers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re codding ourselves with the metrics and metric systems we use to measure the health of our societies, terms such as gdp and full employment etc. its becoming clearly obvious that the cost of living is in fact rising but wages have become stagnant, or are not rising fast enough to meet this rising cost of living. many newer jobs created are of low pay and have a very precarious nature, jobs such as zero hour contracts etc. our most essential needs are not being met, in ireland this is showing in failing housing policies and deep problems within our health services etc. this is particularly obvious with younger generations, where their future is very uncertain regarding these matters, the euro is failing, but we havent accepted this yet

Not linking the leftist handbook's talking points in this post to the last sentence regarding how this results in the Euro failing tbh.

listermint

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re codding ourselves with the metrics and metric systems we use to measure the health of our societies, terms such as gdp and full employment etc. its becoming clearly obvious that the cost of living is in fact rising but wages have become stagnant, or are not rising fast enough to meet this rising cost of living. many newer jobs created are of low pay and have a very precarious nature, jobs such as zero hour contracts etc. our most essential needs are not being met, in ireland this is showing in failing housing policies and deep problems within our health services etc. this is particularly obvious with younger generations, where their future is very uncertain regarding these matters, the euro is failing, but we havent accepted this yet

A paragraph of soundbites,

Where is the evidence of widespread zero hour contracts in this country?

Is it any wonder you cant get a tradesman for love nor money.

Why you ask? because everyone is doing up their homes/ gardens/ extensions.. and so forth.

But yes theres no money in the country and the euro is failing.


Quality!

Wanderer78

listermint wrote: »

A paragraph of soundbites,

Where is the evidence of widespread zero hour contracts in this country?

Is it any wonder you cant get a tradesman for love nor money.

Why you ask? because everyone is doing up their homes/ gardens/ extensions.. and so forth.

But yes theres no money in the country and the euro is failing.


Quality!

you need a macro head to realise this, crisis such as our one in housing is actually critical, its showing we cannot provide the most essential needs in our society, again all this is evident with younger generations, you will see many of them are stuck at lower paid jobs, many who have been working for some time are stuck in this manner, and probably never will be able to buy their own homes, even well respected analysts such as joe stiglitz speak of such problems. its also important to realise the role of money, i.e. debt, we re actually heavily indebted, causing other analysts such as steve keen to call us a part of the 'walking dead of debt'

oh maybe theres a shortage of trades people as well! id imagine the younger generations arent chasing trades people, as they dont actually own their own homes, and many simply never will

FreudianSlippers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you need a macro head to realise this, crisis such as our one in housing is actually critical, its showing we cannot provide the most essential needs in our society, again all this is evident with younger generations, you will see many of them are stuck at lower paid jobs, many who have been working for some time are stuck in this manner, and probably never will be able to buy their own homes, even well respected analysts such as joe stiglitz speak of such problems. its also important to realise the role of money, i.e. debt, we re actually heavily indebted, causing other analysts such as steve keen to call us a part of the 'walking dead of debt'

oh maybe theres a shortage of trades people as well! id imagine the younger generations arent chasing trades people, as they dont actually own their own homes, and many simply never will

So your problem is with the modern global economy, fiat currency and capitalism as opposed to the Euro?


The word "claptrap" springs to mind for some reason...

LeinsterDub

A standoff over Italy’s future in the eurozone has forced the resignation of the populist prime minister-in-waiting, Giuseppe Conte, after the country’s president refused to accept Conte’s controversial choice for finance minister.

Looks like it's the Italian government that is failing


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/italys-pm-designate-giuseppe-conte-fails-to-form-populist-government

Franz Von Peppercorn

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ireland's problems were created in Ireland.

The EU did not elect our governments.

Irish people need to take responsibility for their own actions. Why should a German taxpayer bail out Paddy who put themselves in the situation they found themselves? Why would Germany take the consequences of feckless decision making in Ireland? Let the banks go seems simple - until you realise it weakens every bank in the eurozone and puts those countries at risk. That's systemic risk.

Greece is not Italy. Italy goes down and the eurozone goes with it. If the eurozone goes with it Ireland will suffer a catastrophic outcome and there will be no bailouts this time.

There should be an orderly exit of countries that are too delinquent economically for the currency (this can't happen because the market anticipates these things) and Italy is at the top of that list. It would have to be quick, an overnight thing to prevent speculation tearing other countries a part. Even then the consequences for countries on the periphery are really bad.

Because for every borrower there is a lender. By bailing out Irish banks those banks continued to pay back loans to German banks or bond holders.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

So your problem is with the modern global economy, fiat currency and capitalism as opposed to the Euro?


The word "claptrap" springs to mind for some reason...

That’s a technical rebuttal.

The euro is a disaster. Especially for Italy and Mediterranean states in general.

Wanderer78

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

So your problem is with the modern global economy, fiat currency and capitalism as opposed to the Euro?


The word "claptrap" springs to mind for some reason...

thanks, very mature debate!:rolleyes:

theres many well respected economic analysts, some mentioned, that have been talking about this for years, the euro has deep flaws, and we havent addressed them, so some how the euro has nothing to do with the modern global economy, fiat currency and capitalism?

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Because for every borrower there is a lender. By bailing out Irish banks those banks continued to pay back loans to German banks or bond holders.

As opposed to...?


Serious question.

Wanderer78

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As opposed to...?


Serious question.

its actually a fair question, i think we were in a position of damned if you do, damned if you dont

FreudianSlippers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

thanks, very mature debate!:rolleyes:

theres many well respected economic analysts, some mentioned, that have been talking about this for years, the euro has deep flaws, and we havent addressed them, so some how the euro has nothing to do with the modern global economy, fiat currency and capitalism?

That may well be the case; unfortunately you've failed to raise any of these serious academic points which support your opinion.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As opposed to...?


Serious question.

As opposed to the EU bailing them out or printing money to buy the bonds which is what they did later anyway under QE.

Edit :

By later I don’t mean they bought the Irish bonds. They became sovereign debt. They bought other bonds though.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

As opposed to the EU bailing them out or printing money to buy the bonds which is what they did later anyway under QE.

So no difference. Gotcha.

FreudianSlippers

BTW Italy was ****ed long before the Euro.

Wanderer78

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That may well be the case; unfortunately you've failed to raise any of these serious academic points which support your opinion.

i struggle to do so via text, but i do follow the work of many well respected economic commentators, some mentioned. the developments in the euro zone have been very worrying, particularly since the crash, i fear we have not addressed the underlining issues that caused it

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

So no difference. Gotcha.

Huge difference. What I suggested wasn’t a cost to the Irish tax payers.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

............e stuck at lower paid jobs, many who have been working for some time are stuck in this manner, and probably never will be able to buy their own homes.............

If you're stuck in a lower paid job than the chances are you have no or useless qualifications and no trade / skill.

If someone can do your job with little training for €10/hour ish than owning a home is and always was out of reach.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

BTW Italy was ****ed long before the Euro.

No. It wasn’t.

The devaluations of the lira worked. They made Italy more competitive every time and the small industries that keep Italy going (its a very entrepreneurial society) were able to export more. In the abscence of that mechanism those companies have folded.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Augeo wrote: »

If you're stuck in a lower paid job than the chances are you have no or useless qualifications and no trade / skill.

If someone can do your job with little training for €10/hour ish than owning a home is and always was out of reach.

House ownership was 80% at one stage. That was pretty much all workers as unemployment was 10-20% in that era.

FreudianSlippers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i struggle to do so via text, but i do follow the work of many well respected economic commentators, some mentioned. the developments in the euro zone have been very worrying, particularly since the crash, i fear we have not addressed the underlining issues that caused it

The crash (locally) was a result of (a) the global economic crisis - intrinsically linked to, inter alia, credit default swapping and (b) a credit-fuelled property bubble.

Neither of those issues exist at the moment.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

House ownership was 80% at one stage. That was pretty much all workers as unemployment was 10-20% in that era.

I don't believe anyone suggesting that a person making €10/hour should have a mortgage should be given serious merit for their economic views.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Huge difference. What I suggested wasn’t a cost to the Irish tax payers.

...except that it is.

professore

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I mean the Irish people collectively. Not you personally. A lot of us got caught up in it.

It pisses me off. But it is IRISH voters that did that to themselves, me, you and all of us.

The EU did not do that to us. "We" did it to ourselves.

I'm just sick of the "blame everyone else" bull**** you hear. EVERYONE knows outside of Ireland exactly what happened here.

Thankfully we are hopefully through it.

What's important is that it never happens again.

Look at property prices going mad again. "This time it's different". Sure it is.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

House ownership was 80% at one stage. That was pretty much all workers as unemployment was 10-20% in that era.

In 2004, it's under 70% now.
To be expected after a fairly serious recession.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No. It wasn’t.

The devaluations of the lira worked. They made Italy more competitive every time and the small industries that keep Italy going (its a very entrepreneurial society) were able to export more. In the abscence of that mechanism those companies have folded.

Great point as to why the Eurozone benefited a failing Italy.

Bilateral trade between Italy and other Member States increased 38% immediately between ERM-II and 2002, without trade diversion with non-EZ members. This is despite Italy's huge loss of competitiveness prior to entry into the EZ... frankly, there is no evidence to suggest that Italy could have recovered in the manner you suggest without entry into the EZ and I'd suggest that given the appalling state of Italy at that point in time, there is no way Italy could have survived in terms of trade against and outside the EZ.

ERM-II also undeniably curbed Italian inflation by 0.3% per annum over the 10 years after joining the EZ; in fact when you compare Italy to only non-EZ countries (which is required because there is a downward contagion impact of other more successful countries such as Sweden also pegging exchange on ERM-II) reduction in Italian inflation as a result of EZ membership was 0.7% per annum.

Italian 10-year bond yield reduced by 158 points per annum (it went from over 1% to less than 0.4% in about 3 years), resulting in interest savings of €22.5bn on government debt from 1999-2007.

Labour productivity increased (albeit nowhere near the EZ average increase)and per-capita GDP almost quadrupled.

Sounds to me like the EZ has been nothing but life-changing for a nation that was on its knees prior to joining.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I don't believe anyone suggesting that a person making €10/hour should have a mortgage should be given serious merit for their economic views.

Both a personalised insult and a lack of understanding of what I said.

I didn’t say that a person making €10 a hour should get a mortgage today. I said that most workers used to get mortgages. That’s a statistical fact.

FreudianSlippers

professore wrote: »

Look at property prices going mad again. "This time it's different". Sure it is.

Property prices are not necessarily the important indicator; what you should be looking at is the difference in credit between then and now. It's a massive difference.

I'm not suggesting the market isn't overheated, it is, but it's not a credit-fuelled bubble like last time. Italy is going to force a correction if they don't sort themselves out and Brexit could have a huge impact (either direction tbh) - I know I wouldn't be jumping to buy property in Ireland at the moment though.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Great point as to why the Eurozone benefited a failing Italy.

Bilateral trade between Italy and other Member States increased 38% immediately between ERM-II and 2002, without trade diversion with non-EZ members. This is despite Italy's huge loss of competitiveness prior to entry into the EZ... frankly, there is no evidence to suggest that Italy could have recovered in the manner you suggest without entry into the EZ and I'd suggest that given the appalling state of Italy at that point in time, there is no way Italy could have survived in terms of trade against and outside the EZ.

ERM-II also undeniably curbed Italian inflation by 0.3% per annum over the 10 years after joining the EZ; in fact when you compare Italy to only non-EZ countries (which is required because there is a downward contagion impact of other more successful countries such as Sweden also pegging exchange on ERM-II) reduction in Italian inflation as a result of EZ membership was 0.7% per annum.

Italian 10-year bond yield reduced by 158 points per annum (it went from over 1% to less than 0.4% in about 3 years), resulting in interest savings of €22.5bn on government debt from 1999-2007.

Labour productivity increased (albeit nowhere near the EZ average increase)and per-capita GDP almost quadrupled.

Sounds to me like the EZ has been nothing but life-changing for a nation that was on its knees prior to joining.

That sounds like copy and paste.

A quick glance at Italy’s historical gdp per capita growth shows that it grew at much higher levels historically prior to the euro than after it. I mean the electorate aren’t mad. They were pro European and now they are not. What happened was the reality of the euro project for them.

The euro is a disaster for the Mediterranean countries and may well be a disaster for us all

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Both a personalised insult and a lack of understanding of what I said.

I didn’t say that a person making €10 a hour should get a mortgage today. I said that most workers used to get mortgages. That’s a statistical fact.

Lots used to get council houses very cheaply. Not by means of a mortgage as such from the likes of BOI or AIB like first time buyers today.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Both a personalised insult and a lack of understanding of what I said.

I didn’t say that a person making €10 a hour should get a mortgage today. I said that most workers used to get mortgages. That’s a statistical fact.

I'm sorry that you take my views on your economic credibility so personally, but I stand over the point - in fact, more so now that you've clarified (?) your point.

The concept that most "workers" should have mortgages (or should have been able to get mortgages in the past) is fallacious and economically absurd.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That sounds like copy and paste.

It's not, but thanks I guess?

A quick glance at Italy’s historical gdp per capita growth shows that it grew at much higher levels historically prior to the euro than after it.

What it shows in terms of GDP growth is that Italy was wildly boom-bust prior to the EZ, then it went through a period of relative stability until 2008.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=IT


You're also ignoring (conveniently) the deflation elephant in the room: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.DEFL.KD.ZG?locations=IT

The euro is a disaster for the Mediterranean countries and may well be a disaster for us all

An opinion unsourced and unsupported by even alleged "copy and paste"

jmreire

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Again, Irish governments elected by the Irish people facilitated feckless lending policies.

I did not see Irish people complain at the time.

So why should Germany have bailed the Irish out of that at risk to themselves?

The Irish people, this country, is 100% responsible for the mess it got itself in.

Everyone knows it except some Irish people because they are too proud or whatever.

You should be pissed off, not at Europe, but the Irish voters that put in Bertie and the rest of them that ultimately had us going cap in hand to the Brits and everyone else for a bailout.That's ours. Take ownership of it and stop bull****ting around it. You fool no one not least those outside the country. Everyone knows what happened in this country.

If it makes you feel better the Italians will suffer the same fate. Choose corruption and incompetence then take the consequences.

Kermit, first of all, who gave all this money to the Irish Banks? Christiane Lagarde has said that Ireland was loaned amounts of money far exceeding what would be considered normal lending. How and why did that happen? Had the European lending banks no regard for Banking rules and regulations? Not according to Christiane anyway.....
Secondly, I have no quarrel with letting the borrower's pay for the consequences of their borrowing. What I do object to is the fact that commercial / banking debt was transferred onto sovereign debt. Contrary to what Enda said, we all did not "Lose the run of ourselves".
So now we have the situation where anyone born now in Ireland, owes €45'000 as their "Share" of the national debt.
Kermit, in your opinion, will Ireland ever be able to reduce this debt to anything approaching normal levels, relative to GNP?
Thirdly "We get the government we voted for" That's very true, unfortunately. But don't blame the Irish people in general, they can only vote for what is presented to them.

whatstherush

jmreire wrote: »

Kermit, first of all, who gave all this money to the Irish Banks?

UK and US banks in the main, how does that fit the Germans made us do it narrative?

4068ac1elhodqr

Italy the clear favourite now, to leave the EU (and well ahead of greece).
Reckon they'll be gone before 2025.

listermint

Addyson Small Neighborhood wrote: »

Italy the clear favourite now, to leave the EU (and well ahead of greece).
Reckon they'll be gone before 2025.

I wouldnt even put a Euro on it, it would a Euro wasted