Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Luckily enough bicycles are impervious to water and can cut right through said floods :pac:

Yeah, just don't do it too often :P


PS: I can see the rust is fake on the photo, but what the hell.

Isambard

westtip wrote: »

Its not on the WRC its on the pre-existing Ennis/Limerick commuter line, just as Oranmore is not on the WRC it's on the pre-existing the Athenry - Galway commuter line.

I'd argue that Limerick to Ennis is on the corridor, just not on the rebuilt section. Oranmore though is definitely not on the WRC

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

I'd argue that Limerick to Ennis is on the corridor, just not on the rebuilt section. Oranmore though is definitely not on the WRC

correct.

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, just don't do it too often :P

PS: I can see the rust is fake on the photo, but what the hell.

That's actually an awesome bike with the added benefit of discouraging locals from hounding you to buy their scones.

Losty Dublin

ezstreet5 wrote: »

That's actually an awesome bike with the added benefit of discouraging locals from hounding you to buy their scones.

Though it's not sufficiently fit or flashy or worthy to thread upon any greenway. Shame on you and your High Nelly attitude.

Jamie2k9

Sunday Business Post reports WRC reviews rule out reopening. I am not subscribed so cannot see full article.

https://www.businesspost.ie/transport/plans-revealed-for-new-and-upgraded-rail-lines-in-cork-limerick-and-waterford-ba79d6d7

CatInABox

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sunday Business Post reports WRC reviews rule out reopening. I am not subscribed so cannot see full article.

https://www.businesspost.ie/transport/plans-revealed-for-new-and-upgraded-rail-lines-in-cork-limerick-and-waterford-ba79d6d7

Shocked, Shocked, etc!

Here's some of the WRC part of the article:

Meanwhile, two reviews of the long abandoned Western Rail Corridor line from Athenry in Galway to Claremorris in Mayo will be published by Ryan in the new year.

He confirmed that both reports – one from EY and the other from JASPARS – recommended against reopening the line for passenger services.

“The report from EY comes back and what it says is, the numbers who would likely use it from Claremorris and Tuam into Galway is relatively small. If you are going from Claremorris or Tuam to Galway, going to Athenry (station) is the long way round. You are far quicker getting a bus into Galway. So the train service wouldn’t have a big advantage and the numbers would likely be very small,” he said.

Campaigners who wanted to turn the abandoned rail line into a greenway had hoped the publication of the two reports would help them advance their plans. However, Ryan said he believed there was potential for the Western Rail Corridor to be used to ship freight all the way to Foynes port, if the abundant wind energy off the north-west coast attracted new industry there to use that power.

So basically, it states the blindingly obvious.

Even though he talks about reopening it for freight, it seems that even that is more wishful than anything else. It's to be looked at as part of an all island rail review, to which even he acknowledges: “I know everyone will say, ‘Jaysus, another bloody rail review’, but I think it’s asking the right question, which is the wider question,” he said.

eastwest

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sunday Business Post reports WRC reviews rule out reopening. I am not subscribed so cannot see full article.

https://www.businesspost.ie/transport/plans-revealed-for-new-and-upgraded-rail-lines-in-cork-limerick-and-waterford-ba79d6d7

Short version, both rail reports found no case for building a railway north of athenry for passenger traffic. However, as a sop to three WOT TDs who have his head annoyed in the corridors, he will commission another report of freight traffic for heavy industry in mayo. This might mean looking at the freight option in 10 or 20 years, when it won't be his problem. Anyway, it will shut up the three hecklers and there will be no need to spend any money in east galway or mayo.

Isambard

eastwest wrote: »

Short version, both rail reports found no case for building a railway north of athenry for passenger traffic. However, as a sop to three WOT TDs who have his head annoyed in the corridors, he will commission another report of freight traffic for heavy industry in mayo. This might mean looking at the freight option in 10 or 20 years, when it won't be his problem. Anyway, it will shut up the three hecklers and there will be no need to spend any money in east galway or mayo.

but presumably the end result is no Greenway for the foreseeable future.

Pete_Cavan

eastwest wrote: »

Short version, both rail reports found no case for building a railway north of athenry for passenger traffic. However, as a sop to three WOT TDs who have his head annoyed in the corridors, he will commission another report of freight traffic for heavy industry in mayo. This might mean looking at the freight option in 10 or 20 years, when it won't be his problem. Anyway, it will shut up the three hecklers and there will be no need to spend any money in east galway or mayo.

Wasn't the JASPARS report into freight potential and was commissioned when the first report didn't return the desired findings? It must have found that even adding it to the mix wont make WRC viable (more money well spent!).

The new report would appear to look at the whole island network, would this be related to the potential for HSR to be examined as part of the agreement to get everyone to return to Stormont? A report looking at HSR would be a waste of money so maybe it is going to be broader than that. Rather than calling time on the WRC, Ryan is just pushing it out to another wider report. When this report comes to the same conclusions for WRC, expect him to say we need another report looking at Europe as well. That right question will just keep changing so he never has to give a definitive answer.

eastwest

Isambard wrote: »

but presumably the end result is no Greenway for the foreseeable future.

Yes, no anything between athenry and claremorris, except for a 'live horse, and you'll get grass' bit of can kicking with a 20 year horizon. Greenway alluded to on the rest, the bit between claremorris and collooney.
However only the sligo section is certain on the bit north of claremorris. West on track appear able to continue to block development on the mayo section north of claremorris.
To give credit where it's due, the wot lobby has successfully continued its policy of deflecting all investment away from that asset. In 20 years time, when it has disappeared into the undergrowth, it will be interesting to see what their real strategy was.

marno21

The rest of the article mentions Ryan wanting a rail link to Shannon Airport and a suburban rail line in Limerick along the Foynes line out to Adare. Meanwhile he wants the Cork Luas to initially be a BRT later upgraded to Luas.

Not a whole pile of consistency in the application of logic there I'm afraid.

Del.Monte

Yes, and Ernst & Young - sorry E.Y - are such a credible company to carry out such a report, I wouldn't trust them to make me a cup of tea.



https://www.wsj.com/articles/string-of-firms-that-imploded-have-something-in-common-ernst-young-audited-them-11602863319


Ernst & Young has been in accounting scandals - Bank of Credit and Commerce International (1991), Informix Corporation (1996), Sybase (1997), Cendant (1998), One.Tel (2001), AOL (2002), HealthSouth Corporation (2003), Chiquita Brands International (2004), Lehman Brothers (2010), Sino-Forest Corporation (2011) and Olympus Corporation (2011).

SEC barred the firm from accepting new clients for six months
In 2004, Ernst & Young was punished for forming highly profitable business with one of its audit clients, PeopleSoft. As a result, the firm was barred by the SEC from accepting any new publicly traded companies as audit clients for six months. ......

Del.Monte

Del.Monte wrote: »

Yes, and Ernst & Young - sorry E.Y - are such a credible company to carry out such a report, I wouldn't trust them to make me a cup of tea.



https://www.wsj.com/articles/string-of-firms-that-imploded-have-something-in-common-ernst-young-audited-them-11602863319


Ernst & Young has been in accounting scandals - Bank of Credit and Commerce International (1991), Informix Corporation (1996), Sybase (1997), Cendant (1998), One.Tel (2001), AOL (2002), HealthSouth Corporation (2003), Chiquita Brands International (2004), Lehman Brothers (2010), Sino-Forest Corporation (2011) and Olympus Corporation (2011).

SEC barred the firm from accepting new clients for six months
In 2004, Ernst & Young was punished for forming highly profitable business with one of its audit clients, PeopleSoft. As a result, the firm was barred by the SEC from accepting any new publicly traded companies as audit clients for six months. ......

Jaysus, you're really reaching now

CatInABox

Del.Monte wrote: »

Yes, and Ernst & Young - sorry E.Y - are such a credible company to carry out such a report, I wouldn't trust them to make me a cup of tea.

Do you have a similar problem with Jaspers, who also found that reopening the line was pointless?

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

The rest of the article mentions Ryan wanting a rail link to Shannon Airport and a suburban rail line in Limerick along the Foynes line out to Adare. Meanwhile he wants the Cork Luas to initially be a BRT later upgraded to Luas.

Not a whole pile of consistency in the application of logic there I'm afraid.

As somebody said on twitter, he's talking about building a line for freight to serve heavy industry that may locate in ballina in a couple of decades because they'll go there for the power from the windfarms. It seems to have escaped him that power can be transmitted to where it's needed, you don't have to build factories beside power stations, or indeed windfarms. The fact that you need access to the national grid anyway for whenever the wind isn't blowing across your local windfarm appears equally lost on him, a worrying notion since he's supposd to be the minister for energy. Logic? Not much!

eastwest

eastwest wrote: »

As somebody said on twitter, he's talking about building a line for freight to serve heavy industry that may locate in ballina in a couple of decades because they'll go there for the power from the windfarms. It seems to have escaped him that power can be transmitted to where it's needed, you don't have to build factories beside power stations, or indeed windfarms. The fact that you need access to the national grid anyway for whenever the wind isn't blowing across your local windfarm appears equally lost on him, a worrying notion since he's supposd to be the minister for energy. Logic? Not much!

My reading of it is if the Northwest becomes a major energy hub the industry that supports that (engineering and maintenance, i guess potentially manufacture of turbines etc) could be based in the Northwest and would benefit from the rail line. It's not necessarily saying wind-energy will lead to non-related industry getting built there.

eastwest

CatInABox wrote: »

Do you have a similar problem with Jaspers, who also found that reopening the line was pointless?

Or with the WDC report on rail freight, which found no need for additional capacity.

eastwest

Deleted User wrote: »

My reading of it is if the Northwest becomes a major energy hub the industry that supports that (engineering and maintenance, i guess potentially manufacture of turbines etc) could be based in the Northwest and would benefit from the rail line. It's not necessarily saying wind-energy will lead to non-related industry getting built there.

He said the same thing in the Dail in September, it was related to finding a replacement for the Asahi factory in Ballina. He was very much talking about heavy industry that required clean water and power, he was talking about a similar type plant to Asahi.
It's not going to happen, obviously. Heavy industry won't locate to mayo where there is no big pool of skilled labour and where even the minimum wage is still higher than anything paid to workers in China or Indonesia or Vietnam.
The notion that a major factory would locate in Ballina because it is beside a windfarm is so daft as to be unworthy of comment. Most people understand the concept of a national grid, that a plant doesn't just plug into a wind turbine and stop working when the wind dies down. They may well get their incinerator/'power plant' in Ballina some time in the distant future but there is no way that any cabinet will approve a plan to build a dedicated freight line to Foynes to carry imported waste to Ballina to fuel it. Remember that the midlands peat stations have closed down because it wasn't acceptable to import biomass/waste to fuel them.

eastwest

eastwest wrote: »

He said the same thing in the Dail in September, it was related to finding a replacement for the Asahi factory in Ballina. He was very much talking about heavy industry that required clean water and power, he was talking about a similar type plant to Asahi.
It's not going to happen, obviously. Heavy industry won't locate to mayo where there is no big pool of skilled labour and where even the minimum wage is still higher than anything paid to workers in China or Indonesia or Vietnam.
The notion that a major factory would locate in Ballina because it is beside a windfarm is so daft as to be unworthy of comment. Most people understand the concept of a national grid, that a plant doesn't just plug into a wind turbine and stop working when the wind dies down. They may well get their incinerator/'power plant' in Ballina some time in the distant future but there is no way that any cabinet will approve a plan to build a dedicated freight line to Foynes to carry imported waste to Ballina to fuel it. Remember that the midlands peat stations have closed down because it wasn't acceptable to import biomass/waste to fuel them.

The Northwest is an industrial black-spot alright, the question needs to be do we accept that is how it must be or do we try and develop infrastructure to allow the region grow. I don't think rail will ever be a key part of that btw, just think it's worth having a conversation about proper regional development in Ireland. Rail is probably gone for good from that part of Ireland.

If I could (and I appreciate this is off topic so I'll leave it) I'd make every effort to turn both Athlone and Sligo into cities of 100k or so, and if rail is needed to achieve that I'd try and provide it. Otherwise the east/west divide in Ireland is only going to get worse.

eastwest

Deleted User wrote: »

The Northwest is an industrial black-spot alright, the question needs to be do we accept that is how it must be or do we try and develop infrastructure to allow the region grow. I don't think rail will ever be a key part of that btw, just think it's worth having a conversation about proper regional development in Ireland. Rail is probably gone for good from that part of Ireland.

If I could (and I appreciate this is off topic so I'll leave it) I'd make every effort to turn both Athlone and Sligo into cities of 100k or so, and if rail is needed to achieve that I'd try and provide it. Otherwise the east/west divide in Ireland is only going to get worse.

You're dead right of course, development of sligo would lift Ballina, and the N17 is the piece of infrastructure most needed, as well as modernising the sligo-dublin line and the N4.
But the rail lobbyists can't get out if their trenches and see the logic of that. It's rail or nothing on the wrc; even if that means 'nothing,' they'll be very happy. Anything but what they call 'Dublin 4 types on bikes.'

westtip

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sunday Business Post reports WRC reviews rule out reopening. I am not subscribed so cannot see full article.

https://www.businesspost.ie/transport/plans-revealed-for-new-and-upgraded-rail-lines-in-cork-limerick-and-waterford-ba79d6d7

Not sure if this one from the IT has been posted up here yet, funny how they sneak out all this bad news for West on Track over Christmas!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/eamon-ryan-says-case-for-extending-western-rail-corridor-to-claremorris-is-weak-1.4446069?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR0H4ffM0mBrDBYXErQkH8ynpGqVb7fEpGrTK967yfFP-ULQZM2X83jsPso

Del.Monte

westtip wrote: »

Not sure if this one from the IT has been posted up here yet, funny how they sneak out all this bad news for West on Track over Christmas!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/eamon-ryan-says-case-for-extending-western-rail-corridor-to-claremorris-is-weak-1.4446069?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR0H4ffM0mBrDBYXErQkH8ynpGqVb7fEpGrTK967yfFP-ULQZM2X83jsPso

It's almost a carbon copy of the other equally useless article which leave 'all' of us frustrated. Ryan & Co. are too busy virtue signalling on social issues to do anything about transport.

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's almost a carbon copy of the other equally useless article which leave 'all' of us frustrated. Ryan & Co. are too busy virtue signalling on social issues to do anything about transport.

In truth yes it is lazy Christmas journalism - just reprint the press release, but it is very frustrating when a report which was welecomed at the time by West on Track and by Sean Canney who was one of the main driving forces behind cannot just be accepted. There was an agreed process, do the report have it reviewed and accept what it says, now the report doesn't say what the rail advocates wanted to hear we have to be put through another excruciating process.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

funny how they sneak out all this bad news for West on Track over Christmas!

I’m not sure that WOT really see this as bad news. Another review is coming, meaning no go-ahead for the Greenway - I think that they might be happy enough with that.

mayo.mick

How many reports is that now, that says the closed railway is not viable? How many more reports are needed? How much taxpayers money has now been spent in total, on all these reports? I think prime time investigates needs to have a look at this??

eastwest

mayo.mick wrote: »

How many reports is that now, that says the closed railway is not viable? How many more reports are needed? How much taxpayers money has now been spent in total, on all these reports? I think prime time investigates needs to have a look at this??

They don't actually need another report. The Western Development Commission already carried out an exercise where they engaged consultants to look at whether there was a need for a second freight line for Mayo, but they found no case for one. So the government and the Minister already have the information.
If you look at the Dail transcript for September 24th, it becomes clearer. Deputies Dara Calleary, Eamon O'Cuiv and Sean Canney comprised the west on track lobby in the chamber, and sinn fein had their own presence, as part of a set piece to read more of their nonsense into the record. It was clear that WOT had already met the minister, and he was under pressure to talk up the wrc, even though he knew at that stage that the two rail reports found against it. He came out with some really off the wall stuff, including a wish that another Asahi could be opened in Ballina and might need a line to Foynes!
They are constantly pressuring Ryan, and his not strong enough to tell them to eff off. So, despite already having a freight report, and despite two rail reports making a nonsense of the whole rail project, he throws them a sop of yet another report to keep them off his back. It's an extreme form of can-kicking.
That's all the west is going to get, reports. Nor greenway, definitely no railway, but he's giving western TDs what they want, more reports.

ezstreet5

Personally, I want to see the report released. A few filtered quotes from the Executive Summary won't change anyone's mind, nor mine. Other folk here were primed to cry Fudge! if the conclusions disagreed with their view (and I reserve the same right). One would think that a €500k report would be quite extensive, and perhaps even authoritative. So let's see it...the methodology, assumptions, cost calculations...the whole thing! The questions I will be asking are:

• Was proper consideration given to Tuam-Galway bus and private vehicle commuters, or was the M17/M6 route considered an outcompeting solution prohibiting mode-shift?
  
• To what degree was the Galway Outer City Bypass considered to be a realized project favoring vehicular transport?
  
• To what degree was BusConnects relied upon, including expanded bus lanes on the Dublin Road from Galway?
  
• Were regional population and job growth forecasts properly considered, including transit oriented development opportunities in Tuan, Athenry, and Galway?
  
• Was proper consideration given to the benefits of restoring Tuam Station as a multi-modal transit facility?
  
• Was proper consideration give to benefits to the elderly and disabled?
  
• Were environmental concerns properly considered, including the potential for electrification or battery-electric rolling stock?
  
• Are the cost estimates believable, and were they arrived at using industry-accepted methodology (or were they inflated to avoid the potential embarrassment of a cost overrun)?
  
• Does the report comment on the need for an expanded scope (i.e., whether including Claremorris to Collooney and perhaps beyond, a level of freight and/or excursion trains, or a side-by-side greenway would change the conclusion)?
  
• Does the overall level of effort, insight, and quality of the report warrant the €500k price tag?

These are the questions I will be asking as I read it. Hopefully soon.

Del.Monte

A report con the line could have been done by any half decent Irish University and the €450,000 saved used for something worthwhile other than funding some overpaid suits in EY.

Pete_Cavan

Del.Monte wrote: »

A report con the line could have been done by any half decent Irish University and the €450,000 saved used for something worthwhile other than funding some overpaid suits in EY.

And had any half decent Irish University done the report for €50k and inevitably found against reinstating the railway, you'd be saying the report isn't worth the paper it's printed on and they should have gotten a proper consultant to do it (or even two, as has been done).