Fighter jets

Lord Maguire

I was reading the other day about the RAF and how they will soon take delivery of their first batch of F-35 Lightning II multirole fighter jets. I must say, they are quite an impressive of kit.

I have the price list here:


F-35A - conventional takeoff and landing - $94.6M

F-35B - short takeoff and vertical landing - $122.8M

The F-35C is carrier-based and not relevant to my point.


We are a neutral country and I respect that fact, but Switzerland for example, a famously neutral state, have modern fighter jets for air defence purposes. Why don't we?


We could get Eurofighters, the above mentioned F-35 and others, we are spoiled for choice.

I know that we would only use them in combat if the inevitable Loyalist conflict arises in NI should a border poll pass, but it is good to have them for defence. Our Air Corps is a joke.

Costly - maybe.

Worth it - I think yes.

What are your thoughts on this?

Waste of money. Switzerland is situated smack bang in the middle of major powers and has been like that since the time of the Romans.

namenotavailablE

There is a similar thread on this discussion point here in the 'Military' forum.

Lord Maguire

Deleted User wrote: »

Waste of money. Switzerland is situated smack bang in the middle of major powers and has been like that since the time of the Romans.

You could say the same about us and the Brits.

Lord Maguire

Lord Maguire wrote: »

You could say the same. about us and the Brits.

Not to the same extent at all.

Lord Maguire

We could get drones?

Needles73

So how many would we buy ? To keep one available at all times you would need at least 2 or 3. Then you'd need probably 4 trained pilots. Maintenance would primarily need to be external vendors as wouldn't be possible to have that expertise in Ireland for a few modern jets.
Anyways complete pie in the sky fantasy nonsense for jets but Drones are something I'd agree with

Pac1Man

Brits look after us. It's in their interest strategically.

Also, nobody knows we're here. We'll be grand.

Lord Maguire

Needles73 wrote: »

So how many would we buy ? To keep one available at all times you would need at least 2 or 3. Then you'd need probably 4 trained pilots. Maintenance would primarily need to be external vendors as wouldn't be possible to have that expertise in Ireland for a few modern jets.
Anyways complete pie in the sky fantasy nonsense.

20 Typhoons, 10 F-35A/Bs and some drones.

That's it.

Needles73

Lord Maguire wrote: »

20 Typhoons, 10 F-35A/Bs and some drones.

That's it.

I suppose we could get them on PCP......are you aged 12 ?

Lord Maguire

Lord Maguire wrote: »

20 Typhoons, 10 F-35A/Bs and some drones.

That's it.

Needles73 wrote: »

I suppose we could get them on PCP......are you aged 12 ?

Some people say it's peanuts, others hate the idea, it is just a thought is all.

gifted

Ryanair looked at it but said no......something about the oul fighter pilots loading their own missiles or stuff like that....and dealing with the fighter pilot union...

s7ryf3925pivug

The RAF can be relied upon to police our skies better than we would be able to without massive unnecessary investment. This is not just about goodwill, it is about their own security.

In the event of a clear active threat, the US Air Force could also be expected to deploy planes here, especially since we have provided a base for them.

Lord Maguire

Virginia Mushy Shinbone wrote: »

The RAF can be relied upon to police our skies better than we would be able to without massive unnecessary investment. This is not just about goodwill, it is about their own security.

In the event of a clear active threat, the US Air Force could also be expected to deploy planes here, especially since we have provided a base for them.

Ahem, the point in the OP about the 6 counties?

Ulysses Gaze

The F35 still does not even work properly and the program has cost almost $1 trillion. It will be the biggest White Elephant in the history of military expenditure.

The Sukhoi Su-57, Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31 will turn out to better and cheaper planes.

Timberrrrrrrr

Lord Maguire wrote: »

I was reading the other day about the RAF and how they will soon take delivery of their first batch of F-35 Lightning II multirole fighter jets. I must say, they are quite an impressive of kit.

I have the price list here:


F-35A - conventional takeoff and landing - $94.6M

F-35B - short takeoff and vertical landing - $122.8M

The F-35C is carrier-based and not relevant to my point.


We are a neutral country and I respect that fact, but Switzerland for example, a famously neutral state, have modern fighter jets for air defence purposes. Why don't we?


We could get Eurofighters, the above mentioned F-35 and others, we are spoiled for choice.

I know that we would only use them in combat if the inevitable Loyalist conflict arises in NI should a border poll pass, but it is good to have them for defence. Our Air Corps is a joke.

Costly - maybe.

Worth it - I think yes.

What are your thoughts on this?

I think the Irish army would be well capable of repelling a few auld lads in flat caps and shotguns without the need arising for fast jets to be strafing the countryside and firing missiles at the cost of hundreds of millions.

Lord Maguire

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The F35 still does not even work properly and the program has cost almost $1 trillion. It will be the biggest White Elephant in the history of military expenditure.

The Sukhoi Su-57, Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31 will turn out to better and cheaper planes.

The F-35 is western.

BarleySweets

How naive are you? You really think a decision like that depends on the unit cost? Like we ring up whoever and go, “hey, gimme 10 of them there fancy planes ye’re hoarding all to yourself, boss! €94.2million each? Here’s €942million.”


You’ve now bought 10 pieces of kit. You’ve now got to run them for the next 30 years too. So you’re the guts of a billion in the hole before you’ve begun and you think you’re going to get support from the people of Ireland to spend ten times that over the next 40 years to keep them airworthy? Where are we getting that cash from? And what justification do you have for us to spend that cash?

Where do you get 4-5 trained F35 pilots (easily need this amount to have a standing reaction force available 24/7 to account for illnesses & holidays, unless you don’t care about having a 24/7 capability, along with having pilots undergo training/upskill/refresher courses)? Even 100 would be stretching it: 900 flight hours is the annual flight limit for civilian pilots but supersonic pilots are surely held to stricter standards.

Also where do you house them? Ireland has precisely one large scale military aerodrome. So you’re either building massive infrastructure there or on a new site. Not just any auld infrastructure either. Massive, state of the art, top dollar F35 infrastructure that’ll have to be staffed and maintained for the next 40 years too!

Where will the pilots train? Ireland doesn’t have much, if any, vacant space compared to most other fighter jet owning countries so that means they’ll have to deal with constant complaints about sonic booms and claims for broken windows etc.

And even if they get some action, what then? Our 10 planes are not scaring off any invaders, who’ll likely have 100’s to throw at us. Even if we had 100, we’d be sitting ducks before we’ve fired a shot at them because our population spread is kind of crazy. In fact, forget the invasion, invaders wouldn’t even have to send in a bombing fleet to soften us up: a barrage of cruise missiles to Dublin, Cork, Baldonnel & maybe Shannon and the various barracks’s around the nation and that is it pal. Job done, the invaders can pretty much stroll right up O’Connel St with little effort to clear out the rest of the Irish Government’s defenses.

And even if we get the best case scenario, no invasions! For all of these pilots, maintenance & admin staff, you’ve got to pay them for the next 40 years plus their massive pensions. And for what? No real military benefits but plane spotters don’t need to go to Wales to hear a big boom?

s7ryf3925pivug

Lord Maguire wrote: »

Ahem, the point in the OP about the 6 counties?

You think we should perform air strikes against NI..? LOL

Lord Maguire

Lord Maguire wrote: »

Ahem, the point in the OP about the 6 counties?

Point? Hardly.

Lord Maguire

BarleySweets wrote: »

How naive are you? You really think a decision like that depends on the unit cost? Like we ring up whoever and go, “hey, gimme 10 of them there fancy planes ye’re hoarding all to yourself, boss! €94.2million each? Here’s €942million.”


You’ve now bought 10 pieces of kit. You’ve now got to run them for the next 30 years too. So you’re the guts of a billion in the hole before you’ve begun and you think you’re going to get support from the people of Ireland to spend ten times that over the next 30 years to keep them airworthy? Where are we getting that cash from? And what justification do you have for us to spend that cash?

Where do you get 4-5 trained F35 pilots (easily need this amount to have a standing reaction force available 24/7 to account for illnesses & holidays, unless you don’t care about having a 24/7 capability, along with having pilots undergo training/upskill/refresher courses)? Even 100 would be stretching it: 900 flight hours is the annual flight limit for civilian pilots but supersonic pilots are surely held to stricter standards.

Also where do you house them? Ireland has precisely one large scale military aerodrome. So you’re either building massive infrastructure there or on a new site. Not just any auld infrastructure either. Massive, state of the art, top dollar F35 infrastructure that’ll have to be staffed and maintained for the next 40 years too!

Where will the pilots train? Ireland doesn’t have much, if any, vacant space compared to most other fighter jet owning countries so that means they’ll have to deal with constant complaints about sonic booms and claims for broken windows etc.

And even if they get some action, what then? Our 10 planes are not scaring off any invaders, who’ll likely have 100’s to throw at us. Even if we had 100, we’d be sitting ducks before we’ve fired a shot at them because our population spread is kind of crazy. In fact, forget the invasion, invaders wouldn’t even have to send in a bombing fleet to soften us up: a barrage of cruise missiles to Dublin, Cork, Baldonnel & maybe Shannon and the various barracks’s around the nation and that is it pal. Job done, the invaders can pretty much stroll right up O’Connel St with little effort to clear out the rest of the Irish Government’s defenses.

And even if we get the best case scenario, no invasions! For all of these pilots, maintenance & admin staff, you’ve got to pay them for the next 40 years plus their massive pensions. And for what? No real military benefits but plane spotters don’t need to go to Wales to hear a big boom?

Like I said, a unionst uprising in NI should there be a united Ireland.

BarleySweets

Lord Maguire wrote: »

Like I said, a unionst uprising in NI should there be a united Ireland.

What good do you think F35s would do against an uprising in NI should there be a united Ireland?

s7ryf3925pivug

Lord Maguire wrote: »

Like I said, a unionst uprising in NI should there be a united Ireland.

Airstrikes versus urban guerila warfare inside your own country is not a good idea though is it?

Lord Maguire

Lord Maguire wrote: »

We are a neutral country and I respect that fact, but Switzerland for example, a famously neutral state, have modern fighter jets for air defence purposes. Why don't we?
...
I know that we would only use them in combat if the inevitable Loyalist conflict arises in NI should a border poll pass, but it is good to have them for defence. Our Air Corps is a joke

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swiss-air-force-ethiopian-airlines-hijacking-office-hours
Even the Swiss struggle to keep jets in the air - it is a Monday to Friday, 9 to 5 air force now.

If there is trouble in a future united Ireland I hope we have the sense to ask the UN for help rather than try to sort it ourselves.

I'm not sure what help a supersonic jet would be against a lad with a petrol bomb.

ted1

Lord Maguire wrote: »

I was reading the other day about the RAF and how they will soon take delivery of their first batch of F-35 Lightning II multirole fighter jets. I must say, they are quite an impressive of kit.

I have the price list here:


F-35A - conventional takeoff and landing - $94.6M

F-35B - short takeoff and vertical landing - $122.8M

The F-35C is carrier-based and not relevant to my point.


We are a neutral country and I respect that fact, but Switzerland for example, a famously neutral state, have modern fighter jets for air defence purposes. Why don't we?


We could get Eurofighters, the above mentioned F-35 and others, we are spoiled for choice.

I know that we would only use them in combat if the inevitable Loyalist conflict arises in NI should a border poll pass, but it is good to have them for defence. Our Air Corps is a joke.

Costly - maybe.

Worth it - I think yes.

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheap to buy, expensive to run and maintain.
Also fighters are obsolete, UAV is where it’s at

TomOnBoard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swiss-air-force-ethiopian-airlines-hijacking-office-hours

I'm not sure what help a supersonic jet would be against a lad with a petrol bomb.

As the jet breaks throgh the sound barrier, it creates a pressure wave that would hit and break the bottle of petrol and it would splash all over the bomb's holder resulting in one less petrol bomber without firing a single missile.... Simple!! ;-)

ectoraige

namenotavailabl wrote: »

There is a similar thread on this discussion point here in the 'Military' forum.

I'll try to summarise the best points from that thread.

The main need we would have would be to have quick reaction jets capable of intercepting aircraft entering our airspace. Traditionally we've assumed Britain can do this for us if required, but with Brexit, the EU will be losing this capability, and it may not be something we can rely on.

Realistically to do this you'd 10-12 aircraft. Even if all you want is a pair of jets on standby, you'd need another two to provide cover when the first two return to allow for post-flight maintenance. Then, you would need another couple of spare aircraft to allow for larger maintenance windows. Next, you'd need some available for training, both to qualify new pilots, and to maintain skills of your pilots who probably will not have any flight time during their on-duty periods.

Next you have to maintain the aircraft which will require facilities that we don't have. So you will need to build a large support infrastructure. You'll also need lots of pilots to cover for leave, medical absence, and to allow flight hours to maintain skills. Our air corps doesn't have enough pilots at present to provide night-time top-cover for SAR operations.


Also, before you intercept, you have to have something to intercept. Outside of civil air control, Ireland has very little capabilities in terms of long-range radar. We woud need to be build up an infrastructure there to allow us to detect approaching aircraft.

For me, the most realistic way to achieve this would be to work out a deal with our EU Nordic Battlegroup colleagues in Sweden and have them operate a squadron of Gripens based out of Sligo. The existing airfield points directly out to sea minimising noise pollution, and there's a SAR base there already should any pilots encounter difficulties and have to ditch. As part of the deal Irish pilots and maintenance crews would be trained up so we could eventually have the capabilities to take over operations ourselves. The Gripen would really cover all our needs, at a lower cost than many other suggested alternatives.

We'd still have to invest a lot in our detection capabilites, and pilots would have to be well paid to keep them from drifting into commercial piloting jobs.

Finally, this topic comes up every now and then, provoking plenty of debate, but it's notable that you've probably never once heard a politician or public figure mention it. It's simply not on the radar, so don't expect anything to ever happen until it's too late.

Atoms for Peace

A few dodgy lads in balaclavas and parka jackets with a stinger missile is surely more cost effective than an F-35.

JohnCleary

Does that include VRT?

Mrcaramelchoc

What about a nice shiny new health system instead.

TomOnBoard

gifted wrote: »

Ryanair looked at it but said no......something about the oul fighter pilots loading their own missiles or stuff like that....and dealing with the fighter pilot union...

I think they also said that O'Leary wanted no competition from drones. "If there's any droning to be done around here, I'm your man", he said.

Lord Maguire

Lord Maguire wrote: »

Like I said, a unionst uprising in NI should there be a united Ireland.

Mods, are we allowed to call re-reg trolls complete and utter retards?

This is a clear case where arguing with the poster's posts is waste of time.

endacl

Lord Maguire wrote: »

We could get drones?

We could get them in Argos or Smyth's.

_Kaiser_

Yet another thinly disguised United Ireland nationalist fantasy thread.. Though with an interesting carpet bombing twist! :rolleyes:

Never mind the huge cost (as others have pointed out above) of buying, maintaining and providing pilots and staff for fighter jets, where exactly do you think we'll get the money to support what is currently NI if indeed unification did come to pass anytime soon?

Maybe you've forgotten the massive amount of debt this country is saddled with, or the huge problems we have with fundamental services of a functioning society - healthcare, housing, cost of living, infrastructure and regional development etc etc

Maybe you've forgotten the huge inefficiencies within our public and civil service as it is without taking on that of NI, which happens to be its biggest employer.

I could go on but the bottom line is this... I'm sure someday a United Ireland will happen, and hopefully it'll be at a time when both communities up there have accepted the idea and it can happen peacefully, but we have more than enough problems with the country we have now without looking to actively invite more.

Blazer

The F35 is muck anyway. It’s been a disaster of a plane since day 1.
A few F22s is where it truly lies but we couldn’t afford them and there’s no way the US will sell them.
So maybe a few cessna’s with a few of the lads hanging out the windows pointing guns.

Bob24

Lord Maguire wrote: »

The F-35 is western.

Dassault Rafale, although it would probably have been easier to get a good price a few years ago when they were struggling to export it and the French army was having to top-up the orders.

Or Gripen, not as nice but even cheaper.

silverharp

even switzerland has twice the population of Ireland, we should be thinking more along the lines of Iceland

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure what help a supersonic jet would be against a lad with a petrol bomb.

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

A few dodgy lads in balaclavas and parka jackets with a stinger missile is surely more cost effective than an F-35.

Exactly. Modern warfare has changed radically. There are no face to face armies lined up against each other battles any more, so fighter jets are as much an ego sabre rattling show of strength than strategically useful. And a bloody expensive one. What Ireland could do and far more cheaply with it is to turn the army into a guerrilla based military outfit. Do a Michael Collins on it. Make it so costly of any enemy resources of money and men to keep a presence here. The aforementioned Swiss operate this kinda thing where a large chunk of the population is trained and armed.

SEPT 23 1989

Why would we own one when we can ring the RAF and have one over Dublin City centre in less than eight minutes

Beta Ray Bill

Blazer wrote: »

The F35 is muck anyway. It’s been a disaster of a plane since day 1.
A few F22s is where it truly lies but we couldn’t afford them and there’s no way the US will sell them.
So maybe a few cessna’s with a few of the lads hanging out the windows pointing guns.

Program is now "to big to fail" projected cost in todays money is $1.5 Trillion Dollars
$1,500,000,000,000 <= that's a lot of 0's
Even for the US economy that's a heavy bill.

To put that cost into perspective, the Gerald Ford Carrier program is going to cost $37.3 Billion with each unit (of which there will be 10) costing about $13 Billion
So that's a total of about $167 Billion or:
$167,000,000,000

Big difference.

F-22 is at the moment the best active fighter plane in the world
But that will change when China and Russia unveil their 5th/6th gen figthers
Even at that the newer planes are extremely expensive for what they are.
Even the US is struggling to justify the cost.
The plan was to replace the Ageing F-15's of which there were nearly 600 with F-22's
In the end the cost was to high and the US went with about 200 F-22's and upgraded the older F-15's

Same will happen with the F-35, designed to replace the F-16 but won't because of the cost. F-16 for it's time was one of the best fighter planes ever made.

In relation to the question do we need them?
EHHHHH No!
We are a small country and we couldn't afford to run those aircraft.
We should be spending more on our Navy though. We have a huge amount of sea to patrol but we have very few ships.

Also with the advent of Railguns and Laser weaponry Air Superiority is not going to matter as much in 20/30 years. Aircraft will just need to be "in line of sight/in view" to be shot down. There are no countermeasures for these kinds of weapons. Israel has laser defense installations in testing capable of hitting inbound artillery shells.
There will be a shift to Land and Sea based weaponry with the Air Role being left for Drones.

biko

We don't need fighter jets, we just need a lot of SAMs

Wanderer78

biko wrote:

We don't need fighter jets, we just need a lot of SAMs

Maybe we should build a few houses and fund our health services more so than buy a few flying death machines?

Cookie_Monster

Like the way the motor industry is going, we should just rent them when we need them no need for all the costs of ownership, just ring the Brits if required and pay by the hour

Hande hoche!

Either a few glorified trainers something like a L-39 or alternatively a few SAMs, as above.

Grayson

Virginia Mushy Shinbone wrote: »

Airstrikes versus urban guerila warfare inside your own country is not a good idea though is it?

It's a bit of a laugh if sh1t gets boring.

Seriously, the planes we have are grand. They're only used for patrolling looking for fishing boats and drug smugglers We could buy something fancy but we'd have no use for them.

Turbo props drop bombs on unionists just as well as fighter jets

Oink

Yeah we get a few jets and then what.

While they’re flying around we suddenly discover 20 heavily armed tourists in the Dail which we didn’t even know were in the country. The internet and all comms are down for some reason, half the government has been poisoned, and the russkis are talking about cruise missiles. Oops.

Oink

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Maybe we should build a few houses and fund our health services more so than buy a few flying death machines?

Are you some kind of communist or something?

ohnonotgmail

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The F35 still does not even work properly and the program has cost almost $1 trillion. It will be the biggest White Elephant in the history of military expenditure.

The Sukhoi Su-57, Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31 will turn out to better and cheaper planes.

The israelis have already used theirs in combat.

Wanderer78

Oink wrote: »

Are you some kind of communist or something?

yes comrade

Hande hoche!

Oink wrote: »

Yeah we get a few jets and then what.

While they’re flying around we suddenly discover 20 heavily armed tourists in the Dail which we didn’t even know were in the country. The internet and all comms are down for some reason, half the government has been poisoned, and the russkis are talking about cruise missiles. Oops.

The air shows, think of the air shows.

Grayson

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes comrade

It's Da, not yes, you idiot. We'll never infiltrate these commies if you keep making stupid mistakes.