The Healy Raes

TaurenDruid

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Only in your mind, think about it a bit more.

Thought about it a bit more.

"Can you fix the health service so more operations are carried out, for everyone's benefit."

versus

"Can you get Mary an operation sooner, cos she's my constituent?"

Mary is 100th on the list and they do 5 of Mary's type of operation a day, so - after all the bureaucracy and waste of resources involved in writing to consultants and hospital management results in a decision from the consultant that she can't be arsed dealing with more H-R post, it's slowing down her work, fine, move Mary up to 1st on the list. There are another 9 H-R letters in, too. They all get bumped up.

Paddy-Joe, who would never dream of skipping his turn, was due to get his operation on the 1st of the month. He gets a letter saying his letter has been postponed to the 3rd.

Multiply out by all the letters and phone calls and PQs Meehawl and Danny are writing and it's not a day or two, it's months.

Yeah, not changing my mind...

MayoAreMagic

Rows Grower wrote: »

All politics is local.

That's something that Mehall and Leo learned at the last election when they barely scraped in on the 5th and 6th count.

It is a nice quip that gets used a lot, but im not sure it's actually true. Obviously if you get the taoiseach role, you have more to consider than potholes in your town.
If there was a vote tomorrow, would Leo fare better or worse? We both know the answer is better, and that is down to actions carried out on a national scale, so no, all politics are not local.

What is true is that it is possible to play the system by rabidly and unashamedly directing national funds to your own neck of the woods. Then, if you are really and truely brazen, you can direct the works to your own companies and actually keep the lions share of the money yourself.
Personally I wouldnt call that politics, Id call it a scam.

Rows Grower

Edgware wrote: »

20000 votes for Martin and his colleague is hardly scraping in and delivered 2 seats and ultimately Taoiseach. The fishwife refused to have a running mate in case she lost the poll topper headline

Its disingenuous to give Mehall credit for Micheal McGraths votes and include them as votes of support for Mehall which they clearly were not.

He scraped in on the sixth count with the full financial support and backing of one of the biggest political parties in the state of which he was leader.

Rows Grower

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It is a nice quip that gets used a lot, but im not sure it's actually true. Obviously if you get the taoiseach role, you have more to consider than potholes in your town.
If there was a vote tomorrow, would Leo fare better or worse? We both know the answer is better, and that is down to actions carried out on a national scale, so no, all politics are not local.

What is true is that it is possible to play the system by rabidly and unashamedly directing national funds to your own neck of the woods. Then, if you are really and truely brazen, you can direct the works to your own companies and actually keep the lions share of the money yourself.
Personally I wouldnt call that politics, Id call it a scam.

You can call it what you want, that doesn't mean you're right.

A scam is an illegal activity and if you have any evidence of one being operated by any politician you should report it.

SlowBlowin

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Thought about it a bit more.

"Can you fix the health service so more operations are carried out, for everyone's benefit."

versus

"Can you get Mary an operation sooner, cos she's my constituent?"

Mary is 100th on the list and they do 5 of Mary's type of operation a day, so - after all the bureaucracy and waste of resources involved in writing to consultants and hospital management results in a decision from the consultant that she can't be arsed dealing with more H-R post, it's slowing down her work, fine, move Mary up to 1st on the list. There are another 9 H-R letters in, too. They all get bumped up.

Paddy-Joe, who would never dream of skipping his turn, was due to get his operation on the 1st of the month. He gets a letter saying his letter has been postponed to the 3rd.

Multiply out by all the letters and phone calls and PQs Meehawl and Danny are writing and it's not a day or two, it's months.

Yeah, not changing my mind...

What a load of pedantic bollox.

If you complain about something is it not logical to make reference to the actual data that is causing the issue ?

If your mum bought a new Nissan car and the MPG was really bad, would you go in the dealership and say "I think Nissan should improve the MPG of their cars" or would you say "My mum bought a car from you and its getting really bad MPG, whats going on" ?

You dont seem to grasp that by drawing attention to real world cases, in bulk, in front of cameras, MHR is making more of a point than asking a simple question, not backed up by real information.

Thats fine, thats just the way you think, but I would always make a point backed up by real world data, it has more impact and relevance.

I think it bizarre that people criticise MHR for asking the question and quoting the actual case. Your preferred route would be to generalise the question and not quote specifics ??? How is that better ???

ExMachina1000

I would prefer to have the Healy raes representing my interests than the useless parasites in my area.

SlowBlowin

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Thought about it a bit more.

"Can you fix the health service so more operations are carried out, for everyone's benefit."

versus

"Can you get Mary an operation sooner, cos she's my constituent?"

Mary is 100th on the list and they do 5 of Mary's type of operation a day, so - after all the bureaucracy and waste of resources involved in writing to consultants and hospital management results in a decision from the consultant that she can't be arsed dealing with more H-R post, it's slowing down her work, fine, move Mary up to 1st on the list. There are another 9 H-R letters in, too. They all get bumped up.

Paddy-Joe, who would never dream of skipping his turn, was due to get his operation on the 1st of the month. He gets a letter saying his letter has been postponed to the 3rd.

Multiply out by all the letters and phone calls and PQs Meehawl and Danny are writing and it's not a day or two, it's months.

Yeah, not changing my mind...

Can you watch this then continue with your argument.

https://www.facebook.com/MHealyRaeTD/videos/279650666630703/

SlowBlowin

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Yeah, not changing my mind...

If you have watched the video can you comment ?

Remember your stance in this argument is that MHR does not ask questions about the performance of the National Health service.

Edgware

Rows Grower wrote: »

Its disingenuous to give Mehall credit for Micheal McGraths votes and include them as votes of support for Mehall which they clearly were not.

He scraped in on the sixth count with the full financial support and backing of one of the biggest political parties in the state of which he was leader.

The idea is to run the number of candidates to maximise your party vote resulting in max seats. S.F. showed their ignorance of the system that they left several seats behind them. The fishwife and more had enough surplus to win extra seats. At least O Broin had the courage to have a running mate and with good vote management got the second seat.
The fishwife was playing best girl in the school yard and wasted her surplus

MayoAreMagic

Rows Grower wrote: »

You can call it what you want, that doesn't mean you're right.

A scam is an illegal activity and if you have any evidence of one being operated by any politician you should report it.

It doesnt mean I am wrong either, so what does your response prove exactly?

A scam is not an illegal activity, it is actually defined as a dishonest scheme. There are plenty scams that are within the remit of the law.

Even if it was illegal, why cant we discuss it here, without my reporting them to the authorities first? That sounds like an attempt to shut down a discussion to be honest about it.

The reality is, they are frauding the system and basically bribing those who can vote them out so that it can continue. While I know politicians need to look after their constituents, the way they are funnelling the funds into their own pockets is a bit of a disgrace and it simply shouldnt be possible. That is a scam, legal or otherwise.

SlowBlowin

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It doesnt mean I am wrong either, so what does your response prove exactly?

A scam is not an illegal activity, it is actually defined as a dishonest scheme. There are plenty scams that are within the remit of the law.

Even if it was illegal, why cant we discuss it here, without my reporting them to the authorities first? That sounds like an attempt to shut down a discussion to be honest about it.

The reality is, they are frauding the system and basically bribing those who can vote them out so that it can continue. While I know politicians need to look after their constituents, the way they are funnelling the funds into their own pockets is a bit of a disgrace and it simply shouldnt be possible. That is a scam, legal or otherwise.

I think the only way to achieve your ideals is to not allow TDs to be involved in any business/organisation that can financially benefit from government policy.

Shefwedfan

Rows Grower wrote: »

You can call it what you want, that doesn't mean you're right.

A scam is an illegal activity and if you have any evidence of one being operated by any politician you should report it.

Yes a scam, like the mileage claim submitted by both Healy Rae with the exact same mileage.

Getting expenses for been at Dail while at a funeral in Kerry

Danny hiding money from tax man for the pub

The road company run by Healy Rae which has been given millions while Kerry CO co got worst rating in Ireland for corruptions.

The list goes on

For all the talk of the great politicians they are, not doing much when they are never in Dail. Scam is the exact phrase I would use

Shefwedfan

So for all the people raving about the Healy Rae. Let’s say every person in Ireland votes in a Healy Rae or equivalent to represent them in the Dail. An independent that does nothing at a national level

So please tell me how is that going to work?

If they all have the same attendance rate as the Healy Rae would we even need a Dail?

Donald Trump

SlowBlowin wrote: »

What a load of pedantic bollox.

If you complain about something is it not logical to make reference to the actual data that is causing the issue ?

If your mum bought a new Nissan car and the MPG was really bad, would you go in the dealership and say "I think Nissan should improve the MPG of their cars" or would you say "My mum bought a car from you and its getting really bad MPG, whats going on" ?

You dont seem to grasp that by drawing attention to real world cases, in bulk, in front of cameras, MHR is making more of a point than asking a simple question, not backed up by real information.

Thats fine, thats just the way you think, but I would always make a point backed up by real world data, it has more impact and relevance.

I think it bizarre that people criticise MHR for asking the question and quoting the actual case. Your preferred route would be to generalise the question and not quote specifics ??? How is that better ???

"The prisoners dilemma" is a simple and easy to understand example in game theory of how individuals acting solely on their own narrow self interest leads them all to having a less optimal outcome than if they actually cooperated.


To put some figures on an example, suppose you can make a decision tomorrow and your other half can also make a decision. Both of you rationally choose what will maximize your return based solely on what decision you control of. You end up in an equilibrium where you get 70 Euro and your other half ends up with 80 Euro.

But suppose you could coordinate and cooperate, then you could both end up with 100 Euro. But you don't and so, by choosing the selfish option to maximize your own outcome, you both end up with less



That is what happens as a result of parish pump politics.

Rows Grower

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It doesnt mean I am wrong either, so what does your response prove exactly?

A scam is not an illegal activity, it is actually defined as a dishonest scheme. There are plenty scams that are within the remit of the law.

Even if it was illegal, why cant we discuss it here, without my reporting them to the authorities first? That sounds like an attempt to shut down a discussion to be honest about it.

The reality is, they are frauding the system and basically bribing those who can vote them out so that it can continue. While I know politicians need to look after their constituents, the way they are funnelling the funds into their own pockets is a bit of a disgrace and it simply shouldnt be possible. That is a scam, legal or otherwise.

Ah c'mere, don't be such a drama queen for the love of God.

There's no one trying to "shut down a discussion", you're making allegations of wrongdoing by people in public office and i'm suggesting if you have any proof then you should report it.

That's an actual discussion, whether you like it or not. Just because people don't agree with your wild allegations doesn't mean they are trying to censor you.

Would ya go away and cop yourself on with your ol' rubbish talk of fraud, bribes and funnelling funds into their own pockets.

Rows Grower

Donald Trump wrote: »

"The prisoners dilemma" is a simple and easy to understand example in game theory of how individuals acting solely on their own narrow self interest leads them all to having a less optimal outcome than if they actually cooperated.


To put some figures on an example, suppose you can make a decision tomorrow and your other half can also make a decision. Both of you rationally choose what will maximize your return based solely on what decision you control of. You end up in an equilibrium where you get 70 Euro and your other half ends up with 80 Euro.

But suppose you could coordinate and cooperate, then you could both end up with 100 Euro. But you don't and so, by choosing the selfish option to maximize your own outcome, you both end up with less



That is what happens as a result of parish pump politics.

What

Are

You

On

About?

SlowBlowin

Donald Trump wrote: »

"The prisoners dilemma" is a simple and easy to understand example in game theory of how individuals acting solely on their own narrow self interest leads them all to having a less optimal outcome than if they actually cooperated.


To put some figures on an example, suppose you can make a decision tomorrow and your other half can also make a decision. Both of you rationally choose what will maximize your return based solely on what decision you control of. You end up in an equilibrium where you get 70 Euro and your other half ends up with 80 Euro.

But suppose you could coordinate and cooperate, then you could both end up with 100 Euro. But you don't and so, by choosing the selfish option to maximize your own outcome, you both end up with less



That is what happens as a result of parish pump politics.

In your analogy I am assuming one of the "prisoners" is MHR, his admin staff, and all his constituents (who attend his clinics).

Do I assume the other prisoner is the rest of the country (minus Kerry), the Dail ?

If this is the analogy, how does the video link I posted earlier fit in with this theory ?

Donald Trump

SlowBlowin wrote: »

In your analogy I am assuming one of the "prisoners" is MHR, his admin staff, and all his constituents (who attend his clinics).

Do I assume the other prisoner is the rest of the country (minus Kerry), the Dail ?

If this is the analogy, how does the video link I posted earlier fit in with this theory ?

Which video? The one about Michael Healy Rae claiming that he is organising for people to go up the North for operations?


That is a national scheme. It is not something that he is doing off his own bat. He might like the local yokels to think he is the one doing it and be eternally grateful to him for "giving" them something that is theirs by right anyway.



My post was in response to someone more or less saying how they'd be glad that MHR was representing them as long as he was going to get them bumped up a list (at the expense of others). If everyone follows that same principle, then you are left with an overall solution which is not optimum for everyone, and possibly not even optimum for anyone.

Donald Trump

Rows Grower wrote: »

What

Are

You

On

About?

Don't worry. I wasn't expecting everyone to understand it. You can read a little bit here if you want.


The example on that page of doping in sport is one that people might be able to relate to a little easier. The idea for that one is that if doping is available in sport, then an athlete trying to gain an advantage will take the drug. But then more and more have to take it in order to try to compete with the dopers. It eventually ends up that all competitors need to take it. Therefore there is no longer any advantage to any competitor....but they are now all taking drugs that could harm them.


Parish-pump politics is the same. Everyone wants their own local fella to look after them. Then because some people are getting skipped up the queue, everyone else has to go to their local fella. But in reality, once everyone is doing it then there is no advantage anymore. You are just now left with a worse system.

MayoAreMagic

Rows Grower wrote: »

Ah c'mere, don't be such a drama queen for the love of God.

There's no one trying to "shut down a discussion", you're making allegations of wrongdoing by people in public office and i'm suggesting if you have any proof then you should report it.

That's an actual discussion, whether you like it or not. Just because people don't agree with your wild allegations doesn't mean they are trying to censor you.

Would ya go away and cop yourself on with your ol' rubbish talk of fraud, bribes and funnelling funds into their own pockets.

Ah here, ah cmere, drame queen, would you go away, go and report it zzzzzzz
Spare us all that tired old stuff. If that is all you have to add then you have nothing to add.
We both know that what I am saying is true.

SlowBlowin

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

We both know that what I am saying is true.

Do I believe what you are saying as well, or is it just Rows ?

You must win the lottery every week !

MayoAreMagic

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I think the only way to achieve your ideals is to not allow TDs to be involved in any business/organisation that can financially benefit from government policy.

Well look, if a td is running a b&b from the old family home or even if he owns a pub or restaurant, and he manages to boost tourism etc, that isnt the kind of thing Im talking about. That is just a knock on effect and there isnt anything massively wrong there.

But if a guy is running companies that seem to get every contract going, on jobs that he himself directs to the area - disingenuously or otherwise - then that is obviously a potential abuse of his or her position. I dont think it is unreasonable that anyone in a position of directing works to an area, cant be in a position to direct that work to himself. It is common sense. Or do you believe that turkeys will in fact vote for Christmas?

Rows Grower

Donald Trump wrote: »

Don't worry. I wasn't expecting everyone to understand it. You can read a little bit here if you want.


The example on that page of doping in sport is one that people might be able to relate to a little easier. The idea for that one is that if doping is available in sport, then an athlete trying to gain an advantage will take the drug. But then more and more have to take it in order to try to compete with the dopers. It eventually ends up that all competitors need to take it. Therefore there is no longer any advantage to any competitor....but they are now all taking drugs that could harm them.


Parish-pump politics is the same. Everyone wants their own local fella to look after them. Then because some people are getting skipped up the queue, everyone else has to go to their local fella. But in reality, once everyone is doing it then there is no advantage anymore. You are just now left with a worse system.

You really do live up to your name, but I'm sure it all makes sense in your own mind.

Rows Grower

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Ah here, ah cmere, drame queen, would you go away, go and report it zzzzzzz
Spare us all that tired old stuff. If that is all you have to add then you have nothing to add.
We both know that what I am saying is true.

That's the second time today you've tried to claim that we both think the same about some opinion you have somehow formulated in your own head.

I know there's plenty room in there and you have a fertile imagination, but I'm fairly sure we don't have anything in common.

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Can you watch this then continue with your argument.

https://www.facebook.com/MHealyRaeTD/videos/279650666630703/

https://www2.hse.ie/services/cross-border-directive/about-the-cross-border-directive.html

This is a program from the HSE, if a group need a bus your local councillor should be able to arrange.

Your local TD should be part of a government trying to resolve the issue, working with a party on resolving the HSE. Like FF, FG, Labour, SF etc etc are trying to do.

I ask again. For all the years the Healy Rae are in government what have they done to resolve the issue in the HSE?

What have they done to resolve anything at a national level?

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

https://www2.hse.ie/services/cross-border-directive/about-the-cross-border-directive.html

This is a program from the HSE, if a group need a bus your local councillor should be able to arrange.

Your local TD should be part of a government trying to resolve the issue, working with a party on resolving the HSE. Like FF, FG, Labour, SF etc etc are trying to do.

I ask again. For all the years the Healy Rae are in government what have they done to resolve the issue in the HSE?

What have they done to resolve anything at a national level?

He fixed the road.

SlowBlowin

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well look, if a td is running a b&b from the old family home or even if he owns a pub or restaurant, and he manages to boost tourism etc, that isnt the kind of thing Im talking about. That is just a knock on effect and there isnt anything massively wrong there.

But if a guy is running companies that seem to get every contract going, on jobs that he himself directs to the area - disingenuously or otherwise - then that is obviously a potential abuse of his or her position. I dont think it is unreasonable that anyone in a position of directing works to an area, cant be in a position to direct that work to himself. It is common sense. Or do you believe that turkeys will in fact vote for Christmas?

I do understand the point you are making, but from the other side of the coin is that the roads get repaired by a local firm, who do a good job, local men are employed and it costs less than bringing in an out of county company. If the company runs well then after paying staff, and taxes, they make a profit, which after further tax is paid MHR gets a slice of. Its all in the open, less than ideal perhaps, but not worthy of the level of criticism it attracts.

Reading the REGISTER OF INTERESTS OF MEMBERS PDF good slice of political talent would be lost if your plan was implemented.

SlowBlowin

Donald Trump wrote: »

Which video? The one about Michael Healy Rae claiming that he is organising for people to go up the North for operations?


That is a national scheme. It is not something that he is doing off his own bat. He might like the local yokels to think he is the one doing it and be eternally grateful to him for "giving" them something that is theirs by right anyway.



My post was in response to someone more or less saying how they'd be glad that MHR was representing them as long as he was going to get them bumped up a list (at the expense of others). If everyone follows that same principle, then you are left with an overall solution which is not optimum for everyone, and possibly not even optimum for anyone.

The Prisoner's Dilemma is based on complete separation with no communication.

The video shows MHR communicating with government on the matter, therefore the analogy to the Prisoner's Dilemma is not valid in this case.

TaurenDruid

SlowBlowin wrote: »

What a load of pedantic bollox.

If you complain about something is it not logical to make reference to the actual data that is causing the issue ?

If your mum bought a new Nissan car and the MPG was really bad, would you go in the dealership and say "I think Nissan should improve the MPG of their cars" or would you say "My mum bought a car from you and its getting really bad MPG, whats going on" ?

You dont seem to grasp that by drawing attention to real world cases, in bulk, in front of cameras, MHR is making more of a point than asking a simple question, not backed up by real information.

Thats fine, thats just the way you think, but I would always make a point backed up by real world data, it has more impact and relevance.

I think it bizarre that people criticise MHR for asking the question and quoting the actual case. Your preferred route would be to generalise the question and not quote specifics ??? How is that better ???

That was a long response to point out that you don't actually watch Dáil TV or have much of a clue what goes in Leinster House.

TaurenDruid

SlowBlowin wrote: »

If you have watched the video can you comment ?

Remember your stance in this argument is that MHR does not ask questions about the performance of the National Health service.

My stance is that the MHRs and DHRs of this world think it's a good thing for them to intervene in the administration of the health system, so their preferred clients get treatment ahead of other equally deserving people, and I don't think it's a good thing.