Big open air Busk (busking bye-laws)

inisboffin

The other thread on the busking bye laws went way off topic and people who were asking questions didn't get them answered maybe?

The buskers have announced there will be a Big protest Busk on Sunday coming at 7 in Spanish Parade, and that members of the community will also be in attendance to answer questions on the Code Of Conduct vs the Bye Laws and why they are asking for a reversal of them.

It might be useful to go and chat to people in person, and if nothing else there will be tunes! (but cans are against the law mind )

FB linky

*mods I thought this might be a useful on topic follow on to the other discussion but if it's more appropriate in what's on, please move.

A Pint of Goo

Why do these people think they have a right to play music on the street? I could hook my Fender up to an amp outside my neighbours house and start knocking out some riffs, but pretty soon I'd be told to move on.

inisboffin

A Pint of Goo wrote: »

Why do these people think they have a right to play music on the street?

Because they do.

Mrs OBumble

A Pint of Goo wrote: »

Why do these people think they have a right to play music on the street? I could hook my Fender up to an amp outside my neighbours house and start knocking out some riffs, but pretty soon I'd be told to move on.

Who would tell you to move on? Unless you were on your neighbour's property they would have no right to move you on.

However you would probably move on yourself when you realised you weren't making any money.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Who would tell you to move on? Unless you were on your neighbour's property they would have no right to move you on.

Well that’s a load of sh*te. You’d get told by the guards if a neighbour made a complaint.

What stops this from becoming an arms race? What if the only acts are the loudest ones, because only the loud ones get heard?

A bad tradesman blames his tools, and gets expensive fancy ones to cover his ineptitude. A bad musician blames his instrument, and gets an amp to cover his ineptitude.

inisboffin

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that’s a load of sh*te. You’d get told by the guards if a neighbour made a complaint.

What stops this from becoming an arms race? What if the only acts are the loudest ones, because only the loud ones get heard?

A bad tradesman blames his tools, and gets expensive fancy ones to cover his ineptitude. A bad musician blames his instrument, and gets an amp to cover his ineptitude.

Obviously you haven't lived in certain areas of Galway trying to get the guards out for anything noise related over the years! LOL!

The buskers themselves advocated for a noise restriction *not* a type restriction, but the council was having none of it.

Joni Mitchell and Janis Joplin have very different voices, both great but both would be way different buskers.

Nick Drake and Luke Kelly would both be very different buskers. Saying a bad musician blames their tools honestly doesn't apply here.

What about theatre groups, puppeteers, dancers, jugglers, kids' shows - all banned under these byelaws in the daytime.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that’s a load of sh*te. You’d get told by the guards if a neighbour made a complaint.

Maybe at 11pm at night. Maybe.

But in the daytime - not a chance. The guards would likely laugh the complainer out of the station.

A Pint of Goo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Maybe at 11pm at night. Maybe.

But in the daytime - not a chance. The guards would likely laugh the complainer out of the station.

No that's not true. The homeowners would ask you to stop and if you refused the Guards would be called out.

inisboffin

inisboffin wrote: »

What about theatre groups, puppeteers, dancers, jugglers, kids' shows - all banned under these byelaws in the daytime.

What about them? There’s no space for them on he medieval streets. Unless you want to knock a wall in at a disused space to make an alcove.

Now I see that the area between Ceantt station and the docks is up for development, I’d hope that spacious acts advocate that whatever goes there, if there’s footfall designed for, has space to cater for these acts beside the docks.

inisboffin

Deleted User wrote: »

What about them? There’s no space for them on he medieval streets. Unless you want to knock a wall in at a disused space to make an alcove.

Now I see that the area between Ceantt station and the docks is up for development, I’d hope that spacious acts advocate that whatever goes there, if there’s footfall designed for, has space to cater for these acts beside the docks.

SO much of our tourism and vibrancy in this City is based around the street life and music. Businesses have a conniption when a shop opens in the suburbs, they have no idea what removing this draw would do for their business.

Steve The Barman

in fairness 90% of the Buskers are fcuking sh*te

inisboffin

inisboffin wrote: »

SO much of our tourism and vibrancy in this City is based around the street life and music. Businesses have a conniption when a shop opens in the suburbs, they have no idea what removing this draw would do for their business.

We’re not talking about removing them. We’re talking about bringing them back to true busking, acoustic busking, the kind of busking we’re all used to, that a good instrument is well able for in the hands of a capable master, that needs no electronics, that doesn’t exclude the quieter acoustics. If the streets were wider, I’d say let them off. They’re not. We can’t.

inisboffin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We’re not talking about removing them. We’re talking about bringing them back to true busking, acoustic busking, the kind of busking we’re all used to, that a good instrument is well able for in the hands of a capable master, that needs no electronics, that doesn’t exclude the quieter acoustics. If the streets were wider, I’d say let them off. They’re not. We can’t.

That’s it no we’re not going back to what we are used to. We are throwing everything out together. Along with the few who abuse amps and tape up the street, we are throwing out the Spanish guitarists, the electric players, the people who dance or perform to a track (no matter what size amp). You argue that’s what we are used to? What about the likes of Johnny Massacre, Pat Bracken (both RIP), that many here grew up with, with excerpts from the likes of The Flying Pigs at Kings Head? Under the new bye laws none of these would be allowed to perform any day. The laws are ill thought out and didn’t reach any compromise at all.

topper75

inisboffin wrote: »

SO much of our tourism and vibrancy in this City is based around the street life and music. Businesses have a conniption when a shop opens in the suburbs, they have no idea what removing this draw would do for their business.

I see it the opposite way.
I think people seek to buy goods in shops primarily and the busking offerings are incidental.

You seem to suggest that the buskers are the draw and the shops need them to draw a crowd that may ultimately make a purchase.

I never understood the implied right to take over a patch of public space to deliver your artistic offering in exchange for taxfree cash for a few hours. All the while the local authority who maintains that space isn't paid a bean. I mean on that basis - why should a shop keeper pay anything?

A token-priced licensing system would mean that the council gets SOMETHING back from the busking community.

inisboffin

topper75 wrote: »

I see it the opposite way.
I think people seek to buy goods in shops primarily and the busking offerings are incidental.

You seem to suggest that the buskers are the draw and the shops need them to draw a crowd that may ultimately make a purchase.

I never understood the implied right to take over a patch of public space to deliver your artistic offering in exchange for taxfree cash for a few hours. All the while the local authority who maintains that space isn't paid a bean. I mean on that basis - why should a shop keeper pay anything?

A token-priced licensing system would mean that the council gets SOMETHING back from the busking community.

The streets are public space. Even people on the dole pay taxes and are entitled to use the streets the same as everyone (and the tax thing always comes up, why do you assume none of these performers are paying taxes?).
The authorities are paid housing tax and rates from those who live here. Tourists pay hotels and hostels, I pay housing tax, businesses pay rates. Buskers who live here either pay rent or rates, or rent a hotel hostel. Same for travelling buskers. Do you think they land in a spaceship and contribute nothing to the economy themselves?

Of COURSE Galway derives money from the buskers. Look at the 2020 bid (to bring money to Galway). Many buskers were used in the campaign, why do you think that is? Why do you think some business organisations constantly post busker videos and photos in their social media feeds? "Come to this area - spend money and have craic" - it makes good business sense, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

The majority of the buskers are not anti-regulation of some sort. They just wanted input on the process, which they were promised, but not given. I think these bye laws were extremely badly planned, written and have no idea how they will execute them (when they can't execute the existing ones in other areas properly as it stands). I'm a resident and they don't represent my views. Public consultation about these byelaws was over 90% against them in this form, let alone the fact that they changed them right before the vote to make one even stricter. At very least they need to go back to the drawing board with them.

J.pilkington

I won’t be supporting this. This law should weed out the noise pollution and hopefully leave us with the few (very) that are talented enough to perform without a loud amp / backing track.

Buskers only have themselves to blame, selfishly trying to outdo each other on the noise stakes regardless of how untalented most of them are.i can honestly say I was put off walking down shop street due to the amps and really felt for some of the shop workers who had to endure this loud noise right outside their door for their working shift and most of the people I mentioned this agreed it was nothing less than noise pollution.

It’s also a joke to associate good tourist numbers with the current state of busking in Galway.

Mrs OBumble

J.pilkington wrote: »

I won’t be supporting this. This law should weed out the noise pollution and hopefully leave us with the few (very) that are talented enough to perform without a loud amp / backing track.

So Emma isn't a talented dancer? Yeah ...

Ironically some of the better singers choose to use an amp rather than ruin their voices projecting into the street all day.

No one comes for the buskers specifically. They come for the craic / atmosphere - which the buskers as a communoty contribute to.

biko

How I envision Sparch on Sunday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JozAmXo2bDE

topper75

inisboffin wrote: »

The streets are public space. Even people on the dole pay taxes and are entitled to use the streets the same as everyone (and the tax thing always comes up, why do you assume none of these performers are paying taxes?).
The authorities are paid housing tax and rates from those who live here. Tourists pay hotels and hostels, I pay housing tax, businesses pay rates. Buskers who live here either pay rent or rates, or rent a hotel hostel. Same for travelling buskers. Do you think they land in a spaceship and contribute nothing to the economy themselves?

Of COURSE Galway derives money from the buskers. Look at the 2020 bid (to bring money to Galway). Many buskers were used in the campaign, why do you think that is? Why do you think some business organisations constantly post busker videos and photos in their social media feeds? "Come to this area - spend money and have craic" - it makes good business sense, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

The majority of the buskers are not anti-regulation of some sort. They just wanted input on the process, which they were promised, but not given. I think these bye laws were extremely badly planned, written and have no idea how they will execute them (when they can't execute the existing ones in other areas properly as it stands). I'm a resident and they don't represent my views. Public consultation about these byelaws was over 90% against them in this form, let alone the fact that they changed them right before the vote to make one even stricter. At very least they need to go back to the drawing board with them.

The first part of your post suggests that because you pay some tax (yes people on the dole pay VAT when spending) that you are entitled to everything that the state might offer. This would mean never having to pay for train tickets because I have paid my TV licence. That is clearly not workable. Traders pay the council to operate as they do. The busker is a trader using public space to earn but making no contribution back to the council from what they earn. You can freely 'be' in a public space, but to trade is a different thing. The earliest cities charged outsiders to trade within their walls. I'm not exactly making a new suggestion here.

With regard to the second aspect you address, the process - you know more about that than I do, and it seems it was handled poorly alright. You also make a pertinent point about policing - who will do that and how. Can't see them getting that right.

gordongekko

We could have had a Galways got talent style show with the winners getting a licence for the season. Leaving a few spare ones for talented visiting buskers.

inisboffin

gordongekko wrote: »

We could have had a Galways got talent style show with the winners getting a licence for the season. Leaving a few spare ones for talented visiting buskers.

That notion has been put out before. The problem is that one person’s taste isn’t the same as the other and the whole notion of busking it that it is a mixed bag. It simply wouldn’t be practical to police any seasonal buskers either, for the amount of time and spots available for them to queue for.

inisboffin

biko wrote: »

How I envision Sparch on Sunday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JozAmXo2bDE

Sure no harm in mentioning it as a request! :P

On the other side of things, the whole 'brushing everything down to Spanish Arch' by the Council is a whole other matter - never mind no amps, no noise restrictions whatsoever there (within hours).

Currently many of the regular buskers form Galway Buskers Community, and try to engage with the seasonal buskers and have them as part of the community.

To say 'buskers' have done this to themselves is like saying 'people' have done this to themselves. The current regular buskers have tried (and will probably keep trying) to find a middle ground.

Steve The Barman

biko wrote: »

How I envision Sparch on Sunday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JozAmXo2bDE

these people are talented, as i said 90% of the buskers are fcuking sh*te

biko

Steve The Barman wrote: »

these people are talented, as i said 90% of the buskers are fcuking sh*te

It appears you are trying to use statistics to prove a point that cannot be proven

It's simple economics really - if a busker isn't good they don't make money and move on.

bodhrandude

Where did that bin klanger guy come from, shouting 'I am Satan' at the top of his voice and banging the bin for dear life. Was watching him last Monday getting removed from the street by the Gardai while playing my session in Tigh Cholis, who is he, he's as mad as a bag of cats.

inisboffin

bodhrandude wrote: »

Where did that bin klanger guy come from, shouting 'I am Satan' at the top of his voice and banging the bin for dear life. Was watching him last Monday getting removed from the street by the Gardai while playing my session in Tigh Cholis, who is he, he's as mad as a bag of cats.

Not a 'busker' afaik. Just a man with a high alcohol content :P

joeKel73

biko wrote: »

It appears you are trying to use statistics to prove a point that cannot be proven

Even the statistics used are questionable, 74.3% of statistics are just made up on the spot.

inisboffin

J o e wrote: »

Even the statistics used are questionable, 74.3% of statistics are just made up on the spot.

100% correct! :P

thesandeman

How did it go?

inisboffin

Great turnout. Some bye laws being broken (cans) all around but no enforcement to be seen. :P They did 2 hours with buskers from a few bands, some circus stuff etc.

kevin65

thesandeman wrote: »

How did it go?

Music amplification not great but band were good.

ben.schlomo

kevin65 wrote: »

thesandeman wrote: »

How did it go?

Music amplification not great but band were good.

The irony.

inisboffin

ben.schlomo wrote: »

The irony.

The arch is a big sound swallower, that's why you need to be louder there.

The majority of the buskers had small (under 50w) battery amps (the ones the Council had originally allowed in the bye laws, but then changed last minute to go with full ban). They can go loud but distort at full volume. The bigger amps would allow same max volume but clearer. I agree the music was great but I personally would have liked it a bit louder. They were ploughing through the batteries.

The irony is right!

bodhrandude

Well we brought a wee bit of trad to the street last Friday, myself and Kyle that is. Taken by a listener around the restaurant area.

inisboffin

There was a great busk-a-thon the other day in aid of the Simon Community. Well done everyone!

challengemaster

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that’s a load of sh*te. You’d get told by the guards if a neighbour made a complaint.

A Pint of Goo wrote: »

No that's not true. The homeowners would ask you to stop and if you refused the Guards would be called out.

Noise complaints are civil matters, Guards won't touch them. So your method of dealing with a noise complaint is through the district court, and probably waste about a year of your time.

Have fun with it.

motley

Surprised it has not been mentioned on here yet but the busking bye-laws were passed by the city council last night. I am not surprised that they passed and the people who voted for the laws but I think it reflects badly on a city that is European City of Culture in 2020.

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2019/0909/1074864-busking-bye-laws/

biko

Snips from the article

Galway City Council has voted in favour of new bye laws to limit busking and street performance.

Councillors voted by 12 to 6 in favour of the measures, which will come into effect at the beginning of next year.

The rules will ban the use of amplification or backing tracks by buskers before 6pm and also restrict so-called "circle acts", that attract large crowds of bystanders.
The use of drum kits will be banned at all times.

xckjoo

motley wrote: »

Surprised it has not been mentioned on here yet but the busking bye-laws were passed by the city council last night. I am not surprised that they passed and the people who voted for the laws but I think it reflects badly on a city that is European City of Culture in 2020.

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2019/0909/1074864-busking-bye-laws/

I'm going to be honest here and admit that I don't see the big issue with this by-law. I've seen enough buskers playing badly while amped to the max and blocking half the street. The only real issue I saw someone mention here is the people who dance. Not sure how they can work around it beyond partnering up with someone on an instrument.

Laviski

xckjoo wrote: »

I'm going to be honest here and admit that I don't see the big issue with this by-law. I've seen enough buskers playing badly while amped to the max and blocking half the street. The only real issue I saw someone mention here is the people who dance. Not sure how they can work around it beyond partnering up with someone on an instrument.

would aggree.

But this is a result of a minority ruining it for the majority that have been considerate to the shop owners. Shop owners pay high rent and rates to be there and its not fair that those block and play excessively loud music - people just move on rather quicker.

Fitz*

Is this basically a new rule to stop someoner butchering classics all day every day?! :pac:

I agree with reducing the 'circle acts' to be fair, but let the musicians/singers etc play would be my stance, at an acceptable level of course.

ben.schlomo

No issue with them banning amps which are just a nuisance. And the circle acts are a pain in the hole too if you're trying to walk up Shop St with a bike or buggy.

inisboffin

xckjoo wrote: »

I'm going to be honest here and admit that I don't see the big issue with this by-law. I've seen enough buskers playing badly while amped to the max and blocking half the street. The only real issue I saw someone mention here is the people who dance. Not sure how they can work around it beyond partnering up with someone on an instrument.

The amp stuff is just one part of the bye law. Under these new laws, street theatre is essentially banned (Pat Bracken's act would be illegal), as nobody is allowed to draw a crowd, if they do they have to stop. Spanish Guitars no amp, Dancers no backing track, any kind of puppet show, gone.

Conversely, they don't give a ****e about noise after 6pm and seem to not care about residents noise wise, only businesses (open until 6). You can have huge amplification in the evening.

Drum kits are banned, but you can lash away on bongos or djembes.
Fancy a bagpipe or 10? No problem, completely legal, as is 10 trumpets in the daytime (unless 3 people walking together stop to listen). Single whistle player? Don't play too well because if more than 2 or 3 stop it's a crowd apparently.

Fancy a rebel song? If Mr and Mrs Smith from Basingstoke think it's too republican they can report it, and the 'authorities' have to ask you to stop as it's causing offence. Anything causing offence to anyone and you can be stopped.

Children's Choir or charity sing? Well every child needs a guardian with them. Every child under 16. What? Dad has to work, can Mam do it? Nope, has to be the named guardian.

This is only part of it. These laws are archaic and ill thought out.
Rejection of any compromise, and not working with the buskers. Don't think its over though!

Mrs OBumble

I reckon we need to drown the council in complaints about what we find offensive.

Rebel, pacifist, pro-plant, English language, tunes from Cork, pop song, classical ... shure everything's offensive to someone.

Laviski

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I reckon we need to drown the council in complaints about what we find offensive.

Rebel, pacifist, pro-plant, English language, tunes from Cork, pop song, classical ... shure everything's offensive to someone.

council have bigger problems to solve but bang away, happy will be implemented as now should be able to move up and down the street as i should have been.

Homelander

I don't think I'm outraged. I understand that it's a minority have ruined it for a majority, but certain unnamed people were tantamount to aural rape, projecting utter lack of talent far and wide thanks to their amp, and making conditions hell for nearby businesses. I understand that the laws aren't perfect and are full of flaws too. Also these new laws aren't going to be policed by Judge Dredd, so there's an amount of discretion involved obviously. No-one's going to be arrested for drawing a small crowd. This whole thing reminds me of the proposed laws to limit recreational ball games/skateboarding/whatever in public areas, it was aimed at stopping people interfering with/being a nusiance to the general public but people acted like the ERU were going to turn up and absolutely riddle people who had the audacity to play with their child in a public space.

ChewyLouie

Homelander wrote: »

Also these new laws aren't going to be policed by Judge Dredd, so there's an amount of discretion involved obviously. No-one's going to be arrested for drawing a small crowd.

We shouldn't be introducing new laws with the assumption that they're not going to be policed. If they're only palatable on that assumption then they're likely to be bad laws.

Judge them on how fair they are if followed by the letter of the law, because at some stage some Garda (or well connected business person) is going to have a personal issue with an individual or group and use these laws as a mechanism to slap them with.

Music, random public gatherings to enjoy the arts, busking, etc... isn't that what Galway City's all about??

xckjoo

inisboffin wrote: »

The amp stuff is just one part of the bye law. Under these new laws, street theatre is essentially banned (Pat Bracken's act would be illegal), as nobody is allowed to draw a crowd, if they do they have to stop. Spanish Guitars no amp, Dancers no backing track, any kind of puppet show, gone.

Conversely, they don't give a ****e about noise after 6pm and seem to not care about residents noise wise, only businesses (open until 6). You can have huge amplification in the evening.

Drum kits are banned, but you can lash away on bongos or djembes.
Fancy a bagpipe or 10? No problem, completely legal, as is 10 trumpets in the daytime (unless 3 people walking together stop to listen). Single whistle player? Don't play too well because if more than 2 or 3 stop it's a crowd apparently.

Fancy a rebel song? If Mr and Mrs Smith from Basingstoke think it's too republican they can report it, and the 'authorities' have to ask you to stop as it's causing offence. Anything causing offence to anyone and you can be stopped.

Children's Choir or charity sing? Well every child needs a guardian with them. Every child under 16. What? Dad has to work, can Mam do it? Nope, has to be the named guardian.

This is only part of it. These laws are archaic and ill thought out.
Rejection of any compromise, and not working with the buskers. Don't think its over though!

Cheers. Hadn't heard about the rest of it. Is there a link to it because (no offence) some of those sound like hyperbole.
I'll be honest again though and say that I agree with the pre-6/post-6 divide. I avoid Shop Street during the day because it's so choked with groups blocking up the street. I'm not sure what the better fix would be though beyond having a large urban centre which would allow for a lower density of busking "groups". But that's a whole other can of worms to open

inisboffin

ChewyLouie wrote: »

We shouldn't be introducing new laws with the assumption that they're not going to be policed. If they're only palatable on that assumption then they're likely to be bad laws.

Judge them on how fair they are if followed by the letter of the law, because at some stage some Garda (or well connected business person) is going to have a personal issue with an individual or group and use these laws as a mechanism to slap them with.

Music, random public gatherings to enjoy the arts, busking, etc... isn't that what Galway City's all about??

+1

Busking itself aside, why don’t people see how dangerous this ambiguous style of law making is? A small bit of discretion is one thing but these laws are so flawed that they’re completely ambiguous.

Any busker knowing this is going to be constantly looking over their shoulder. Any personal grudge or reason outside the bye laws can be used as a complaint. In the council chambers it was stated than one of the bye laws was drafted because of ONE incident. How is that even allowed? We often need multiple accidents for a spot to be called a black spot so this is ridiculous.

The fact that we are already saying the laws are flawed and discretion is needed, even before they are enacted, should tell us how they are.

They’re not only stupid they are a dangerous precedent.

inisboffin

xckjoo wrote: »

Cheers. Hadn't heard about the rest of it. Is there a link to it because (no offence) some of those sound like hyperbole.
I'll be honest again though and say that I agree with the pre-6/post-6 divide. I avoid Shop Street during the day because it's so choked with groups blocking up the street. I'm not sure what the better fix would be though beyond having a large urban centre which would allow for a lower density of busking "groups". But that's a whole other can of worms to open

I’m on a rubbish phone but there should be a link to the laws earlier in the thread, if not the Galway Buskers Community have a link up on their Facebook and the Galway Community Network have one too.
No offense taken but which part seems like hyperbole to you?

xtradel

The council should be happy if a crowd gathers, at least it'll cover up the state of the street surface!