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Big open air Busk (busking bye-laws)

  • 21-05-2018 8:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    The other thread on the busking bye laws went way off topic and people who were asking questions didn't get them answered maybe?

    The buskers have announced there will be a Big protest Busk on Sunday coming at 7 in Spanish Parade, and that members of the community will also be in attendance to answer questions on the Code Of Conduct vs the Bye Laws and why they are asking for a reversal of them.

    It might be useful to go and chat to people in person, and if nothing else there will be tunes! (but cans are against the law mind :p)

    FB linky

    *mods I thought this might be a useful on topic follow on to the other discussion but if it's more appropriate in what's on, please move.


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Comments

  • Site Banned Posts: 218 ✭✭ A Pint of Goo


    Why do these people think they have a right to play music on the street? I could hook my Fender up to an amp outside my neighbours house and start knocking out some riffs, but pretty soon I'd be told to move on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    Why do these people think they have a right to play music on the street?

    Because they do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,863 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    Why do these people think they have a right to play music on the street? I could hook my Fender up to an amp outside my neighbours house and start knocking out some riffs, but pretty soon I'd be told to move on.

    Who would tell you to move on? Unless you were on your neighbour's property they would have no right to move you on.

    However you would probably move on yourself when you realised you weren't making any money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    Who would tell you to move on? Unless you were on your neighbour's property they would have no right to move you on.

    Well that’s a load of sh*te. You’d get told by the guards if a neighbour made a complaint.

    What stops this from becoming an arms race? What if the only acts are the loudest ones, because only the loud ones get heard?

    A bad tradesman blames his tools, and gets expensive fancy ones to cover his ineptitude. A bad musician blames his instrument, and gets an amp to cover his ineptitude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    SeaSlacker wrote: »
    Well that’s a load of sh*te. You’d get told by the guards if a neighbour made a complaint.

    What stops this from becoming an arms race? What if the only acts are the loudest ones, because only the loud ones get heard?

    A bad tradesman blames his tools, and gets expensive fancy ones to cover his ineptitude. A bad musician blames his instrument, and gets an amp to cover his ineptitude.

    Obviously you haven't lived in certain areas of Galway trying to get the guards out for anything noise related over the years! LOL!

    The buskers themselves advocated for a noise restriction *not* a type restriction, but the council was having none of it.

    Joni Mitchell and Janis Joplin have very different voices, both great but both would be way different buskers.

    Nick Drake and Luke Kelly would both be very different buskers. Saying a bad musician blames their tools honestly doesn't apply here.

    What about theatre groups, puppeteers, dancers, jugglers, kids' shows - all banned under these byelaws in the daytime.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,863 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    SeaSlacker wrote: »
    Well that’s a load of sh*te. You’d get told by the guards if a neighbour made a complaint.

    Maybe at 11pm at night. Maybe.

    But in the daytime - not a chance. The guards would likely laugh the complainer out of the station.


  • Site Banned Posts: 218 ✭✭ A Pint of Goo


    Maybe at 11pm at night. Maybe.

    But in the daytime - not a chance. The guards would likely laugh the complainer out of the station.

    No that's not true. The homeowners would ask you to stop and if you refused the Guards would be called out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    inisboffin wrote: »
    What about theatre groups, puppeteers, dancers, jugglers, kids' shows - all banned under these byelaws in the daytime.

    What about them? There’s no space for them on he medieval streets. Unless you want to knock a wall in at a disused space to make an alcove.

    Now I see that the area between Ceantt station and the docks is up for development, I’d hope that spacious acts advocate that whatever goes there, if there’s footfall designed for, has space to cater for these acts beside the docks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    SeaSlacker wrote: »
    What about them? There’s no space for them on he medieval streets. Unless you want to knock a wall in at a disused space to make an alcove.

    Now I see that the area between Ceantt station and the docks is up for development, I’d hope that spacious acts advocate that whatever goes there, if there’s footfall designed for, has space to cater for these acts beside the docks.

    SO much of our tourism and vibrancy in this City is based around the street life and music. Businesses have a conniption when a shop opens in the suburbs, they have no idea what removing this draw would do for their business.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭ Steve The Barman


    in fairness 90% of the Buskers are fcuking sh*te


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    inisboffin wrote: »
    SO much of our tourism and vibrancy in this City is based around the street life and music. Businesses have a conniption when a shop opens in the suburbs, they have no idea what removing this draw would do for their business.

    We’re not talking about removing them. We’re talking about bringing them back to true busking, acoustic busking, the kind of busking we’re all used to, that a good instrument is well able for in the hands of a capable master, that needs no electronics, that doesn’t exclude the quieter acoustics. If the streets were wider, I’d say let them off. They’re not. We can’t.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    SeaSlacker wrote: »
    We’re not talking about removing them. We’re talking about bringing them back to true busking, acoustic busking, the kind of busking we’re all used to, that a good instrument is well able for in the hands of a capable master, that needs no electronics, that doesn’t exclude the quieter acoustics. If the streets were wider, I’d say let them off. They’re not. We can’t.

    That’s it no we’re not going back to what we are used to. We are throwing everything out together. Along with the few who abuse amps and tape up the street, we are throwing out the Spanish guitarists, the electric players, the people who dance or perform to a track (no matter what size amp). You argue that’s what we are used to? What about the likes of Johnny Massacre, Pat Bracken (both RIP), that many here grew up with, with excerpts from the likes of The Flying Pigs at Kings Head? Under the new bye laws none of these would be allowed to perform any day. The laws are ill thought out and didn’t reach any compromise at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭ topper75


    inisboffin wrote: »
    SO much of our tourism and vibrancy in this City is based around the street life and music. Businesses have a conniption when a shop opens in the suburbs, they have no idea what removing this draw would do for their business.

    I see it the opposite way.
    I think people seek to buy goods in shops primarily and the busking offerings are incidental.

    You seem to suggest that the buskers are the draw and the shops need them to draw a crowd that may ultimately make a purchase.

    I never understood the implied right to take over a patch of public space to deliver your artistic offering in exchange for taxfree cash for a few hours. All the while the local authority who maintains that space isn't paid a bean. I mean on that basis - why should a shop keeper pay anything?

    A token-priced licensing system would mean that the council gets SOMETHING back from the busking community.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    topper75 wrote: »
    I see it the opposite way.
    I think people seek to buy goods in shops primarily and the busking offerings are incidental.

    You seem to suggest that the buskers are the draw and the shops need them to draw a crowd that may ultimately make a purchase.

    I never understood the implied right to take over a patch of public space to deliver your artistic offering in exchange for taxfree cash for a few hours. All the while the local authority who maintains that space isn't paid a bean. I mean on that basis - why should a shop keeper pay anything?

    A token-priced licensing system would mean that the council gets SOMETHING back from the busking community.

    The streets are public space. Even people on the dole pay taxes and are entitled to use the streets the same as everyone (and the tax thing always comes up, why do you assume none of these performers are paying taxes?).
    The authorities are paid housing tax and rates from those who live here. Tourists pay hotels and hostels, I pay housing tax, businesses pay rates. Buskers who live here either pay rent or rates, or rent a hotel hostel. Same for travelling buskers. Do you think they land in a spaceship and contribute nothing to the economy themselves?

    Of COURSE Galway derives money from the buskers. Look at the 2020 bid (to bring money to Galway). Many buskers were used in the campaign, why do you think that is? Why do you think some business organisations constantly post busker videos and photos in their social media feeds? "Come to this area - spend money and have craic" - it makes good business sense, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

    The majority of the buskers are not anti-regulation of some sort. They just wanted input on the process, which they were promised, but not given. I think these bye laws were extremely badly planned, written and have no idea how they will execute them (when they can't execute the existing ones in other areas properly as it stands). I'm a resident and they don't represent my views. Public consultation about these byelaws was over 90% against them in this form, let alone the fact that they changed them right before the vote to make one even stricter. At very least they need to go back to the drawing board with them.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,334 J.pilkington


    I won’t be supporting this. This law should weed out the noise pollution and hopefully leave us with the few (very) that are talented enough to perform without a loud amp / backing track.

    Buskers only have themselves to blame, selfishly trying to outdo each other on the noise stakes regardless of how untalented most of them are.i can honestly say I was put off walking down shop street due to the amps and really felt for some of the shop workers who had to endure this loud noise right outside their door for their working shift and most of the people I mentioned this agreed it was nothing less than noise pollution.

    It’s also a joke to associate good tourist numbers with the current state of busking in Galway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,863 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    I won’t be supporting this. This law should weed out the noise pollution and hopefully leave us with the few (very) that are talented enough to perform without a loud amp / backing track.

    So Emma isn't a talented dancer? Yeah ...

    Ironically some of the better singers choose to use an amp rather than ruin their voices projecting into the street all day.

    No one comes for the buskers specifically. They come for the craic / atmosphere - which the buskers as a communoty contribute to.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    How I envision Sparch on Sunday



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭ topper75


    inisboffin wrote: »
    The streets are public space. Even people on the dole pay taxes and are entitled to use the streets the same as everyone (and the tax thing always comes up, why do you assume none of these performers are paying taxes?).
    The authorities are paid housing tax and rates from those who live here. Tourists pay hotels and hostels, I pay housing tax, businesses pay rates. Buskers who live here either pay rent or rates, or rent a hotel hostel. Same for travelling buskers. Do you think they land in a spaceship and contribute nothing to the economy themselves?

    Of COURSE Galway derives money from the buskers. Look at the 2020 bid (to bring money to Galway). Many buskers were used in the campaign, why do you think that is? Why do you think some business organisations constantly post busker videos and photos in their social media feeds? "Come to this area - spend money and have craic" - it makes good business sense, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

    The majority of the buskers are not anti-regulation of some sort. They just wanted input on the process, which they were promised, but not given. I think these bye laws were extremely badly planned, written and have no idea how they will execute them (when they can't execute the existing ones in other areas properly as it stands). I'm a resident and they don't represent my views. Public consultation about these byelaws was over 90% against them in this form, let alone the fact that they changed them right before the vote to make one even stricter. At very least they need to go back to the drawing board with them.

    The first part of your post suggests that because you pay some tax (yes people on the dole pay VAT when spending) that you are entitled to everything that the state might offer. This would mean never having to pay for train tickets because I have paid my TV licence. That is clearly not workable. Traders pay the council to operate as they do. The busker is a trader using public space to earn but making no contribution back to the council from what they earn. You can freely 'be' in a public space, but to trade is a different thing. The earliest cities charged outsiders to trade within their walls. I'm not exactly making a new suggestion here.

    With regard to the second aspect you address, the process - you know more about that than I do, and it seems it was handled poorly alright. You also make a pertinent point about policing - who will do that and how. Can't see them getting that right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭ gordongekko


    We could have had a Galways got talent style show with the winners getting a licence for the season. Leaving a few spare ones for talented visiting buskers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    We could have had a Galways got talent style show with the winners getting a licence for the season. Leaving a few spare ones for talented visiting buskers.

    That notion has been put out before. The problem is that one person’s taste isn’t the same as the other and the whole notion of busking it that it is a mixed bag. It simply wouldn’t be practical to police any seasonal buskers either, for the amount of time and spots available for them to queue for.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    biko wrote: »
    How I envision Sparch on Sunday



    Sure no harm in mentioning it as a request! :P

    On the other side of things, the whole 'brushing everything down to Spanish Arch' by the Council is a whole other matter - never mind no amps, no noise restrictions whatsoever there (within hours).

    Currently many of the regular buskers form Galway Buskers Community, and try to engage with the seasonal buskers and have them as part of the community.

    To say 'buskers' have done this to themselves is like saying 'people' have done this to themselves. The current regular buskers have tried (and will probably keep trying) to find a middle ground.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭ Steve The Barman


    biko wrote: »
    How I envision Sparch on Sunday


    these people are talented, as i said 90% of the buskers are fcuking sh*te


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    these people are talented, as i said 90% of the buskers are fcuking sh*te
    It appears you are trying to use statistics to prove a point that cannot be proven :D

    It's simple economics really - if a busker isn't good they don't make money and move on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,294 ✭✭✭✭ bodhrandude


    Where did that bin klanger guy come from, shouting 'I am Satan' at the top of his voice and banging the bin for dear life. Was watching him last Monday getting removed from the street by the Gardai while playing my session in Tigh Cholis, who is he, he's as mad as a bag of cats.

    If you want to get into it, you got to get out of it. (Hawkwind 1982)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    Where did that bin klanger guy come from, shouting 'I am Satan' at the top of his voice and banging the bin for dear life. Was watching him last Monday getting removed from the street by the Gardai while playing my session in Tigh Cholis, who is he, he's as mad as a bag of cats.

    Not a 'busker' afaik. Just a man with a high alcohol content :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,689 joeKel73


    biko wrote: »
    It appears you are trying to use statistics to prove a point that cannot be proven :D

    Even the statistics used are questionable, 74.3% of statistics are just made up on the spot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    J o e wrote: »
    Even the statistics used are questionable, 74.3% of statistics are just made up on the spot.

    100% correct! :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,831 ✭✭✭ thesandeman


    How did it go?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,356 ✭✭✭ inisboffin


    Great turnout. Some bye laws being broken (cans) all around but no enforcement to be seen. :P They did 2 hours with buskers from a few bands, some circus stuff etc.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 538 kevin65


    How did it go?

    Music amplification not great but band were good.


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