Killakee Road

Rechuchote

I have a friend who lives in Glencree. She says every Saturday the Killakee Road becomes impossible, because cyclists are training up there.

She hangs back and won't pass while there's a solid white line and no view ahead, but a lot of people in cars behind her then blare at her; some race past, endangering the cyclists, despite the solid white line.

And drivers coming downhill race around bends at cyclists and at these overtaking drivers.

And as she says, she can't afford to burn out her gearbox by driving all the way up in first and second. Not that this is her primary concern - safety is.

She says "Would it be possible to make the Killakee Road one-way on Saturdays? It would mean a fair bit of circuitous driving, but it would be a lot safer."

Lumen

Rechuchote wrote: »

She hangs back and won't pass while there's a solid white line and no view ahead

That sounds sensible.

Rechuchote wrote: »

And as she says, she can't afford to burn out her gearbox by driving all the way up in first and second.

That sounds a lot like the "it's impossible to drive my car at 30kph" complaints that came with the new city centre speed limits.

There's no such thing as "burning out a gearbox".

Rechuchote

Not in the least. And she's actually burnt out one gearbox already. This isn't an anti-cyclist driver; she cycled everywhere till her particular line of work and living in the mountains made it necessary to drive more; she still brings her bike down on the car and cycles through the city when possible.

Please don't take this as a complainy driver; this is someone who wants safety and mutual care.

Lumen

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not in the least. And she's actually burnt out one gearbox already.

There's no such thing as "burning out a gearbox".

The closest thing I can imagine is wearing out the clutch by using it wrong.

Driving slowly does not put extra load on the gearbox.

Rechuchote

Lumen wrote: »

There's no such thing as "burning out a gearbox".

The closest thing I can imagine is wearing out the clutch by using it wrong.

Driving slowly does not put extra load on the gearbox.

Well, Lumen, it's good that you know better than her mechanics. Back to the question of safety on the Killakee Road now.

Tell me how

I feel your frustration on the responses focusing on driving style.


Realistically, I don't think changing a road to 1 way is feasible. It would need infrastructure (signage, barriers, lights) and enforcement. It would lead to charlies trying to sneak through "just inside" the time window and thus increase risk if accidents given that others wouldn't expect to see them.

Frustrating and all as it might sound. Could your friend plan their day so they're not on the road at that time. Either be at a destination away from home or stay at home when they kepi the road is going to be particularly busy.

Lumen

Rechuchote wrote: »

Well, Lumen, it's good that you know better than her mechanics.

I cannot definitely address a third-hand presentation of a mechanical problem, but what you've stated (that driving slowly "burns out" a gearbox) is impossible, if the clutch is fully engaged. It's most likely that she is slipping the clutch, which is bad driving technique, but since she's not here to explain her driving technique this is unknowable.

I drive up Cruagh Road (steeper and bendier than Killakee Road) behind cyclists from time to time, at walking pace in first gear, and my gearbox doesn't suffer at all. She's doing it wrong.

Rechuchote wrote: »

Back to the question of safety on the Killakee Road now.

Fine.

Rechuchote wrote: »

the Killakee Road becomes impossible, because cyclists are training up there.

This is misattribution of the sort "if X didn't exist Y wouldn't happen, therefore Y is X's fault".

Rechuchote wrote: »

a lot of people in cars behind her then blare at her; some race past, endangering the cyclists, despite the solid white line...And drivers coming downhill race around bends at cyclists and at these overtaking drivers.

And endangering themselves. Offset head-on collisions are very dangerous.

The road becomes hazardous because of dangerous driving by motorists who wish to drive at the speed limit. Do they mount the footpath when blocked by cars in traffic jams? Cyclists are traffic. Overtaking across white lines round blind bends is extremely dangerous.

Rechuchote wrote: »

She says "Would it be possible to make the Killakee Road one-way on Saturdays? It would mean a fair bit of circuitous driving, but it would be a lot safer."

A contraflow with segregated cycle lanes might work.

Or a 30kph limit enforced by speed cameras, which would reduce the gains to be made by overtaking.

Rechuchote

Tell me how wrote: »

I feel your frustration on the responses focusing on driving style.


Realistically, I don't think changing a road to 1 way is feasible. It would need infrastructure (signage, barriers, lights) and enforcement. It would lead to charlies trying to sneak through "just inside" the time window and thus increase risk if accidents given that others wouldn't expect to see them.

Frustrating and all as it might sound. Could your friend plan their day so they're not on the road at that time. Either be at a destination away from home or stay at home when they kepi the road is going to be particularly busy.

Well, not realistically, no. This is someone who generally works a 10-hour day; Saturday is the only day for shopping and family stuff and carrying animal feed and so on. And she's not the only one - this affects all the residents.

It might be difficult - but it's a better solution than what a lot of locals would like: to ban training on the road. She doesn't want that; she wants safety for the cyclists, and to be able to drive up - she's happy to compromise on driving the l-o-o-o-n-g way around if she's coming down into town.

Tell me how

Rechuchote wrote:

It might be difficult - but it's a better solution than what a lot of locals would like: to ban training on the road. She doesn't want that; she wants safety for the cyclists, and to be able to drive up - she's happy to compromise on driving the l-o-o-o-n-g way around if she's coming down into town.

Well then the best solution is probably for all road users to use the road as safely as it is to do so, obeying the laws of the road, as they exist.

Lumen

Is there enough road width to put these in between the two traffic lanes on bends without preventing access by HGVs?

Wishbone Ash

I'd agree with Lumen. It sounds like your friend is 'riding' the clutch. Perhaps a vehicle with automatic transmission may be more suitable.

coastwatch

Your friend is encountering slower moving road traffic, it's quite common, pedestrians, cyclists, HGVs, buses, agricultural machinery, cattle being moved, etc. Cars are designed to travel slowly too. She is to be complimented on her driving, waiting behind slower moving traffic, until it's safe to pass. She really should ignore the blaring cars behind her and not feel pressurised into overtaking before it's safe to do so. I find Lyric FM with the volume up helps drown out the blaring car horns. If she still finds that road intolerable, she really needs to find another route.

Rechuchote

Lumen wrote: »

Is there enough road width to put these in between the two traffic lanes on bends without preventing access by HGVs?

Not really - it's a steep, twisty, narrow road with very bad sightlines.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'd agree with Lumen. It sounds like your friend is 'riding' the clutch. Perhaps a vehicle with automatic transmission may be more suitable.

Heh, give her the money and she'd be very happy! No, seriously, this is one of the very best drivers I know.

coastwatch wrote: »

Your friend is encountering slower moving road traffic, it's quite common, pedestrians, cyclists, HGVs, buses, agricultural machinery, cattle being moved, etc. Cars are designed to travel slowly too. She is to be complimented on her driving, waiting behind slower moving traffic, until it's safe to pass. She really should ignore the blaring cars behind her and not feel pressurised into overtaking before it's safe to do so. I find Lyric FM with the volume up helps drown out the blaring car horns. If she still finds that road intolerable, she really needs to find another route.

She does ignore the blaring cars. What worries her is the fact that they blare straight past her into blind bends; she says there's going to be a crash killing one or more cyclists inevitably, because of this driver behaviour, and the only way she sees to fix it is to have it one-way on that one day.

Go up and take a look on a busy cyclist-training day and you'll see what she's talking about.

wirelessdude01

Rechuchote wrote:

It might be difficult - but it's a better solution than what a lot of locals would like: to ban training on the road. She doesn't want that; she wants safety for the cyclists, and to be able to drive up - she's happy to compromise on driving the l-o-o-o-n-g way around if she's coming down into town.

Well training won't and can't be banned anyway. Sounds like your friend needs to stop riding the clutch as you cannot burn out a gearbox.

Rechuchote

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Well training won't and can't be banned anyway. Sounds like your friend needs to stop riding the clutch as you cannot burn out a gearbox.

Sweet

Suffering

Mother

of

Divine

Jesus

She's not riding the effing clutch. Get off the clutch. You're like the effing illuminati who shout "Hi-viz!" "Road tax" rather than touching the actual problem!

Tell me how

Rechuchote wrote:

Get off the clutch.

Good point.
You should tell your friend that.

Hurrache

Lumen wrote: »

Is there enough road width to put these in between the two traffic lanes on bends without preventing access by HGVs?

You'd never get a logging truck up and down there for example.

retalivity

As a driver, i'd be more concerned about the cars parked all over the road at masseys/hellfire club car park every weekend. Twice in the past month ive gone up/down there and traffic was at a standstill due to it being impassable - vans couldnt get past badly parked cars, etc.

magicbastarder

Tell me how wrote: »

Good point.
You should tell your friend that.

mod note - can we leave the gearbox/clutch talk at that now please? it's got the potential to derail the thread to no-one's benefit.

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

Is there enough road width to put these in between the two traffic lanes on bends without preventing access by HGVs?

i'd say you'd get drivers blaming those wands for crashes then.

Rechuchote

retalivity wrote: »

As a driver, i'd be more concerned about the cars parked all over the road at masseys/hellfire club car park every weekend. Twice in the past month ive gone up/down there and traffic was at a standstill due to it being impassable - vans couldnt get past badly parked cars, etc.

Yeah, she says that too - especially up near Lough Brae, the parking is in. sane.

smacl

Rechuchote wrote: »

Yeah, she says that too - especially up near Lough Brae, the parking is in. sane.

Also worth noting that the main alternative route, Cruagh road, has road works on it and is likely to for some time, so Killakee is busier. Given that it is not a problem likely to get fixed any time soon, and the amount of building around Stocking lane which is likely to increase traffic, I'd suggest your friend picks another route or just gets used to the delays. For Glencree, Glencullen - Barrack road (Devils Elbow) might be a better bet. Still plenty cyclists but quieter overall.

Nearly got taken out of ut myself a couple of weeks back descending by L.Brae when a car decided to overtake a bunch of climbing cyclists leaving me very little room. Things certainly seem to have got busier up there over the last couple of years. Given that the area, including that section of the Military road and Glencree, lies with a national park, you feel that leisure users such as cyclists should be given priority.

Wishbone Ash

smacl wrote: »

... For Glencree, Glencullen - Barrack road (Devils Elbow) might be a better bet. Still plenty cyclists but quieter overall....

....or via Glenasmole/Glassamucky/Cunard/Featherbeds/Glencree.

...or Piperstown/Cunard/ Featherbeds/Glencree

Much quieter route for motor vehicles and cyclists and better sight lines for much of it.

Grassey

Rechuchote wrote:

It might be difficult - but it's a better solution than what a lot of locals would like: to ban training on the road.

What about people that don't train, and use the road to go for a social cycle where its scenic and quiet and has little motorised traffic? There are multitudes of other roads the cars could use without encountering slower traffic, we spend enough on building new roads as it is.

Should cars who are out for a nice weather weekend drive (or training driving on narrow roads up there) also be barred since they could likely use an alternative N/M road in most cases?

Tenzor07

Where do I go to complain about the cars slowing me down on the road between Glencree and Enniskerry when I'm out training?

Rechuchote

smacl wrote: »

Given that the area, including that section of the Military road and Glencree, lies with a national park, you feel that leisure users such as cyclists should be given priority.

Yeah, that's kind of what my friend is saying - why not make it one-way, then the danger of oncoming cars would be taken out of it.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Where do I go to complain about the cars slowing me down on the road between Glencree and Enniskerry when I'm out training?

Here?

loyatemu

making it one way would just encourage drivers to put the foot down (the right foot, not the one on the clutch). So not necessarily safer for cyclists.

It would also have knock on effects for traffic elsewhere, in places where more people live like around Enniskerry, so I can't see it being a popular proposal with anyone.

smacl

Rechuchote wrote: »

Yeah, that's kind of what my friend is saying - why not make it one-way, then the danger of oncoming cars would be taken out of it.

Making it one way would halve its attractiveness to cyclists. I'd tend to sign the roads across the Wicklow national park as designated cycling route, give bikes priority, and add signs telling motorists to slow down and expect delays. After all, it is not a commuting route, nor an area with a large population, it is a national park and should be treated as such. Most of the weekend traffic there is leisure based as well and should be taking things leisurely.

Rechuchote

loyatemu wrote: »

making it one way would just encourage drivers to put the foot down (the right foot, not the one on the clutch). So not necessarily safer for cyclists.

It would also have knock on effects for traffic elsewhere, in places where more people live like around Enniskerry, so I can't see it being a popular proposal with anyone.

Safer, though, than having cars coming down and meeting cars coming up; it's the natural response of a driver to swerve inwards if there's a car coming at him or her head-on.

smacl wrote: »

Making it one way would halve its attractiveness to cyclists. I'd tend to sign the roads across the Wicklow national park as designated cycling route, give bikes priority, and add signs telling motorists to slow down and expect delays. After all, it is not a commuting route, nor an area with a large population, it is a national park and should be treated as such. Most of the weekend traffic there is leisure based as well and should be taking things leisurely.

Yes, yes. But safety. And a little concern for locals too.

1bryan

Hurrache wrote: »

You'd never get a logging truck up and down there for example.

you do, quite regularly.

I'd be all for making the route accessible by cyclist-only on weekends (and car only by residents of the mountains). And I'm a local to the area. I live in the one of the Ballycullen estates. Seeing so many cyclists up there is a really great thing to see, and a really great use of the amenity that is the Dublin mountains.

magicbastarder

1bryan wrote: »

you do, quite regularly.

i'm not sure you read that post in the context of the one (s)he was replying to.

Hurrache

1bryan wrote: »

you do, quite regularly.

I know, that's my point.

If you put up bollards in the middle of the road, you then wouldn't which is what I was saying, without it driving over all them.

1bryan

Hurrache wrote: »

I know, that's my point.

If you put up bollards in the middle of the road, you then wouldn't which is what I was saying, without it driving over all them.

ah apologies, I was still perplexed about the reasoning for this thread being opened.

100% agree with you then.

smacl

1bryan wrote: »

ah apologies, I was still perplexed about the reasoning for this thread being opened.

100% agree with you then.

There is definitely an issue with frustrated drivers dangerously overtaking cyclists on climbs on narrow roads. If you go up via L.Brae on a summers weekend there will be a pretty constant stream of cyclists climbing and a high likelihood of others descending. This basically means that as a motorist your options are to either drive up that road at cycling speeds or take another route. Third option, which I came across a couple of weeks ago first hand, is to commit a dangerous overtake and occupy the space of the descending cyclist risking a serious accident. Not sure what the solution is here other than to tell motorists to drive carefully and expect delays and tell cyclists to exercise caution.

1bryan

smacl wrote: »

There is definitely an issue with frustrated drivers dangerously overtaking cyclists on climbs on narrow roads. If you go up via L.Brae on a summers weekend there will be a pretty constant stream of cyclists climbing and a high likelihood of others descending. This basically means that as a motorist your options are to either drive up that road at cycling speeds or take another route. Third option, which I came across a couple of weeks ago first hand, is to commit a dangerous overtake and occupy the space of the descending cyclist risking a serious accident. Not sure what the solution is here other than to tell motorists to drive carefully and expect delays and tell cyclists to exercise caution.

I would have thought 80% or more of the drivers up there were out for a scenic drive and not necessarily heading anywhere in particular. That being the case you think they'd be glad of the extra time to enjoy the scenery.

Hurrache

1bryan wrote: »

I would have thought 80% or more of the drivers up there were out for a scenic drive and not necessarily heading anywhere in particular. That being the case you think they'd be glad of the extra time to enjoy the scenery.

Exactly what I was going to post. Any time I've headed over it by car I'm in no hurry to get anywhere, and it's hardly on somebody's commute.

Tenzor07

1bryan wrote: »

I would have thought 80% or more of the drivers up there were out for a scenic drive and not necessarily heading anywhere in particular. That being the case you think they'd be glad of the extra time to enjoy the scenery.

The part I don't like is when you get the motorist tailing you closely then as they overtake they put the foot down and you get a few lung fulls of black diesel fumes!

smacl

1bryan wrote: »

I would have thought 80% or more of the drivers up there were out for a scenic drive and not necessarily heading anywhere in particular. That being the case you think they'd be glad of the extra time to enjoy the scenery.

I think the problem is invariably with the few rather than the many, where the few are enough to cause serious accidents.

Borderfox

One particular problem around my way (and probably countrywide) is the prevalence of drivers taking a sort of rally/racing line around corners. Trying to straighten every bend to keep their speed up.

Your friend sounds like a very considerate driver so just let the impatient drivers sod off

CramCycle

On a related note, I would like to ban people from visiting Bray seafront at the weekends. It is my only day to get out and get bits and pieces and driving or cycling slowly because some people want to get out and enjoy it is a PITA.

My car is an automatic so it is fine but my bike has multiple gears and I am wearing them down quicker with all the changing, as well as wearing my brakepads down a sight quicker as well.

it Quintuples my driving time or doubles / triples my cycling time. Other peoples enjoyment of life should not supersede my convenience or time.

Kaisr Sose

1bryan wrote: »

I would have thought 80% or more of the drivers up there were out for a scenic drive and not necessarily heading anywhere in particular. That being the case you think they'd be glad of the extra time to enjoy the scenery.

Scenery is only interesting to some if it goes past in a blur....
But you are right, speeding up and down scenic roads in a car defeats the purpose of the scenic, relaxed drive

Rechuchote

1bryan wrote: »

I would have thought 80% or more of the drivers up there were out for a scenic drive and not necessarily heading anywhere in particular. That being the case you think they'd be glad of the extra time to enjoy the scenery.

You would, wouldn't you!

P_1

Unfortunately making the road one way or indeed restricting cycling would be rather unenforceable. I guess one potential option for your friend might be to drive out slightly towards the center of the lane, preventing the impatient drivers from overtaking though that may cause more problems than solutions.

Grassey

Or hang back a car length or more from the cyclist rear wheel to make the total overtake distance less 'chance-arm-able'.

magicbastarder

it'd require infrastructure and land acquisition, but passing points sound like the most obvious solution.

Rechuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

it'd require infrastructure and land acquisition, but passing points sound like the most obvious solution.

That's true. The trouble is the impatient immortal drivers.

n1ey

Lumen wrote: »

That sounds sensible.


That sounds a lot like the "it's impossible to drive my car at 30kph" complaints that came with the new city centre speed limits.

There's no such thing as "burning out a gearbox".

People with constant shifting are likely to wear out the clutch plate. In an automatic car you can drive, now, considerably longer than a manual car without any heavy overhauls. Fuel mileage is higher in many types of automatics, now.

I can not figure out Ireland with hybrids and fake manuals. Time to move into automatic transmissions. With road safety as an issue one would think that the telephone in the left hand and the shifter in the right hand is just asking for trouble.

bill

cython

n1ey wrote: »

People with constant shifting are likely to wear out the clutch plate. In an automatic car you can drive, now, considerably longer than a manual car without any heavy overhauls. Fuel mileage is higher in many types of automatics, now.

I can not figure out Ireland with hybrids and fake manuals. Time to move into automatic transmissions. With road safety as an issue one would think that the telephone in the left hand and the shifter in the right hand is just asking for trouble.

bill

Phone use while driving is already illegal (regardless of hand used!), it just needs to be better enforced. However, if you're trying to drive the majority of cars on Irish roads with the gear lever in your right hand, frankly you're doing it wrong! :pac:

Grassey

cython wrote: »

if you're trying to drive the majority of cars on Irish roads with the gear lever in your right hand, frankly you're doing it wrong! :pac:

The Dutch Rudder?

DirkVoodoo

n1ey wrote: »

People with constant shifting are likely to wear out the clutch plate.

Being stuck behind cyclists and alternating 1st/2nd gears is not much different from driving bumper-to-bumper in rush hour traffic. I don't hear anyone complaining about their clutch then.

I don't think there is a solution to this problem really. If you live along a route favored by cyclists at the weekend, it's really the same as living in a commuter rat-run or having people "park and ride" in your estate during the week.

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Being stuck behind cyclists and alternating 1st/2nd gears is not much different from driving bumper-to-bumper in rush hour traffic. I don't hear anyone complaining about their clutch then.

Drivers of 1990s supercars (e.g. Lamborghini Diabolo) often report back pain from clutch use in slow-moving traffic. It's a problem I've yet to experience in my 13 year old Honda MPV.