Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

McGiver

rubadub wrote:

For someone so hyped up about the issue your ignorance about it is astonishing.

You don't have to call a person citing an actual research ignorant for not looking at a pressure group's website with a non-evidence based agenda. It would be better to send me a link to an actual research. Better take this to a separate thread dedicated to the helmet issue.

grogi

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So all of that is based on

and nothing else except what might result from that.

So for the cost/inconvenience of wearing a helmet there will be a significant reduction in the numbers cycling?

Any other argument that does not suit your point is invalid?

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So all of that is based on

- reduce number of people cycling

and nothing else except what might result from that.

So for the cost/inconvenience of wearing a helmet there will be a significant reduction in the numbers cycling?

grogi wrote: »

Any other argument that does not suit your point is invalid?

Huh?

Invalid?

Are you making things up just to pick an argument?

I'm not playing today.

antodeco

I was going down Sir John Rogersons quay this morning, at exactly 25kmh on my scooter. I heard a noise behind me and a guy on an electric skateboard went passed me, close to 40kmh I would say (he was pulling away from at some pace). Are they able to go that fast normally? I was impressed by the speed he was able to get passed me!

mike_2009

there are some e-scooters now able to do 80kmh, not that I'd want to fall off one at that speed / collide with something...!! Google Dualtron Ultra/Thunder to see....expensive and very heavy though..!

magentis

mike_2009 wrote: »

there are some e-scooters now able to do 80kmh, not that I'd want to fall off one at that speed / collide with something...!! Google Dualtron Ultra/Thunder to see....expensive and very heavy though..!

Imagine if one of them ploughed into you at that speed.

No reg plate to track the user down no insurance to cover your medical bills.

Markcheese

magentis wrote: »

Imagine if one of them ploughed into you at that speed.

No reg plate to track the user down no insurance to cover your medical bills.

That's true, but I don't think anyone on here was advocating legalising/ normalising anything that big, ( most are for a pedalec equivalent standard)

Sure there's people going about in cars with fake or cloned plates... Its common for immaculate motor bikes to have tiny/ illegible number plates,
Should we ban all cars as a result..

TonyAdams1998

Just told today that I'd be moving office, and that I'd be needing to take another bus when I get into Town on top of the 150 I spend a month.

Does anyone here still risk it for commutes in Town or are the guards cracking down on them hard? I'd prefer Dublin bikes but they don't go to Donnybrook and Bleeper bikes never seem to be available when I check.

McGiver

Markcheese wrote:

Sure there's people going about in cars with fake or cloned plates... Its common for immaculate motor bikes to have tiny/ illegible number plates, Should we ban all cars as a result..

That's a strawman argument and wrong analogy.
There is a robust regulatory framework and government agencies dedicated to cars and motorbikes. There's nothing like that for the scooters. Regulation is required.

quarryman

So, STILL no answer from the Department of Transport on legislating for these...

tuxy

quarryman wrote: »

So, STILL no answer from the Department of Transport on legislating for these...

Are they still a common sight in Dublin?

TonyAdams1998

tuxy wrote: »

Are they still a common sight in Dublin?

I saw about 5 of them today alone

McGiver

quarryman wrote:

So, STILL no answer from the Department of Transport on legislating for these...

Did you contact them with an official RFI?

Garibaldi?

A lot of them around town now. Safer than a bike in my opinion. Easy to hop off a scooter if you don't feel safe. Not so with a bike! Very east to manoeuvre.

KildareMan

Personally I find them a nuisance and a danger. They are harder to see, cause cyclists to bunch up behind when hogging cycle lanes and because of those tiny wheels are stupidly unstable. Cyclists are paragons of virtue in comparison.

Garibaldi?

The same principle as cycling, driving and walking. Careful people will be ok. Reckless types will put themselves and others at risk!

bigslick

Was travelling home on my M365 yesterday evening around Grand Canal Dock and turned a corner to find a Gardai van with 5-6 gardai out on the roads seemingly guiding cars. I hopped off well away from them, folded up scooter and carried up road.

Gardai approaches me and asked if that was an electric scooter. I said yes it is. He said they are illegal, ill have to fine you and confiscate it. I said for what its legal to own surely no? This seemed to stump him a bit and he said, "well I wouldnt be so sure of that". He called over another colleague, who looked at him, me and then the scooter. He asked his colleague if he saw me using the scooter, he said no, he looked at me (bear in mind im holding my helmet) and said, "Youre fine, go on".

Is a bit frustrating that we dont have an answer from Dept. Transport on their review of these. As many here have stated we dont mind regulation (license, tax, insurance etc) where reasonable, but currently we all fear interactions as per above and potential confiscation of scooter.

rubadub

https://extra.ie/2019/06/10/news/irish-news/government-regulation-of-e-scooters-on-irish-roads-could-now-be-on-the-way

10/06/2019

A major report examining the potential to legislate for the use of e-scooters on Irish roads is complete and will be submitted to the Government this week, Extra.ie can reveal.

The Road Safety Authority has been researching how e-scooters and other vehicles like them are regulated in other countries, particularly in the EU, and is now due to advise the Department of Transport on the matter.

reading this below the writers don't seem to have done much research!

Because most e-scooters are powered by rechargeable electric motors and are programmed not to exceed speeds of 26km/h, most avoid a designation of a mechanically-propelled vehicle because they require a kickoff to start. This puts them in the same category as bicycles and electric bicycles and means they do not require insurance or a licence to operate on public roads.

...Ghost...

rubadub wrote: »

https://extra.ie/2019/06/10/news/irish-news/government-regulation-of-e-scooters-on-irish-roads-could-now-be-on-the-way



reading this below the writers don't seem to have done much research!

Because most e-scooters are powered by rechargeable electric motors and are programmed not to exceed speeds of 26km/h, most avoid a designation of a mechanically-propelled vehicle because they require a kickoff to start. This puts them in the same category as bicycles and electric bicycles and means they do not require insurance or a licence to operate on public roads.

A lot of people have argued this very thing. Are you suggesting they have not done much research because they have put forward a view you disagree with, or was there something else that brought you to that conclusion?

Johnboy1951

...Ghost... wrote: »

A lot of people have argued this very thing. Are you suggesting they have not done much research because they have put forward a view you disagree with, or was there something else that brought you to that conclusion?

As I understand it that very point is not at all settled, and the guards are applying the opposite view.

So it does seem, to me, strange that this should be stated as if it is fact.

In addition I understand that powered bicycles that do not require human effort to continue moving, are not in the category that is mentioned in the quote.

EDIT

Having read the article it seems to me that the quote in question is just the opinion of the writer and not attributed to any spokesperson of the RSA and not an excerpt of the report.

rubadub

...Ghost... wrote: »

Are you suggesting they have not done much research because they have put forward a view you disagree with, or was there something else that brought you to that conclusion?

They have not put in much research since this "push start" nonsense has been sorted by the DOT and then the RSA weeks ago. It was always clear to many in the first place, whenever the "believers" were questioned about modifying other vehicles you never got any reasonable reply.

rubadub wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/e-scooter-business-says-sales-down-over-50-due-to-confusion-over-legality-1.3875124

E-scooter business says sales down ‘over 50%’ due to confusion over legality
Department of Transport says e-scooters not allowed on public roads, fines may be issued

...When asked about the legality of e-scooters that require a degree of physical propulsion before a motor can start, a spokesman for the Department of Transport compared e-scooters to a certain category of e-bicycles.

The spokesman said some e-bikes “require continuous effort on the part of the cyclist [and] are considered to be pedal cycles” because “the engine is not the means of propulsion, but an aid to the user”.

Other e-bicycles “that can be exclusively propelled by the motor are classified in EU law as low-performance mopeds” and are subject to Road Traffic legislation, with the user obliged to have tax, insurance and an appropriate driving licence where the vehicle is to be used in a public place.

He said e-scooters, similar to pedal-assisted cycles, “do not require continuous effort on the part of the user, and are therefore considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles”.

The "continuous effort" is key, as many unscrupulous sellers have been been making laughably disingenuous claims that the gardai & RSA have made it absolutely 100% clear that they are legal if they need a push start.

I am surprised sales have not dropped more, at least some customers are not being duped/conned by any dodgy sellers telling them there is no potential issue at all.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

What is the law on e-bikes, pedelecs or battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, or whether it
requires an initial push start, the rules are:
 If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue without you pedalling or
scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
 Under Road Traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that
apply to other vehicles. Therefore it must be roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured.
 The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet.

...Ghost...

rubadub wrote: »

They have not put in much research since this "push start" nonsense has been sorted by the DOT and then the RSA weeks ago. It was always clear to many in the first place, whenever the "believers" were questioned about modifying other vehicles you never got any reasonable reply.

I can't comment on their research, or lack thereof, as I genuinely don't know what (if anything) they have looked at.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

What is the law on e-bikes, pedelecs or battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, or whether it
requires an initial push start, the rules are:
 If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue without you pedalling or
scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
 Under Road Traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that
apply to other vehicles. Therefore it must be roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured.
 The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet.

That was very recently changed. I hazard a guess they only did this because of all the enquiries they were receiving about this. However, the RSA opinion is not the law on it, as has been pointed out numerous times by the "non-believers".

Lets hope the regulation comes quickly and is in line with most of our euro family.

quarryman

KildareMan wrote: »

because of those tiny wheels are stupidly unstable.

Just wondering how many miles you’ve done on a scooter to come to that conclusion?

antodeco

KildareMan wrote: »

Personally I find them a nuisance and a danger. They are harder to see, cause cyclists to bunch up behind when hogging cycle lanes and because of those tiny wheels are stupidly unstable. Cyclists are paragons of virtue in comparison.

Only time I've ever had cyclists behind me was when I was stuck behind a slow pedalling cyclist and didn't over take as it wasn't safe to do so. Also, mine has front and rear lights, I have a hisvis helmet with lights front and rear. I'd argue that alot of cyclists are harder to see (not all of them).

There's a certain baader-meinhoff effect here I feel. You are noticing more "dangerous eScooters" because you are looking out for them, versus not paying attention to the percentage of cyclists who could fall into the same category

prinzeugen

...Ghost... wrote: »

I can't comment on their research, or lack thereof, as I genuinely don't know what (if anything) they have looked at.



That was very recently changed. I hazard a guess they only did this because of all the enquiries they were receiving about this. However, the RSA opinion is not the law on it, as has been pointed out numerous times by the "non-believers".

Lets hope the regulation comes quickly and is in line with most of our euro family.

What the RSA said on this is correct. It always has been as I and many others have been saying here for yonks. Its about time that they had someone read the Road Traffic Act.

E-scooters are illegal on the road and will continue to be illegal until the Road Traffic Act is changed.

There is no grey area etc, etc. This is not an "interpretation" of the law. It is fact.

KildareMan

quarryman wrote: »

Just wondering how many miles you’ve done on a scooter to come to that conclusion?

Simple physics and 30 years riding motorcycles and longer on bicycles.

McGiver

Just been in Prague. Lime scooters at every corner. Apparently legal, even though I didn't ask anyone explicitly.

quarryman

KildareMan wrote: »

Simple physics and 30 years riding motorcycles and longer on bicycles.

So you’ve not used a scooter yet.

And yet you feel they are more of a danger than a motorbike. Hilarious.

KildareMan

Not going to try one on the road because that would be illegal. What's hilarious are those who think it's ok to use a powered vehicle on the roads without training, insurance, license etc etc etc. The fact you think a motorcycle is more dangerous than a (really) small wheeled scooter shows your complete ignorance and I'd throw your question back at you - so you've not used a motorcycle yet.

Casshern88

Someone commented above about scooters congesting cycle lanes. I currently cycle I keep a decent pace when commuting around the City. I am by no means a slow cyclist and I regularly have scooters out pace me and overtake me. I have never once been "stuck behind one".

I'm based in Dublin city center I see on average 3-5 every day. Personality I'll be buying one the second the law is cleared up (hopefully with a positive result ).