Short term lets now half of Dublin rental market, anti landlord measures bite back

handlemaster

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/its-absolutely-scandalous-protesters-at-ideal-homes-exhibition-target-sponsors-tsb-over-sale-of-mortgages-to-vultures-36829774.html


this is clearly a response to anti landlord measures coming into play. Im glad to see some landlords are taking control of their properties and ultimately futures

Samuel T. Cogley

Going Airbnb for exactly that reason. (And the oodles of lovely cash). People want proper, large scale professional LL's - so be it. Rent off a REIT.

Dyr

Anti landlord legislation? You mean easy money and lots of it

Mrs OBumble

Irish journalists display innumeracy yet again.

Short term lets need to be advertised every week. Long term lets are advertised when there's a chance of tenant - typically every six months or more.

So comparing numbers of ads is totally meaningless.

Eod100

handlemaster wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/its-absolutely-scandalous-protesters-at-ideal-homes-exhibition-target-sponsors-tsb-over-sale-of-mortgages-to-vultures-36829774.html


this is clearly a response to anti landlord measures coming into play. Im glad to see some landlords are taking control of their properties and ultimately futures

Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?

Samuel T. Cogley

Eod100 wrote: »

Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?

Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?

handlemaster

Bambi wrote: »

Anti landlord legislation? You mean easy money and lots of it

yea.. so your doing it so ?

handlemaster

Eod100 wrote: »

Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?

not at all but dont expect the private sector to pay for a social project

Eod100

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?

Who said anything about subsidising people? And that's exactly what's happening at the moment, tenants subsidising landlords through inflated rents and through state paying millions vis housing assistance payments. And idea of taxes paying for housing infrastructure is hardly a radical concept, that's what taxes are for

Samuel T. Cogley

Eod100 wrote: »

Who said anything about subsidising people? And that's exactly what's happening at the moment, tenants subsidising landlords through inflated rents and through state paying millions vis housing assistance payments. And idea of taxes paying for housing infrastructure is hardly a radical concept, that's what taxes are for

LL's are being expected to subsidise tenants rather than charge the market rate. If the state wants social housing then it should build it.

CalamariFritti

Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day. It's crippling an entire generation, taking advantage basically. And yes the government is complicit. It's nothing but funnelling tax money towards property owners and wrecking an entire generation of young people in the process. And yes I know the tax that is being paid back on the profits aint small either. Its a stupid circle all in the name of growth and 'the market'.

While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.

Samuel T. Cogley

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day.

If you go to sell your house should you charge the market value or let someone have it on the cheap?

It's a moot point anyway - small time LL's are leaving the market - good luck in getting REITs to agree to rent controls.

kirving

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day.

If you go to sell your house should you charge the market value or let someone have it on the cheap?

It's a moot point anyway - small time LL's are leaving the market - good luck in getting REITs to agree to rent controls.

It's all very well talking about Market Rate and subsidising people, but the current level is absolutely unsustainable.

Some landlords are in difficulty, fair enough, but others are doing extraordinarily well during to the current situation.

The large scale investors in property aren't necessarily interested in making high profit margins. 5-10% profit, and the resulting stable economy is very attractive to banks, insurance companies, governments, ect.

A private landlord just can't afford can't take the risk to invest in property at only 10% profit margin while big funds jump at the chance.

Now up to the government to make the country attractive to such funds if private landlords are being driven out.

ted1

Eod100 wrote: »

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?

Who said anything about subsidising people? And that's exactly what's happening at the moment, tenants subsidising landlords through inflated rents and through state paying millions vis housing assistance payments. And idea of taxes paying for housing infrastructure is hardly a radical concept, that's what taxes are for

And during the recession tenants had cheap rent. Swings and roundabouts.

What this is about, is that after 6 months you have no choice but to let the tenant stay for 6 years.
You can’t evict a bad tenant or non paying tenant. You can’t refuse HAP so are been dictated who you can trust with your substantial investments

ted1

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day. It's crippling an entire generation, taking advantage basically. And yes the government is complicit. It's nothing but funnelling tax money towards property owners and wrecking an entire generation of young people in the process. And yes I know the tax that is being paid back on the profits aint small either. Its a stupid circle all in the name of growth and 'the market'.

While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.

It’s supply and demand. Blame the government and the IDA they need to ensure there adequate housing for the people they are creating jobs for. It’s not the Landlords job

the_syco

CalamariFritti wrote: »

While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.

If the tenant stops paying, the landlord doesn't get paid rent, and can lose many months rent. The LL will also have to pay legal fees to have them evicted. If there is any damage done to the property, the tenant may pay the LL back at 5 euros a week from their social welfare, if the LL finds them when they move out.

LL's are told to treat the house like a business. Renting it on AirBnB is treating the house like a business.

TSQ

Pauln90 wrote: »

Exactly

There is nothing easy about running an airbnb operation. After all expenses are paid I reckon I would probably get about the same amount as you would get currently renting at the top (admittedly) of today's market. But the control over who stays in your property, reviews of the tenants posted by other hosts, and the Liability that accrues to the renter for any damage done, more than outweighs the extra work involved.
And while all this vitriol is directed at the small time landlord who does short lets, where is all the moral indignation at the granting of planning permission to institutional investors building apartments for the holiday rental market and bypassing the standards set for normal residential apartment developments. It seems it's ok for the likes of staycity to designate entire apartment blocks as holiday lets, but your small-time time landlord investing his life savings in a single property is vilified

beauf

Kevin Irving wrote: »

It's all very well talking about Market Rate and subsidising people, but the current level is absolutely unsustainable.

Some landlords are in difficulty, fair enough, but others are doing extraordinarily well during to the current situation.....

Wasn't the article about selling off non performing loans? I don't see why its b2L specifically.

Kevin Irving wrote: »

The large scale investors in property aren't necessarily interested in making high profit margins. 5-10% profit, and the resulting stable economy is very attractive to banks, insurance companies, governments, ect.

...and yet thats exactly why the Tyrrelstown amendment was introduced...also they tend to focus on the high end, not the low end. Which kind suggests they are only interested in high profit margins.

Kevin Irving wrote: »

A private landlord just can't afford can't take the risk to invest in property at only 10% profit margin while big funds jump at the chance.

Now up to the government to make the country attractive to such funds if private landlords are being driven out.

Its more about the low tax they pay. The issue for the smaller landlords is not simply a low profit margin (if thats the case). Its the risk of big losses from no protection. Those losses are not significant for large investor and they pay less tax.

I'm not sure how they could make the country more attractive to outside investment.

AfterLife

I'm trying to rent a place in Dublin City centre for a month in August and there isn't really that much available. There's a lots of Airbnb's but it's very hard to find somewhere for the whole month.

beauf

Anyway the issue is not LL vs Tenant. Thats just a distraction.

Its the lack of Supply.

Government provided just 20% of its planned target of rapid-build houses by the end of last year

Also how they figures are reported. http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/01/16/missing-the-target/

Yet this gets completely ignored on these forums.

Del2005

ted1 wrote: »

And during the recession tenants had cheap rent. Swings and roundabouts.

During the next recession there won't be many landlords agreeing to a rent decrease because of the current mess in the market. Why would they risk losing even more money if the government messes with the market again and again

ted1

Exactly, they can’t drop prices now as they are restricted to increasing them by 4%

4ensic15

Del2005 wrote: »

During the next recession there won't be many landlords agreeing to a rent decrease because of the current mess in the market. Why would they risk losing even more money if the government messes with the market again and again

If the market rent drops, landlords will have no choice but to drop. When a tenant can get a better deal down the road, off he goes.

4ensic15

AfterLife wrote: »

I'm trying to rent a place in Dublin City centre for a month in August and there isn't really that much available. There's a lots of Airbnb's but it's very hard to find somewhere for the whole month.

What sort of a place?

godtabh

Eod100 wrote: »

Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?

It’s not the landlords responsibility to provide this. They provide a service. If then public wants reasonably affordable accommodation get the govement provide public housing.

AfterLife

4ensic15 wrote: »

What sort of a place?

1 bedroom flat. There's a few available but the prices are comical and it's the same ones advertised for the last couple of months. It would be cheaper to stay in a hotel which is probably what I will do.

ted1

AfterLife wrote: »

4ensic15 wrote: »

What sort of a place?

1 bedroom flat. There's a few available but the prices are comical and it's the same ones advertised for the last couple of months. It would be cheaper to stay in a hotel which is probably what I will do.

Try one of the student accommodation places.
UCD rent there places out during the summer as do places like apartostudent.con

the_syco

AfterLife wrote: »

1 bedroom flat. There's a few available but the prices are comical and it's the same ones advertised for the last couple of months. It would be cheaper to stay in a hotel which is probably what I will do.

I'd advise ringing the hotel, rather than doing so online if you intend to stay the month; they may be able to get you a better deal.

I assume you've looked at the short-term rental section on Daft? http://www.daft.ie/dublin/short-term-rentals/dublin-city-centre/

I wonder would a travel agent be able to help, as you'd be staying in a hotel, and they may have a search available to them for multiple hotels?

dr.fuzzenstein

Kevin Irving wrote: »

It's all very well talking about Market Rate and subsidising people, but the current level is absolutely unsustainable.

Some landlords are in difficulty, fair enough, but others are doing extraordinarily well during to the current situation.

The large scale investors in property aren't necessarily interested in making high profit margins. 5-10% profit, and the resulting stable economy is very attractive to banks, insurance companies, governments, ect.

A private landlord just can't afford can't take the risk to invest in property at only 10% profit margin while big funds jump at the chance.

Now up to the government to make the country attractive to such funds if private landlords are being driven out.

In fact it is part of the price they pay for their dominance.
High operating costs, complex and nebulous tax systems, high staff costs and massively complex and overwrought regulation, combined with paper-thin profit margins work in favour of multinationals.
While a one man or other small-time operation cannot make a living that way and are practically being excluded from the market, a well-organised and well-staffed multinational giant has the staffing levels to deal with senseless and brainless red-tape and has the sheer business volume to turn a sufficient profit on even the tiniest of margins.
Since the market is then being carved up between a few large players, it is relatively stable, the state makes lots of money through way too high taxes and the customer practically has no choice and ends up paying for it all.

beauf

They aren't going for tiny margins, that can seen in the types of property they are going for.

Del2005

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Since the market is then being carved up between a few large players, it is relatively stable, the state makes lots of money through way too high taxes and the customer practically has no choice and ends up paying for it all.

And when the cartel has finally done the government's wish and driven the private landlords out we'll see massive changes in the rental sector and they won't be good for tenants. They have the money and power to change a lot and they won't accept the current tenant biased system.

Cookie_Monster

beauf wrote: »

Anyway the issue is not LL vs Tenant. Thats just a distraction.

Its the lack of Supply.
.

Lack of supply is not the ultimate issue either, it's not like a vast proportion of existing stock has simply disappeared. Increased demand due to increased population is the real issue but nothing is being done to tackle this either.

You cannot simply build more and more houses forever to keep up with an ever increasing population...

beauf

Rental stock has disappeared. It's changed into something else. It's not a massive change, but it's significant enough so that it just can't keep up with increasing demand.

You are right about population though. I seem to remember While we have decrease of Irish nationals through emigration we have net increase of population though immigration of non Irish nationals, something like 80k per year. I'm open to correction on the specifics it a while since I read about it.

The other side is govt has done very little to increase supply in real terms.

The_Conductor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Lack of supply is not the ultimate issue either, it's not like a vast proportion of existing stock has simply disappeared. Increased demand due to increased population is the real issue but nothing is being done to tackle this either.

You cannot simply build more and more houses forever to keep up with an ever increasing population...

Its part of the issue- the other part- is a lack of any will on the part of government and local authorities to better manage the existing housing stock that we have.

E.g. property tax is based solely on the value of property- nothing else. In almost any other country- its based on a formula which includes the number of habitable rooms in the property, the square footage of the property, the number of people dwelling in the property- *and* the value of the property....... Until such time as we bring a similar mechanism into play here- people will see it as normal to have a few extra bedrooms- or not to trade up and down as required- sure there is no imperative to do so. Allied to this- we have no real solutions for our elderly or retired members of society- there are no retirement solutions that you have elsewhere- so they sit in big cold empty houses- and have to get subsidised heating etc- while families less than a mile down the road are crammed into 2-3 bed apartments sharing 2-3 to a room- because they have no other option........... There has to be a mechanism to get the family- into the family home- and the retired person/couple- into a properly serviced apartment with access to the services, facilities and amenities that they now need at this stage in their lives..........

I hated the Troika- as much as the next person walking down the street- but by god- by giving the government a roadmap that they had to adhere to- it meant that the government could implement unpalatable measures- and do their usual finger pointing exercise to the great unwashed masses- its not our fault- its those faceless bureaucrats who made us do it........... Well- we have a shedload of measures that we now need to get out the gate- and we need the government to stop playing school yard politics- and get a move-on. Inviting the IMF back for an unprecedented programme- when we're not part of a bailout programme- was a good start- but more pertinently- we need a credible roadmap for the future- that is cognisant of where we are now at- and where we want to be in the future- and takes steps to get from A to Z- cognisant of EU and other obligations- and bumps in the road- such as Brexit.

The governments 40 year development programme- is a good first step- but it has been missold badly to the public- to the extent that its toxic before it ever got out the door (and the manner in which it included pre-existing infrastructure in its 'deliverables' was a bit of a joke).

Us Irish are uniquely incapable of governing ourselves- despite having a uniquely high number of public representatives. Perhaps our system is at fault?

The_Conductor

Vis-a-vis short term lets now making up half the available rental stock in Dublin- a better question to ask- is how is the market for short-term lets in Dublin changing?

E.g. I don't believe its grown very much- and I also don't believe that the majority of units are available on a fulltime basis. For example- I can tell you 4 people I work with- who let their home on airbnb in Dublin most weekends- sometimes for cold hard cash- sometimes as a swap for an apartment or another property in another city. 2 of the 4 are non-nationals who have moved here permanently- all own their own property.

Yes- there are some landlords who have taken rental properties off the market- and are letting them on short term lets- I would argue they are very much a minority of the short term letting market- a growing cohort certainly- but not the large number that everyone imagines them to be.

I was recently approached by a group of people from an apartment complex in Galway- some owners/some tenants- all of whom are looking for short term accommodation in Dublin- for Race week in Galway- and they figure that as a group they can mint it by letting the building for the week (its 12 separate units- not massive- and they were able to come together and agree this). I think this may happen more in future- people will recognise that airbnb is a mechanism for monetising their accommodation for peak times- and it gives them an opportunity to have a break somewhere else- and make a profit out of it.............

Airbnb- is not the bogeyman its painted to be- sure- there are a growing number of units coming off the rental market and into airbnb- but its a small number- because the management of airbnb units (cleaning schedules etc) doesn't suit most people (though some people make it work- and very profitably).

The elephant in the corner- is the number of small scale landlords- fleeing the sector entirely and selling off their units- as regulation has become too impossible to deal with.

beauf

The_Conductor wrote: »

...- as regulation has become too impossible to deal with.

"Lack of protection and high risks" IMO regulation is fine if its fair and equal.

dr.fuzzenstein

Would I be right in guessing that high tax on rental imcome and difficulties in removing bad tennants are the 2 major problems facing LLs in Ireland?
How much of a deal-breaker is tennant protection aparot from those 2?

Assetbacked

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?

REITs or institutional landlords do not pay tax on their rental income subject to complying with certain conditions such as (I understand) returning 85% of the rental income to their shareholders (which could be other funds and big institutions). There are swathes of apartment blocks controlled by such landlords who do not have to pay any tax on their rental income.

Perhaps closing this ridiculous loophole and using the money to try to improve the market in some way could be beneficial. But wait, maybe the REITs could fight back by stifling supply even further; has the government lost control of the property market?

Andy Magic

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day. It's crippling an entire generation, taking advantage basically. And yes the government is complicit. It's nothing but funnelling tax money towards property owners and wrecking an entire generation of young people in the process. And yes I know the tax that is being paid back on the profits aint small either. Its a stupid circle all in the name of growth and 'the market'.

While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.

Bingo, the greed of a generation over another is sickening in this country

beauf

Andy Magic wrote: »

Bingo, the greed of a generation over another is sickening in this country

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Wanderer78

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

its clearly obvious, theres something fundamentally wrong with our housing policies and market, as they seem to fail most, including landlords and tenents

beauf

Its a problem thats common across the world, and at different times over history. Its not a new issue. Even if its the worst in the history of the state.

Lots of us will have had experiences of living in much worst conditions than exist now. Some people though have it very bad at the moment.

Dyr

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

I don't remember immigration and an economy on the ups being factors when the previous generations were leaving.

You kinda want to hold onto your citizenry, its a big part of being a functioning nation state rather than an entitlement problem

Andy Magic

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

Typical selfish response.. Maybe if some of these landlords sold their properties there might be some available for this generation to buy

beauf

Andy Magic wrote: »

Typical selfish response.. Maybe if some of these landlords sold their properties there might be some available for this generation to buy

Will they then be selfish if they own the property, or is it only selfish when someone else owns it.

beauf

Bambi wrote: »

I don't remember immigration and an economy on the ups being factors when the previous generations were leaving.

You kinda want to hold onto your citizenry, its a big part of being a functioning nation state rather than an entitlement problem

Its still about affordability. Either unemployment or high rents.

The point remains. People moved to where it was affordable.

dr.fuzzenstein

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

One could argue that the continued exodus of the brightest and smartest over several centuries could have adverse effects on the country and may not be regarded as a positive thing. But sure, what do I know, the country is in great shape!
This is not blaming landlords, but the established ruling classes.
The above situation has ensured that, while the most capable get out while they can, the ruling class by virtue of being deeply embedded in the fabric of industry, government, administrative and legislative, have carved up this little country for the profit of their small but elite circle.
That means that for the rest it's "if you don't like it, fcuk off".
But if you think that brain-drain is a good or positive thing for Ireland, how so?

beauf

I just making the point you have to realise when something is affordable, viable and when it isn't and adjust accordingly.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Subtle

Andy Magic wrote: »

Bingo, the greed of a generation over another is sickening in this country

This. I see greed everywhere, but at the same time I can appreciate why everyone in that situation is jumping on this gravy train. But let's call it what it is.

Granted, there are issues wrt tenancy protection laws being perhaps too strong, but there's really only a tiny percentage of bad tenants out there. And in my opinion, it's pretty easy to avoid them in the first place. I wish landlords would stop using this as an excuse to justify the extortionate rents, kindof like an insurance premium. Insurance they'll never have to pay out on...