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Atheist voting No [See mod note in OP]

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  • 14-05-2018 4:12pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭


    Many people seem to think the pro-lifers are only the rabidly religious who want force their religion upon others. In my case, it's simply a values question. When does the right to a human being's life begin. When did the right to your life begin?

    Currently, in the event of repeal, the government is planning on introducing legislation which will allow the killing of human life up to twelve weeks gestation for ANY reason. After twelve weeks the proposed legislation allows for abortion in cases of risk to the mother's mental and physical health. Note that physical health is not defined and mental health is be treated as interchangeable with physical health.

    In the event the mother's life is in danger, abortion is justified, but it is not the intentional ending of one life, but the unfortunate consequence of providing the medical treatment necessary to save the mother's life.

    The 8th amendment allows for this: "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

    The vast vast vast majority of pregnancies are consensual and healthy and Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world to have children. This is the attempt of the Yes campaign to introduced abortion on demand in the name of female empowerment and progress.

    Vote No
    Mod note:

    There are some interesting debates going on here but I think a quick reminder of the forum rules is required:

    1. Keep to the topic. This thread is about abortion. If you want to discuss the Cervical testing scandal or other issues please do so in another thread.

    2. Please be civil. Obviously people can respond to another's post, but don't respond to the poster themselves. Examples include referring to a poster's other opinions, checking their post counts, aggressive and personal comments etc. Any more of this will be dealt with by sanctions including bans if that is what it takes to keep the debate going.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭Afollower


    The 8th amendment allows for this: "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

    Tell that to the family of the late Savita Halappanavar! :(


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Pete29 wrote: »
    The vast vast vast majority of pregnancies are consensual and healthy...
    I'm sure it's a great comfort to anyone with a non-consensual or health-threatening pregnancy to know they're in a minority.
    ...and Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world to have children.
    I'm sure that's a great comfort to Praveen Halappanavar.
    This is the attempt of the Yes campaign to introduced abortion on demand in the name of female empowerment and progress.
    Goodness, we wouldn't want female empowerment and progress, would we?
    Vote No
    I'll be voting yes, thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Personally I don't get wrapped up in the very complicated issues. I just ask myself a simple question - who has the right to decide if they have a baby or not? Assuming that both prospective parents have their own, private conversation (which again is no-one's business but their own), then ultimately it's the choice of the woman who is pregnant. The change isn't insisting every pregnant woman HAS TO have an abortion. Its just giving her the choice. lets be honest, it happens anyway, regardless, so voting No isn't going to stop Irish women having abortions. it just makes their own lives more difficult.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Pete29 wrote: »
    Currently, in the event of repeal, the government is planning on introducing legislation which will allow the killing of human life up to twelve weeks gestation for ANY reason.

    It's not a human life, it's a foetus. Typical emotionally maniplulative bull**** from the No side because you really don't have anything else to hang your arguements on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Haven't decided 100% yet, am still on the fence on it.

    However, I've not yet received a polling card, and am.Wondering if i should have received it by now?

    I moved house last year, so am wondering if that has anything to Do with it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Pete29


    It's not a human life, it's a foetus. Typical emotionally maniplulative bull**** from the No side because you really don't have anything else to hang your arguements on.

    It's contains a human genome and it's life. Ergo, it's Human Life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Pete29 wrote: »
    In my case, it's simply a values question.

    When does the right to a human being's life begin?
    When did the right to your life begin?

    In everyone's case it's a values question. You are aware that people have differing values right?

    Stop trying to impose yours on others. Vote Yes and let everyone decide based on their own values.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 Sintend


    You should have received your polling card at this stage. Mine came last week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    Pete29 wrote: »
    Many people seem to think the pro-lifers are only the rabidly religious who want force their religion upon others. In my case, it's simply a values question. When does the right to a human being's life begin. When did the right to your life begin?

    Ultimately, what difference does your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) make?

    If you want to vote No, then vote No, that's your right.

    I'm an atheist & I will be 100% voting Yes. Not because of the fact that I'm an atheist, or because of my values, but because ultimately, its not my right to tell anyone how to live their life, or force my values on them.
    Pete29 wrote: »
    The vast vast vast majority of pregnancies are consensual and healthy and Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world to have children. This is the attempt of the Yes campaign to introduced abortion on demand in the name of female empowerment and progress.

    What in the name of God (pardon the phrase ;)) is the point you're making here? Repealing the 8th has absolutely nothing to do with people who have consensual pregnancies. Do you think that there will be evil bogey-man hanging around street corners grabbing pregnant women & forcing them to have abortions?

    You do understand the concept of "choice" I assume, given you chose to not believe in any God.

    Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, it means you believe each individual has the right to choose what is the best life-decision for themselves, not for someone else to force a decision on them because it doesn't fit their personal values.
    Pete29 wrote: »
    Vote No

    No!


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It's not a human life, it's a foetus. Typical emotionally maniplulative bull**** from the No side because you really don't have anything else to hang your arguements on.

    Hi folks. I know this is an emotive subject for a lot of people, but please heed the charter and keep it civil. You can make you point without getting personal.

    Thanks


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Pete29 wrote: »
    It's contains a human genome and it's life. Ergo, it's Human Life.

    I don't think the issue is whether its human or not. I think that's pretty much undisputed.
    The issue is whether it should have a right to life equal to that of the woman in which it resides.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Sintend wrote: »
    You should have received your polling card at this stage. Mine came last week.

    Ok thanks. I will contact the guy who bought my old place and see if they arrived with him.

    Next question, they're not essential to cast a vote are they?


  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Pete29


    Afollower wrote: »
    The 8th amendment allows for this: "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

    Tell that to the family of the late Savita Halappanavar! :(

    A tragic case, but not caused by the 8th. She was having a miscarriage, miscarriages on rare occasion have the possibility of causing the contraction of sepsis. In her case a particularly strong strain of anti-biotic resistant E.Coli which was mismanaged by the hospital staff that was treating here and was classed as "medical misadventure".

    Public policies should reflect the vast majority of society and cases, not a tiny minority.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭Mrs Shuttleworth


    I think the truth of this situation lies somewhere in the middle between the two poles on offer. I'm not happy with what either camp is promoting.

    If the referendum is lost the Government is solely to blame.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 Sintend


    Ok thanks. I will contact the guy who bought my old place and see if they arrived with him.

    Next question, they're not essential to cast a vote are they?
    No you can still vote without it once you bring i.d. like a passport, driver's licence, public services card or a student card.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    I think the truth of this situation lies somewhere in the middle between the two poles on offer. I'm not happy with what either camp is promoting.

    If the referendum is lost the Government is solely to blame.

    Paddy Power seem to have higher odds (at 10/3) of it passing.

    Currently a no vote is sitting at 5/4 odds.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Pete29 wrote: »
    It's contains a human genome and it's life. Ergo, it's Human Life.

    If I run my fingers across the inside of my cheek I will have loose cells containing the same info. Are they human life?

    If you have the choice to save one 5 year old child or a million frozen embryos, what would you do?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Im on the fence too , but leaning towards yes

    Obviously I would be against abortion on demand and I still think its a life

    On the other hand my beliefs should not infringe on someone else freedom

    I can only think logically and philiosphically

    Im never going to be the one in this position but my daughter might

    So im probably going to vote Yes


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Pete29 wrote: »
    A tragic case, but not caused by the 8th. She was having a miscarriage, miscarriages on rare occasion have the possibility of causing the contraction of sepsis. In her case a particularly strong strain of anti-biotic resistant E.Coli which was mismanaged by the hospital staff that was treating here and was classed as "medical misadventure".

    Public policies should reflect the vast majority of society and cases, not a tiny minority.

    Incorrect.

    She was miscarrying and hospitalised for a whole week before she died. She had already been told that her pregnancy wasn't viable but was made wait for nature to take its course with no medical intervention.
    She requested an abortion at the beginning of the week, when they were certain there was no hope for her baby.
    She wanted to speed up the inevitable. She wanted to begin grieving for her lost child.
    Keeping her there for a week while her baby slowly died was in itself a cruelty.

    If she had been granted an abortion when she first requested one, the sepsis could never have occurred, and the medical mismanagement wouldn't have happened.

    We would never have heard of her and she'd probably have gone on to have more babies.
    Savita didn't want an abortion, she wanted a baby.
    And what happened to her could happen to any pregnant woman with the current laws.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    I'm an atheist and I am not a fan of abortion but I will still be voting yes, because this referendum is about allowing people to make their own choices and not forcing one on them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,168 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Pete29 wrote: »
    Many people seem to think the pro-lifers are only the rabidly religious who want force their religion upon others. In my case, it's simply a values question. When does the right to a human being's life begin. When did the right to your life begin?

    Currently, in the event of repeal, the government is planning on introducing legislation which will allow the killing of human life up to twelve weeks gestation for ANY reason. After twelve weeks the proposed legislation allows for abortion in cases of risk to the mother's mental and physical health. Note that physical health is not defined and mental health is be treated as interchangeable with physical health.

    In the event the mother's life is in danger, abortion is justified, but it is not the intentional ending of one life, but the unfortunate consequence of providing the medical treatment necessary to save the mother's life.

    The 8th amendment allows for this: "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

    The vast vast vast majority of pregnancies are consensual and healthy and Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world to have children. This is the attempt of the Yes campaign to introduced abortion on demand in the name of female empowerment and progress.

    Vote No


    What's the 'I'm an atheist..' all about?
    Who cares what you are. Personally I'm sick and tired of people, on both sides, telling me how they're voting and how I should vote.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭manonboard


    It's not a human life, it's a foetus. Typical emotionally maniplulative bull**** from the No side because you really don't have anything else to hang your arguements on.

    I think you are actually doing the exact thing you are accusing of. By calling it a foetus, its correct in one sense, but trying to dehumanise the life is indeed emotionally manipulative.

    I will be voting to repeal the law, because i think it will reduce suffering by the criteria i've set to measure that.

    However, why do you not consider it a human life? why is a foetus not a human life?
    This is a genuine question. I got an A in my higher level biology in school, and my understanding of the definition of life (there are a few) is that this foetus meets all the criteria.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Definitions

    I could be missing something, but i'd like to be educated on it if i am. If not, then i think its important to point out that its a human life we are ending. Its fine to end it if we think it is ethically the best course. I currently do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭manonboard


    I think the truth of this situation lies somewhere in the middle between the two poles on offer. I'm not happy with what either camp is promoting.

    If the referendum is lost the Government is solely to blame.

    I agree with your first part. I find it delusional that each side seems to think there is a black and white answer to something this complex. There are also many people in each side that don't. I wish that was shown more.

    May i ask why you think the government is to blame if the referendum is 'lost'? Does 'lost' mean the repeal does not happen?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    It all goes back to, 'If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one'.
    It's not forced abortions, it's choice. Anyone who wants one 'on demand' can go abroad however this is about Irish women having the right to choose in their own country, not to mention any medical issues that require the procedure be carried out.
    We cannot legislate a one rule for all policy regarding this. It should be up to the person with advice, not permission, from medical professionals on a case by case.

    We are only 20 odd years since condoms became legal. Hopefully this too will pass into embarrassing history.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    I listened to a woman on Newstalk one morning last week being interviewed about how she may vote in the referendum, she said she would be voting no.

    Asked if she would like to state her reasons for intending to do so she stated that a foetus was a human life. She was pressed on this by a yes campaigner, but she made the analogy that (forgive me if this isn't word for word) that a foetus had a heartbeat, and if someone can be officially pronounced dead due to a lack of a heartbeat, why did this not apply to a foetus?


    The yes campaigner was stuck for words tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    If you don't want an abortion, then the repeal of the 8th won't have an effect on you. All you're doing by voting no is forcing your opinion on others, the vast majority of whom you don't know. Making their lives harder for no reason.

    You look after your life and let others do the same . people's reasons are their own for what they want to do and it's nothing to do with me what they do with their choices.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    I am not comfortable with abortion but I am less comfortable deciding whether another person has their choice regarding their health restricted by me voting NO. So I will be voting Yes. I believe women should have the final say own their own bodies it's that simple for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Pete29


    If I run my fingers across the inside of my cheek I will have loose cells containing the same info. Are they human life?

    If you have the choice to save one 5 year old child or a million frozen embryos, what would you do?

    No, because cheek cells when left to their natural processes do not become human infants. An implanted human embryo, when not killed, will develop into a human infant very quickly and has the right to do so in the vast majority of cases.

    You're 5 year old vs a million embryos depends on the situation define within the boundaries of the metaphor. If it's simply one dies or the other. I would choose the 5 year old.

    Question for you: If you were alone on a space ship with a friend, that last humans in existence containing a million frozen embryos that were going to populate a new planet and give rise to a new generation of humans, knowing that delivering them to the planet would end up killing your friend due to a lack of resources on the ship, Which would you choose?

    You can devise these situational ethic thought experiments to high light different values in different situations, but they don't usually apply to the most common situations, because they're both outlandish and unrealistic. Neither my metaphor or yours applies to the vast majority of pregnancies in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    manonboard wrote: »
    I agree with your first part. I find it delusional that each side seems to think there is a black and white answer to something this complex. There are also many people in each side that don't. I wish that was shown more.

    May i ask why you think the government is to blame if the referendum is 'lost'? Does 'lost' mean the repeal does not happen?

    It is black and white . You should be able to make your own choices for yourself regarding your own body and health.

    So should everyone else ......


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  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Pete29


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    I am not comfortable with abortion but I am less comfortable deciding whether another person has their choice regarding their health restricted by me voting NO. So I will be voting Yes. I believe women should have the final say own their own bodies it's that simple for me.

    The vast vast vast majority of pregnancies are consensual. We all know the main biological function of sex is reproduction. We all know there is a possibility of pregnancy when we have sex. We accept that risk when we consent to sex. Therefore, we consent to the possibility of pregnancy when we consent to sex. The choice comes before conception, not after.


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