Hip Flexors & Core

GreeBo

Hey,

I've been doing Pilates for about a year now but I dont feel I'm getting the benefit from my core that I should be.

I find it very difficult to get my hip flexors to not take over.
For example, with double leg lift or even just tabletop its my legs/hips that tire long before my core.

When doing a Pilates situp I find it almost impossible to do it without my legs lifting, indicating that my hip flexors are yet again kicking in.


Any ideas or tips from anyone who has seen/experienced similar?

freemenfitness

Leg lifts if they are the type I am picturing are a compression movement (abs and quads compress into each other). So the hip flexors will have to be involved. If they are tiring then perhaps they need some work to strengthen. However if you have been doing these for a few years it could possibly be tightness in the hip flexors.

I had to google the pilates sit up. It appears to be the top half of a hollow hold. If it is and your legs are lifting it is likely technique due to not tucking your pelvis (putting your lower back flat on the floor) then rolling up using the upper core. Again not 100% familiar with pilates more so with gymnastic movements but hopefully this will help.

GreeBo

freemenfitness wrote: »

Leg lifts if they are the type I am picturing are a compression movement (abs and quads compress into each other). So the hip flexors will have to be involved. If they are tiring then perhaps they need some work to strengthen. However if you have been doing these for a few years it could possibly be tightness in the hip flexors.

I had to google the pilates sit up. It appears to be the top half of a hollow hold. If it is and your legs are lifting it is likely technique due to not tucking your pelvis (putting your lower back flat on the floor) then rolling up using the upper core. Again not 100% familiar with pilates more so with gymnastic movements but hopefully this will help.

Thx for the reply.
This is the Pilates situp/seated rollup that I'm referring to.
I can do them at the start of the class, but if we do some at the end I either get stuck or my legs come off the ground (which is a big no-no in Pilates)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZNwIJ03fhQ

These are the leg lifts/stretches but its any of the exercises where the legs are in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRzMheJcPJ8

I dont think its that my hips are weak, on the contrary I think its issue is that they are strong and over-used.

Transform

whats your hip mobility like? Can you pass the two hip tests shown here on my video?

Couch stretch and pigeon stretch

If not that will most certainly be a big factor

GreeBo

That video doesnt want to play for me?

/edit

scratch that, seems boards.ie doenst like you passing the start time param!

GreeBo

No issues with either test, for Pigeon my leg is horizontal and Im lying on my arms on the floor.

For Couch I can have my back thigh vertical (but only if I'm actually doing it against a couch due to stiff ankles!)
I can certainly feel a stretch in the quad while doing it, but nothing outrageous.

freemenfitness

Well if you are saying that there are no mobility issues and your hips and core are strong then the other options is that it might well just be endurance or technique then. If they are strong and mobile but give out towards the end of class then that might be it.

Mellor

Double leg lift is hip flexion. Hip flexors are exactly the muscle to carry that out.
If you are doing toes to bar or similar, there will also be lumbar flexion from the abs. But probably not possible to disengage the hip flexors unless the hips joint is fixed

GreeBo

Mellor wrote: »

Double leg lift is hip flexion. Hip flexors are exactly the muscle to carry that out.
If you are doing toes to bar or similar, there will also be lumbar flexion from the abs. But probably not possible to disengage the hip flexors unless the hips joint is fixed

That seems to contradict with Pilates teaching, but I have the same issue with doing a simple table top, my hips start screaming, I've never felt my abs burn.

freemenfitness wrote: »

Well if you are saying that there are no mobility issues and your hips and core are strong then the other options is that it might well just be endurance or technique then. If they are strong and mobile but give out towards the end of class then that might be it.

Well no mobility that would seem to be involved here. I honestly don't know that my core is strong or not, my six pack is, but I don't know about the TA etc underneath.

Mellor

GreeBo wrote: »

That seems to contradict with Pilates teaching,.

In what way does it contradict Pilates?

The hip flexors are responsible for flexion of the hip. In some it's their primary function, others are weaker synergists. But those muscle are the only muscles that can flex the hip. But the ab muscles cannot flex the hip in a leg raise, physically impossible as they don't connect to the femur.

Sit up are different as the psoas (hip flexor) also connects to the spine, so it can become involved in a sit up. However, I don't think it's as simple as legs lifting = hip flexors, as leg could lift simply down to centre of gravity.

GreeBo

Mellor wrote: »

In what way does it contradict Pilates?

The hip flexors are responsible for flexion of the hip. In some it's their primary function, others are weaker synergists. But those muscle are the only muscles that can flex the hip. But the ab muscles cannot flex the hip in a leg raise, physically impossible as they don't connect to the femur.

Sit up are different as the psoas (hip flexor) also connects to the spine, so it can become involved in a sit up. However, I don't think it's as simple as legs lifting = hip flexors, as leg could lift simply down to centre of gravity.

Sorry, I'm not saying the abs lift the legs, Pilates teaches that had the core rather than the hips.

Pilates is not about flexing the hips, it's about rolling the spine.
In a sit up you can keep your back straight and flex the hip to get up but it's doing nothing for your core. Or you can roll your spine off the floor and curl your body, bringing your chest closer to you hips until you are up.

They are two very different ways and using very different muscles to get into s seated position.

At least that's my understanding!

Mellor

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not saying the abs lift the legs, Pilates teaches that had the core rather than the hips.
...
At least that's my understanding!

I think your understanding is slightly misguided tbh.
I was refering to leg raises, not sit ups as it's a more simple movement. But it still apples to a situp.

In a sit up you can keep your back straight and flex the hip to get up but it's doing nothing for your core. Or you can roll your spine off the floor and curl your body, bringing your chest closer to you hips until you are up.

They are two very different ways and using very different muscles to get into s seated position.

Using your core in a situp will roll your spine towards your pelvis (like a crunch) But that's as far as it can go, due to the attachment of the muscles.
You can't pull yourself fully up into a seated position using you core, it's physically impossible. Coming up full requires the pelvis to rotate also - closing the hip angle. This is still hip flexion even though the legs are stationary.

Mink

Don't know if this is much help but when I'm doing leg raises, I have to tuck my hands under the end of my butt to stop my back arching. If I keep good form I feel the burn in both hip flexors and abs.

When I did Pilates, I always felt it in my abs (and flexors) for table top and Pilates sit ups, but we were constantly told to consciously engage our core before starting the excercise - so your spine is in the correct position and your core is ready to do the work.

As soon as my back starts arching, it all falls asunder for me.

You may already be doing all of that. There is some other stuff like mind-muscle connection. I've not looked into it myself but works for some to reset and get the right muscle of the group working harder.

GreeBo

Mink wrote: »

Don't know if this is much help but when I'm doing leg raises, I have to tuck my hands under the end of my butt to stop my back arching. If I keep good form I feel the burn in both hip flexors and abs.

When I did Pilates, I always felt it in my abs (and flexors) for table top and Pilates sit ups, but we were constantly told to consciously engage our core before starting the excercise - so your spine is in the correct position and your core is ready to do the work.

As soon as my back starts arching, it all falls asunder for me.

You may already be doing all of that. There is some other stuff like mind-muscle connection. I've not looked into it myself but works for some to reset and get the right muscle of the group working harder.

Our instructor would flip if we used our hands like this as she says it's cheating!

Thanks anyway!

Transform

GreeBo wrote: »

That seems to contradict with Pilates teaching, but I have the same issue with doing a simple table top, my hips start screaming, I've never felt my abs burn.


Well no mobility that would seem to be involved here. I honestly don't know that my core is strong or not, my six pack is, but I don't know about the TA etc underneath.

with all of this i would ask to what end?

Maybe the solution is not to get bogged down on one exercise and try a range of core exercises that YOURE able to connect with a bit more e.g. pallof presses, toes pointed plank etc

My rule is that if a client cant get a movement right within about 2mins i will regress to move on to another movement they can connect with a bit more.

Overall, core work is done to allow you the safety you need to perform the important movements that give a big bang for your buck - squats, deadlifts, pull ups, push ups.

Ive worked with lots of clients that came to me with lots of pilates and/or yoga classes in their background yet still have unaddressed poor mobility and/or cant perform a single proper push up or pull up.

Keep in mind that the "core" starts at the shoulder and ends at the knees, its not just the abs alone. Id add that breathing and pelvic positioning is also a big component of this.

This is my guide to understanding core work and again the movements selected will vary according to the individual and their limitations or lack of -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fr8TWtrnLI

GreeBo

Transform wrote: »

with all of this i would ask to what end?

Maybe the solution is not to get bogged down on one exercise and try a range of core exercises that YOURE able to connect with a bit more e.g. pallof presses, toes pointed plank etc

My rule is that if a client cant get a movement right within about 2mins i will regress to move on to another movement they can connect with a bit more.

Overall, core work is done to allow you the safety you need to perform the important movements that give a big bang for your buck - squats, deadlifts, pull ups, push ups.

Ive worked with lots of clients that came to me with lots of pilates and/or yoga classes in their background yet still have unaddressed poor mobility and/or cant perform a single proper push up or pull up.

Keep in mind that the "core" starts at the shoulder and ends at the knees, its not just the abs alone. Id add that breathing and pelvic positioning is also a big component of this.

This is my guide to understanding core work and again the movements selected will vary according to the individual and their limitations or lack of -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fr8TWtrnLI

I do general Pilates & Yoga for no real reason other than to improve strength & flexibility.

I also do golf specific strength & mobility training (TPI - http://www.mytpi.com/ ) which involves moves like Pallof Press, Squats, Lunges etc.
I guess I just dont want to waste my time also doing Pilates if I'm not working the correct muscles.:o
It's not 1:1 Pilates so I dont/wont get to change the movements that we do, that said there is a broad mixture, its just that legs in the air forms a basis for a lot of them!

Mink

GreeBo wrote: »

Our instructor would flip if we used our hands like this as she says it's cheating!

Thanks anyway!

God my back arches uncontrollably if don't have either my hands under bum or above my head hanging onto a pole.

.... which sounds terribly dirty if taken out of context.

GreeBo

Mink wrote: »

God my back arches uncontrollably if don't have either my hands under bum or above my head hanging onto a pole.

.... which sounds terribly dirty if taken out of context.

According to her, that means you are lowering your legs further than you can properly support.

Transform

GreeBo wrote: »

I do general Pilates & Yoga for no real reason other than to improve strength & flexibility.

I also do golf specific strength & mobility training (TPI - http://www.mytpi.com/ ) which involves moves like Pallof Press, Squats, Lunges etc.
I guess I just dont want to waste my time also doing Pilates if I'm not working the correct muscles.:o
It's not 1:1 Pilates so I dont/wont get to change the movements that we do, that said there is a broad mixture, its just that legs in the air forms a basis for a lot of them!

brilliant - how many chin ups can you do and current deadlift?

GreeBo

Transform wrote: »

brilliant - how many chin ups can you do and current deadlift?

We dont specifically do chin-ups, but last night (for example) I did 3 x 12 narrow grip lat pulldowns of 41.5KG. (We alternate between wide and narrow but my numbers would be ~ the same)
I'd be similar weight for seated front rows. (wide and narrow).

I've done a set of 10-12 chin ups just between other exercises.

We havent done specific deadlifts in months (due to varying ability in the class, we workout in a circuit so not comfortable with newbies deadlifting or squatting on their own!)

A couple of months ago I was doing 3 x 12 of 60KG, but were were not going for max or to failure as its part of a number of exercises.

GreeBo

I'm 181cm, 40, and 80KG btw.

Been doing the TPI for about 3 months, Pilates & Yoga for a year.

Other than that I dont & havent trained or worked out.

Transform

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm 181cm, 40, and 80KG btw.

Been doing the TPI for about 3 months, Pilates & Yoga for a year.

Other than that I dont & havent trained or worked out.

cool, id work on the basics a bit more

You see Rory Mc deadlifting and hitting chin ups?

GreeBo

Transform wrote: »

cool, id work on the basics a bit more

You see Rory Mc deadlifting and hitting chin ups?

True, I have some dumbbells, a tricep bar and a e-z curl bar at home

Pull ups are a bit of an issue though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHcCPPh0aLY