Frustrated trying to get an alarm

Conar

I have a new build just about to be handed over to me and I've been trying to get a quote for a wireless alarm that I can remote manage without ongoing payments.

I have tried companies that show Siemens and GSD devices and they're also insisting that what I want can't be done.

Sample response:
"The main systems out there at
the moment ar HKC,GSD or Pyronix. All good systems. If you want to monitor
it yourself it is still going to cost at least €10 euro per month for sim
card cost or app management which ever you go for."

Does anyone know where I can get an installer in County Clare that's not obsessed with signing people up to contracts?

KoolKid

GSD & Siemens would have free apps & free remote access via app.
Is that what you mean?

Conar

KoolKid wrote: »

GSD & Siemens would have free apps & free remote access via app.
Is that what you mean?

Yeah, do you think I'm causing an issue by saying self monitoring?
I just want an app and the ability to check it remotely and get alerts.

KoolKid

Both systems are well capable of that.I think whats happening is you are coming across installers who are inexperienced with these systems or they simply want to sell you the system they want to use and tie you to monthly payments
I would recommend you Contact GSD.They will put you in contact with GSD installers in your area.

Conar

KoolKid wrote: »

Both systems are well capable of that.I think whats happening is you are coming across installers who are inexperienced with these systems or they simply want to sell you the system they want to use and tie you to monthly payments

Yeah that's the impression I'm getting. I don't mind people trying to upsell but I do hate when they try to pretend that it's the only option.

KoolKid wrote: »

I would recommend you Contact GSD.They will put you in contact with GSD installers in your area.

Yeah, have done that and I'm waiting for a response. Cheers.

davehogan100

The other possibility is your coming across installers who are not willing to sell you something that wouldn't send a signal if your power is cut. All the "no ongoing charge" systems you see use your broadband router to notify you in the event of an activation. If the power goes you've had it.

You would be far better installing a system with either GSM/Wifi or GSM so if your power goes you still get a notification. HKC, Pyronix, GSD, Siemens(I Believe) and Risco offer such solutions.

Free isn't always better and if you have a break in your not alerted to it may very well get extremely expensive.

Conar

davehogan100 wrote: »

The other possibility is your coming across installers who are not willing to sell you something that wouldn't send a signal if your power is cut. All the "no ongoing charge" systems you see use your broadband router to notify you in the event of an activation. If the power goes you've had it.

If that's what they're doing then it's a bit cheeky. If I asked for an alarm and didn't want any monitoring they would install one without question. Why is it somehow an issue when I want a little step further and want to be able to remote arm it and keep a cursory eye on it while I'm out.

davehogan100 wrote: »

You would be far better installing a system with either GSM/Wifi or GSM so if your power goes you still get a notification. HKC, Pyronix, GSD, Siemens(I Believe) and Risco offer such solutions.

Look I know this probably comes across as a bit snotty but I'd also be better off hiring a security guard but that's not the product or service I'm looking for. I am fully aware of the benefits of a fully monitored service but I'm unwilling to pay for it.

davehogan100 wrote: »

Free isn't always better and if you have a break in your not alerted to it may very well get extremely expensive.

If I have a break in I'll claim from my insurance.
I've weighed up the pros and cons and I'd rather pay slightly more for my insurance and a lot less for my alarm and go unmonitored.

KoolKid

You are only getting part of the story there as well I'm afraid.
In the event of a power cut or network down Siemens /Vanderbilt can notify you in less than a minute if you want.
GSD can notify you in 5 minutes.
GSD will also notify you instantly if network connection is lost after an alarm event or even entry time started.
On some of the paid options network fails are only notified after 5 hours 😲
Keep shopping around would be my advice.

PixelTrawler

We got a wireless alarm installed recently. Its a HKC. It has a sim card in it.

For 7 a month we have an app to remote activate it and get alerts. But it also sends text and can be remote set via sms. So the advantage there is it does not rely on have broadband or even power since it can run off its battery backup. And all you need is a mobile signal. You dont need data on since its app alerts and sms.

Edited to add. To be clear there is no call centre monitoring. Its entirely self monitored. You can setup multiple contacts on it so it texts both of us. Theres no contract either, we could deactivate it whenever. But why would you when getting piece of mind for this cheap.

kub

PixelTrawler wrote:

We got a wireless alarm installed recently. Its a HKC. It has a sim card in it.

PixelTrawler wrote:

For 7 a month we have an app to remote activate it and get alerts. But it also sends text and can be remote set via sms. So the advantage there is it does not rely on have broadband or even power since it can run off its battery backup. And all you need is a mobile signal. You dont need data on since its app alerts and sms.

PixelTrawler wrote:

Edited to add. To be clear there is no call centre monitoring. Its entirely self monitored. You can setup multiple contacts on it so it texts both of us. Theres no contract either, we could deactivate it whenever. But why would you when getting piece of mind for this cheap.

That is proper self notification, free in my book just is not good enough.

When you think € 7 a month and people can't afford that.

Conar

KoolKid wrote: »

You are only getting part of the story there as well I'm afraid.
In the event of a power cut or network down Siemens /Vanderbilt can notify you in less than a minute if you want.
GSD can notify you in 5 minutes.
GSD will also notify you instantly if network connection is lost after an alarm event or even entry time started.
On some of the paid options network fails are only notified after 5 hours 😲
Keep shopping around would be my advice.

I know, I've done a decent bit of research on this and I'm fully aware of the limitations and benefits of IP based monitoring vs GSM.
I'm don't like perpetual contracts and refuse to pay for Sky when I can have my own HTPC with satellite tuners and get most of the channels for free.

I'm wondering if it's just easier to get someone to install an unmonitored Siemens or GSD alarm and just add the IP card afterwards.
Do installers have to supply the engineer code or can they insist on locking me out?

I've an IT background (though have never soldered), would I easily be able to finish the install myself afterwards?

It seems mental that I'd have to go down this route but apparently my expectations are too flawed to be met.

sonic85

PixelTrawler wrote: »

We got a wireless alarm installed recently. Its a HKC. It has a sim card in it.

For 7 a month we have an app to remote activate it and get alerts. But it also sends text and can be remote set via sms. So the advantage there is it does not rely on have broadband or even power since it can run off its battery backup. And all you need is a mobile signal. You dont need data on since its app alerts and sms.

Edited to add. To be clear there is no call centre monitoring. Its entirely self monitored. You can setup multiple contacts on it so it texts both of us. Theres no contract either, we could deactivate it whenever. But why would you when getting piece of mind for this cheap.

Hi I'm looking for something like this for my house. Can I just ask who installed it for you and how much it cost you all in? Thanks

Conar

kub wrote: »

That is proper self notification, free in my book just is not good enough.

Sorry, not looking to pick an argument but this response makes no sense to me.
I'm assuming you're an installer.....

Do you refuse to install unmonitored alarms?
I assume not as the majority of people I know have unmonitored alarms so installers must still be happy to do these jobs.
So with that in mind do you not agree that an unmonitored alarm with additional remote management capabilities is better than a vanilla unmonitored alarm?
Assuming so why should people not have the option of going down this route?
I'm not looking for someone to design a bespoke product that doesn't exist, merely looking to get an existing product installed that doesn't involve signing up for a further (arguably better) service that costs more money.

kub wrote: »

When you think € 7 a month and people can't afford that.

Thats simply an awful attitude to have. I can definitely afford 7 a month. That has no bearing on this though because its a service I don't want to pay for so why should I have to?
I can also afford a new BMW but I drive a 9 year old car because I'm not in the habit of spending money on things I don't want.

Conar

PixelTrawler wrote: »

We got a wireless alarm installed recently. Its a HKC. It has a sim card in it.

For 7 a month we have an app to remote activate it and get alerts. But it also sends text and can be remote set via sms. So the advantage there is it does not rely on have broadband or even power since it can run off its battery backup. And all you need is a mobile signal. You dont need data on since its app alerts and sms.

Edited to add. To be clear there is no call centre monitoring. Its entirely self monitored. You can setup multiple contacts on it so it texts both of us. Theres no contract either, we could deactivate it whenever. But why would you when getting piece of mind for this cheap.

Thanks Pixel Trawler.
You can probably see now from my other frustrated posts that I'm aware of this service just don't want it.
I can certainly see the benefits of it, and wouldn't criticise the use of it but it's not what I'm looking for.

Drifter50

Its not a huge issue to sign up for €5 or €8 per month. Margins in our install business are so skinny that the ONLY option is to upsell some kind of ongoing service. However to help with your aversion what you can do is fit the HKC wire free system and use the GSM Q communicator with a ready to go EIR SIM card. This means you only pay for what you use and top it up as required. You must use an EIR SIM as its the only one that is compatible with the HKC technology ( ie not 4G ) Just remember if you don`t pay at least €5 every 6 months EIR will delete the SIM

Hope this helps

kub

Conar wrote:

Sorry, not looking to pick an argument but this response makes no sense to me. I'm assuming you're an installer.....

I am and neither am I looking for an argument.

Conar wrote:

Do you refuse to install unmonitored alarms? I assume not as the majority of people I know have unmonitored alarms so installers must still be happy to do these jobs. So with that in mind do you not agree that an unmonitored alarm with additional remote management capabilities is better than a vanilla unmonitored alarm? Assuming so why should people not have the option of going down this route? I'm not looking for someone to design a bespoke product that doesn't exist, merely looking to get an existing product installed that doesn't involve signing up for a further (arguably better) service that costs more money.

The systems that I specify have some form of notification whether that is the convience of self monitoring by the customer or the security of professional monitoring for the customer.
My philosophy is quite simple, an alarm is only as good as the response it gets, a system without notification is a waste of time unless you are lucky enough to have neighbours who are strangely at home all of the time and have nothing better to do than to be listening out for an alarm activating.
No I do not install systems without notification of some type.

I cannot speak for all installers though.

Conar

Drifter50 wrote: »

Its not a huge issue to sign up for €5 or €8 per month. Margins in our install business are so skinny that the ONLY option is to upsell some kind of ongoing service. However to help with your aversion what you can do is fit the HKC wire free system and use the GSM Q communicator with a ready to go EIR SIM card. This means you only pay for what you use and top it up as required. You must use an EIR SIM as its the only one that is compatible with the HKC technology ( ie not 4G ) Just remember if you don`t pay at least €5 every 6 months EIR will delete the SIM

Hope this helps

Thanks, I appreciate the low margins issue and sympathise.
The GSM Q is a decent alternative but it wouldn't be usable by my wife O probably falls a little short of what I need. Thanks though.

Conar

kub wrote: »

I am and neither am I looking for an argument.




The systems that I specify have some form of notification whether that is the convience of self monitoring by the customer or the security of professional monitoring for the customer.
My philosophy is quite simple, an alarm is only as good as the response it gets, a system without notification is a waste of time unless you are lucky enough to have neighbours who are strangely at home all of the time and have nothing better to do than to be listening out for an alarm activating.
No I do not install systems without notification of some type.

I cannot speak for all installers though.

I do get where you're coming from there and maybe that's the way things are moving but I still see value in unmonitored alarms.
I work shift and I'm often on nights. Items can be replaced but there's a peace of mind in knowing that an alarm is activated at night while people are in bed that will alert them to potential dangers. I'd like to be able to check that they've remembered to turn it on, and would hope the alarm activating would scare off the burglars.
I know that getting a notification on my phone won't send the Gardaí to my house but its another layer of protection.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

jeffk wrote:

What I meant was blocked as in nothing will load, some of facebook newsfeed did, but most like pictures etc didnt, magisk had a meltdown even when it was in the white-list

Are home alarms not a waste of money and time? Nobody pays any attention to them when they go off, and the siren is considered to be a social nuisance. Even the owner would be better off not returning to his/her property while the thieves are there, for their own personal safety.

machiavellianme

Conar wrote: »

I do get where you're coming from there and maybe that's the way things are moving but I still see value in unmonitored alarms.
I work shift and I'm often on nights. Items can be replaced but there's a peace of mind in knowing that an alarm is activated at night while people are in bed that will alert them to potential dangers. I'd like to be able to check that they've remembered to turn it on, and would hope the alarm activating would scare off the burglars.
I know that getting a notification on my phone won't send the Gardao my house but its another layer of protection.

You can always add an ip camera and should the alarm go off, look in yourself when on shift and alert the gardai. I'm in the same shift boat and it's very reassuring for the missus that I can look in overnight if needed.

Conar

machiavellianme wrote: »

You can always add an ip camera and should the alarm go off, look in yourself when on shift and alert the gardai. I'm in the same shift boat and it's very reassuring for the missus that I can look in overnight if needed.

I intend to have a few external cameras but won't be having any internally. My wife hates having her picture taken and cameras in the house would send her potty.

KoolKid

There is noting wrong with un-monitored alarms & yes IP monitoring is obviousally a step better. But insurance companies and certification bodies accept both of these on insurance policy's.
Any good installer would be able to install most systems , so an installer refusing to install what you want has either limited experience or again is wanting to sell you something you dont want.
The affordability argument makes no sense to be honest.
A person could afford €100 a month but doesn't see the value in it. So why should they be forced to pay it for a service they don't want of need.
Some other points on the subscription model...
The price is only going to go one way. All going well you will have your alarm for 10-15 years or more. You could bet your mortgage that the price is not going to be the same then.
You are subscribed to the manufacturer service so you have no ability to shop around for this service.So you are tied to this for the life of the system.
Would you buy a car if the deal was you must return to the dealer for all your petrol for the life of the car, even if the garage down the road is cheaper?
You can also opt for the free options with faster polling & have a self managed sim card as a back up without being tied to any contract or provider.

PS. I am also an installer with over 30 years experience. I also believe in the ability of the consumer to do their own research & choose the system they want/need.
I believe as an installer , part of the job is to advice & explain the differences.
When explained , most people choose the free options because of the faster poll fail notifications & then go for central station monitoring if they want more secure options.
In reality , if you get an alarm, or multiple alarms, followed by a poll fail its all about how quick you can get someone to the property not whether you continue to get text messages or alerts.

KoolKid

Conar wrote: »

I know that getting a notification on my phone won't send the Gardaí to my house but its another layer of protection.

In all honesty neither will an alarm event on a monitored alarm. I would only rely on their quick response to a panic alarm.

bk

Conar wrote: »

I do get where you're coming from there and maybe that's the way things are moving but I still see value in unmonitored alarms.

I'd say that unmonitored alarms still actually do the most important thing that most people want from an alarm.

Most peoples biggest fear is someone breaking in when they are upstairs in bed. A dumb alarm still handles that, alerts you and gives you time to take action (lock bedroom door, call Gardai, etc.).

Remote monitoring is a nice to have, but not really vital in most peoples minds IMO. After all if someone breaks in when you are out, the insurance will cover it anyway.

However the way that the market will actually go in the next 2/3 years is that it will be flooded by fairly advanced, DIY self install, alarm systems from massive companies like Amazon, Google, Samsung/ADT, etc. which will have IP self monitoring and remote control out of the box for free.

Free IP monitoring/remote control will become the new base level for all alarm systems.

You will still have the option to pay extra for a secondary GSM backup channel or even professional monitoring if you want. But they will rightfully be an optional extra.

We are also going to see far more cloud IP cameras in various forms and self monitoring of those also becoming the norm. The market is facing some serious disruption here.

I think that professional installers and specialist alarm systems from the like of HKC will still absolutely have their place. But they will have to be realistic about this new reality and evolve to match consumers expectations.

Conar

bk wrote: »

I'd say that unmonitored alarms still actually do the most important thing that most people want from an alarm.

Most peoples biggest fear is someone breaking in when they are upstairs in bed. A dumb alarm still handles that, alerts you and gives you time to take action (lock bedroom door, call Gardai, etc.).

This is exactly my thinking. Really it's an alarm to alert us that someone is breaking in at night.
I will not register the alarm on my insurance because I don't want to give them any outs if we forget to set it.
I don't see what people think having HKCs paid self monitored service is giving me that deserves an ongoing charge.
I like to be able to remotely access my HTPC, and other smart devices in my house. This is all free.
I want to do the same with my alarm and I couldn't give a damn that someone can cut power to my house and disable it. If a thief is going to cut power to the house then they are pretty determined to get in and I don't think any alarm is going to stop them.

bk

Conar wrote: »

I will not register the alarm on my insurance because I don't want to give them any outs if we forget to set it.

Yes, I do the same and recommend everyone do the same. I find anyway that if you shop around (or threaten to do so) you can get the same discount anyway without having your alarm system on it.

Conar wrote: »

I don't see what people think having HKCs paid self monitored service is giving me that deserves an ongoing charge.

Well in fairness to them, it does cover the cost of the sim and data, which is fair enough. However two things about that:

1) The cost for it seems high. For instance Honeywell have a similar GSM monitored/controlled system. They give the sim monitoring free for 2 years and then charge just €23 per year after that for the SIM, which seems closer to how much it should cost.

2) If people even want or really need GSM monitored systems or if free monitoring over ethernet/wifi is enough to satisfy most peoples wants (very likely IMO). GSM can always be offered as an optional extra backup comms channel for improved security.

It is a pity, because HKC are an Irish company and they make very reliable and well regarded hardware/systems, but I do fell like they went down the wrong path with their comms.

It reminds me of Climote, another Irish company, that made a smart thermostat that required GSM for it's comms to control it and a €50 per year subscription (now reduced to €20). They had the market to themselves for a while, but that has been wiped out by the entry on Nest/Hive/Netatmo/Tado/etc. smart thermostats, all which use ethernet/wifi for their comms and have free app control out of the box.

I really hope the same doesn't happen to HKC. I hope they realise this mistake and are working away on a new panel that has ethernet/wifi built in, with free monitoring/remote access and <5 minutes polling built in for free. GSM as a backup channel can be offered as an optional paid extra, along with professional monitoring.

If they bring something like that to the market, along with their quality hardware/sensors, then I'd be first in line to buy it and could whole heartedly recommend it. I hope they are, or I fear they will end up getting left behind.

Conar wrote: »

I want to do the same with my alarm and I couldn't give a damn that someone can cut power to my house and disable it. If a thief is going to cut power to the house then they are pretty determined to get in and I don't think any alarm is going to stop them.

Yep, it is the fallacy of some sort of perfect security. It doesn't exist. All we can do is hope to do enough to discourage a thief and that they might try somewhere easier instead.

BTW Conar, if you haven't already you should check out the home automation forum here on boards, it sounds like you might be interested in a lot of the topics there.

Effects

kub wrote: »

When you think €7 a month and people can't afford that.

I recently set up an alarm installation for a family member. While putting the HKC app on the phone they asked how much it cost. They didn't want to spend the €7.
Same person spends €60 on the lottery each month.

KoolKid

Effects wrote: »

I recently set up an alarm installation for a family member. While putting the HKC app on the phone they asked how much it cost. They didn't want to spend the €7.
Same person spends €60 on the lottery each month.

There will always be something else people spend more money on.
That's like a car salesman complaining you won't spend €400 a month on the car he wants to sell you but you can happily pay €1500 for your mortgage.
People have the right to choose what they want to spend their hard earned money on. And generally they won't want to spend it on what's available for free elsewhere.

DavyD_83

I have a wireless HKC alarm installed by a user on here.
Although it does not have app, or wifi support, it does have a SIM on-board with no on going subscription cost as such. When installed it was fitted with a Meteor (now Eir) Sim.
The system can be controlled by text, and also alerts me (and my wife; multiple numbers can be added) by text if there are any alerts.
I am only charged based on the cost for the SMS texts it actually sends.
It may not be exactly what you have described but for me it is that step up from unmonitored without any on-going subscription cost locked in.

It is technically a billpay sim (rolling contract ), with no standing charges, so there is no 'subscription cost'; I have paid to the account in advance, so that each month only the texts that have been sent are billed, and already covered by the positive balance on the account (approx. €50 since installed ~4 years ago) .

KoolKid

I agree. I have mine on prepay (as a back up) & €20 goes a hell of a long way compared to €60 or €90 a year.

Effects

KoolKid wrote: »

People have the right to choose what they want to spend their hard earned money on.

Then he had no right to complain when his house was broken into because he had no alarm in place. And no right to complain about the insurance company that didn't cover the break in due to him not informing them that he didn't have a working alarm.

bk

Effects wrote: »

Then he had no right to complain when his house was broken into because he had no alarm in place. And no right to complain about the insurance company that didn't cover the break in due to him not informing them that he didn't have a working alarm.

Huh, I thought you said he got an alarm system installed, just opted not to spend the extra on monitoring?!

So his home is still protected by an alarm system and thus would still be covered by insurance as even non connected alarm systems are.

Lets not get into selling FUD like that!

KoolKid

Effects wrote: »

Then he had no right to complain when his house was broken into because he had no alarm in place. And no right to complain about the insurance company that didn't cover the break in due to him not informing them that he didn't have a working alarm.

Again that argument is irrelevant. It can be applied to anything someone didn't want to buy.
You cant complain you got wet waiting on the bus you wouldn't buy a car....
You can't complain about washing the dishes you didn't want to pay for a dishwasher...
You can't complain you dinners taking too long you wouldn't pay for a microwave...

He has already cover the insurance issue also.

Effects

KoolKid wrote: »

Again that argument is irrelevant. It can be applied to anything someone didn't want to buy.
You cant complain you got wet waiting on the bus you wouldn't buy a car....

The situation was more like he was sick of getting wet waiting on the bus, bought a car and then complained that he had to pay to put petrol in the tank.

Effects

bk wrote: »

Huh, I thought you said he got an alarm system installed, just opted not to spend the extra on monitoring?!

So his home is still protected by an alarm system and thus would still be covered by insurance as even non connected alarm systems are.

Lets not get into selling FUD like that!

The alarm stopped working a few years ago. He didn't want to get it fixed. House was broken into twice in recent years. Insurance refused cover as alarm wasn't operational.

After most recent break in he's afraid in the house on his own and he's afraid of a break in while he's down the country, which is 8 days a month.

He wanted to get the 30 year old, faulty, Aritech alarm repaired.
I convinced him to replace the alarm and have a monitored system so he would know if there's a break in when he's away and could alert a family member in Dublin to check the house. He paid for the GSM unit to be fitted but now doesn't want to pay for the service.

builder007

Arlo pro 2 all the way

bk

Effects wrote: »

The alarm stopped working a few years ago. He didn't want to get it fixed. House was broken into twice in recent years. Insurance refused cover as alarm wasn't operational.

And did you tell him to remove the alarm cover from the insurance and he will have no future problems with his insurance as we all pretty much recommend on this forum!

His issue was that his alarm was not operational, while included in the insurance, not that it didn't have monitoring. Had his alarm been operational and maintained then his insurance would have covered it even without monitoring. But overall best just not to include it in the insurance.

Conar

OP here with an update.

Looks like I've found an installer which will provide a GSD alarm with IP monitoring.
They pointed out the limitations, the fact that the service currently being free could change I the future, and said they'd advise the dial system with a SIM though its not required.

I was happy with this kind of response because it gave me the information I needed (though I was already pretty well informed) but didn't pretend what I wanted wasn't possible.
I'll update on the finished product later assuming I go ahead with it as I've yet to get the site survey and price.

All the installers pushing the notion of power being cut got me thinking though.
If the genuine concern is someone cutting power and the router going offline, then this can be offset with a 1 off cost of 60 odd euro for a basic UPS which would keep the router online for about a day if the power is cut.

Can anyone think of any downsides to this?

bk

Conar wrote: »

OP here with an update.

Looks like I've found an installer which will provide a GSD alarm with IP monitoring.
They pointed out the limitations, the fact that the service currently being free could change I the future, and said they'd advise the dial system with a SIM though its not required.

Sounds like you found yourself a good installer there and he is correct, no guarantees that subs couldn't be introduced in future.

Conar wrote: »

All the installers pushing the notion of power being cut got me thinking though.
If the genuine concern is someone cutting power and the router going offline, then this can be offset with a 1 off cost of 60 odd euro for a basic UPS which would keep the router online for about a day if the power is cut.

Can anyone think of any downsides to this?

Non, lots of more techie people do exactly that and it has the added benefit that you can stay online (on your laptop, etc.) during a power outage.

A few gotchas though:

- If it is a widespread power outage, rather then just local, no guarantee that the broadband will continue to work at the cab/exchange level, though the are normally UPS'd up too, so should be good for a few hours anyway.

- In reality a burglar is much more likely to cut just your phone/cable line then the power anyway (less dangerous to them). This would take out your broadband even if the power is still up. Which is why server side polling and notification is important.

To be honest the whole taking out your power thing is rather unlikely. Though there is always the chance, in reality it is a small one. Taking out your broadband is more likely, but still relatively rare.

All alarm systems should continue to work as standard alarms in a power outage/bb cut, as in detect an intruder and make lots of noise, etc. You just might not know if out, though with a decent IP system it should notify you of an outage in a few minutes.

No such thing as perfect security.

Effects

bk wrote: »

To be honest the whole taking out your power thing is rather unlikely. Though there is always the chance, in reality it is a small one.

Except modern houses can have their power cut from outside very easily.

Effects

bk wrote: »

And did you tell him to remove the alarm cover from the insurance and he will have no future problems with his insurance as we all pretty much recommend on this forum!

Yeah, I explained all that but he just wouldn't listen. Preferred to just keep paying the premium and just not change any of the details in the policy for fear of rocking the boat.

The best thing about the alarm on his house now is that I no longer get calls to come over and close the window that's always left open at the front of the house. The alarm won't set unless it's closed.

Conar

Effects wrote: »

Yeah, I explained all that but he just wouldn't listen. Preferred to just keep paying the premium and just not change any of the details in the policy for fear of rocking the boat.

The best thing about the alarm on his house now is that I no longer get calls to come over and close the window that's always left open at the front of the house. The alarm won't set unless it's closed.

From what your saying you've still left a massive point of failure wide open in that system, and it's the user.
Some people would make the best system in the world a pile of crap and using them as an example as to why everyone needs to pay an ongoing subscription is over the top.

Again, there are plenty of installers out there willing to install unmonitored alarms, so why do almost none of them want to give me some remote management ability.
The only answer I can credibly believe so far is that they want me to be a perpetual revenue stream and they see me doing it myself as some sort of cheating their system.

bk

Effects wrote: »

Except modern houses can have their power cut from outside very easily.

And those same houses usually have the phone/coax line at the same spot or next to it. So it makes no sense to cut the power instead of the phone/coax line.

1) It is more dangerous
2) If it is night time, it now makes the burglars life harder as they have to use flashlights, which can draw more attention.

Cutting the power doesn't get them anything extra over cutting the phone line, all alarm systems continue to work for hours even with power cut, at least as basic alarms (bells and lights).

Of course adding a UPS to your router resolves the cut power risk and decent polling helps greatly (but not completely) with cut comms.

Of course there is no such thing as perfect security. It is always a trade off between levels of security, cost and convenience.

KoolKid

Its all about marketing & the perception people have.
PW is a classic example. Spend little on the system & keep it as cheap as possible & as quick as possible to install. Spend all the money on the marketing & people think it must be the best & well worth the €40 odd a month etc.
Its the same with other manufacturers also. The installer comes around only interested in selling you one system & you get the lines like this is the best and all the others are crap.
He doesn't tell you all the others are manufactured to the same standard.
He doesn't tell you that he might not know how to install or programme any other systems.
He doesn't tell you there are cheaper options or free options available.
If you went in Harvey Normans and there was only one make of TV for sale what would you think?
If PC World only sold one make of computer what would you think.

Well done Conar for coming on and sharing your experiences. Hopefully it will open some eyes to the wider market.

Effects

Conar wrote: »

From what your saying you've still left a massive point of failure wide open in that system, and it's the user.

I wasn't using him as an example of why everyone should pay for monitoring. Just in his case it makes sense to have it, he was happy to have it installed but then changed his mind on a monthly payment.

They want me to be a perpetual revenue stream and they see me doing it myself as some sort of cheating their system.

But HKC installers don't get money out of it, HKC do. Or is there some sort of kick back I don't know about?
I'm sure they make their money by having to service it periodically.

Effects

bk wrote: »

And those same houses usually have the phone/coax line at the same spot or next to it. So it makes no sense to cut the power instead of the phone/coax line.

1) It is more dangerous
2) If it is night time, it now makes the burglars life harder as they have to use flashlights, which can draw more attention.

Cutting the power doesn't get them anything extra over cutting the phone line, all alarm systems continue to work for hours even with power cut, at least as basic alarms (bells and lights).

You don't have to cut the power cable, just flick a breaker in the meter cabinet. They are all easily accessible on new builds. It's one thing that has me worried at my own house. It would turn off my cctv. UPS system is on the list!

On the other hand, the coax goes straight from my comms cabinet underground to the Virgin media manhole, so there's no junction cabinet where it can be cut!

In my own situation I will probably install a HKC alarm, do it myself and not put it on the insurance. I will probably go for the GSM monitoring so if the alarm is triggered I can quickly log in to the cctv remotely to see what's happening.

bk

Effects wrote: »

I wasn't using him as an example of why everyone should pay for monitoring. Just in his case it makes sense to have it, he was happy to have it installed but then changed his mind on a monthly payment.

Perhaps he didn't realise that there would be monthly fee until after you installed it?

As in he said just fix my alarm, but he didn't really understand (even though you probably explained it) that there will be fees until after it was installed.

Effects wrote: »

But HKC installers don't get money out of it, HKC do. Or is there some sort of kick back I don't know about?
I'm sure they make their money by having to service it periodically.

I agree, I don't think they are getting a kickback. More of a case that they have always installed HKC systems and nothing else and aren't willing to look elsewhere for a variety of reasons and thus they just push HKC's party line, even though it has plenty of issues.

I do think this is risky for these installers, I think HKC have taken a wrong turn with their comms choice and I don't think it is what most people want. If more people do what Conar is doing and seek out alternatives, then those installers will suffer and so will HKC. Specially if it pushes more people to DIY systems which are getting way more powerful and easy to install every year.

I hope they rethink their approach, which would end up benefiting everyone.

bk

Effects wrote: »

You don't have to cut the power cable, just flick a breaker in the meter cabinet. They are all easily accessible on new builds. It's one thing that has me worried at my own house. It would turn off my cctv. UPS system is on the list!

Motion activated cloud IP camera (e.g. Nest, Logitech Circle, Arlo, etc.) overlooking the meter cabinet or the approach to it (depending on your house layout).

The way these work they should detect the person approaching, record it and upload it to their cloud system and notify you, before the burglar has time to cut the power.

Even with the power cut, you can still review the video from the cloud service and confirm that someone was doing something untoward.

Added bonus that my Logitech Circle Cameras give you a notification if offline for a few minutes. Though if you want to use these outdoors you might need a sub. One isn't really needed as indoor cameras.

KoolKid

Effects wrote: »

But HKC installers don't get money out of it, HKC do. Or is there some sort of kick back I don't know about?
I'm sure they make their money by having to service it periodically.

Depends on the package they sell you.
Some tie it in with service & maintenance & they are billed from HKC. Hence you are tied to both subscriptions and probably a mark up.

Drifter50

As I said before the margins we get in our industry are so skinny that the only way to get some added value is to upsell some sort of service. There is nothing wrong with selling maintenance, monitoring or APP services. Did it never strike you as odd why the major multinationals won`t even consider fitting a system without a contract. I am talking about Phonewatch, ADT, G4S etc and thats if you could even get them to fit it.

Don`t fall into the trap of using unlicenced labour tho, even your own. The PSA have teeth now and have a team in Tipperary using Google street view to trawl up and down every street, road, boreen in the country to catch and follow up unlicenced systems being installed

bk

Drifter50 wrote: »

As I said before the margins we get in our industry are so skinny that the only way to get some added value is to upsell some sort of service. There is nothing wrong with selling maintenance, monitoring or APP services. Did it never strike you as odd why the major multinationals won`t even consider fitting a system without a contract. I am talking about Phonewatch, ADT, G4S etc and thats if you could even get them to fit it.

Yale and Honeywell will sell you DIY systems with free or very cheap self monitoring right on Amazon.

Google/Nest, Amazon, Samsung all have similar systems in the US, soon to come to UK/Ireland.

Drifter50 wrote: »

Don`t fall into the trap of using unlicenced labour tho, even your own. The PSA have teeth now and have a team in Tipperary using Google street view to trawl up and down every street, road, boreen in the country to catch and follow up unlicenced systems being installed

Complete bull, you are absolutely legally entitled to install your own security system.