[Rumor] 0600 Heuston to Cork Trial

Yggr of Asgard

Has anyone also heard that there is going to be a test / trial for a 0600 Heuston to Cork train (with only stop in Mallow)?

Anybody able to confirm / deny?

Thanks

goingnowhere

It's always been kept a spot in the staff timetable

Jamie2k9

The talk always comes and goes. Given the CEOs commitment to the Cork line when he was there its a little surprising it didn't happen. It would allow them to cancel the 07.15 Cork-Mallow and 08.00 Mallow-Cork if they ran the 06.00 out of Heuston.

Yggr of Asgard

Latest rumor is that once the track works are done in 2 bank holidays they will introduce a 0600 non stop with a 2 hour run time. So possibly October. I don't hold my breath but it would be excellent if they did.

Jamie2k9

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Latest rumor is that once the track works are done in 2 bank holidays they will introduce a 0600 non stop with a 2 hour run time. So possibly October. I don't hold my breath but it would be excellent if they did.

I cannot see Mallow been excluded from such a service, demand to fill an 06.00 ex Dublin isn't realistic. There website says timetable adjustments from 9 September so could be then.

goingnowhere

And Limerick Junction will have to be served

man98

goingnowhere wrote: »

And Limerick Junction will have to be served

Not all services call at Limerick Junction, especially given the current junction layout it might make more sense to run it through.

Victor

goingnowhere wrote: »

And Limerick Junction will have to be served

I agree. Now if only it didn't take until 07:12 for the first Galway train to serve Portarlington and 09:21 for the first Galway train to serve Limerick Junction.

If only it didn't take until 07:40 for the first Westport train to serve Portarlington.

If only it didn't take until 07:33 for the first Waterford train to serve Kildare (06.59 for the Carlow train) and 09:08 for the first Waterford train to serve Limerick Junction.

goingnowhere

man98 wrote: »

Not all services call at Limerick Junction, especially given the current junction layout it might make more sense to run it through.

Dublin Limerick early arrival
Limerick Cork early arrival

All need a stop at Limerick Junction to occur. There is considerable business going begging here

Between 0645 and 0816 there is no train calling at the main platform in Limerick junction, the 0615 from Cork passes non stop around 0655, a train from Dublin wouldn't get to Limerick Junction until about 0725 ish.

2 stops, 2:20 running time be in Cork for 0820

Isambard

I suppose it's mainly a business train, I can see a point in stopping at LJ for Limerick business users but I wonder how many business users are headed for Mallow or the Kerry line. Must be a very small number

goingnowhere

If you stop in Mallow it saves on running the current empty train from Cork to Mallow to position as a commuter service

Yggr of Asgard

Running it non stop with arriving at 0800 (or possibly 0810 due to the usual delay) makes sense because it allows business travelers to be in the office at 0830 in the likes of apple/VMware which are slightly outside cork city center in addition to the people going to the city.

Way better than the 0930 arriving now which makes 1000 for most offices. 90 minutes earlier arrival with just 60 minutes earlier start is going to be great for business customers.

Introducing a stop at Mallow makes no sense because it just adds commuters while taking away the business proposition of a direct business link to Cork in 2 hours.

goingnowhere

No chance it will be 2 hours, thats 83mph average on a railway which is littered with speed limits and very few long sections of 100mph running, 19 miles is the longest unbroken section its a constant 80-90-100 routine with much lower speeds at the start and end, its 60mph through Limerick Junction so the time cost to stop isn't huge compared to if it was 100mph


The current best is 2:15, I can't really see this being less than 2:05 bearing in mind the current express isn't exactly known for on time performance

Jamie2k9

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Running it non stop with arriving at 0800 (or possibly 0810 due to the usual delay) makes sense because it allows business travelers to be in the office at 0830 in the likes of apple/VMware which are slightly outside cork city center in addition to the people going to the city.

Way better than the 0930 arriving now which makes 1000 for most offices. 90 minutes earlier arrival with just 60 minutes earlier start is going to be great for business customers.

Introducing a stop at Mallow makes no sense because it just adds commuters while taking away the business proposition of a direct business link to Cork in 2 hours.

IMO they will not run a 2 hours non stop from Heuston, Limerick J and Mallow will be served and I would expect a bloke time of 2h10m which is perfectly acceptable.

Demand non stop will be there but not sufficient to deliver a well loaded train and make minimal losses or even a profit. Taking the current 06.15 ex Cork, loads are fair most of the time and they will be lower in opposite direction.

Mallow is a big commuter town and this service stopping would potentially cancel an empty movement, free driver resources in Cork and most importantly add minimum additional operating costs while delivering an enhanced service for everybody.

I agree. Now if only it didn't take until 07:12 for the first Galway train to serve Portarlington and 09:21 for the first Galway train to serve Limerick Junction.

If only it didn't take until 07:40 for the first Westport train to serve Portarlington.

If only it didn't take until 07:33 for the first Waterford train to serve Kildare (06.59 for the Carlow train) and 09:08 for the first Waterford train to serve Limerick Junction.

Not sure I fully follow, you want even earlier departures towards Heuston?

Victor

Oh, if aiming for the business market, start in Bray or Dún Laoghaire. Admittedly problematic at Heuston.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not sure I fully follow, you want even earlier departures towards Heuston?

I'm pointing out that the rest of the network is rather awful if you are going anywhere but Dublin in the morning.

IE 222

Will this set position back to Dublin on a current service from Cork or will the 9pm from Dublin be cut in size (iirc the 9pm is split to form the 6:15am and another service)

Isambard

isn't that where most passengers want to go early in the morning? Leisure travellers don't tend to rise early.

Ireland trains

Where are people hearing rumours, im just curious
I think a non stop (or maby onr call at mallow) train from Dublin to Cork in the evening rather than the morning and can 2 hours be achived now
Irish rail could definetly replan their timetable for maximum fleet efficency

Isambard

Ireland trains wrote: »

Where are people hearing rumours, im just curious
I think a non stop (or maby onr call at mallow) train from Dublin to Cork in the evening rather than the morning and can 2 hours be achived now
Irish rail could definetly replan their timetable for maximum fleet efficency

what advantage would that be to the traveller? a ten minute saving in the evening isn't of as much value as an early morning saving.

Ireland trains

But would more people want to go to cork in the evening than the morning from dublin, i could be wrong
Would an extra train to cork mean an extra train to dublin or would it piggyback on another service

Losty Dublin

Ireland trains wrote: »

Where are people hearing rumours, im just curious
I think a non stop (or maby onr call at mallow) train from Dublin to Cork in the evening rather than the morning and can 2 hours be achived now
Irish rail could definetly replan their timetable for maximum fleet efficency

A Heuston driver told me once that it's possible.

Jamie2k9

They are due to publish whatever September timetable changes in 5-10 days so prehaps we will know then.

Jamie2k9

Ireland trains wrote: »

Where are people hearing rumours, im just curious
I think a non stop (or maby onr call at mallow) train from Dublin to Cork in the evening rather than the morning and can 2 hours be achived now
Irish rail could definetly replan their timetable for maximum fleet efficency

They have tested it before and while I can't remember the exact time I think they did it under 2 hours however when the test was carried it was overnight I don't know if that was at line speed (when it happened) or they granted special increases.

They could run in 2 hours tomorrow but not a good idea until they can have 5-6 minutes to account for TSRs and potential congestion.

On a good day the current 06.15 can pass through Portlaoise 10-12 minutes ahead of schedule.

thomasj

Jamie2k9 wrote:

They are due to publish whatever September timetable changes in 5-10 days so prehaps we will know then.

They're saying by Friday so we should find out very soon.

Isambard

Ireland trains wrote: »

But would more people want to go to cork in the evening than the morning from dublin, i could be wrong
Would an extra train to cork mean an extra train to dublin or would it piggyback on another service

whether or not more people want to travel in the evening is not relevant. The time factor isn't so important and thus stops at other locations enhance the service more than a non-stop run would do.

Ireland trains

I assume the reason for non stop is so the train can leave cork at about half 8 to fill the gap of services to dublin.

Would it also be possible for an new service at 8pm from dublin and arrives at cork at about 22:30.
That train would stay overnight.
Then the existing 18:00 service to Cork can make a return journey to dublin leaving cork at 21:05 and arriving into dublin at 23:35
Would this work?

IE 222

Ireland trains wrote: »

I assume the reason for non stop is so the train can leave cork at about half 8 to fill the gap of services to dublin.

Would it also be possible for an new service at 8pm from dublin and arrives at cork at about 22:30.
That train would stay overnight.
Then the existing 18:00 service to Cork can make a return journey to dublin leaving cork at 21:05 and arriving into dublin at 23:35
Would this work?

The non stop would be to attract more business folk to the service and get it into Cork with a reasonable amount time to allow people arrive into the office before 9am. I assume it will call at Mallow at least if not Limerick Jct. as well.

I doubt it will return at 8:30am as the turn around time would be very tight and demand would be low as well as the 8pm from Dublin.

Mutant z

Why is this only being discussed now in 2018 when it should have been implemented years ago as is the norm in other countries why does it take longer to get from Limerick or Cork to Dublin by car than by train its truly bizarre.

IE 222

Mutant z wrote: »

Why is this only being discussed now in 2018 when it should have been implemented years ago as is the norm in other countries why does it take longer to get from Limerick or Cork to Dublin by car than by train its truly bizarre.

I guess you meant longer by train.

Simple answer is rail was ignored while funding went into building motorways and there still doing it...

There is not a massive difference between the 2 really unless you get a good clear run and drive a bit above the speed limit on the road.

L1011

Or have to travel more than a few minutes to get to Heuston and from Kent or v/v

Poor station locations add significantly to real end to end journey times

Victor

Access to / from Kent has improved radically with the new entrance.

Ireland trains

How much time is expected to be saved on dublin to cork line after the line improvment works.
In 2019 there will be the new platform at limerick Junction which will knock off another 4-5 minuets

Isambard

Victor wrote: »

Access to / from Kent has improved radically with the new entrance.

I've not used it but I'm told it's easier to walk to the old entrance and you can't take a taxi or car to the new, bus only so I think the Jury is out there

man98

Isambard wrote: »

I've not used it but I'm told it's easier to walk to the old entrance and you can't take a taxi or car to the new, bus only so I think the Jury is out there

It's much quicker to use the new entrance if you're walking into the city centre, especially if your train arrives in the platform which requires the underpass. While it really isn't a well positioned station, buses do provide a regular service out there.

Jamie2k9

man98 wrote: »

It's much quicker to use the new entrance if you're walking into the city centre, especially if your train arrives in the platform which requires the underpass. While it really isn't a well positioned station, buses do provide a regular service out there.

Its less than a minute difference, the low usage clearly shows how useless it is. I agree if your train arrives on platform 5 its good but useless for 95% of services.

Victor

Isambard wrote: »

I've not used it but I'm told it's easier to walk to the old entrance and you can't take a taxi or car to the new, bus only so I think the Jury is out there

It takes 1.3 km off the bus trip.

questionmark?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its less than a minute difference, the low usage clearly shows how useless it is. I agree if your train arrives on platform 5 its good but useless for 95% of services.

Slightly off topic but surely it's part of planning for the future of an interconnected network of buses and trains. We surely will see more bus routes pass through the station. Don't they have a few running through there already?
You also have huge office developments due for construction on the new entrance side which will up usage.

Isambard

questionmark? wrote: »

Slightly off topic but surely it's part of planning for the future of an interconnected network of buses and trains. We surely will see more bus routes pass through the station. Don't they have a few running through there already?
You also have huge office developments due for construction on the new entrance side which will up usage.

I imagine a terminal loop on some routes at the station might be a realistic option

tabbey

Ireland trains wrote: »

In 2019 there will be the new platform at limerick Junction which will knock off another 4-5 minuets

How?

goingnowhere

Only for stopping trains, the extra platform makes no difference to non stopping services

Ireland trains

tabbey wrote: »

Ireland trains wrote: »

In 2019 there will be the new platform at limerick Junction which will knock off another 4-5 minuets

How?

Because the dublin-cork train and cork-dublin can arrive at the same time rather than one having to wail for the other to leave

GM228

Ireland trains wrote: »

Because the dublin-cork train and cork-dublin can arrive at the same time rather than one having to wail for the other to leave

Will also allow for quicker arrival and departure of down trains as they will not be slowing earlier and accelerating slower to cross the points.

Isambard

indeed so but not 4 /5 minutes in the normal course of things surely

Jamie2k9

Isambard wrote: »

indeed so but not 4 /5 minutes in the normal course of things surely

17.00 can lose 4-6 minutes from a combination of running early and late running ex Cork. 5-10 minute delay at Limerick J can mess the schedule up.

Only for stopping trains, the extra platform makes no difference to non stopping services

They should really increase speed to 80mph through once points are replaced which must be due shortly as Limerick J must be the oldest now followed Ballybrophy with Mallow, Charville, Lisduff, Thurles (in progress) all done. The Waterford line and/or Grange LC could be the real reason for 50 mph.

Isambard

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

17.00 can lose 4-6 minutes from a combination of running early and late running ex Cork. 5-10 minute delay at Limerick J can mess the schedule up.



.

That's one train, and what's more it hasn't lost any time by running early.

Del.Monte

The new platform at Limerick Junction will be another farce like the redesigning of Ballybrophy was and illustrates yet again why strategic decisions should be removed from CIE.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

The new platform at Limerick Junction will be another farce like the redesigning of Ballybrophy was and illustrates yet again why strategic decisions should be removed from CIE.

What's the issue?

That's one train, and what's more it hasn't lost any time by running early.

True but the fact it runs early makes Limerick J very complicated and a deay on Tralee/Limerick/Galway/Waterford/Limerick route can cause major scheduling problems if its more than minutes.

The OTP of the 17.00, 18.00, 19.00 Heuston-Cork is far from prefect and a second platform should delivered an enhanced service.

Okon

Del.Monte wrote: »

The new platform at Limerick Junction will be another farce

I dunno, I think it should have been done years ago.

Del.Monte

Okon wrote: »

I dunno, I think it should have been done years ago.

What was wrong with old layout? Timings were better back then too and no dragging luggage across footbridges.

Okon

Del.Monte wrote: »

What was wrong with old layout? Timings were better back then too and no dragging luggage across footbridges.

One large platform for two different directions isn't ideal for efficiency. The timings will improve* as the practice of holding Heuston bound trains at a signal outside the station until a Cork train has left - or vice versa - will be stopped.

The luggage thing across a footbridge isn't a big a deal as it once was as there will be a lift for the new platform at Limerick Junction and most modern cases have wheels.



* Well, I hope they will.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

What was wrong with old layout? Timings were better back then too and no dragging luggage across footbridges.

Could be wrong but having two trains stopping on a single platform at the same time today may be considered a safety issue. Buffers at terminal stations have to be changed to avoid an accident so a single platform is a bigger risk.

You will still lose time waiting for one to arrive and stop before they can clear the next one in as both arriving together would not be permitted but open to correction.