'Tullamore Farm' breeding heifer sale

patsy_mccabe

It's on tomorrow, Monday 7th May 2018, Tullamore mart.:rolleyes:
Anyone going?

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/final-preparations-under-way-for-tullamore-farm-breeding-heifer-sale-367269

Bass Reeves

Save farmers a fortune if bought for finishing. A slaughter premium on heifers would be a good idea.:)

charolais0153

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

It's on tomorrow, Monday 7th May 2018, Tullamore mart.:rolleyes:
Anyone going?

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/final-preparations-under-way-for-tullamore-farm-breeding-heifer-sale-367269

Some of them black heifers in particular, i wouldnt like to be calving at 24 months. Only 350 kgs i guess. I suppose these are the rejects of what tullamore farm are keeping or are they buying in heifers. Good luck to them . 1000e avg will test them id say, and wont be a full clearance i guess

wrangler

charolais0153 wrote: »

Some of them black heifers in particular, i wouldnt like to be calving at 24 months. Only 350 kgs i guess. I suppose these are the rejects of what tullamore farm are keeping or are they buying in heifers. Good luck to them . 1000e avg will test them id say, and wont be a full clearance i guess

I think they're using first cross dairy heifers in their own herd to breed these so the sale would be the best of the progeny.....they're claiming 380kgs, I'd say they'd sell alright

patsy_mccabe

I dunno if I agree with this kind of sale in a research farm. Earnings from this will go into farm income and seriously inflate figures. Your average farmer doesnt get this same level of publicity when he sells a few similar heifers in the mart.

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I dunno if I agree with this kind of sale in a research farm. Earnings from this will go into farm income and seriously inflate figures. Your average farmer doesnt get this same level of publicity when he sells a few similar in the mart.

Surely this is the market to target, waste of time targetting the beef market.
If suckler farmers were targetting profit it seems to be the way to go.
Sourcing replacement sucklers seems to be a problem and a farmer with 10 or 15 similar heifers and figures properly advertised would surely get a premium too.
Anyway begudgers would have a field day if they went down any conventional system....they're only waiting to pounce as it is

charolais0153

wrangler wrote: »

I think they're using first cross dairy heifers in their own herd to breed these so the sale would be the best of the progeny.....they're claiming 380kgs, I'd say they'd sell alright

Aye i was on about a ew pf the black ones. Red heifers look super

Siamsa Sessions

I think it was planned more as a “demo” farm rather than “research” but given the spring we’ve just had there’s been as much learning as showcasing.

Whatever their plan, I’m glad they’re giving it a go anyway since it’ll give the journalists some real world experience to offset the ideal scenario press releases that the Journal sometimes publish; e.g. extra costs of 3,000 Euro per week due to weather this Spring

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Surely this is the market to target, waste of time targetting the beef market.
If suckler farmers were targetting profit it seems to be the way to go.
Sourcing replacement sucklers seems to be a problem and a farmer with 10 or 15 similar heifers and figures properly advertised would surely get a premium too.
Anyway begudgers would have a field day if they went down any conventional system....they're only waiting to pounce as it is

While it may be a market to target I taught this was to show how suckler farming could be commercial. It is not feasible for every suckler farmer to produce breeding heifers. It would be like setting up a commercial dairy farm that was based on selling breeding heifers to make the books balance. The whole point of this project was to show that a decent wage could be made from a drystock operation based on sheep and suckler. Therefore it is a bit like why we had the Celtic Tiger crash we had based the economy on building houses for each other. Basing a commercial suckler system on selling breeding heifers is a smaller example of the same madness.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

While it may be a market to target I taught this was to show how suckler farming could be commercial. It is not feasible for every suckler farmer to produce breeding heifers. It would be like setting up a commercial dairy farm that was based on selling breeding heifers to make the books balance. The whole point of this project was to show that a decent wage could be made from a drystock operation based on sheep and suckler. Therefore it is a bit like why we had the Celtic Tiger crash we had based the economy on building houses for each other. Basing a commercial suckler system on selling breeding heifers is a smaller example of the same madness.

Simmental cross breeders in the West proved there was a demand for replacements years ago. Farmers are the best customers and their own worst enemies, this system will cash in on that.
It was never IFJs intention to go down a conventional route, isn't there enough doing that.
They're doing something similar with the sheep.
The system they have there now is possible by any farmer if by some miracle it makes money.

bogman_bass

Just threw my head in for 5 minutes on the way home. They aren't making stupid money. Not overly fancy stock but I actually think they were value if you wanted cows at the end of it.
More genuine than at most sales. Scanned and vaccinated for a start which is worth a bit.

patsy_mccabe

What kind of prices and weights?

bogman_bass

Only saw 4 or 5 lots but 350kg for €900 was about the run of them

patsy_mccabe

Reasonable prices so.

GiantPencil

They're showing it on the Farmers Journal snapchat, code is: farmersjournal. Anything they've shown so far has been around the 1000 euro in the 350-400kgs range

bogman_bass

Notice that there is a big gap between lot numbers

Lady Haywire

Few from today I seen!


https://twitter.com/MaroonRover/status/993537036442365952

anthony500_1

The ones they have up on Snapchat I'd say are the better priced ones, big gaps between the numbers. The ones they have pictured are grand looking heifers nothing over flash or over done.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Simmental cross breeders in the West proved there was a demand for replacements years ago. Farmers are the best customers and their own worst enemies, this system will cash in on that.
It was never IFJs intention to go down a conventional route, isn't there enough doing that.
They're doing something similar with the sheep.
The system they have there now is possible by any farmer if by some miracle it makes money.

I have to disagree, if even 5-10% of farmers followed the system it would totally destabilize the breeding heifer market. My understand was this was to show farmers how to have a commercial suckler farm. If it is based on supplying breeding heifers it is seriously flawed in that there is a limited market. As well even though the prices they seemed to have achieved do not indicate it there is a slight bubble in breeding heifers at present. Some suckler farmers are looking for 4 and 5 star heifers as they are short numbers for the suckler scheme.

charolais0153

Without the bucket fed ones they made 350kg and €960. €2.75/kg. They have on average 80 kilos to gain to be the recommend weight for 24 month old calving. I reckon they should be keeping the best of them for themselves and see how they compare to their mothers.bad prices for yearlings i reckon

tanko

Take the cost of keeping a cow for a year and the cost of feeding the heifer over the winter we’ve had out of the average sale price, whats left, nothing.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have to disagree, if even 5-10% of farmers followed the system it would totally destabilize the breeding heifer market. My understand was this was to show farmers how to have a commercial suckler farm. If it is based on supplying breeding heifers it is seriously flawed in that there is a limited market. As well even though the prices they seemed to have achieved do not indicate it there is a slight bubble in breeding heifers at present. Some suckler farmers are looking for 4 and 5 star heifers as they are short numbers for the suckler scheme.

Here is the reasons they published.
It's their money they can do as they please.

1 Efficient suckler and sheep farms have an important role in rural Ireland and in sustaining rural communities.
2 Efficient suckler and sheep farms can return a good income to farmers relative to labour input required.
3 There is scope to put more money in suckler and sheep farmers’ pockets by making systems more efficient.
4 By using new technologies we can make the Irish Farmers Journal even better at communicating technical information to farmers.
5 Our business is dependent on farmers – this is just another way of giving something back.


You're just overthinking it,same as everything, you'd never buy a beast if you applied the same reasoning to your system

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Here is the reasons they published.
It's their money they can do as they please.

1 Efficient suckler and sheep farms have an important role in rural Ireland and in sustaining rural communities.
2 Efficient suckler and sheep farms can return a good income to farmers relative to labour input required.
3 There is scope to put more money in suckler and sheep farmers’ pockets by making systems more efficient.
4 By using new technologies we can make the Irish Farmers Journal even better at communicating technical information to farmers.
5 Our business is dependent on farmers – this is just another way of giving something back.


You're just overthinking it,same as everything, you'd never buy a beast if you applied the same reasoning to your system

I am not overthinking anything rather I am analysing what is the purpose of this farm. Points 1-3 above are not in play if the scheme is not relevant to the majority of suckler farms. It is just another brain fart. For any such project to be benefical it must deal with commercial reality. Suckler farmers have three main markets for there produce, sell as weanlings either for export or to other farmers, sell as stores or finish the prodgeny for the beef market. This is the commercial reality where 80%+ of there produce goes to.

If the success of the farm and is dependent on the other 10% of the market its a pointless excercise. Recently on a farm visit with our discussion group we visited a farm that was finishing some Friesian under 16 months bulls. This lad finished about 50 every year. Looking at figures it leaves a margin on goodish land of 300-350/head. Up until this visit I was dubious about this system. But it was working well for this lad. Average DW was 282kgs last year at an average of just short of 1150 euro each. With the present beef outlook they will average above 1150 this year. What I taught was really interesting was one lad on poorer land made the point that if he had to house 50 days earlier it would only add less than 50 euro in the growing period. He considered that 3-4 could be carried instead of a suckler cow.

SuperTortoise

tanko wrote: »

Take the cost of keeping a cow for a year and the cost of feeding the heifer over the winter we’ve had out of the average sale price, whats left, nothing.

+1

I'd say the majority of those sold today going by those prices above made a loss. There's no way a yearling heifer sold @ 950 euro ish left anything even in a good year with low mortality and good weather.

I half expected them to make more due to the attention the sale got but i'd say it's a fair reflection on the price a suckler farmer is getting.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am not overthinking anything rather I am analysing what is the purpose of this farm. Points 1-3 above are not in play if the scheme is not relevant to the majority of suckler farms. It is just another brain fart. For any such project to be benefical it must deal with commercial reality. Suckler farmers have three main markets for there produce, sell as weanlings either for export or to other farmers, sell as stores or finish the prodgeny for the beef market. This is the commercial reality where 80%+ of there produce goes to.

If the success of the farm and is dependent on the other 10% of the market its a pointless excercise. Recently on a farm visit with our discussion group we visited a farm that was finishing some Friesian under 16 months bulls. This lad finished about 50 every year. Looking at figures it leaves a margin on goodish land of 300-350/head. Up until this visit I was dubious about this system. But it was working well for this lad. Average DW was 282kgs last year at an average of just short of 1150 euro each. With the present beef outlook they will average above 1150 this year. What I taught was really interesting was one lad on poorer land made the point that if he had to house 50 days earlier it would only add less than 50 euro in the growing period. He considered that 3-4 could be carried instead of a suckler cow.

And leasing it blows it all out of the water and that's without taking the fact that it's tax free into account.
Everyone does something different with their farm but if net profit is the holy grail with you you're mad to be even farming your assets,
The last year was the best year of my farming career, couldn't even dream the figures that i got for sheep and land/entitlements, but like you all I could see in the beginning of 2017 was doom and gloom.
I think overthinking is the way farming has made us

Back to tullamore, farmers don't have to sell their heifers for breeding, 4 and 5 star heifers are probably alright to eat too.
Like I've said before, you listen to all the information and use what suits you

charolais0153

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/finishing-dairy-bulls-at-16-months-is-not-viable-teagasc-research/
Dont see a 300 head margin in them. You might ina year like 2015 but definitely not in 2014

wrangler

charolais0153 wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/finishing-dairy-bulls-at-16-months-is-not-viable-teagasc-research/
Dont see a 300 head margin in them. You might ina year like 2015 but definitely not in 2014

Yea I was going to question the figures too, A few of the processor are trying to do it too without much success

Never wrestle with pigs

Was in the sim sale so I saw them all sell too. Fairly poor stock for the most part and prices were a bit high for what they were. None of them will calve down for 2yo and will have to swing around until the following autumn or spring. Im assuming it's the left overs. Allot of them had a bit of flightenis to them too.

Sim heifers went well 420kg €1200/1300
Some nice 460/490 went from €1400/1600 and one making €2010 good stock with years of quality breeding in them.

charolais0153

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Was in the sim sale so I saw them all sell too. Fairly poor stock for the most part and prices were a bit high for what they were. None of them will calve down for 2yo and will have to swing around until the following autumn or spring. Im assuming it's the left overs. Allot of them had a bit of flightenis to them too.

Sim heifers went well 420kg €1200/1300
Some nice 460/490 went from €1400/1600 and one making €2010 good stock with years of quality breeding in them.

Had you heifers for sale?

Never wrestle with pigs

charolais0153 wrote: »

Had you heifers for sale?

Had a few. Sold the rest of them out of the yard. They were the smallest of what was left over. The few weeks extra and out on grass etc really stood to them.

squinn2912

Not too many fools at that same so. I wasn’t especially impressed with the stock at the open day last year but I expected them to sell into mad money with all the pushing. If those girls are 350 kgs now then they’ll go into autumn calving system. That idea came up in another thread and there wasn’t much support for going that way. So does that mean with all considered that the experiment is, this year at least, something of a failure?

Never wrestle with pigs

Some were under 300kg and some over 400 not many. Average daily weight gain was horrible. Some .7 a day. I've heifers doing 1.4 a day.

It just looks a bit like the dairy lads being told to milk as many as possible. If this is the type of stock we are all to have it looks fairly bleek. Good continental cattle with less cows, calving, feed, bedding etc seems a far better to me.

I'm not knocking what they are doing it's very interesting and the pitfalls are just as important to see at the success. We don't have many model suckler farms to look at like this.

squinn2912

That’s an excellent point. I’m all for trying things out and very often the end decision is to go back to what already worked.
At the end of the day it’s hard to beat quality

patsy_mccabe

I think you are missing the point though. The emphasis of this farm is on profit not output. They could have easily gone out day one and bought fancy muscular heifers and got higher prices today but would it be more profitable?
I was at the open day last year too. I wasnt that impressed with the stock on show, but they were mostly 5 star cows, so good calving intervals and plenty of milk. The things you dont see in the sales ring.

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I think you are missing the point though. The emphasis of this farm is on profit not output. They could have easily gone out day one and bought fancy muscular heifers and got higher prices today but would it be more profitable?
I was at the open day last year too. I wasnt that impressed with the stock on show, but they were mostly 5 star cows, so good calving intervals and plenty of milk. The things you dont see in the sales ring.

Not much profit in a 12/13 month old heifer at €800/900. They just don't put on the kgs. You have to remember that any fr cow getting the lim bull either didn't go incalf after a few rounds of ai or didn't come bulling in time. So won't be as fertile as the half that held to the fr straw.

squinn2912

At times I wonder if the ifj have an agenda with pushing dairy and dairy cross. I thought them a bit vague on the selection process too but that may be more detailed since in the paper and I’ve missed it.
Surely there’s a strong link between the output and profitability in this case poor weight gain.
As posted above not important justbto have the success but with the financial backing and expertise involved shouldn’t there be more of the successes?

Never wrestle with pigs

Often thought the same. Is it more "environmentally friendly" for carbon etc to use the left over of dairy for sucklers rather than the usual ch, lim, sim etc

wrangler

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Not much profit in a 12/13 month old heifer at €800/900. They just don't put on the kgs. You have to remember that any fr cow getting the lim bull either didn't go incalf after a few rounds of ai or didn't come bulling in time. So won't be as fertile as the half that held to the fr straw.

Those cows came from suckler herd clear outs, wonder what their history was, they were supposed to be high starred.....the star system must be as dependable as it is in the sheep :rolleyes:

patsy_mccabe

wrangler wrote: »

Those cows came from suckler herd clear outs, wonder what their history was, they were supposed to be high starred.....the star system must be as dependable as it is in the sheep :rolleyes:

No, they weren't clearouts. They came from 2 herds that switched to dairy......if I remember right.

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No, they weren't clearouts. They came from 2 herds that switched to diary......if I remember right.

Well they took the whole herds, good and bad, I'd call that a clearout

charolais0153

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Some were under 300kg and some over 400 not many. Average daily weight gain was horrible. Some .7 a day. I've heifers doing 1.4 a day.

It just looks a bit like the dairy lads being told to milk as many as possible. If this is the type of stock we are all to have it looks fairly bleek. Good continental cattle with less cows, calving, feed, bedding etc seems a far better to me.

I'm not knocking what they are doing it's very interesting and the pitfalls are just as important to see at the success. We don't have many model suckler farms to look at like this.

1.4 since tbey were born?

patsy_mccabe

wrangler wrote: »

Well they took the whole herds, good and bad, I'd call that a clearout

Fair enough. I thought you meant clearance, as in bad ones only.

Never wrestle with pigs

charolais0153 wrote: »

1.4 since tbey were born?

My top ones are doing it after 6 months. I had yearling heifers hit 500kg no worries. After about 100 kg of 19 p nut. Not adlib with a feeder like the bulls

blue5000

squinn2912 wrote: »

Not too many fools at that same so. I wasn’t especially impressed with the stock at the open day last year but I expected them to sell into mad money with all the pushing. If those girls are 350 kgs now then they’ll go into autumn calving system. That idea came up in another thread and there wasn’t much support for going that way. So does that mean with all considered that the experiment is, this year at least, something of a failure?

Realistically though what suckler farmer has money in his/her pocket to consider paying 'mad' money for replacements after the winter-spring we've had?

Prices might have been better if lads didn't have big merhant credit bills, and perhaps fodder bills as well. Most people are either hanging on by the finger nails or down sizing just so they have enough for the genomic scheme.

wrangler

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

My top ones are doing it after 6 months. I had yearling heifers hit 500kg no worries. After about 100 kg of 19 p nut. Not adlib with a feeder like the bulls

1.4kg/day on .5kgmeal/day yea, right.

Next year Rodney we'll be millionaires :rolleyes:

Bullocks

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

My top ones are doing it after 6 months. I had yearling heifers hit 500kg no worries. After about 100 kg of 19 p nut. Not adlib with a feeder like the bulls

You must have everything down to a tee to be hitting that weight at a year . What breeds are they ?

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

And leasing it blows it all out of the water and that's without taking the fact that it's tax free into account.
Everyone does something different with their farm but if net profit is the holy grail with you you're mad to be even farming your assets,
The last year was the best year of my farming career, couldn't even dream the figures that i got for sheep and land/entitlements, but like you all I could see in the beginning of 2017 was doom and gloom.
I think overthinking is the way farming has made us

Back to tullamore, farmers don't have to sell their heifers for breeding, 4 and 5 star heifers are probably alright to eat too.
Like I've said before, you listen to all the information and use what suits you

charolais0153 wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/finishing-dairy-bulls-at-16-months-is-not-viable-teagasc-research/
Dont see a 300 head margin in them. You might ina year like 2015 but definitely not in 2014

wrangler wrote: »

Yea I was going to question the figures too, A few of the processor are trying to do it too without much success

We had Teagasc costing and this owners while not having exact costing gave his input.

Milk Replacer 1/bag 36 euro
Straw 28 euro( calf and finishing stage)
Grass 28 euro
Silage 38 euro ( From housing to finish)
Conc(inc Calf Ration) 2.2T 510
Vet + med 30
Transport/fees 15
Mortality 10
Calf 110( we had to pick a figure as he wasbuying direct and did not wish to divulge)
Variables 35 euro


He buys calves at 60-70kgs, they are weaned after about 1 bag of milk powder, they weight 380-290 at housing in Nov and are slaughtered at about
on average 575 liveweight or 282kgs dW which the average last year. He buy 60 calves and finishes the best 50 other 10 are finished at 20 months along with more he buys as yearlings.This year he has lost no calf and last year he lost one. We put in variables but he was allowing for none as all sheds, fencing, meal bins etc have already been depreciated. He had his vet and Med lower than 35, he vacinates for blackleg and I think for scour but nothing else. He just works through all other issues.

He said most years they average 4/kg, a bit better last year and he expect a bit more this year. He is a bit worried about ration and straw prices next year. From his figures last year they they averaged 1142 if he got 4.05/kg. He said he was in adiscussion group regarding them a few years ago and there was a farmer hitting slightly above 290DW. The bulls will average O+ one against the other and he manages to hit the FS with virtually all.

Bullocks

blue5000 wrote: »

Realistically though what suckler farmer has money in his/her pocket to consider paying 'mad' money for replacements after the winter-spring we've had?

Prices might have been better if lads didn't have big merhant credit bills, and perhaps fodder bills as well. Most people are either hanging on by the finger nails or down sizing just so they have enough for the genomic scheme.

I've never heard as many lads talking of cutting down suckler numbers as this year . I'm surprised prices are holding as well as they are for cattle . Reckon autumn will be tough for sellers this year

charolais0153

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

My top ones are doing it after 6 months. I had yearling heifers hit 500kg no worries. After about 100 kg of 19 p nut. Not adlib with a feeder like the bulls

Thats a gain of 1.25kg/day though...

Bass Reeves

Bullocks wrote: »

I've never heard as many lads talking of cutting down suckler numbers as this year . I'm surprised prices are holding as well as they are for cattle . Reckon autumn will be tough for sellers this year

It came up at our discussion group and with a feed rep lately. There are two main issue straw will be very scarce next winter and there is a huge issue regarding what amount of grain will come in at harvest time. This could make winter finishing costs prohibitive next year. Silage/hay may well be an issue as well. I have to agree with what Willfarmer has been posting that getting forage even if quality is down abit should be the target this year.

Sucklers just do not stack up because of cost and economics of scale. Sucklers in general is a low output system. Another issue is there are another 200k dairy bred cattle around with HE and AA calves yearling starting to flood into the system. Yes exports are up 100K but it is only taking 50% of the excess output. Land is being redirected from drystock to dairying through leasing, silage requirements and tillage.

This will force a drop in stores and yearling's this year I expect along with the fodder issue. which will impact on calf prices next year. This may increase calf exports but the decline in sucklers will continue

Never wrestle with pigs

wrangler wrote: »

1.4kg/day on .5kgmeal/day yea, right.

Next year Rodney we'll be millionaires :rolleyes:

Nothing until off the cows and 1.5 kg for 60/70 days after.