Renault Zoe // First Car

Gumbi

Hi,

I'm probably going to buy a car soon. I'm a mid 20s male and only just got my full license, so I expect to be paying a lot for insurance (but that's another story) - and am considering buying an EV as my first purchase. I have yet to comprehensively crunch the numbers (obviously EV are cheaper, especially in the long run, but the cost benefit might not be worth it in my case in terms of potential returns), but think it's the better option in terms of saving money (being green is a great side benefit).

I have a decent amount of cash saved up, and am probably willing to spend anything up to 10k on a car (maybe I should be spending much less, I don't know...) given insurance could probably be anything up to 3 grand on top of that.

This makes a 2012/2013 Leaf feasible from a cursory glance. I have also been looking at the Renault Zoe, which seems to be quite a bit cheaper and has a slightly better range (about 85/90 miles vs 75 miles roughly speaking for the models in those years). It's also smaller but that's irrelevant to me; at the moment I'm considering it purely from the point of view of money saved over long term and practical considerations like range.

Any general thoughts as to which I might choose? I'm still at the early stages of this kind of decision, so I'm very open to direction. I did read a bit about Zoe's battery being on rental or something? So that's an extra monthly cost I think? Is this correct?

Or maybe I shouldn't be spending so much on my first car and I should grab a cheaper, relatively efficient Skoda Fabia for much less? Maybe this saves more in the medium/long term? (Probably not the right place to get an answer for that :P ) Truly, I don't know and I'd be interested in any insight.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to any input.

ewj1978

Cars cost you money to buy, run and sell.

That's basically it. If you can do without a car don't get one. Think of all the cash you'd save!

As for Ev's, work out the numbers. If you're doing small mileage then IMO an EV (from a cash saving point of view) isn't worth it.
If you do 15-20k a year then go for it. It'll save a fortune.
or
If you're environmentally and socially conscious get in an EV now. They're a pleasure to drive and you won't regret it.
I'd personally stay away from battery rentals but that's me being unwilling to pay it.

mel.b

My first thought at your age, where will you be charging the car? Are you living at home and can get a charge point installed or are you renting? Many landlords won't let you install a charge point.You may also end up moving around a bit at which would mean it wouldn't be worth installing a charge point as well. If you're in Dublin, use of charging spots is in very high demand and I know I wouldn't like to be depending on them on a daily basis. What sort of daily mileage will you be doing?

A lot of the Zoe's do have battery rental on them, which makes them cheaper to buy, but IMO you might as well just pay for a cheaper petrol car given that you'll be paying for battery rental and having the hassle of probably trying to find somewhere to charge it everyday (I'm assuming you won't be getting a home charge point installed!). It'll get tired very quickly.

I have a leaf and i love it, but if I was renting I probably wouldn't go electric, especially in Dublin at the moment.

Gumbi

Thanks for the responses.

At the moment I'm at home, but this could well change very soon. It depends on upcoming job opportunities. The aforementioned job opportunities, if they come through, will also have a knock on effect as to how much driving I do (currently would only be doing about 20 miles a day on average while working) and whether I continue staying at home.

Hmm. Lots of considerations to make!

How feasible are long distance journeys in EVs? For example, Limerick to Dublin? THere are charge points along the way and a 30 minute stop is probably warranted for a top up, would that be accurate?

mel.b

I live in Clare and have a 30kwh leaf. In Summer, Clare to Dublin is a one stop trip on the M6, charge in Dublin and then one charge on the way home again. Winter it is a two stop trip each way (plus charging in Dublin) which really makes it a long trip. I think the M6 is a bit quieter in terms of charger use than the M7 (which is why I take the M6 - either is the same distance for me).

Yes, you'll need at least 30min for a top up, but remember there could be someone else charging when you get there so you might have to wait. Others with a 24kwh leaf will tell you if one stop or two is needed on Dublin to Limerick.

ewj1978

Limerick to Dublin is 120miles. that's 2 charges to get there. another 3 to get home. Take the train.

PukkaStukka

ewj1978 wrote: »

If you're doing small mileage then IMO an EV (from a cash saving point of view) isn't worth it.
If you do 15-20k a year then go for it. It'll save a fortune.

I'd have a different take on this. If you do short stop start journeys than I'd take an EV hands down. If you were doing 15-20k a year, that's 300-400 a week, so how often are you recharging ? It would become a big pain in the ass very quickly, particulaly if you couldn't get away with just an overnight one and no more so than in the winter

ewj1978

I was doing 40k/kms per year in my 30kw Leaf. Savings of about 3k p/a over a diesel. Charged at home at nights on non night rate. so i'd have saved even more on night rate.

I'd agree with Pukka that its great in city driving but again a cheap small petrol isn't gonna burn that much.

tedpan

My wife's first car was a Leaf. Easy to drive, lots of fun and not bad on insurance. Electric is the future, best of luck with it!

Gumbi

Lots to chew on here.

What happens if I wish to visit somewhere without a charger? Ballybunion is 50 miles from Limerick for example, and seemingly has no charge points. What would I do in that case, or is it simply a no go?

Is it possible to charge straight from a 13 amp socket? I presume it's quite slow that way, but is it even possible? Where would one charge if one were to visit somewhere like Ballybunion?

I think the maths to consider here is how would it compare to something like a Fabia, which is a few 1000 quid cheaper, and relatively fuel efficient, over several years with probably a low amount of driving (say 2 thirds of national average - complete guess but probably accurate for me). That's what it boils down to financially in my eyes. Of course the environmental aspect has punch too for me, but financially it mightn't be enough to tip the scales.

mel.b

With the leaf you can get a 'granny cable' which will charge (slowly) from a standard plug. For a trip like Limerick to Bullybunnion return you'd have to stop and charge at either Foyes or Listowel and neither are fast chargers.

Gumbi

mel.b wrote: »

With the leaf you can get a 'granny cable' which will charge (slowly) from a standard plug. For a trip like Limerick to Bullybunnion return you'd have to stop and charge at either Foyes or Listowel and neither are fast chargers.

Seems reasonable! Google Maps doesn't quite pick up every charge point with a given search (maybe there are different types of points or something) so I wasn't seeing any in that region barring listowel and Tralee.

In terms of range the 30kw/h would be brilliant but it may be out of reach in terms of budget or how much I'm willing to spend.

Do dealers usually include the grant when advertising prices on adverts? Like this one?

http://www.adverts.ie/15208282

unkel

Don't even think of buying any EV, until you know what way your work situation will be. In the meantime, keep on reading here and ask questions. That's how most of us started on our journey to becoming an EV owner

Gumbi

unkel wrote: »

Don't even think of buying any EV, until you know what way your work situation will be. In the meantime, keep on reading here and ask questions. That's how most of us started on our journey to becoming an EV owner

I'm extremely frugal with my money, so don't worry about that! I have enough money saved up to pay for anything up to 15k up front to be honest. All I care about is value for money and bang for buck. If spending 15k meant saving more money down the line vs 12k then I'm up for it. I don't need the money for anything in particular in the near future, and pending continued financial stability I am happy to splash out for something that will repay me over time.

Thanks for your input!

unkel

I'm pretty prudent with my money too

I bought a brand new EV a bit over a year ago (for €25k) and if I sold it today, I would get almost all of my money back, even in a private sale. The car has cost me €0.00 in maintenance and about €30 in fuel over 17000km

mel.b

Gumbi wrote: »

Seems reasonable! Google Maps doesn't quite pick up every charge point with a given search (maybe there are different types of points or something) so I wasn't seeing any in that region barring listowel and Tralee.

In terms of range the 30kw/h would be brilliant but it may be out of reach in terms of budget or how much I'm willing to spend.

Do dealers usually include the grant when advertising prices on adverts? Like this one?

http://www.adverts.ie/15208282

There are a couple of apps that have the location of charging points...ecars, zapmap and plug share.

Used ev’s don’t have any grant available other the the €600 for installation of charging point.

As unkel said, i think really home and work need to be stable...you don’t want to be but something that is unsuitable in 12mths time because you’ve either moved house and have to rely in public charging or your commute is too long to do on a single charge.

PukkaStukka

Best advice you're getting OP is not what to buy, but wait and see what your circumstances turn out to be!

Gumbi

Of course the choice I ultimately make will be dependent on a stable financial future in the short + medium term. I would never spend so much money without that cushion.

Certainly the prospect of an EV is exciting for someone who's interested in technology, the environment, saving money etc.

Someone I know managed to grab a display model 2016 (registered December 2015) 30kw Leaf for 16500 a few months ago and got a 3000 euro grant from work on top of that which I think is an amazing deal.

ELM327

Gumbi wrote: »

Of course the choice I ultimately make will be dependent on a stable financial future in the short + medium term. I would never spend so much money without that cushion.

Certainly the prospect of an EV is exciting for someone who's interested in technology, the environment, saving money etc.

Someone I know managed to grab a display model 2016 (registered December 2015) 30kw Leaf for 16500 a few months ago and got a 3000 euro grant from work on top of that which I think is an amazing deal.

EVs have gone up in price due to high demand, in that last few months.
30kWh leafs are 18-21k now, you'd do well to get one for 16500

Gumbi

ELM327 wrote: »

EVs have gone up in price due to high demand, in that last few months.
30kWh leafs are 18-21k now, you'd do well to get one for 16500

Absolutely; without some kind of grant there's no way I'd get that price.

Looks like a few nice 2014 leafs in a price range I can manage. From my understanding they have good batteries and are the 1.5 model which is preferable to the earlier iterations. The 80 mile range is a bit limiting but nothing that couldn't be worked out I'm sure.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

EVs have gone up in price due to high demand, in that last few months.
30kWh leafs are 18-21k now, you'd do well to get one for 16500

Yeah they are terrible value for money now from about €18k for a 2016 when you can have a 2017 Ioniq from about €23k

The sweet spot for the Leafs is an early 2015 24kWh for a bit over €10k imho, but these have also firmed up over the past few months

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Yeah they are terrible value for money now from about €18k for a 2016 when you can have a 2017 Ioniq from about €23k

True, but not without going to the UK for the Ioniq. People - myself included - are lazy. They like to buy from Irish dealers on finance/PCP. I paid about 2.5k for the privilege! But I may not have gotten car finance from the bank for a UK based car.

unkel wrote: »

The sweet spot for the Leafs is an early 2015 24kWh for a bit over €10k imho, but these have also firmed up over the past few months

Agreed. If you buy a 2015 24kWh - particularly in SVE spec - for 10k you'd be doing well, assuming you can live with the 100-110km range in real world driving.

For comparison, a battery owned Zoe could be got for similar money and a 15-30km longer range. But it's a smaller, less well specced car.

I've driven both.

Gumbi

Where are these 2015 Leafs for 10k? That's something that is up my alley if I can get my head around the range.

The Zoe seems like a good option too as it's cheaper and has better range (spec + size don't matter to me too much right now), but am unsure of the battery rental thing (can you buy them outright?).

ELM327

Gumbi wrote: »

Where are these 2015 Leafs for 10k? That's something that is up my alley if I can get my head around the range.

The Zoe seems like a good option too as it's cheaper and has better range (spec + size don't matter to me too much right now), but am unsure of the battery rental thing (can you buy them outright?).

You can buy them outright,
Phil in Electric Autos often has both types, battery rented at between 7-8.5k and the battery owned ones a few k more.

Gumbi

ELM327 wrote: »

You can buy them outright,
Phil in Electric Autos often has both types, battery rented at between 7-8.5k and the battery owned ones a few k more.

Thanks. Other than spec and size, what other advantages might a Leaf have over a Zoe? It seems to me a Zoe is better bang for buck in my case, especially with the slight range edge.

I was told by someone that the Leaf had a better charging network. Is this true? How relevant is this if so?

ELM327

Gumbi wrote: »

Thanks. Other than spec and size, what other advantages might a Leaf have over a Zoe? It seems to me a Zoe is better bang for buck in my case, especially with the slight range edge.

I was told by someone that the Leaf had a better charging network. Is this true? How relevant is this if so?

The Zoe has a better charging network, so disbelieve anything that person says because they clearly have never set foot in an EV

Every 22kW charger (of which there are over 1000 in Ireland) will charge the Zoe from empty to 99% in 1 hour.
Then there are Fast AC43 chargers which are twice as fast, but due to tapering, will charge 0-80% in around half an hour.

Having driven a leaf for 60k km I would suggest if size and spec doesn't bother you then you should get a Zoe. I'd have killed for the 22kW AC charging that the Zoe has. The leaf charges at 3 or 6kW (depending on the model) for comparison.

Gumbi

ELM327 wrote: »

The Zoe has a better charging network, so disbelieve anything that person says because they clearly have never set foot in an EV

Every 22kW charger (of which there are over 1000 in Ireland) will charge the Zoe from empty to 99% in 1 hour.
Then there are Fast AC43 chargers which are twice as fast, but due to tapering, will charge 0-80% in around half an hour.

Having driven a leaf for 60k km I would suggest if size and spec doesn't bother you then you should get a Zoe. I'd have killed for the 22kW AC charging that the Zoe has. The leaf charges at 3 or 6kW (depending on the model) for comparison.

Thanks for the prompt, helpful responses first of all, it's much appreciated.

Renault quotes about 93 miles in temperate climates and 62 miles in cold climate use. Are these figures reasonable? Real world usage will be in or around those figures? Comfortably over 80 miles in good condition seems like a good deal breaker for me in this.

ELM327

Gumbi wrote: »

Thanks for the prompt, helpful responses first of all, it's much appreciated.

Renault quotes about 93 miles in temperate climates and 62 miles in cold climate use. Are these figures reasonable? Real world usage will be in or around those figures? Comfortably over 80 miles in good condition seems like a good deal breaker for me in this.

I'd expect the average Irish user to achieve 62 miles in very cold (below 0) weather and the 92 would be achievable in a good summer's day only.

I only test drove the Zoe, I did 60k in a leaf so I don't have experience of pushing the range in the Zoe to see exactly what you can get.

I'd suggest going to either of the facebook groups mentioned, there's bound to be others asking the same questions

Gumbi

ELM327 wrote: »

I'd expect the average Irish user to achieve 62 miles in very cold (below 0) weather and the 92 would be achievable in a good summer's day only.

I only test drove the Zoe, I did 60k in a leaf so I don't have experience of pushing the range in the Zoe to see exactly what you can get.

I'd suggest going to either of the facebook groups mentioned, there's bound to be others asking the same questions

I'll certainly investigate further. But that's a nice little bump in terms of range over the Leaf and the price difference makes a big difference to me.

Thanks.

beauf

A few good blogs on youtube from Zoe Owners.

I liked it when I test drove it. Seems a bit pricey for the bang per buck compared to a leaf. Even though the Zoe is a smaller car which might suit better.

Sounds like it can be tricky to get an older one without a battery lease. I'm open to correction on that.

Gumbi

beauf wrote: »

A few good blogs on youtube from Zoe Owners.

I liked it when I test drove it. Seems a bit pricey for the bang per buck compared to a leaf. Even though the Zoe is a smaller car which might suit better.

Sounds like it can be tricky to get an older one without a battery lease. I'm open to correction on that.

I'll shoot a few emails and ask in some forums. It seems like there is value to be had in used Zoes in NI 2014-2016, quite low in mileage and price. But some (most?) are definitely ones with leased batteries, as one I enquired about was.

What kind of hassle is there in importing a car from NI? There is some kind of import duty I imagine?

unkel

Nope, no hassle and zero costs (no import duty / VAT / VRT or anything else)

All Zoes that seem reasonably priced will have battery lease. I wouldn't go there, seriously. If your budget is very tight, I'd get a first gen Leaf from the UK for about GBP5.5k-6k

Gumbi

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no hassle and zero costs (no import duty / VAT / VRT or anything else)

All Zoes that seem reasonably priced will have battery lease. I wouldn't go there, seriously. If your budget is very tight, I'd get a first gen Leaf from the UK for about GBP5.5k-6k

I was coming to the conclusion that a Zoe might be better for me given the range advantage (spec or size isn't as important to me, getting from A to B is moreso important) and the fact it's slightly cheaper. Would you not agree?

The 1.5 2014/2015 better-battery (slower degrading AFAIK) Leafs seem to be a bit on the dearer side to me.

I'm happy to go as far as maybe 10k euro.

beauf

The Zoe is a bit spartan vs a leaf and also terms of bank for buck. Some dealers are importing non battery lease ones.

beauf

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no hassle and zero costs (no import duty / VAT / VRT or anything else)

All Zoes that seem reasonably priced will have battery lease. I wouldn't go there, seriously. If your budget is very tight, I'd get a first gen Leaf from the UK for about GBP5.5k-6k

if the price was the same and no battery lease you still get a first gen leaf? Why?

Gumbi

beauf wrote: »

The Zoe is a bit spartan vs a leaf and also terms of bank for buck. Some dealers are importing non battery lease ones.

Sure, but size and spec are less relvant for me. The Zoe will get better range as far as I can tell, and is cheaper to boot. It fits my needs more, wouldn't you agree?

Gumbi

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no hassle and zero costs (no import duty / VAT / VRT or anything else)

All Zoes that seem reasonably priced will have battery lease. I wouldn't go there, seriously. If your budget is very tight, I'd get a first gen Leaf from the UK for about GBP5.5k-6k

Interesting. So the only hassle involved is the potential inconvenience of bringing the car from the UK to here? But in theory I can buy a car in the UK and just drive it over here?

Thanks. I think I'll have a look at Zoes and see if I can get a battery owned one for about 7-8.5kGBP.

beauf

Gumbi wrote: »

Sure, but size and spec are less relvant for me. The Zoe will get better range as far as I can tell, and is cheaper to boot. It fits my needs more, wouldn't you agree?

Others are more expert than me. Is like to know why others think the 1st leaf is a better buy.

I liked the Zoe because it was smaller on the driveway for a second car and had fast charging amongst the older used EVs. I also liked the simpler interior and exterior looks tbh.

But I don't know if it's a smarter buy. I decided to buy a much cheaper petrol car as a stop gap.

unkel

There's a battery owned 2012 Leaf on Autotrader for GBP5300. You'd bring that in for a touch over €6k if you haggle a bit and get a cheap flight and ferry. You will have almost zero depreciation on that car. It will need an NCT though, so that's a risk (even if it has a brand now MOT, that says nothing)

beauf wrote: »

if the price was the same and no battery lease you still get a first gen leaf? Why?

Show me a €6k battery owned Zoe?

Reasons for Leaf over Zoe: Zoe is very basic car, spartan even. It's slow, not as well equipped, not as comfortable as Leaf and far less reliable and it doesn't charge as quickly. Also CHAdeMO is the only system that has V2G / V2H reasonably easy to implement (hardware that works exists)

Reasons for Zoe over Leaf: Looks (no surprises there ), public AC charge points everywhere

I'm not 100% on the range comparison between these cars, but both are fairly limited (Zoe particularly in winter)

unkel

Just checked Autotrader and the cheapest battery owned Zoe (2015) is GBP11k LOL!

That's almost BMW i3 money...

Gumbi

That's quite a cheap option to be honest, especially if the battery is in good nick. Is there similar value to be had in 2013/2014 models? From what I've read, the Lizard battery has less degradation. The car will also be newer, so less mileage and so less wear on the battery meaning more range, which is ideal given the limited range on the Leaf as is.

I think paying an extra ~2k might make it worth it in such a case, would you agree?

beauf

There were a few older ones for 7-8k in Ireland a few weeks back. Seem to be all gone now. I assumed they were still there.

Seem to be a lot of 2015-14 with very low mileage like under 10k (km) suddenly for sale. Dealer clearing old stocks? A lot don't mention battery ownership.

Anyway they seem to be over priced now. I dunno is that just Ireland. They seem a lot more popular in Europe.

unkel

beauf wrote: »

I dunno is that just Ireland. They seem a lot more popular in Europe.

And tbh I don't know why they are so popular. Most of them on the continent are battery lease. Which makes the car sale proof and takes away from the monthly savings of having an EV.

The new price here of the current 41kWh model is far too high, which doesn't help. It costs the same as a L40 or Ioniq, which are at least one full step up in terms of size, spec, refinement, performance, etc. The Zoe is just a Clio supermini for goodness sake! The 41kWh should be sold for around €20k on the road. Not close to €30k. I want to like the Zoe, I like its looks and I'd love to give one to my daughters when they are old enough to drive, but I find it difficult to like it with the pricing and the battery lease...

deadduck

unkel wrote: »

I'm pretty prudent with my money too

I bought a brand new EV a bit over a year ago (for €25k) and if I sold it today, I would get almost all of my money back, even in a private sale. The car has cost me €0.00 in maintenance and about €30 in fuel over 17000km

Is that a typo? €30 translates to 17000km?

tedpan

deadduck wrote:

Is that a typo? €30 translates to 17000km?

Free charging with about 15-20 home charges

deadduck

tedpan wrote: »

Free charging with about 15-20 home charges

Ah ok, that makes sense, thanks for clarifying