Public charging etiquette

BobbyBingo

Being new to the EV community, I'm wondering about etiquette when it comes to street or public charging. I couldn't find a thread that answers my question though - so I hope it's not a duplicate.. and apologies for the newbie nature of my q's!

A few scenarios.

#1 There's an ESB charge point on a street nearby. Used a bit during the day but nearly every night, there are a couple of Leaf's plugged in from dusk til dawn. Is it okay to plug in like this overnight ? I don't want to be the one to plug in like this and end up upsetting someone..

#2 Was charging at an ESB fast charger recently and another EV pulled in next to me and he was clearly waiting for me to finish. Should he have got out and asked me how long I'd be or should I have got out and told him how long I'd be ? Neither happened - just wondering what / if there is an unwritten rule here..

#3 Dublin Airport T2 - if heading off for the day (out early , back late) - acceptable to leave the car plugged in and hence occupying a charge point even though it'll be well charged before I get back ? What do people generally do ?

#4 Similar enough to the above. No parking spaces available in a car park except 2 spaces at an EV charge point. I can park and charge but know that I wont be back until well after the car is charged. What's the reasonable position here ?

Thanks
B

unkel

1. slow (destination) charger. You can charge all day or all night
2. he should have asked / chatted to you. Not up to you to read his mind what his needs are
3. see 1. Charge as long as you like, even well after the car is fully charged
4. see 1. Again a slow destination charger

Basically people can and do what they want regardless of the consequences for others.

Ideally you should get as much charge as you need and move on. I mean that's the right thing to do isn't it, why take up a charger just because you can , because it's free ?

If at a fast charger and there's no one around and you're there for a free charge that's fine but if someone comes and needs to charge then I would call that considerate to move on and let them in.

I was inconvenienced many times because of people using chargers for free while shopping for instance and coming back to the car an hour later while they were inside shopping but I should have disconnected the car.

I've experienced it too often and it's quiet unpleasant when you need to get home after a long day.

If I had to leave the car while charging I left a note with my number on the dash, at least I could tell someone I'd only be a few mins.

That's my view on it, not saying I'm right but I would not inconvenience others just because I can.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

1. slow (destination) charger. You can charge all day or all night
2. he should have asked / chatted to you. Not up to you to read his mind what his needs are
3. see 1. Charge as long as you like, even well after the car is fully charged
4. see 1. Again a slow destination charger

+1 to 1,3 &4

Destination chargers are just that, you plug in go about your business and come back when you are done, not the car. This has been stated by ecars before. Obviously fast chargers are different

#2 is optional, some people are happy to sit in the car and wait for you to finish. I only ever ask the "how long will you be" question for one of two reasons:

• if the person is over 80% (or on the third blinking light if the SOC is not visible on the charger)
• If i'm in an urgent need to charge

unkel

I almost always try have a chat with whoever is charging before me. I feel it's a nice thing to do to keep a bit of the innovator spirit and community going. Talk about your experiences / cars etc. while you're both waiting. So if you are there charging first and the waiting party is trying to talk to you, it would be rude to ignore them

But it is of course 100% ok if you are the waiting party, not to want to engage with the person charging and just wait or go away. But it can make the person charging first feel a bit uneasy like the OP. I've been in that situation before myself a good few times. Sometimes I just make a gesture to the waiting party, like showing 5 fingers, meaning I'll be there for a further 5 minutes

mickdw

unkel wrote: »

Sometimes I just make a gesture to the waiting party, like showing 5 fingers, meaning I'll be there for a further 5 minutes

Lucky it wasn't 2 minutes left!

unkel

Lurking in here, Mick?

Got that 330e yet, or will it be a Tesla?

Shefwedfan

1. slow ....use as much as you want, just unplug when finished
2. My view on this is that the arriving driver should get out of his/her car and ask you. But I made this point on facebook forum and got head bitten off. According to some people you are supposed to get out of your car to update them. This is ludacris in my mind. Why should you get out of your warm car
3. use Quickpark, get premium service, they will charge car before you arrive back and have it parked beside you. Then you dont have to worry about blocking another user.
4. Personally I would not block a charger if I knew I wasn't going to be back. If I needed a charge then I would make sure I could drop back....

Please note these are personally opinions. I dont actually use the charging system, bar 3 times now I think. I do all charging at home where I just argue with myself:-)

creedp

Shefwedfan wrote: »

1. slow ....use as much as you want, just unplug when finished
2. My view on this is that the arriving driver should get out of his/her car and ask you. But I made this point on facebook forum and got head bitten off. According to some people you are supposed to get out of your car to update them. This is ludacris in my mind. Why should you get out of your warm car
3. use Quickpark, get premium service, they will charge car before you arrive back and have it parked beside you. Then you dont have to worry about blocking another user.
4. Personally I would not block a charger if I knew I wasn't going to be back. If I needed a charge then I would make sure I could drop back....

Please note these are personally opinions. I dont actually use the charging system, bar 3 times now I think. I do all charging at home where I just argue with myself:-)

As a very recent EV driver I would totally subscribe to point 4 above. There are so few chargers and the range of many of the current cars so limited that I would not block a charging station. On a number of occasions I have used the ecars a.c. chargers when I needed a top up charge with limited time available to charge. Whatever about a non EV hogging the space - use the defence of lack of understanding of EV requirements - I would be upset if I thought an EV driver didn't appreciate this issue.

Luckily DCC apply parking charges for on street spaces otherwise EV drivers might be tempted to hog spaces all day long.

Ewan Hoosarmi

In my county, charging spaces are free to use as long as you're charging, with a maximum stay of 3 hours regardless. If you fall foul of these rules, you can, and will get a ticket. That concentrates the mind on getting back and off the charger when the car has finished charging.

Harsh, but fair.

fricatus

creedp wrote: »

Luckily DCC apply parking charges for on street spaces otherwise EV drivers might be tempted to hog spaces all day long.

The council in Waterford have a solution to that: free parking all the time for EVs. Great city!

It means you can happily move off the charger without feeling you're giving up the benefit of free parking. The policy reviewed annually - not sure how much longer it will last.

I did arrive at a fast charger once to find an Outlander there. Am I correct in thinking it's a PHEV and can only charge via the Type 2 connector at a fairly slow rate? I would think it's probably bad etiquette to hog a fast charger if you can just use the petrol in the tank, particularly if the charge is very slow and you could just charge at a regular charger.

Maybe I could have also used the CCS plug (it was an Efacec triple header), but TBH I didn't bother finding out - I just went to my destination as it wasn't far away and then charged when passing by on the way back.

Shefwedfan

fricatus wrote: »

The council in Waterford have a solution to that: free parking all the time for EVs. Great city!

As the amount of electric cars grow you will quickly regret free parking. Some "people" will leave cars all day everyday plugged in because they can. A minimum period should be a minimum.

Free parking in large cities is pointless, why should electric cars get free parking?

fricatus wrote: »

I did arrive at a fast charger once to find an Outlander there. Am I correct in thinking it's a PHEV and can only charge via the Type 2 connector at a fairly slow rate? I would think it's probably bad etiquette to hog a fast charger if you can just use the petrol in the tank, particularly if the charge is very slow and you could just charge at a regular charger.

Maybe I could have also used the CCS plug (it was an Efacec triple header), but TBH I didn't bother finding out - I just went to my destination as it wasn't far away and then charged when passing by on the way back.

The PHEV on fast charger is a regular gripe with users. I dont see the issue, they are entitled to use the charge points the same as every other user

zilog_jones

fricatus wrote: »

I did arrive at a fast charger once to find an Outlander there. Am I correct in thinking it's a PHEV and can only charge via the Type 2 connector at a fairly slow rate?

It's Chademo at around 35 kW, so a hell of a lot faster than most PHEVs.

I would think it's probably bad etiquette to hog a fast charger if you can just use the petrol in the tank, particularly if the charge is very slow and you could just charge at a regular charger.

It's not that simple - people don't buy PHEVs to "just use petrol", otherwise what's the point in having one? But they should give priority to BEV owners at fast chargers. And was there a standard charger anywhere nearby?

mickdw

unkel wrote: »

Lurking in here, Mick?

Got that 330e yet, or will it be a Tesla?

Defo no tesla.
330e is a strange one. They are reasonable now but I don't want one - model too long in tooth now.

stesaurus

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

In my county, charging spaces are free to use as long as you're charging, with a maximum stay of 3 hours regardless. If you fall foul of these rules, you can, and will get a ticket. That concentrates the mind on getting back and off the charger when the car has finished charging.

Harsh, but fair.

So any commuters then are kind of fudged. No parking at rail/bus depots that can ferry people into the cities much more economically.
Seems a bit beyond fair? It shouldn't be a set rule for destination points

creedp

stesaurus wrote: »

So any commuters then are kind of fudged. No parking at rail/bus depots that can ferry people into the cities much more economically.
Seems a bit beyond fair? It shouldn't be a set rule for destination points

The early bird catches the worm .. in time it will be like the queues forming outside stores on Christmas night in order to get the best deal the following morning. In my humble opinion the ability to park indefinitely at a public charge point funded by the taxpayer is not so problematic for the early adopters when the number of EV's is low. However, I personally don't think its sustainable / reasonable as the number of EVs increase while the number of charge points remain unchanged. Again, in IMHO, Public charge points are just that, a location to charge your car and then move on. No problem with private points such as hotels, shopping centres, etc making up their own rules. However, they might find they are losing potential customers goodo if they allow a couple of customers / opportunist parkers to hog their sites for extended periods.

Ewan Hoosarmi

stesaurus wrote: »

So any commuters then are kind of fudged. No parking at rail/bus depots that can ferry people into the cities much more economically.
Seems a bit beyond fair? It shouldn't be a set rule for destination points

All I'm saying is that's the policy that the council told me. Irish Rail, or whoever runs park and ride car parks, might have a different take on it.

But how is it fair for a driver to bugger off to work for the day blocking a level 2 charger for, probably, 5 hours more than they need it? I might need it to get me home if the one and only fast charger is down.

stesaurus

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

All I'm saying is that's the policy that the council told me. Irish Rail, or whoever runs park and ride car parks, might have a different take on it.

But how is it fair for a driver to bugger off to work for the day blocking a level 2 charger for, probably, 5 hours more than they need it? I might need it to get me home if the one and only fast charger is down.

The easiest solution is a lot more chargers at genuine destination points like this and not have a stupid blanket rule like a 3 hour max stay. No need for them to be 22kW either if stays are to be expected for 8+ hours.

ELM327

It's a destination charger.

The solution to no available chargers is to add more, not to expect someoen to come back on the train at lunch to move their car then go back to work
That's ridiculous

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a destination charger.

The solution to no available chargers is to add more, not to expect someoen to come back on the train at lunch to move their car then go back to work
That's ridiculous

Agree its ridiculous that there are so few chargers when we want people to move to EVs. I was focussing more on public on street chargers than on those in railway stations etc. However, problem is though that not every rail user parks their car in the morning and doesn't come back to it until late in the evening. However, if all available chargers are taken up by a small number of people who want the convenience of having their car fully charged on their return from work, this leaves no service for all the other potential users of the chargers during the day .. who is more / less deserving of the Irish Rail service?

ELM327

creedp wrote: »

Agree its ridiculous that there are so few chargers when we want people to move to EVs. I was focussing more on public on street chargers than on those in railway stations etc. However, problem is though that not every rail user parks their car in the morning and doesn't come back to it until late in the evening. However, if all available chargers are taken up by a small number of people who want the convenience of having their car fully charged on their return from work, this leaves no service for all the other potential users of the chargers during the day .. who is more / less deserving of the Irish Rail service?

Solution is more chargers.
Look at Norway. Or Germany. Or California. There's many destination chargers. We're unfortunately well behind the curve.
They are destination chargers.
People are entitled to park there, charge the car, go about their business, and then move on when they are finished not the car.
It's not a fast charger, which is for quick 30 minute topups en route.

Ewan Hoosarmi

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a destination charger.

The solution to no available chargers is to add more, not to expect someoen to come back on the train at lunch to move their car then go back to work
That's ridiculous

I'm pretty sure I didn't suggest that. However, a working charger is blocked for the full day. Not the ideal situation if it happens to be the only working charger for a very long distance. It's just a symptom of our inadequate charging infrastructure.

Of course the solution is more chargers. But, how many of us are holding our breath waiting for that to happen?

ELM327

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I didn't suggest that. However, a working charger is blocked for the full day. Not the ideal situation if it happens to be the only working charger for a very long distance. It's just a symptom of our inadequate charging infrastructure.

Of course the solution is more chargers. But, how many of us are holding our breath waiting for that to happen?

I'm not holding my breath for any network expansion this year.
Well it wouldn't at least be wasted breath, complaining about someone using a destination charger as intended.;)

unkel

The solution is a 100 more fast chargers, not 20000 more destination chargers

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

The solution is a 100 more fast chargers, not 20000 more destination chargers

Destination chargers are a waste of time and money.....

The only place I can see them is maybe 20-30 of them installed in a shopping centre environment as the business wants you to stay in the centre.....even at that I think a major waste of time

Thud

I use a park and ride destination charger, currently enough chargers vs the amount of cars using them but was thinking about what will drive expansion:
1) more EV sales/registrations
2) ECcars registration and charger usage
3) Demand for more to eCars etc.

i.e. Will we need to lobby for more at each location or will eCars roll them out as demand grows?

liamog

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Destination chargers are a waste of time and money.....

The only place I can see them is maybe 20-30 of them installed in a shopping centre environment as the business wants you to stay in the centre.....even at that I think a major waste of time

Park and Ride for the Luas/Irish Rail probably also make sense.
Install dual 16A sockets at the center of every 4 spaces. You're going to be there for 9 hours anyway. May as well take on 30kWh. Could cover some of the non-homechargers.

catharsis

there are 2 slow (22KW) chargers on the street outside an office for a large irish company, the building they are outside probably holds 500+ people and while there is parking inside it is at a premium, is only available for full time staff and no any of the many contractors and suppliers on site and street parking is EUR1/hour IIRC.

Every time I have passed recently the same 2 leafs have been parked on those spaces. at 8:25 this AM they were there and at 16:00 they were still there.

this is almost ingenious, if not for the fact that I was hoping to use the charger. not only are these BEV drivers saving on fuel they are saving 40/week on parking charges also.... at the cost of making the chargers completely useless to anyone else.

destination chargers yes, but there's a point where it becomes taking the piss?

waynegalway

catharsis wrote: »

there are 2 slow (22KW) chargers on the street outside an office for a large irish company, the building they are outside probably holds 500+ people and while there is parking inside it is at a premium, is only available for full time staff and no any of the many contractors and suppliers on site and street parking is EUR1/hour IIRC.

Every time I have passed recently the same 2 leafs have been parked on those spaces. at 8:25 this AM they were there and at 16:00 they were still there.

this is almost ingenious, if not for the fact that I was hoping to use the charger. not only are these BEV drivers saving on fuel they are saving 40/week on parking charges also.... at the cost of making the chargers completely useless to anyone else.

destination chargers yes, but there's a point where it becomes taking the piss?

Some of that type of behaviour may change when we have to pay at public chargers. The sooner the better IMO.

JackieChan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Destination chargers are a waste of time and money.....

The only place I can see them is maybe 20-30 of them installed in a shopping centre environment as the business wants you to stay in the centre.....even at that I think a major waste of time

I think a shopping centre is a great place to have 7kw chargers installed. Furthermore I would suggest that the government introduce a small tax relief(for 2-3 yrs maybe) to retrofit some charging points. Not huge money just something to incentivise it and bring it to the attention of those that operate them.

Perfect spot for a bank of 20 Kw DC chargers to be honest.

AC would be cheaper but I wouldn't limit it to 7 Kw , 22 Kw 3 phase shouldn't be much more expensive.

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/ev-qc20-quick-charger/

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Perfect spot for a bank of 20 Kw DC chargers to be honest.

AC would be cheaper but I wouldn't limit it to 7 Kw , 22 Kw 3 phase shouldn't be much more expensive.

http://electricmobility.efacec.com/ev-qc20-quick-charger/

I would guesstimate that less than 10% of EVs on the road in Ireland, possibly less than 5% even, could take 3 phase AC. 7kW is perfectly adequate.

20kW DC chargers are a bit of a nothing really. In a bigger battery (like 60kWh plus) they can be a slow charger or something like that in a shopping centre. But the smaller battery 20-30 kWh cars like we have now will charge too quickly for it to be a good slow charger and too slowly for it to be a quick charger.

The only place where 20kW DC makes sense is where everyone stays for approximately 1 hour. So like a shopping centre. But you'd have to have a bank of them.

beauf

waynegalway wrote: »

Some of that type of behaviour may change when we have to pay at public chargers. The sooner the better IMO.

I wonder could the charger refuse to charge if someone spends a long time per week at the same charger not charging. Perhaps even report that car automatically if it occupies the charger space without charging. Camera etc.

ELM327

waynegalway wrote: »

Some of that type of behaviour may change when we have to pay at public chargers. The sooner the better IMO.

Not at destination/slow chargers it won't.
Fast chargers yes pay for charging will reduce some abuse.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

I would guesstimate that less than 10% of EVs on the road in Ireland, possibly less than 5% even, could take 3 phase AC. 7kW is perfectly adequate.

20kW DC chargers are a bit of a nothing really. In a bigger battery (like 60kWh plus) they can be a slow charger or something like that in a shopping centre. But the smaller battery 20-30 kWh cars like we have now will charge too quickly for it to be a good slow charger and too slowly for it to be a quick charger.

The only place where 20kW DC makes sense is where everyone stays for approximately 1 hour. So like a shopping centre. But you'd have to have a bank of them.

7 Kw is adequate for all that can charge at 7 Kw but it's not really going to cost a lot more to have 11 or 22 Kw AC points for those vehicles that can avail of the higher power.

20 Kw DC will be needed a lot more because there will be many apartment owners who can't charge and those with no home charging so a faster DC charge would be a lot more convenient. If you have enough it won't matter.

20 Kw will be more than adequate over a 1-2 hr shopping spree and can give a good charge into any car then you can have a bank of 100+ kw chargers for the Motorway trips where they'll be needed the most until such time maybe when Garages all have a 100+ Kw charger.

Yes, a bank of 20 Kw chargers is what I'm talking about and 20 Kw will be cheaper than 50+ kw + they will mean less of a power demand where power might not be available for a few 50+ Kw chargers.

I think that by the time most people switch to EV in the next 20-30 years that a 100 Kwh battery might charge up in 10-15 mins and by then 20-40 Kwh batteries will probably be very rare if even any new EV would be sold with one.

DC also means all cars can avail of that power.

I am a big fan of AC though so a balance should be needed, have the AC free and pay for the DC that will coax those who need it the most to pay for it and those that don't to steer towards the free AC points.

If Leaf 60 Kwh does indeed have 22 Kw AC that will be hugely beneficial to those with 60 Kwh batteries.

24 Kwh Leafs for instance can only charge around 35 Kw from 50% anyway and less and less as it reaches 80% and it as well as other electrics charge much slower with cold batteries.

Gumbo

catharsis wrote: »

there are 2 slow (22KW) chargers on the street outside an office for a large irish company, the building they are outside probably holds 500+ people and while there is parking inside it is at a premium, is only available for full time staff and no any of the many contractors and suppliers on site and street parking is EUR1/hour IIRC.

Every time I have passed recently the same 2 leafs have been parked on those spaces. at 8:25 this AM they were there and at 16:00 they were still there.

this is almost ingenious, if not for the fact that I was hoping to use the charger. not only are these BEV drivers saving on fuel they are saving 40/week on parking charges also.... at the cost of making the chargers completely useless to anyone else.

destination chargers yes, but there's a point where it becomes taking the piss?

Outside Dublin I assume?
The trick would be to get there early one day and plug in yourself for the day

Sleeper12

There seems to be very few hotels offering charging stations around the country. I'm still not EV myself but if I was this would play a big part when I choose a hotel.

ELM327

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There seems to be very few hotels offering charging stations around the country. I'm still not EV myself but if I was this would play a big part when I choose a hotel.

There are many hotels with EV chargepoints available.
I now only stay - where feasible - at hotels that offer EV charging.
Examples include Westport Plaza, Louis Fitzgerald, Red Cow etc

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

7 Kw is adequate for all that can charge at 7 Kw but it's not really going to cost a lot more to have 11 or 22 Kw AC points for those vehicles that can avail of the higher power.

20 Kw DC will be needed a lot more because there will be many apartment owners who can't charge and those with no home charging so a faster DC charge would be a lot more convenient. If you have enough it won't matter.

20 Kw will be more than adequate over a 1-2 hr shopping spree and can give a good charge into any car then you can have a bank of 100+ kw chargers for the Motorway trips where they'll be needed the most until such time maybe when Garages all have a 100+ Kw charger.

Yes, a bank of 20 Kw chargers is what I'm talking about and 20 Kw will be cheaper than 50+ kw + they will mean less of a power demand where power might not be available for a few 50+ Kw chargers.

I think that by the time most people switch to EV in the next 20-30 years that a 100 Kwh battery might charge up in 10-15 mins and by then 20-40 Kwh batteries will probably be very rare if even any new EV would be sold with one.

DC also means all cars can avail of that power.

I am a big fan of AC though so a balance should be needed, have the AC free and pay for the DC that will coax those who need it the most to pay for it and those that don't to steer towards the free AC points.

If Leaf 60 Kwh does indeed have 22 Kw AC that will be hugely beneficial to those with 60 Kwh batteries.

24 Kwh Leafs for instance can only charge around 35 Kw from 50% anyway and less and less as it reaches 80% and it as well as other electrics charge much slower with cold batteries.

There's merit for 20kW DC a lot more than 3 phase AC.
But as you say, there's very little difference in cost between 32a single phase and 32a three phase in industrial areas. I know because I was involved in getting 2 32a three phase CP installed at work and there was negligible difference in cost. Of course as we have a data centre on site too there is already 3 phase at the site.

AC is not a scalable tech, long term. I think that I have explained my position on this a few times here now but I don't think AC charging will be on cars in the future. Standard/destination charging will be done at 10-20kW DC and "en route" will be 350kW+. Which will be a lot more attainable at 800v DC compared to 350-410v DC nominal voltage batteries that we have now. 800v*125a gives 100kW, so if you had the same amperage as the current Tesla Superchargers (~350a) at 800v you would have nearly 300kW already. It's not that far away.

AC however cannot be expanded above 22kW/43kW easily. It is not scalable. And I suspect that " big government " will want to remove the ability to charge from a non dedicated EV socket in future, to allow easier taxation.

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

but I don't think AC charging will be on cars in the future. Standard/destination charging will be done at 10-20kW DC and "en route" will be 350kW+.

Does this mean home charging will not be possible or will require AC to DC converters?

miamee

OP please don't do what I saw last night - a 181 Leaf was plugged into the fast charger at Blanchardstown shopping centre when I passed by at about 8.15pm and when I went back at 9.30 - it was still there, long since charged :rolleyes: I understand that as a new owner they may not realise how quickly the car will charge on the fast but that is taking the michael and blocking it up for anyone else who might have needed a quick boost to get home.

ELM327

creedp wrote: »

Does this mean home charging will not be possible or will require AC to DC converters?

I would imagine within 10 years the option of charging on AC at home will be removed, for reasons of taxation.

DC charging makes a lot more sense, as the battery stores DC and no onboard charger is needed.
7/10/22kW DC chargers are not expensive and are getting cheaper and cheaper.

ELM327

miamee wrote: »

OP please don't do what I saw last night - a 181 Leaf was plugged into the fast charger at Blanchardstown shopping centre when I passed by at about 8.15pm and when I went back at 9.30 - it was still there, long since charged :rolleyes: I understand that as a new owner they may not realise how quickly the car will charge on the fast but that is taking the michael and blocking it up for anyone else who might have needed a quick boost to get home.

Call the clampers, they are very good there at clamping overstayers.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I would imagine within 10 years the option of charging on AC at home will be removed, for reasons of taxation.

Cant see that happening at all. It doesnt make sense on a number of fronts...

1) Forcing everyone to charge by day on DC is not good for the grid
2) People will just get their hands on AC/DC inverters and charge at home anyway
3) The govt would be slammed for inhibiting the ability to charge at home via Solar PV.
4) It removes one of the main benefits of having an EV which is that its fully fuelled every morning.
5) The only reason to remove AC charging is for tax reasons and I think its largely understood at this point that the tax foregone will be recouped some other way (motor tax, road pricing, tolls etc). Taxing the electricity by simply removing the AC port on EV is a non-runner... people will work around it.... electricity is too easy to work with and generate yourself relative to being able to launder diesel!

fricatus

KCross wrote: »

Taxing the electricity by simply removing the AC port on EV is a non-runner... people will work around it.... electricity is too easy to work with and generate yourself relative to being able to launder diesel!

LOL, I can just see lads running cables across the border, with a load of Leaf owners keeping LO for the cops.

"Aye, plug in here mate, no, never mind the noise, be grand" ZZZZZZT ZZZZT ZZZT!!!

Fear not, AC chargers in cars are not going anywhere lol, that's ridiculous. If the Government want more tax there's a billion new ways they can tax us. Increase Motor tax to 500 Euros, Increase property tax, easy peasy, or income tax, or fire 50 Euro a month onto the USC, they can do whatever they want.

We'll need AC and DC so I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens. I'll be happy when the ESB start installing 100+ Kw chargers but they think the network is already adequate for the amount of electrics on the road lol so I don't think we'll see the ESB do anything this year other than upgrading existing ChaDeMo only chargers. It will probably be 2020 before they install new DC chargers and I hope they're 100+ Kw but that's probably wishful thinking.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Cant see that happening at all. It doesnt make sense on a number of fronts...

1) Forcing everyone to charge by day on DC is not good for the grid
2) People will just get their hands on AC/DC inverters and charge at home anyway
3) The govt would be slammed for inhibiting the ability to charge at home via Solar PV.
4) It removes one of the main benefits of having an EV which is that its fully fuelled every morning.
5) The only reason to remove AC charging is for tax reasons and I think its largely understood at this point that the tax foregone will be recouped some other way (motor tax, road pricing, tolls etc). Taxing the electricity by simply removing the AC port on EV is a non-runner... people will work around it.... electricity is too easy to work with and generate yourself relative to being able to launder diesel!

Those are all good points, but I do contend that if EV were invented now they would not come with AC charging at all, only DC.
DC is scalable, AC is not.

Perhaps we will always have AC charging solely at home. Who knows? But I do not think that AC public charging will exist in the future for sure.

Shefwedfan

miamee wrote: »

OP please don't do what I saw last night - a 181 Leaf was plugged into the fast charger at Blanchardstown shopping centre when I passed by at about 8.15pm and when I went back at 9.30 - it was still there, long since charged :rolleyes: I understand that as a new owner they may not realise how quickly the car will charge on the fast but that is taking the michael and blocking it up for anyone else who might have needed a quick boost to get home.

That is people in the apartments behind the centre, they use the Blanchardstown charger as their own personal charge points...

Believe me if you left your car and they came to find it plugged in the clampers would be rang straight away

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Those are all good points, but I do contend that if EV were invented now they would not come with AC charging at all, only DC.

Why though?
AC is widely accessible throughout the world already.
For slow charging it is perfect.

Are you saying that it should be all just DC because thats what the battery understands or is there more to it?

Ultimately the AC/DC inverter has to exist somewhere as most electricity generation is AC to begin with (Solar PV excepted)

ELM327 wrote: »

DC is scalable, AC is not.

I can never understand that point of view. AC is ubiquitous already. Its about as scalable as you can get.

AC is ideal for home/destination/slow charging and that should be the default way to charge where possible.

DC is better for rapid charging (due to high current and heat issues etc) and is only scalable for that job. Rapid charging on its own is not scalable. We cannot have every EV charging by day only on DC... hence not scalable or practical either from a time perspective.


Its not an AC or DC argument. Both are required and they have their advantages and disadvantages and you use the right one for the right use case.

ELM327 wrote: »

Perhaps we will always have AC charging solely at home. Who knows? But I do not think that AC public charging will exist in the future for sure.

Well, if the car has an AC port then why wouldnt AC public charging have a future? It will be all about economics... is it cheaper to provide 10 simple AC sockets giving <7kW each or 10 DC chargers which will be much more expensive as you have to pay royalties to Chademo et al and provide the inverter in the charger so it becomes bigger and heavier and more expensive.

AC charge points are simple, cheap, small, light and compatible across all cars.

The more aggressive countries (Norway and Netherlands) have huge numbers of public AC (30k+ vs our 900!) and are expanding those networks as well as expanding DC. If AC is disappearing in the next 20yrs someone would need to go have a chat with them!

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Standard/destination charging will be done at 10-20kW DC and "en route" will be 350kW+. Which will be a lot more attainable at 800v DC compared to 350-410v DC nominal voltage batteries that we have now. 800v*125a gives 100kW, so if you had the same amperage as the current Tesla Superchargers (~350a) at 800v you would have nearly 300kW already. It's not that far away.

From the Tesla earnings report yesterday it seems that 350kW is a long way away...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/03/tesla-supercharger-v3-charge-rate-porsche-faster-charging/


Some snippets...

Musk added:

The thing about a 350 kW charger is it doesn’t actually make a ton a sense – unless you’ve got a monster battery pack or have like a crazy high C-rate, in which case your energy density is going to be poor.

While Tesla doesn’t see a path to a 350 kW charge rate right now for passenger vehicles, Musk said that they are “definitely going to be improving the Supercharger technology” and he sees a path to 200 or 250 kW.

I dont think we will be seeing affordable EV's going much beyond 100kW before 2025 with a few maybe getting to 150kW..... anything beyond 150kW will be for premium cars and super cars that have 150kWh+ battery packs (Mission E, Roadster etc).

The 350kW Ionity chargers arent really 350kW at all. They plan to upgrade them but initial rollouts will be 175kW, I believe.

The only manufacturer with immediate 800V charging plans are Porsche and they will be the only ones capable of 350kW as 350kW on a 400V pack would just produce too much heat.

liamog

Charging a P100D at 200kW is the equivalent of charging a Leaf 24kWh at 48kW.

I'd take Tesla's assessment with a grain of salt.