8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

nozzferrahhtoo

Just her wrote: »

I don't think anyone is trying to be misleading.

Well no you wouldn't would you. But when I see something misleading happening, and I see most members of a distinct group engage in it, I have to assume intent.

But intent to mislead is only a part of my post I am sure you could note, but the fact that it IS misleading is the focus of what I wrote. Which exist regardless of whether the intent to mislead exists or not.

Just her wrote: »

That the foetus and baby are the same. What is the argument, that a baby isn't a baby until it takes its first breath? Every single part of it is identical before and after birth but they just haven't been given the chance to take a breath so they aren't human, aren't a baby?

I have no idea, you would have to ask someone who has made that argument. It is funny you have ignored and not replied to so many of my posts. And now that you finally have chosen to reply to one, it is to ask me to discuss an argument I do not, and have never, made. Why is that?

The distinction I personally DO make however happens both long before birth and long after most abortions actually happen. And that distinction is one that rubbishes the concept the fetus and the baby are "the same".

Just her wrote: »

Well I would argue a foetus is a the same baby at an earlier stage of development.

Would you? That would be nice! Thus far I have certainly seen you ASSERT that position. Numerous times. I have yet to see you actually ARGUE that position however, even once.

So lets move from "would" argue to "have" argue it shall we? It would be most helpful and informative I suspect.

Just her wrote: »

People have attached dehumanising meanings to foetus in an attempt to make it seem ok to end their lives, perhaps to themselves as much as to anyone else.

Your narrative is EXACTLY backwards here. People have not attached dehumanizing meanings to fetus to make it seem ok...... rather you and people like you are attaching HUMANIZING meanings to it that are not warranted in an effort to make it seem NOT ok.

Just her wrote: »

Well the foetus has all the same parts as the baby?

So does a corpse. So clearly "parts" are not the actual criteria we should be working with here.

Just her wrote: »

What makes you worthy of deciding upon someone else's right to life?

Whats makes us NOT worthy to do that? If humans do not come together and decide this, who the hell else will? I would ask what makes us worthy NOT to have that discussion and decision and I would ask what makes us not worthy to have it.

As a species as a whole I do not think we have the right NOT to make that decision to be honest. If morality means anything, or is to mean anything, we are compelled by it to do so.

nozzferrahhtoo

pearcider wrote: »

People are coming up with all sorts of arguments but at the end it's all disengenuous. At the end of the day, the abortion rate in progressive countries like Sweden is 1 in 3 babies are killed. In Ireland it's 1 in 19. So by voting yes, you will be voting to murder thousands more Irish citizens per year. Grotesque.

Except most of us know the actual meanings of the words "murder" and "citizen" and we know that neither of them actually apply.

ohnonotgmail

pearcider wrote: »

People are coming up with all sorts of arguments but at the end it's all disengenuous. At the end of the day, the abortion rate in progressive countries like Sweden is 1 in 3 babies are killed. In Ireland it's 1 in 19.

where are you getting your figure of 1 in 19 from?

pearcider wrote: »

So by voting yes, you will be voting to murder thousands more Irish citizens per year. Grotesque.

a foetus is not a citizen

ELM327

pearcider wrote: »

People are coming up with all sorts of arguments but at the end it's all disengenuous. At the end of the day, the abortion rate in progressive countries like Sweden is 1 in 3 babies are killed. In Ireland it's 1 in 19. So by voting yes, you will be voting to murder thousands more Irish citizens per year. Grotesque.

In Ireland it's not 1 in 19.
There were 37 abortions carried out in Ireland since the PLDP bill in 2016.
Irish abortions are exported to the UK, so the ~4,000 per year count in the UK and not Ireland.

Do you genuinely think that one woman is going to be like "oh... abortions are here now... must have me one of those"

The stupidity makes the mind boggle.

Just her

....... wrote: »

No thats not the argument at all.

The argument is that a 12 week old fetus should not have a right to life over the right to bodily autonomy of the woman carrying it.

Its nothing to do with taking breaths - which you know of course.

People on this thread keep saying to me ' you
know this of course' ' you know that of course' I don't agree with you on points. It's not that I agree with you and pretend not to. I disagree with you. That's allowed. There are people, I do not know if you are one of them, who agree with abortion right up until birth. Right up until they take their first breath. The government has put forward a proposal to allow up until 12 weeks. That's not set in stone. If the amendment is repealed we have no further say. Governments change their minds on things. Ever listen to a governments promises before an election, and see how many they keep after they actually get into power?

pearcider

https://youtu.be/gON-8PP6zgQ

You wouldn't treat a dog like that.

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's just not worth posting anymore, it's just back slapping from the yes side. As splinter said, leave them to it.
People with a different opinion just get treated differently and banned as highlighted many, many times.
It will be decided by people on their own casting the vote.
Treat all children equally.
#savethe8th

I am completely open to anyone who can give me a good reason to retain the 8th amendment.
whether pro life or pro choice, I have not seen one valid reason to retain it.

ELM327

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

where are you getting your figure of 1 in 19 from?

The same place they got the 1 in 5 from, and the abortion up to 6 months from.
I don't know where it is but John Mcguirk lives there.

SusieBlue

pearcider wrote: »

People are coming up with all sorts of arguments but at the end it's all disengenuous. At the end of the day, the abortion rate in progressive countries like Sweden is 1 in 3 babies are killed. In Ireland it's 1 in 19. So by voting yes, you will be voting to murder thousands more Irish citizens per year. Grotesque.

Link?
I've googled but can't find anything to suggest 1 in 3 babies are aborted there.

nozzferrahhtoo

Just her wrote: »

There are people, I do not know if you are one of them, who agree with abortion right up until birth.

Well no not really there isn't. Some people believe in termination of the pregnancy up until birth, but that is not termination of the fetus. In later stages of pregnancy the termination results in a healthy living child.

What you are doing here is MOST dishonest in conflating the termination of pregnancies, and the terminations of the fetus into one word "abortion" and making it sound like people are advocating for things they simply are not.

However I think I only know of three users on boards who advocated for any such thing. And one of them did it so badly that I was convinced he was merely doing a "poe" on the pro choice position.

A belief that I feel somewhat validated by the fact that around the time the referendum was announced his position magically changed over night to a "No abortions at all ever" position at the complete opposite extreme to the one he had been "defending" to that moment.

Michael OBrien

pearcider wrote: »

So by voting yes, you will be voting to murder thousands more Irish citizens per year. Grotesque.

fetuses and embryos and zygotes are not citizens.

Sofiztikated

pearcider wrote: »

What does that even mean? It's just an indication that boards is full of feminists and 20 something social justice warriors.

I'm a 35 year old male. Wouldn't describe myself as a feminist, but I believe in equal rights. There's a self professed right wing, Trump supporter in Elm. Believe it or not, there's a wide variety of people here that I probably wouldn't associate with in the real world.

I like a good chat with people to get to know them. I might not like RobertKK, and as much as I disagree with his view point, I support his right to put it forward.

Contribute to the conversation, instead of just shouting about it.

ELM327

SusieBlue wrote: »

Link?
I've googled but can't find anything to suggest 1 in 3 babies are aborted there.

www.bollixology.com/iona/john_mcguirk_and_Maria/flatearthers

It's FAKE NEWS!

pearcider

pearcider wrote: »

People are coming up with all sorts of arguments but at the end it's all disengenuous. At the end of the day, the abortion rate in progressive countries like Sweden is 1 in 3 babies are killed. In Ireland it's 1 in 19. So by voting yes, you will be voting to murder thousands more Irish citizens per year. Grotesque.

1 in 3 babies are killed in Sweden? really.......
maybe if you gave an actual abortion rate, people might take your posts more seriously.
also, why compare ireland with Sweden? why the comparison? the population is not similar, why not compare with Finland? much more comparable population.

pearcider

SusieBlue wrote: »

Link?
I've googled but can't find anything to suggest 1 in 3 babies are aborted there.

Didn't try very hard. First link I googled. But none so blind as those who will not see.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-sweden.html

pearcider

pearcider wrote: »

https://youtu.be/gON-8PP6zgQ

You wouldn't treat a dog like that.

did the nuns show that to you too?? Thankfully I didn't believe everything they told me.

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This post has been deleted.

darem93

The Irish Times poll does have me a lot more worried. It's going to be a long week leading up to next Friday.

It is going to be extremely close (probably a lot closer than many of us expected) but I really hope Yes can edge the majority.

ohnonotgmail

pearcider wrote: »

Didn't try very hard. First link I googled. But none so blind as those who will not see.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-sweden.html

i think you need to redo your statistics course.

Mr. CooL ICE

pearcider wrote: »

What does that even mean? It's just an indication that boards is full of feminists and 20 something social justice warriors.

pearcider wrote: »

https://youtu.be/gON-8PP6zgQ

You wouldn't treat a dog like that.

pearcider wrote: »

Didn't try very hard. First link I googled. But none so blind as those who will not see.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-sweden.html

Mod: Something tells me that this thread would be better off without you.

Don't post in this thread again.

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This post has been deleted.

Triceratops Ballet

pearcider wrote: »

Didn't try very hard. First link I googled. But none so blind as those who will not see.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-sweden.html

it's 24% not 1 in 3 when you total the number of live births, foetal deaths and abortions to get the approximate number of pregnancies and miscarriages have been excluded from those figures so the actual % is lower than 24%

blanch152

pearcider wrote: »

Didn't try very hard. First link I googled. But none so blind as those who will not see.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-sweden.html

24.89% is the abortion ratio, down from over 25% a few years ago.

That doesn't back up a claim of 1 in 3.

blanch152

pearcider wrote: »

People are coming up with all sorts of arguments but at the end it's all disengenuous. At the end of the day, the abortion rate in progressive countries like Sweden is 1 in 3 babies are killed. In Ireland it's 1 in 19. So by voting yes, you will be voting to murder thousands more Irish citizens per year. Grotesque.

The huge flaw in that argument is that you assume that Ireland is culturally identical to Sweden.

blanch152

darem93 wrote: »

The Irish Times poll does have me a lot more worried. It's going to be a long week leading up to next Friday.

It is going to be extremely close (probably a lot closer than many of us expected) but I really hope Yes can edge the majority.

The poll took place before the NO campaign disgraced themselves on the Claire Byrne show. Most people I have met since were horrified and disgusted by the whooping and hollering of the pro-lifers in the audience at such a serious subject.

While they may believe they won the debate, the antics of their supporters have cost them an awful lot of votes.

tigger123

blanch152 wrote: »

The poll took place before the NO campaign disgraced themselves on the Claire Byrne show. Most people I have met since were horrified and disgusted by the whooping and hollering of the pro-lifers in the audience at such a serious subject.

While they may believe they won the debate, the antics of their supporters have cost them an awful lot of votes.

The Clair Byrne debate turned into a No rally for people alrady voting no. It didn't sway any undecided I don't think.

SusieBlue

Can we have another poll on this thread? I'd be very interested to see results.

RobertKK

darem93 wrote: »

The Irish Times poll does have me a lot more worried. It's going to be a long week leading up to next Friday.

It is going to be extremely close (probably a lot closer than many of us expected) but I really hope Yes can edge the majority.

A week before the Seanad referendum it was
44% get rid of
27% retain
Then undecided, won’t vote etc
It ended up
52% retain
48% get rid of

The article with the poll said there was a sharp drop in support of repeal among 18-24 year olds, while a majority of people over 50 and farmers will vote for retain.
It will be a nail biter. Maybe 1-2% either way.

RobertKK

SusieBlue wrote: »

Can we have another poll on this thread? I'd be very interested to see results.

It will be a similar result as it will be the same people voting.

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

It will be a similar result as it will be the same people voting.

I know you are holding the party line on this, but a few soft no's were royally turned off.

I see undecided up, with no taking a hit.