8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

optogirl

Diogenesthedog wrote: »

If it disabled her then I'd totally agree that would be cause for abortion. However if someone wanted an abortion because it coincided with her skiing holiday then I don't think that's adequate grounds.

oh yeah that one - I'm sick of all my mates booking abortions so they can go on holidays

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Sofiztikated

Diogenesthedog wrote: »

If it disabled her then I'd totally agree that would be cause for abortion. However if someone wanted an abortion because it coincided with her skiing holiday then I don't think that's adequate grounds.

And what if she was going to be disabled, but had a skiing holiday booked?

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Zubeneschamali

What if she had the abortion while skiing?

Sofiztikated

....... wrote: »

What if she had the abortion ON the skiing holiday?

Is a "skiing holiday" the new euphemism for "getting the boat to England"?

dudara

On a more serious note, have you received your polling cards yet? I haven't. I am listed on the register, so not worried, but it's always reassuring to receive them.

Ave Sodalis

dudara wrote: »

On a more serious note, have you received your polling cards yet? I haven't. I am listed on the register, so not worried, but it's always reassuring to receive them.

Nope, not yet!

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Sofiztikated

dudara wrote: »

On a more serious note, have you received your polling cards yet? I haven't. I am listed on the register, so not worried, but it's always reassuring to receive them.

Same.

neonsofa

Diogenesthedog wrote: »

If it disabled her then I'd totally agree that would be cause for abortion. However if someone wanted an abortion because it coincided with her skiing holiday then I don't think that's adequate grounds.

What if the baby itself was to be disabled? What would your stance be on terminating the baby?

January

Yup, mine and my husbands came last week. My mam, dad's, two sisters, brothers and his ex's arrived to their house around the corner from me this morning.

Mr. CooL ICE

Address has been updated on checktheregister.ie. Sweet.

It wasnt me123

Claire Byrne live's programme tonight is on the referendum.

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/claire-byrne-referendum-special-625887

AnneFrank

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Claire Byrne live's programme tonight is on the referendum.

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/claire-byrne-referendum-special-625887

Looks like a good panel too, delighted Maria Steen is on.

It hasn't been very well publicised. I had a few people on the doors saying they wanted to watch the TV debates but there's very little information about them.

Walter Bishop

dudara wrote: »

On a more serious note, have you received your polling cards yet? I haven't. I am listed on the register, so not worried, but it's always reassuring to receive them.

You are not required to have your polling card to vote, in fact they won't accept it as a form of ID at the station, if it doesn't show up just bring photo ID anyway.

Justin Credible Darts

the only good thing about the NO brigade is their utter arrogance and belief that are always right and think they know best for everyone.

Because of this arrogance I know of 3 people who previously were undecided now voting yes due to the no brigades self righteous arrogance and behavior and how they think they have some right to dictate what others should be allowed to do with their own bodies when their health could be on the line.

I hope their arrogance continues to grow until it comes back to bite them

Bannasidhe

dudara wrote: »

On a more serious note, have you received your polling cards yet? I haven't. I am listed on the register, so not worried, but it's always reassuring to receive them.

Mine came last week.
3 Yes votes ready to go.

eviltwin

AnneFrank wrote: »

Looks like a good panel too, delighted Maria Steen is on.

So am I. It will be interesting to see her up against people who know what they are talking about

AnneFrank

eviltwin wrote: »

So am I. It will be interesting to see her up against people who know what they are talking about

haha yes, Mary Lou !!!!:D:D:D:D

NuMarvel

Diogenesthedog wrote: »

Interesting hypothetical question. I guess it would depend what would the current 8th be replacing. Either way I'm not happy with the 8th as it stands.

If you're not happy with the 8th as it stands, then this is your opportunity to remove it. We've established in earlier threads that there isn't a third option when it comes to the 8th; it really is a case of does it stay or does it go.

Hence my hypothetical question; how would you vote if the referendum was to insert the 8th for the first time today. If you're not happy with it as it stands, you presumably wouldn't vote to put it into the constitution in the first place. So, similarly, why would you vote to keep it, especially when no one's been to set out a viable third option.

dark crystal

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Claire Byrne live's programme tonight is on the referendum.

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/claire-byrne-referendum-special-625887

I see my local FF TD, Mary Butler is on. This'll be the first word I've heard out of her mouth since being elected and she's an anti-choicer. Great :rolleyes:

Shame they didn't have John Halligan on instead; he's done great work in Waterford for the Yes side.

Fizzlesque

Diogenesthedog wrote: »

Otherwise just give the kid up for adoption.


Current termination laws need to be more flexible but I am not comfortable with the new amendment being presented to us either.

Wow, the way you chuck that out there like it's a handy little trick for getting stains out of fabric or a good way to use up leftover scraps of food.

Current termination laws do need to be more flexible, however I'm not comfortable with adoption being trotted out like it's a handy little repercussions-free solution to an unplanned pregnancy.

I don't think you realise how big an ask that is.

Sofiztikated

dark crystal wrote: »

I see my local FF TD, Mary Butler is on. This'll be the first word I've heard out of her mouth since being elected and she's an anti-choicer. Great :rolleyes:

Shame they didn't have John Halligan on instead; he's done great work in Waterford for the Yes side.

I genuinely hope there's a woman in the audience that is being directly impacted by the 8th, and see what ****e they come out with.

Edit: that sounds awful. But I stand by it. If there was a woman who was sick enough to really shock them, that's one shock tactic I'd support.

groovyg

dark crystal wrote: »

I see my local FF TD, Mary Butler is on. This'll be the first word I've heard out of her mouth since being elected and she's an anti-choicer. Great :rolleyes:

Shame they didn't have John Halligan on instead; he's done great work in Waterford for the Yes side.

She’s dreadful, she was on prime time last week. Basicallly wants to maintain the status quo, keep exporting the problem and Mary is happy. Utter hypocrite

Ave Sodalis

I know this leave me open to being recognised, but spent the last hour or two coming with a Facebook status. Any feedback on it would be great

The referendum on the 25th of May is a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment, and replace it with the words “Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.”. The 8th amendment gives equal status to the unborn as the mother carrying it, which has caused a great deal of trouble in the last 35 years. The 8th does not just affect abortion laws, but also the healthcare of women in Ireland. In the last few weeks, there has been a lot of lies and misinformation spread. Most people can see through the worst of the lies, but perhaps not all of them. Which is why I am writing this status.

Healthcare: This is a big one. The idea that the 8th has no effect on healthcare is demonstrably untrue. Through reading In Her Shoes, there are examples of women who have been refused xrays, despite being in pain, because their period was not within the required time. Women who have been told they would have to come off their Cystic Fibrosis medication, or their epilepsy medication as the medication may harm a foetus. There are women going through cervical cancer checks after abnormal smears who have to take a pregnancy test before each check. If the pregnancy tests come back positive, any treatment for cervical cancer is stopped, regardless of how critical the treatment is. There are women going through cancer treatment trials that have been warned not to get pregnant. The Protection of Life during Pregnancy Act allows for treatment when the woman is actively dying, not before.

Only those who are not careful get pregnant: Leaving aside rape for a moment, all contraception has a failure rate. Even sterilisation has a failure rate. There is an optimal use failure rate, and a normal use failure rate which is considerably lower. The MAP does not work if you have already ovulated. Sterilisation is almost impossible for a woman to get. You need to be over a certain age, married and with a certain amount of children before the majority of Gps would consider it, in case you “change your mind”, or your husband wants children. In places where abstinence is encouraged has resulted in no change to pregnancy rates (or STI rates for the matter).

Don’t bring abortion to Ireland: Abortion is already in Ireland. Going to the UK, and ordering pills online are two ways abortion is already in Ireland. Exporting the problem isn’t helping it, and punishes only those who cannot afford to travel. Those who likely can’t afford children anyway. Those who can’t afford to travel, or who’s ordered abortion pills get stopped in customs, have been known to resort to more drastic levels to induce an abortion. Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortion. It just makes it dangerous.

Only women who don’t want children have abortions: There are hundreds of reasons why a woman might avail of an abortion. Very often it’s one of the most difficult decisions a woman/couple will have to make. A delayed miscarriage, a diagnosis of FFA, a pregnancy as a result of rape… are all examples of when a woman/couple may very much want children, but cannot go through with that current pregnancy.

This is not a man’s subject: Of course it’s a man’s subject. Men are fathers, they’re brothers, the uncles, they’re sons, they’re friends. The 8th affects men too.

Just give the child up for adoption: There are currently about 6000 children in foster care in Ireland. In 2017, there were 72 adoption orders granted. The Adoption Rights Alliance are fully supporting a Yes vote, and have stated the adoption is not a viable alternative to abortion. Giving a child up for adoption also puts any other children you have at risk. You are saying you are unfit to be a parent.

Don’t trust politicians: Politicians legislate for just about every aspect of our lives as it is. It is currently within the power of legislators to decrease the age of consent to single figures. Abortion is a complex topic and it took a great deal of suffering and death before they even reconsidered the 8th. They are not going to touch this for a long time without prompting.

A 12 week old foetus is fully formed: No, it’s not. It has a sporadic heartbeat, and yes, it can open its mouth (though not yawn as a yawn involves breathing). However, it does not have a formed central nervous system. It is not conscious, it cannot feel pain. It is about two inches long.

There will be abortion until 6 months: After 12 weeks, it is proposed that abortion will be available for cases of FFA or in cases of risk to the mother’s mental health up to 24 weeks. No other reason. As for regarding the mother’s mental health, the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Act already allows for abortion on ground of suicide, with unrestricted time limits. However, given that a woman was sanctioned instead of receiving an abortion, it does not come into play very often. Nobody asks for an abortion at 6 months without a tragic reason.

We are voting to allow abortions!: No, we are voting to repeal the 8th amendment. Regardless of legislation afterwards, even if abortion was still illegal after, the 8th needs to go. A repeal of the 8th does not mean the legislation will automatically pass. It still needs to be voted on in the Dail. If you disagree with the proposed legislation (i.e. 12 weeks), then you can still lobby for change.

We could just put in a clause about FFA and rape into the constitution: As has already been said, there are hundreds of reasons for abortion. If a woman was in an abusive relationship and fell pregnant, it would not be considered rape. If a woman had a condition where the embryo needs to implant in the right place, then a misplacement is not FFA. There are too many reasons for abortion to be put into a constitution, and only “fixed” when something goes wrong. Furthermore, it is impossible to legislate for rape. Majority of rapes go unreported.

A foetus is a baby: Legally, medically, scientifically and just about every definition, a foetus becomes a baby when it is born. It is an embryo until about 8 weeks, and a foetus until birth, whenever that may be.

Abortion in murder: No, it’s not. By no definition is abortion murder. To those of you who believe abortion is murder, do you really think there are that many people who are murderers? People who could be your friend, your family member who supposedly have no issues with killing? If you knew someone was going over to the UK to commit a murder, would you stop them and report them? Then why isn’t there a call to repeal the 13th and 14th amendments?

People will be forced into having an abortion: No, they won’t. It is their choice.

The 8th never killed anyone: An independent report from the HSE, chaired by Sabaratnam Arulkumaran, found that although their recommendations were restricted by the law, there was absolutely no doubt that the 8th was what led to the death of Savita Halappanavar. https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/nimtreport50278.pdf . Michelle Harte may have died of cancer, but it was the 8th that denied her her treatment. The 8th may not have directly killed Anne Lovett or Susan Hodgers, but denying access to abortion did. That’s before we get into Miss P.

What about that abortion nurse on the posters: That wasn’t a nurse. That was a convicted thief and arms dealer. His papers were forged and had typos.
What about those videos saying men don’t have a say, or the pro-choice rallys with those awful signs: They’re pro-life pretending to be pro-choice to invoke a reaction.

The pro-choice side are illegally pulling down signs: Both sides are illegally pulling down signs. Neither side are right to do so.

Pro-choice are disregarding the life of the unborn: No, pro-choice are merely putting the life of the living, breathing, feeling woman over the potential life inside her.

Babies are cut up into little piece and sucked out: No, up to 12 weeks, the majority of abortions will be medical, i.e. it will be taking two pills. After 12 weeks, and before in certain, select circumstances, the procedure will be surgical.

I agree with abortion in certain circumstances but not all: Then vote to repeal the 8th and then lobby.

Bannasidhe

Warning - Obstreperous Pandemic

AnneFrank

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I know this leave me open to being recognised, but spent the last hour or two coming with a Facebook status. Any feedback on it would be great

It's a bit short ?

Ave Sodalis

AnneFrank wrote:

It's a bit short ?

It probably actually is. I've likely forgotten many, many of the lies told so far, but it's hard to keep track.