General Emulation Discussion

Inviere

A uncommon update from the Vita3K team...I'd actually forgotten about this emulator until seeing this. There's a LONG way to go, but progress is being made!

Retr0gamer

Mad to see bald Yuna in FFX

They must have used a shader for her hair.

It's really good progress though.

Inviere

Another interesting leak, this time Rare's Dinosaur Planet - https://www.ign.com/articles/dinosaur-planet-playable-version-of-rares-cancelled-n64-game-leaks-online

o1s1n

Inviere wrote: »

Another interesting leak, this tome Rare's Dinosaur Planet - https://www.ign.com/articles/dinosaur-planet-playable-version-of-rares-cancelled-n64-game-leaks-online

Holy **** :eek:

It's not every day you get a 'new' Rare n64 game!

o1s1n

Any of you guys give Dinosaur Planet a go yet?

I have it running on an emulator but think I might leave it until I get an N64 Everdrive and play it on the real thing.

Retr0gamer

o1s1n wrote: »

Any of you guys give Dinosaur Planet a go yet?

I have it running on an emulator but think I might leave it until I get an N64 Everdrive and play it on the real thing.

I'll watch videos about it but the gamecube game was pretty crappy so don't need the 15 fps version.

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'll watch videos about it but the gamecube game was pretty crappy so don't need the 15 fps version.

Ah, if Starfox Adventure had been released on the N64 I'd know what you mean, but as they're different generations entirely, as well as the assets being different, I definitely think there's merit in checking it out on the n64.

From a few quick glimpses of videos it kind of looks like Rare does OOT.

Retr0gamer

So I'm going to bitch about inaccurate emulation again.

First I've gotten to the end of Mishief Makers and noticed one really annoying issue which will become a running theme of the post. There's a boss near the end that requires you to read the writing in objects in the level but it's insanely hard to read as the texture filtering on N64 emulators is nothing like the filtering on the real hardware. It does a pretty good approximation with three point filtering but instead of emulating how the N64 does it the emulator just uses the direct X/open GL API.

Also do not attempt this game with a tribute 64 pad. I love the bad but the gamecube d-pad is just not accurate enough for this game and will really piss you off.

Also tried PS2 emulation.

What an absolute mess this is. Plugins and plugins, selecting different settings for different games. Specific fixes that need to be enabled for different games, and if the game you want to play is mildly obscure, you will have issues.

Plenty of glitches here and worst of all is again the texture filtering and alignment issues which makes sprites and text look awful in games.

It reminds me of early PS1 emulation but at least Beetle there has a renderer that emulated the Aphine renderer on the PS1. I wish someone would do that for PS2 and N64 because relying on tweaks to existing modern APIs doesn't work.

Inviere

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So I'm going to bitch about inaccurate emulation again.

First I've gotten to the end of Mishief Makers and noticed one really annoying issue which will become a running theme of the post. There's a boss near the end that requires you to read the writing in objects in the level but it's insanely hard to read as the texture filtering on N64 emulators is nothing like the filtering on the real hardware. It does a pretty good approximation with three point filtering but instead of emulating how the N64 does it the emulator just uses the direct X/open GL API.

Also do not attempt this game with a tribute 64 pad. I love the bad but the gamecube d-pad is just not accurate enough for this game and will really piss you off.

Also tried PS2 emulation.

What an absolute mess this is. Plugins and plugins, selecting different settings for different games. Specific fixes that need to be enabled for different games, and if the game you want to play is mildly obscure, you will have issues.

Plenty of glitches here and worst of all is again the texture filtering and alignment issues which makes sprites and text look awful in games.

It reminds me of early PS1 emulation but at least Beetle there has a renderer that emulated the Aphine renderer on the PS1. I wish someone would do that for PS2 and N64 because relying on tweaks to existing modern APIs doesn't work.

I can't find any information that describes the text issue with mischief makers. What emulator are you using, if Retroarch, which core? Also what are the renderer settings you're using?

Re PS2, you make it sound so much worse than I've ever found it to be. I select the recommended plugin for the display settings I want, configure the plugin, and have never touched it since. I've never had issues with sprite or text alignment in games, as for specific game fixes, the frontend I use automatically downloads and applies them so it's a non issue. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it doesn't purport to be either. There are alternatives in development (Play! and DobieStation) but they're comparatively new and have a good way to go.

Whats your computer hardware, specifically gpu? What video backend are you using for N64 and PS2?

Inviere

I meant to say too, you're undoubtedly venturing away from mainstream titles re PS2 here, and as such, running into the issues you mention. Pcsx2 as you know is hle based (as ALL >16bit emulators tend to be given the sheer cpu grunt needed for lle), so where there's less demand, there's less attention on fixes.

That said, the issues you describe sound very much like configuration problems to me. Likely software based, but if your gpu hardware hasn't the grunt for opengl and you're having to use vulkan, there could be issues there too. Without knowing your hardware setup and emulator display settings, it's impossible to say really.

Retr0gamer

The N64 one was admittedly only once on the second last boss of the game. But it kind of demonstrates that the emulation just isn't quite there yet.



Using retroarch parallel.

It's performed pretty well other than this.

It's not my shaders either. It's filtering it so the white bleeds into the black area of the text. It's very easy to read when I watched a speedrun. Kind of annoying when you are looking out for 'Dire' to get the stage secret.

PS2 emulation.... I'm sorry but it really is a mess. It reminds me of EPSXE, early EPSXE. . It took me ages of looking it up but I managed to fix the in menu text but there's still issues:





Dragon Quarter isn't exactly niche either. I had to mess around with a lot of settings and then apply a fix for a separate game, the wild arms series.

My PC is very modern other than the GPU but it's a 1070 so no slouch. Looking for a 3080 but.... not going so well.

Inviere

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The N64 one was admittedly only once on the second last boss of the game. But it kind of demonstrates that the emulation just isn't quite there yet.

Using retroarch parallel.

It's performed pretty well other than this.

It's not my shaders either. It's filtering it so the white bleeds into the black area of the text. It's very easy to read when I watched a speedrun. Kind of annoying when you are looking out for 'Dire' to get the stage secret.

There's few things you need to mention here with regard Parallel. With the game running, F1 into the the RA menu, then go to the Options section for the running core:

What is GFX Accuracy set as?
What GFX Plugin are you running?
What RSP Plugin are you running?
What resolution are you running?

PS2 emulation.... I'm sorry but it really is a mess. It reminds me of EPSXE, early EPSXE. . It took me ages of looking it up but I managed to fix the in menu text but there's still issues:

Dragon Quarter isn't exactly niche either. I had to mess around with a lot of settings and then apply a fix for a separate game, the wild arms series.

PS2 emulation isn't exactly a one size fits all solution, as you know. Very few people expect PCSX2 to work the way say Bsnes, or other highly accurate emulators work. Because of the nature of the PS2 hardware itself (it's mostly all custom hardware, and as a result, there's a serious lack of documentation out there for it), combined with the plugin system that you mention, has definitely led to a fractured system. However,

TLDR:

What to expect for PCSX2 1.8:

• No Plugins
• 64-bit support (mostly done)
• Reduced Input lag
• A new shiny IPC protocol

...and much more (read our progress reports)

What might be ready for 2.0:

• A New QT based GUI along with support for pluggable & community GUIs
• Rework of our Infrastructure/Website
• Work on a pluggable JIT backend
• A full cleanup of the codebase

And hopefully other nice surprises

In terms of the game itself, looking on the PCSX2 Compatability Wiki, there's an entry that says: "Working great, a bit CPU hog, Text artifacts from upscaling, use wild arms offset hack state 2"

^^ are you upscaling the game to higher than stock resolutions perhaps? Regardless, once you apply the wild arms fix, the issue resolves itself. I agree that such measures are not ideal, but we're just going to have to be more patient when it comes to the PS2. It works amazingly well imo, but to reiterate, isn't a one size fits all emulator yet.

My PC is very modern other than the GPU but it's a 1070 so no slouch. Looking for a 3080 but.... not going so well.

A 1070 is more than good enough, same gpu as my own (also watching out for a bargain msrp 3080 :rolleyes:).

In PCSX2, go to config, video, and plugin settings. What renderer are you using? What texture filtering setting? Then in emulation settings, what is the global speedhack slider set as?

Inviere

Some experimental widescreen work happening for the RetroArch Megadrive core "Genesis Plus GX". Similar to the Snes offerings, it's very much not a universal solution, but very interesting all the same. There's still visible issues here and there, but if they can be ironed out:

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/genesis-plus-gx-wide-now-available-for-libretroretroarch/

Inviere

Introducing the RetroArch Open Hardware Project:

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/introducing-the-retroarch-open-hardware-project/

RetroArch Open Hardware is our attempt to shake up this sector of the retro games market, and our effort to revitalize the DIY market and shift it away from proprietary solutions. Our first Proof of Concept hardware device is an N64 cartridge adapter that you connect to any device with a USB Type-C cable. It will be relatively cheap to assemble and much faster than any existing competing device out there that does the same task.

We have some high-level goals we aim to achieve with this project. We want seamless integration with RetroArch. When you attach this to RetroArch, it should be hopefully as simple to play the game as it is on a real game console when you plugged in the cartridge. That’s the level of integration we are aiming to achieve with this project, and none of the existing solutions out there really fit the bill.

o1s1n

I've had a Retrode for years and the only thing they're really useful for is dumping proto snes and Megadrive carts. Never once in all the time I've had it have I decided to fire up a game cart on an emulator when I can just play a game from my rom library.

This'll be handy for dumping N64 protos (which are few and far between compared to the Snes/MD) but can't think of any other uses for it, especially for the masses. Maybe if they have some mechanism to back up your save files too, but that's nothing revolutionary either really.

I find the notion that anyone 'dumps their own legitimately bought cartridges' to play in an emulator to be fairly absurd.

Inviere

Very much agree, I can't see the appeal. If you have an extensive library of physical game carts, are you really saying you won't have the consoles to play them on? I think people using real carts to play through emulators are kind of kidding themselves....why on earth would you be getting up to unplug and plug in different carts, when you could be playing 1:1 cart dumps instead?

I see the appeal for archival and preservation in terms of the dumping projects out there, but for everyday use? Nah.

Retr0gamer

I'll have to get back to you later about emulation. Haven't touched the auld PC since Mischief Makers pissed me off last night.

Doge

Inviere wrote: »

Some experimental widescreen work happening for the RetroArch Megadrive core "Genesis Plus GX". Similar to the Snes offerings, it's very much not a universal solution, but very interesting all the same. There's still visible issues here and there, but if they can be ironed out:

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/genesis-plus-gx-wide-now-available-for-libretroretroarch/

This will be the cause of fights at the retro beers!
"Will you ever f*****g switch that damn 16:9 aspect ratio to 4:3 you noob!"
"But the game is in 16:9 tho!"

Doge

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'll have to get back to you later about emulation. Haven't touched the auld PC since Mischief Makers pissed me off last night.

Retr0gamer

Doge wrote: »

Nothing to do with emulation errors.

I was four hours at a level trying to A Rank it. Just seemed impossible to get my time under a minute which I presumed was the A rank limit.

So kept optimising advanced movement and shaving milliseconds off my time and got to under 1 minute.

That wasn't the A rank limit.

So I looked online and found a video and the developer intended A rank strategy is to jump over the entire start of the stage and flying over it off screen.

That's too much bull**** for me on a saturday night.

Inviere wrote: »

There's few things you need to mention here with regard Parallel. With the game running, F1 into the the RA menu, then go to the Options section for the running core

What is GFX Accuracy set as
What GFX Plugin are you running
What RSP Plugin are you running
What resolution are you running

GFX set to veryhigh
GFX plugin Auto
RSP plugin Auto
Resolution native (320x240)

What would you recommend for the plugins?

Inviere wrote: »

In terms of the game itself, looking on the PCSX2 Compatability Wiki, there's an entry that says Working great, a bit CPU hog, Text artifacts from upscaling, use wild arms offset hack state 2

^^ are you upscaling the game to higher than stock resolutions perhaps Regardless, once you apply the wild arms fix, the issue resolves itself. I agree that such measures are not ideal, but we're just going to have to be more patient when it comes to the PS2. It works amazingly well imo, but to reiterate, isn't a one size fits all emulator yet.

I'm upscaling to 1440p. Native resolution does disguise these issues but.... call me a hypocrite but I'm not pushed about native resolution for Dreamcast and upwards so want it to look good and 640x480 does not look good. However the sprite corruption on the title screen is still there.

Also I applied the wild arms fix with fixes menu graphics a bit but it looked weird. I actually ended up turning it off and fixing it myself with some tweaking to get that perfect. The sprite corruption on the title screen again is still bad and I'm afraid this is going to appear again during the game. Wild Arms fix doesn't fix the sprite corruption on the title screen.

There's some polygon issues as well in game but I can live with them.

Inviere wrote: »

In PCSX2, go to config, video, and plugin settings. What renderer are you using What texture filtering setting Then in emulation settings, what is the global speedhack slider set as

Speedhack is set to 2 (Safe)

Doge

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Nothing to do with emulation errors.

I was four hours at a level trying to A Rank it. Just seemed impossible to get my time under a minute which I presumed was the A rank limit.

So kept optimising advanced movement and shaving milliseconds off my time and got to under 1 minute.

That wasn't the A rank limit.

So I looked online and found a video and the developer intended A rank strategy is to jump over the entire start of the stage and flying over it off screen.

That's too much bull**** for me on a saturday night.

It was more of a general response to all your posts in this thread than that specific one!

I personally think you over analyze the negatives in games instead of just trying to enjoy the positives!

I think it's a blessing in disguise that I don't have as high a technical understanding in how games are developed, it leaves me more free to enjoy them as a casual gamer.

Inviere

Retr0, I'm on the touch site here so so can't properly advise yet. Have a look here though, and read through it - https://www.libretro.com/index.php/category/parallel-n64/

There's recommended settings in the link for proper low level emulation of the n64's output. Coupled with that, they've been able to implement up scaling too. It's explained very well in the link.

You'll need to change your plugins from auto, to what's described above.

Re PS2, your settings look good, I'll compare them with my own later, but I suspect this is just down to a combination of upscaling games to resolutions never intended for them, and the PS2 just being harder to emulate from a developer pov. I completely agree with you when you say you don't care much for stock resolutions of these systems, certainly not on modern displays anyway, but upscaling has the odd chance of introducing some minor visual issues at times.

Retr0gamer

Doge wrote: »

It was more of a general response to all your posts in this thread than that specific one!

I personally think you over analyze the negatives in games instead of just trying to enjoy the positives!

I think it's a blessing in disguise that I don't have as high a technical understanding in how games are developed, it leaves me more free to enjoy them as a casual gamer.

I'm not totally negative. PS1 emulation with Beetle I find now is finally at a good state and other than this one blip with mischief makers which is more an observation than anything it's come a long way and I'm happy where it's at right now.

Inviere

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm not totally negative. PS1 emulation with Beetle I find now is finally at a good state and other than this one blip with mischief makers which is more an observation than anything it's come a long way and I'm happy where it's at right now.

I think that mischief makers blip is fixable through settings, give the settings in the link a go and see how you get on.

There's a lot of people talking about duckstation these days, in terms of it overtaking beetle for accuracy in several areas. I don't think it's a clear winner just yet, but it seems to be heading there slowly.

Retr0gamer

Yeah I'll give those N64 settings a go when I get a chance.

I think emulators need to move away from plugins. Every plug in based emulator is a mess and it's good to see PS2 emulation moving away from it. With how good shader tech is it should go a long way to getting accurate but also unified solutions to rendering. I can see why its done, you are basically crowdsourcing your emulation and gets things moving a lot quicker but in the end everything moves away from it.

Inviere

Let me know how you get on, be interested to hear if the low level emulation of the rdp fixes the issue

Retr0gamer

Inviere wrote: »

Let me know how you get on, be interested to hear if the low level emulation of the rdp fixes the issue

I'll try it tonight but let me iterate again that this is speedy gonzalez in snes9x levels of nitpicking :pac:

Retr0gamer

Inviere wrote: »

Let me know how you get on, be interested to hear if the low level emulation of the rdp fixes the issue

So I tried those fixes.

I'm a little annoyed right now.

I changed the GFX renderer to angrylion which uses shaders to render as accurately as possible.

I changed RSP emulation to parallel.

Well I got a black screen.

Apparently it's an angrylion bug right now. So I changed the resolution to 640x480 and it rendered it in 320x240??? I don't know but it works.

And I tried that level that gave me issues.

Not only are there no texture issues now it got a tonne of graphical effects including a gorgeous motion blur effect that was missing when I played it. Bit miffed I beat the whole game with poor emulation.

At least I know the settings to use for other N64 games. Thanks!

Really impressed with how it renders those effects, they would be very uncommon in a N64 game or not emulated well.

Inviere

Angrylion is something I've been telling you about for a while, it's LLE of the RDP....its the most authentic emulation of the n64s display out there. However, because its LLE, it doesn't support resolutions higher than stock, which is why its rendering so low for you.

The link I posted advises that if you're looking to upscale, you should od set both the GFX Plugin AND the RSP Plugin to "Parallel". It's still LLE, but some math and coding voodoo allow it to upscale. The results speak for themselves.

Give that a go and see if the graphics hitch you posted about is still there...

Retr0gamer

I actually like the N64 in stock native resolution so I'm happy out with it.

I'll try upscaling to see what it's like. I'll have to adjust my shaders though as resolution messes with my lovely shaders