Famine in road construction around 2019/2020?

JupiterKid

After the M11 Enniscorthy Bypass and N25 New Ross bypass completions in 2019, and apart from a few upgrades works on the M7, given that there are many road schemes in the pipeline but so many at design/pre-planning stage and not due to commence until the early 2020s...

...is it likely, apart from a few minor improvement projects, that there will be a couple of years where NO significant road schemes will actually be under construction?

Seems disappointing to me if thats the case.

Limerick74

Hopefully the following will keep it going:
M7 Naas
Dunkettle
N22
N15
N5
M28
N6 Galway
M21

cgcsb

Ireland is saturated in motorways as is. We'll be leaving quite the maintenance bill for future generations.

D Trent

Projects to kick off this yr or next yr afaik;

N52 Ardee bypass
N59 Moycullen bypass
N69 Listowel bypass
N4 Castlebaldwin-Collooney DC
Second phase Realignments on N55 co Cavan and N86 co Kerry

marno21

I'm delighted that this penny is finally starting to drop around the place because this is an issue that's been waiting to rear its head for quite some time. There is a massive scarcity of projects to consume the large ramp up in funding for national road capital projects in the coming few years.

We have, at this time, the following projects with planning permission (not under construction):

N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin (2018 start)
N5 Westport-Castlebar (2021 start)
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange (2019 start)
N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney (2020 start)
N59 Moycullen bypass (2021 start)
N69 Listowel bypass (tbc start)

There are projects on the N56, N59 and N86 which are being implemented in phases, it wouldn't be feasible to upgrade 20km of the N86 at once given the considerable traffic management involved. I didn't bother including the Ardee bypass as it's tiny and basically a realignment given its cost (€15m or so).

Beyond that, there are two projects with An Bord Pleanala (N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge and M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy), and two projects with ABP submission imminent (M21 Adare-Rathkeale-Foynes and N6 Galway City bypass). The N6 scheme will likely take over a year to go through planning due to the amount of objections it will attract. The N5 and M28 schemes cannot start until 2020/2021.

Beyond that, there are a number of projects in early planning:

M20 Cork-Limerick + N72 Mallow Relief Road (these are at the same stage and will likely be twinned)
N2 Slane bypass
Donegal TEN-T improvements (Ballybofey bypass, Letterkenny-Lifford, N13 dc upgrade)

Beyond this, we have nothing. We badly need to advance projects into planning because they take so long (upto 8 years) to get shovel ready. Beyond 2022/3 we will have a serious lack of projects to progress and plenty of funding with nowhere to allocate it.

The suspension of 70/80 projects in 2011 and the unsuspending of these only now is having a major effect.

roadmaster

I raised this issue around a few months ago and several posters did not believe me that this was a concern for the contractors. In my job i deal with the smaller/ medium companys who do road construction primarly. They are now activilty pricing civil works with developers in the GDA as they dont see a lot coming up on e tenders

road_high

cgcsb wrote: »

Ireland is saturated in motorways as is. We'll be leaving quite the maintenance bill for future generations.

Please elaborate?

JupiterKid

cgcsb wrote: »

Ireland is saturated in motorways as is. We'll be leaving quite the maintenance bill for future generations.

These were badly needed, were built 30 to 40 years after most developed countries built their motorway networks and IMO have been largely responsible for the massive reduction in road deaths, many of which were head on collisions on the old S2 Inter-urban N routes. It is debatable if the full M9 was required, but for the others most certainly so. Also important for regional development despite what some commentators may opine.

There is still a lot more to be done. The M20, and upgrading the N4 and cross country N52 and N80 routes for starters. The thing that stands out about the inter urban motorways was that they were built so quickly during the 2000s compared to the UK network which was developed over a 20+ year timeframe. They are probably the most important legacy of the “Celtic Tiger” period.

Until the late 1990s our roads were an utter disgrace.

marno21

JupiterKid wrote: »

These were badly needed, were built 30 to 40 years after most developed countries built their motorway networks and IMO have been largely responsible for the massive reduction in road deaths, many of which were head on collisions on the old S2 Inter-urban N routes. It is debatable if the full M9 was required, but for the others most certainly so. Also important for regional development despite what some commentators may opine.

There is still a lot more to be done. The M20, and upgrading the N4 and cross country N52 and N80 routes for starters. The thing that stands out about the inter urban motorways was that they were built so quickly during the 2000s compared to the UK network which was developed over a 20+ year timeframe. They are probably the most important legacy of the “Celtic Tiger” period.

Until the late 1990s our roads were an utter disgrace.

The least viable part of the M9 was an embarrassement of a road and had to be upgraded anyway, so building it as motorway (in reality grade seperated dual carriageway) was the right choice rather than the 2020s "M9 Kilkenny-Waterford dualling scheme".

There is at least 400km of DC yet to be done in Ireland, some of which is motorway (motorway denoted with Mxx, 2+2 unless stated for N road)

N2 Slane BP + Ardee-NI border
N3 Kells-Cavan
M4 Mullingar-Longford
N4 Longford-Roosky + Dromod-Carrick on Shannon + Collooney-Castlebaldwin
N5 Westport-Turlough
M6 Galway Ring Road
N11 Enniscorthy South-Wexford
N13 Letterkenny-NI Border
N14 Letterkenny-Lifford
M15 Sligo-Grange
N15 Grange-Ballyshannon + Ballybofey-Lifford
N17 Tuam-Claremorris + Knock-Tubbercurry-Collooney
M20 Patrickswell-Blarney
M21 Adare-Rathkeale
N21 Rathkeale-Abbeyfeale
M22 Ovens-Macroom
N22 Farranfore-Killarney + Ballyvourney-Macroom
M24 Ballysimon-Dromkeen or so
N24 Dromkeen-Pallasgreen + Pallasgreen-Cahir + Cahir-Rathkeevin + Rathkeevin-Kilsheelan + Kilsheelan-Piltown + Piltown-Grannagh
M25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton + Midleton-Youghal + New Ross-Glenmore
N25 Dungarvan Outer Route + Wexford-Rosslare
N27 Airport Road
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
N33 Ardee-M1
M40 Cork North Ring West
M40 Cork North Ring East
N59 Galway-Moycullen
N69 M21-Foynes
M71 Cork-Inishannon
N71 Inishannon-Clonakilty
N81 Tallaght-Hollywood Cross

This is a rough guide, with Type 1 DC upgrades noted as motorway. All of the above is justified on traffic volumes and if all was built would reduce road deaths by 20% in my opinion, in addition to retrofitting the sections of already high standard road in between the above upgrades to 2+2 to avoid lethal right turn junctions and overtaking accidents (Claremorris-Knock, Castlebaldwin-Carrick etc)

Irish_rat

cgcsb wrote: »

Ireland is saturated in motorways as is. We'll be leaving quite the maintenance bill for future generations.

I agree and disagree. You're right it will cost a bomb to maintain the current network but most of them were justified.

JackieChan

marno21 wrote: »

The least viable part of the M9 was an embarrassement of a road and had to be upgraded anyway, so building it as motorway (in reality grade seperated dual carriageway) was the right choice rather than the 2020s "M9 Kilkenny-Waterford dualling scheme".

There is at least 400km of DC yet to be done in Ireland, some of which is motorway (motorway denoted with Mxx, 2+2 unless stated for N road)

N2 Slane BP + Ardee-NI border
N3 Kells-Cavan
M4 Mullingar-Longford
N4 Longford-Roosky + Dromod-Carrick on Shannon + Collooney-Castlebaldwin
N5 Westport-Turlough
M6 Galway Ring Road
N11 Enniscorthy South-Wexford
N13 Letterkenny-NI Border
N14 Letterkenny-Lifford
M15 Sligo-Grange
N15 Grange-Ballyshannon + Ballybofey-Lifford
N17 Tuam-Claremorris + Knock-Tubbercurry-Collooney
M20 Patrickswell-Blarney
M21 Adare-Rathkeale
N21 Rathkeale-Abbeyfeale
M22 Ovens-Macroom
N22 Farranfore-Killarney + Ballyvourney-Macroom
M24 Ballysimon-Dromkeen or so
N24 Dromkeen-Pallasgreen + Pallasgreen-Cahir + Cahir-Rathkeevin + Rathkeevin-Kilsheelan + Kilsheelan-Piltown + Piltown-Grannagh
M25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton + Midleton-Youghal + New Ross-Glenmore
N25 Dungarvan Outer Route + Wexford-Rosslare
N27 Airport Road
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
N33 Ardee-M1
M40 Cork North Ring West
M40 Cork North Ring East
N59 Galway-Moycullen
N69 M21-Foynes
M71 Cork-Inishannon
N71 Inishannon-Clonakilty
N81 Tallaght-Hollywood Cross

This is a rough guide, with Type 1 DC upgrades noted as motorway. All of the above is justified on traffic volumes and if all was built would reduce road deaths by 20% in my opinion, in addition to retrofitting the sections of already high standard road in between the above upgrades to 2+2 to avoid lethal right turn junctions and overtaking accidents (Claremorris-Knock, Castlebaldwin-Carrick etc)

I'd add some stretches of the N80 that could do with an upgrade also(eg Tullamore -> Mountmellick -> Portlaoise ). 9k+ AADT on the N80 south of Tullamore with no hard shoulders along a lot of that stretch.

bennyineire

JackieChan wrote: »

I'd add some stretches of the N80 that could do with an upgrade also(eg Tullamore -> Mountmellick -> Portlaoise ). 9k+ AADT on the N80 south of Tullamore with no hard shoulders along a lot of that stretch.

Yep agree strongly on this and find it puzzling that it is not brought up more often. This is a busy road and on the national route. Very poor road considering the traffic volumes. Also there are many accidents on that road and I would guess and average of 1 fatality per year or at least every other year.

Plus if there is a big match on in Tullamore or Portlaoise and also other events such as the Tullamore show,electric picnic, ploughing championship etc. Montmellick has serious traffic issues. That town is a serious bottle neck that has a T junction in the middle of town that has to be negotiated if you want the travel between Tullamore and Portlaoise

medoc

JackieChan wrote: »

I'd add some stretches of the N80 that could do with an upgrade also(eg Tullamore -> Mountmellick -> Portlaoise ). 9k+ AADT on the N80 south of Tullamore with no hard shoulders along a lot of that stretch.

I’d add the N52 from the end of the Tullamore bypass to the M6 Junction. Busy section of road with lots of houses and lacking hard shoulders passing Durrow.

Kermit.de.frog

marno21 wrote: »

M4 Mullingar-Longford
M6 Galway Ring Road
M15 Sligo-Grange
M20 Patrickswell-Blarney
M21 Adare-Rathkeale
M22 Ovens-Macroom
M24 Ballysimon-Dromkeen or so
M25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton + Midleton-Youghal + New Ross-Glenmore
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
M40 Cork North Ring West
M40 Cork North Ring East
M71 Cork-Inishannon

How do you know that every single one of those schemes will be an actual motorway - as in with full motorway regs and blue signs?

They might just be built as Dual Carriageways.

marno21

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How do you know that every single one of those schemes will be an actual motorway - as in with full motorway regs and blue signs?

They might just be built as Dual Carriageways.

I noted in the post for differentiation, that any scheme I denoted as motorway was a scheme I believed would be built as Type 1, and any as Nxx was 2+2

All of the above schemes have traffic volumes that justify Type 1 DC. It would be fantastic if they were designated motorway given they will be up to the standard, and then wouldn't be carrying traffic inappropriate for mainline speed (cyclists, pedestrians, horse and carts, tractors)

Kermit.de.frog

Is there a policy in this country to automatically make type 1 Dual Carriageways motorways now?


Anyone know?

marno21

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is there a policy in this country to automatically make type 1 Dual Carriageways motorways now?


Anyone know?

I don't know of any but I can answer indirectly.

There are three active projects in Ireland at present that have reached the stage where road type is decided on and will be Type 1 DC:

M21 Adare-Rathkeale
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
N6 Galway City Ring Road

First 2 will be motorway. The third one is unclear yet as the final design has not been revealed but it will be Type 1, the planning so far has mentioned a "motorway order" so it may be motorway.

Several Type 1 projects will be advanced over the next few years, specifically Cork-Limerick, Mullingar-Longford

marno21

The chickens are now really starting to come home to roost.

The only major (>€50m) project with planning in the country that's not at tender is the M28. Which has attracted a crusade of self entitled NIMBYs trying to stop it, which may drag it out.

There are 2 projects close to being submitted for planning, the M21 and the N6 Galway bypass, which is stuck in red tape and is another massive fruitcake magnet and will get stuck in delays.

As it stands, when the N4, N5, N22, Dunkettle projects are winding down in 2022, the only major projects ready to go will be the M21 and the M28, perhaps the Galway bypass.

There really needs to be significant funding allocated in the 2019 capital budget to get some schemes fully funded and accelerated through planning and design. Otherwise there will be nothing there to spend money on in 2022.

Shane Ross was repeatedly told about this since it became an issue in 2016 and the results of this are to be seen now.

Why is the Castlebar - Westport DC not been started, its been fenced of and ready to go for years already ??

marno21

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why is the Castlebar - Westport DC not been started, its been fenced of and ready to go for years already ??

Was originally in the capital plan to start in 2021 - it should now start the second half of 2019

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Was originally in the capital plan to start in 2021 - it should now start the second half of 2019

If there is money there ready to be spent, why wait over a year to start ? This has been shovel ready for a number of year, awaiting financing we were told!!

marno21

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If there is money there ready to be spent, why wait over a year to start ? This has been shovel ready for a number of year, awaiting financing we were told!!

The tender process started in May and will take around a year to complete - what I've been saying on this thread is more about the money that will be there to be spent in 2022 with no projects available to consume that money. The only project that looks like it'll be available to go then will be the N5 in Roscommon if approved

marno21

I think it's time to give this drum another rattle.

I posted the 2019 TII allocations for national road improvement schemes here last week: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109030180&postcount=242

This seems to prove to me one thing, and that is that the reality of a road building drought in the next couple of years is now coming close to certain. This is the list of projects remaining in Ireland that have planning permission and are not under construction or tendered:

M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
N52 Ardee bypass
N59 Moycullen bypass
N59 Westport-Mulranny (part of)
N69 Listowel bypass
N86 Tralee-Dingle (part of)

The M28 scheme is in the high court. The N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge scheme will be decided upon shortly. Then the N6 Galway, M21 Adare schemes are up for ABP decision in 2019. That's it.

Almost all of the pipeline schemes are looking at 4-5 years to get to An Bord Pleanala due to under resourcing. The N5 Ballaghaderren-Scramoge scheme, which approved will require the compulsory purchase of 35km of land and all the advance works required has been allocated €3.5m.

For schemes starting planning now, including the M20 Cork-Limerick, N4 Mullingar-Longford and the rest of the pipeline schemes, road openings this side of 2030 is not looking likely given current timescales.

This is disgraceful.

HabibiLibnen

marno21 wrote: »

I think it's time to give this drum another rattle.

I posted the 2019 TII allocations for national road improvement schemes here last week: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109030180&postcount=242

This seems to prove to me one thing, and that is that the reality of a road building drought in the next couple of years is now coming close to certain. This is the list of projects remaining in Ireland that have planning permission and are not under construction or tendered:

M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
N52 Ardee bypass
N59 Moycullen bypass
N59 Westport-Mulranny (part of)
N69 Listowel bypass
N86 Tralee-Dingle (part of)

The M28 scheme is in the high court. The N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge scheme will be decided upon shortly. Then the N6 Galway, M21 Adare schemes are up for ABP decision in 2019. That's it.

Almost all of the pipeline schemes are looking at 4-5 years to get to An Bord Pleanala due to under resourcing. The N5 Ballaghaderren-Scramoge scheme, which approved will require the compulsory purchase of 35km of land and all the advance works required has been allocated €3.5m.

For schemes starting planning now, including the M20 Cork-Limerick, N4 Mullingar-Longford and the rest of the pipeline schemes, road openings this side of 2030 is not looking likely given current timescales.

This is disgraceful.

Maybe this was a deliberate policy. We can't ignore the elephant in the room which is the MetroLink in Dublin which will cost €2 billion. That will commence in 2021 but most likely 2022 and won't be complete til 2027 or 2028.

The Bus Connects, I think and this can be verified, will cost €300 million. Maybe the Department, TII and NTA have decided off the record that these are the most pressing projects for the next decade and subsequently roads and motorways are taking the back seat until these are delivered.

Based on the evidence we have, I would say this is the case.

marno21

HabibiLibnen wrote: »

Maybe this was a deliberate policy. We can't ignore the elephant in the room which is the MetroLink in Dublin which will cost €2 billion. That will commence in 2021 but most likely 2022 and won't be complete til 2027 or 2028.

The Bus Connects, I think and this can be verified, will cost €300 million. Maybe the Department, TII and NTA have decided off the record that these are the most pressing projects for the next decade and subsequently roads and motorways are taking the back seat until these are delivered.

Based on the evidence we have, I would say this is the case.

National Planning Framework has seperate policy strands for both inter urban road investment & sustainable mobility/public transport. There is €8.6bn allocated for sustainable mobility in the NDP and €6.6bn for national roads. There is enough to go around such is that there should be no need to rob Peter to pay Paul in the rail vs road infrastructure battle.

This is more of a political issue than a financial one. The required sum to vastly accelerate the above projects would be about €60m for 2018. That's not an awful lot. Some of that would be project specific money and the rest would be to resource adequately TII and the regional RDOs. The main reason this isn't being done is because of the degenerate of a Minister in charge here who simply does not care.

HabibiLibnen

So how or why did Leo Varadkar decide to put Ross in the role of Minister of Transport and why hasn't he replaced him? Just imagine what Ring would achieve in this role. Or Boxer Moran etc etc.

It's baffling he has remained for over 2 years. It really is down to Ross because the above mentioned have vastly increased the budgets for their respective departments.

Oliver Callan has a skit on the 2018 budget where Zappone is bragging about all she's got for her department. She asks Ross what he's getting and he replies 'oh nothing because I forgot to ask for it.' That sums up his ineptitude quite succinctly.

marno21

HabibiLibnen wrote: »

So how or why did Leo Varadkar decide to put Ross in the role of Minister of Transport and why hasn't he replaced him? Just imagine what Ring would achieve in this role. Or Boxer Moran etc etc.

It's baffling he has remained for over 2 years. It really is down to Ross because the above mentioned have vastly increased the budgets for their respective departments.

Oliver Callan has a skit on the 2018 budget where Zappone is bragging about all she's got for her department. She asks Ross what he's getting and he replies 'oh nothing because I forgot to ask for it.' That sums up his ineptitude quite succinctly.

Kenny put him in there but I'm disappointed Varadkar didn't move him out of there. Maybe Ross was happy to stay in there for all the sports junkets and his solo runs about speeding and drink driving.

You'd think and hope after Varadkar's 3 years there that in future he might take it a bit more seriously than it's currently being taken.

Ring was junior Minister in DTTAS from 2011-16 and it's of no surprise to me that since he went in there both the Longford & Ballaghaderreen bypasses have been built, and the Westport-Turlough is about to start and Ballaghaderren-Scramoge is at ABP. I do know Kenny had an influence too but Ring was actually in the Department.

Someone remotely interested departmentally would have a lot better hold on things rather than the current outlook in Transport.

Andrew00

Lads how do I get a job with a company who will construct all these roads?

Any courses I could do?

prunudo

Lets face it, Ross takes the pressure off FG, while he hasn't done anything worthy of the sack his little and often errors put the spotlight on him and not everything else wrong with the current government. No point having a really good minister as all the excellent work will be behind the scenes and not news worthy.
Also remember the current climate of anti road and private car bashing that is coming from the environmentalists and cycling lobbyists.
Spending billions on roads doesn't go down well with some sections of the public given the 'homeless crisis' either. Even if there is an allocation in the NDP.

hans aus dtschl

jvan wrote: »

Lets face it, Ross takes the pressure off FG, while he hasn't done anything worthy of the sack his little and often errors put the spotlight on him and not everything else wrong with the current government. No point having a really good minister as all the excellent work will be behind the scenes and not news worthy.
Also remember the current climate of anti road and private car bashing that is coming from the environmentalists and cycling lobbyists.
Spending billions on roads doesn't go down well with some sections of the public given the 'homeless crisis' either. Even if there is an allocation in the NDP.

Fairly sure the "anti car" people want more infrastructure, rather than less.
The reality is that all transport infrastructure development has slowed right down. Roads aren't being progressed, rail hasn't progressed, release of transport plans is being delayed...
If you're looking to blame "cycling lobbyists", the national cycle expenditure is low-single-figures-percent of the overall budget, so you're going to have to account for the other >95% of the expenditure.

prunudo

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Fairly sure the "anti car" people want more infrastructure, rather than less.
The reality is that all transport infrastructure development has slowed right down. Roads aren't being progressed, rail hasn't progressed, release of transport plans is being delayed...
If you're looking to blame "cycling lobbyists", the national cycle expenditure is low-single-figures-percent of the overall budget, so you're going to have to account for the other >95% of the expenditure.

I'm talking about roads not infrastructure in general. In the current climate its not good pr to be building bypasses and improving bad stretches. Its easier to reduce the speed limits and fund cycle lanes in the towns and cities.