Irish Cycling Culture - Time For Proper Debate!

Middle Man

It is quite clear in having spoken/listened to people in Dublin, not everybody agrees that Irish cycling in its current form is a good thing. I think the real problem is the way in which cycling interests are systematically suppressing any dissent in public circles and religiously lobbying to get their way in transport/urban policy and such practices are not just confined to Ireland. With aforementioned in mind, I’ve started this thread to allow people who frequently visit general forums (such as After Hours) to air their views on cycling as the transport related forums appear to have become very elitist. This IMO is very wrong, so to start things off…

I have admittedly been very anti-cyclist with a view to rebalancing debate by attracting critics of cycling. This was in the hope that cycling interests would start to pull in their horns, realising that as road users, they have no more right to the roads than other users - even motorists. This has failed completely (in part, I have been far too negative I have to admit) so I thought, why not open up a debate on a general forum, because I do believe that many people have grievances over cycling culture but feel there’s no place to air their views, so this thread is intended to act as an opportunity for anyone (for or against cycling in its current form) to present their views (please keep it civil and fair).

Now, the main thing for me is that many cyclists want to be treated like a vehicle, but don’t seem to behave like one - now that’s only my view, but what am I specifically talking about?

1. Many don’t follow the rules of the road - breaking red lights, cycling on footpaths etc.
2. If they want to be treated like a vehicle, surely it’s reasonable for road cyclists to hold insurance and pay something towards the upkeep of the roads (it shouldn’t cost that much).
3. Junctions are being increasingly designed to inconvenience all motor transport users (buses included) so that cyclists can continue straight through the junctions without compromise.
4. Many cyclists seem to come across as plain car hating, but yet will publicly cry out against any material that’s not in their favour.
5. Any urban improvement that is made, cycling interests always seem to get their oar in - even improvements that’s nothing specifically to do with cycling - Luas Cross City and College Green Pedestrian Plaza for example.
6. Many cyclists seem to want to combine their commute and exercise so as to save time and money at the expense of other road users- for most other sports/hobbies, participants have to pay for venues/facilities - is this fair? After all, a road is for getting people (and goods) from A to B safely and efficiently.

That’s enough points made for now (again, they represent only one viewpoint), but what do you guys think? People reading this who feel that they’re not being heard need to get their views in regardless of their position - this is IMO a rare enough chance but do keep them civil and reasoned.

Please note, there’ll probably be a wave of people who’ll want to shut this forum down - either by discrediting it or demanding that it’s taken down. In light of this, please Do not post anything that is just pure anti-cyclist hate - I do not want this thread to become a cess-pit - such would be the perfect reason for it to be taken down. What’s needed is reasonable debate from all sides. Also, no one should be intimidated by any extremist posters no matter what side they’re on.

Once again, this thread is for fair and reasonable debate on the issue of cycling…

verycool

My only question is, why when there's a decent enough cycle lane would you then choose to cycle on the road?!

I've witnessed this puzzling behaviour a few times.

loyatemu

verycool wrote: »

My only question is, why when there's a decent enough cycle lane would you then choose to cycle on the road?!

though I will almost certainly deeply regret following this thread; show me a "decent enough cycle lane" in Dublin, one where a competent cyclist would not be better off staying on the road.

dxhound2005

How many junctions in the country have been designed to favour cyclists over motor vehicles? I have never driven or cycled through any.

buried

I remember years ago as a kid in the town I was from, during the 80's-90's, nearly half of both the national and secondary school students travelled by bike to and from the school, the roads were packed with people on bikes but there was way way more patience and room given by drivers to people on bikes. Nowadays, even just seeing one person using a bike on the road will cause immediate angst and impatience to a lot of drivers, but back then, there was no way that level of aggression between each other.

amcalester

Thread should be about all road users, not just cyclists, because a cúnt on a bike is most likely a cúnt in a car.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How many junctions in the country have been designed to favour cyclists over motor vehicles? I have never driven or cycled through any.

Dundalk is full of them.

But I'm saying no more, lest I break one of the OPs dictats.

Samuel T. Cogley

A load of MAMILs riding down the cycle track in Clontarf the other day, all over it not bothering to keep left almost knocked my wife off her bike. That's the kind of twat/bunch of twats that gives Irish cyclists a bad name.

Creative83

loyatemu wrote: »

though I will almost certainly deeply regret following this thread; show me a "decent enough cycle lane" in Dublin, one where a competent cyclist would not be better off staying on the road.

If there is a cycle lane adjacent to the road it should be used. If not fines should be dished out

amcalester

Stevie Orange Meteoroid wrote: »

Dundalk is full of them.

But I'm saying no more, lest I break one of the OPs dictats.

Really? I know a lot of money was spent on installing cycle lanes but I can’t think of any that prioritize cyclists over motorists.

whiskeyman

I personally don't think the problem is 'anti-cyclist'.
We're just far too 'pro-car' in this country, and Dublin especially.
End of the day, the more people on bikes is good for the health of the nation.

yesto24

Try doing roadworks.
You get the occasional idiot driver who can't read temporary road signs and drive in the lane I have closed.
But my real hatred is for the significant number of cyclists who cycle in the lane I have closed.
If you think a truck driving have a big blind spot imagine what a road planer, roller or sweeper has.
They just don't care. If one of them get killed or injured on my site, apart from the amount of paperwork I will have to do, I won't be losing any sleep.
I will care about the man, and they are all men, under my direction who injured or killed the cyclist but that's where my concern will end.

colm_mcm

amcalester wrote: »

Really? I know a lot of money was spent on installing cycle lanes but I can’t think of any that prioritize cyclists over motorists.

A lot of junctions in Limerick for example have space at the top of the queue for cyclists. That’s not to say that Limerick is a good place to cycle or anything.

JohnnyFlash

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

A load of MAMILs riding down the cycle track in Clontarf the other day, all over it not bothering to keep left almost knocked my wife off her bike. That's the kind of twat/bunch of twats that gives Irish cyclists a bad name.

MAMILS are dreadful. Completely obnoxious road users when in groups of more than 2. Dangerous when using the narrow roads in the Dublin and Wicklow mountains. Hopefully the cycling thing will die out and they head back out to the golf courses where they belong.

Hurrache

Middle Man wrote: »

It I do not want this thread to become a cess-pit -

Yeah, I'm going to call BS on this as your opening post opened the grate and had one foot already in.

That, the fact you started it in After Hours, and we've already regulars posting who like to make up stories.

P_1

colm_mcm wrote: »

A lot of junctions in Limerick for example have space at the top of the queue for cyclists. That’s not to say that Limerick is a good place to cycle or anything.

You mean advanced stop lines? Essentially they're there to allow a cyclist to be seen by the waiting traffic and to exit the junction quicker. This is pretty much a safety thing, especially on junctions where there's a left hand turn.

amcalester

colm_mcm wrote: »

A lot of junctions in Limerick for example have space at the top of the queue for cyclists. That’s not to say that Limerick is a good place to cycle or anything.

Hadn’t thought of those. They are advanced stop lines and are a safety feature to allow cyclists a head start and to safely stay out of a truck’s blind spot.

Unfortunately they tend to be ignored and motorists just stop in them anyway.

Middle Man

Middle Man wrote: »

Now, the main thing for me is that many cyclists want to be treated like a vehicle, but don’t seem to behave like one - now that’s only my view, but what am I specifically talking about?

1. Many don’t follow the rules of the road - breaking red lights, cycling on footpaths etc.
2. If they want to be treated like a vehicle, surely it’s reasonable for road cyclists to hold insurance and pay something towards the upkeep of the roads (it shouldn’t cost that much).
3. Junctions are being increasingly designed to inconvenience all motor transport users (buses included) so that cyclists can continue straight through the junctions without compromise.
4. Many cyclists seem to come across as plain car hating, but yet will publicly cry out against any material that’s not in their favour.
5. Any urban improvement that is made, cycling interests always seem to get their oar in - even improvements that’s nothing specifically to do with cycling - Luas Cross City and College Green Pedestrian Plaza for example.
6. Many cyclists seem to want to combine their commute and exercise so as to save time and money at the expense of other road users- for most other sports/hobbies, participants have to pay for venues/facilities - is this fair? After all, a road is for getting people (and goods) from A to B safely and efficiently.

In order and avoiding taking up too much time:

• All road users break laws all the time. This argument is the same as saying let's not build new roads because lots of people break the speed limit.
• Damage to roads caused by cyclists is effectively nil. Are we really suggesting that in order to cycle to the shops a kid needs insurance? Why don't pedestrians need insurance? A dumb argument that has been done to death.
• I don't know a single junction in Ireland where "cyclists can continue straight through without compromise". Can you show me one on google maps?
• Some cyclists probably do hate cars but most drive them just like you and me. There are stats out there.
• Cycling interests should get their oar in, as should all other interests. That's called a functioning planning system. BTW the issue with the Luas Cross City is that cyclists were completely ignored in the process, not sure how that matches the idea that the lobby is too powerful?
• It isn't 'fair' that cyclists get exercise when moving from A to B? Is this a joke?

Hope this helps

I was driving by RTÉ last Wednesday when I saw somebody lying on the road/cul de sac (Greenfield Park) opposite it. He had a blanket on him which was really disturbing (in accidents I come upon there's usually people around trying to communicate). I found out later through searching for news about it that evening that he had died. He was a 19-year-old Dubliner and had just started an engineering degree in Trinners last September. The whole world at his feet. Such an ineffably huge waste of a life and so many heartbroken lives and dreams in its wake.

I was talking to somebody in Ceann Trá in the Kerry gaeltacht that night about it and she knew his grandmother well as she had been her neighbour. The reach of one death in our tiny society is very wide.

I lived in Scandinavia over 20 years ago. We, the Irish, are still not providing the infrastructure to make cycling safer that they had there then. So many cycle lanes which are also parking spaces and used freely by vehicles. Sandford Road in Ranelagh springs to mind as an example. That's just a big PFO from the local authority to anybody who wants to cycle in this city. Time to replan the city from top to bottom - because unlike the 17th-century Dutch designers of, for instance, Göteborg, who had the vision to plan wide streets and canals, Dublin has never had such visionary planners.

Aside from infrastructure there has to be a massive cultural change here. And not just from drivers and local councillors; a cyclist stopping at a red light until it goes green is a novelty here. Those colours mean something. And it's not worth taking risks against moving vehicles: like a fella throwing spears at a machine gun, a cyclist or pedestrian will always, always lose.

Middle Man

Deleted User wrote: »

I was driving by RTÉ last Wednesday when I saw somebody lying on the road/cul de sac (Greenfield Park) opposite it. He had a blanket on him which was really disturbing (in accidents I come upon there's usually people around trying to communicate). I found out later through searching for news about it that evening that he had died. He was a 19-year-old Dubliner and had just started an engineering degree in Trinners last September. The whole world at his feet. Such an ineffably huge waste of a life and so many heartbroken lives and dreams in its wake.

I was talking to somebody in Ceann Trá in the Kerry gaeltacht that night about it and she knew his grandmother well as she had been her neighbour. The reach of one death in our tiny society is very wide.

I lived in Scandinavia over 20 years ago. We, the Irish, are still not providing the infrastructure to make cycling safer that they had there then. So many cycle lanes which are also parking spaces and used freely by vehicles. Sandford Road in Ranelagh springs to mind as an example. That's just a big PFO from the local authority to anybody who wants to cycle in this city. Time to replan the city from top to bottom - because unlike the 17th-century Dutch designers of, for instance, Göteborg, who had the vision to plan wide streets and canals, Dublin has never had such visionary planners.

Aside from infrastructure there has to be a massive cultural change here. And not just from drivers and local councillors; a cyclist stopping at a red light until it goes green is a novelty here. Those colours mean something. And it's not worth taking risks against moving vehicles: like a fella throwing spears at a machine gun, a cyclist or pedestrian will always, always lose.

Absolutely agree - planning in Ireland is traditionally very short sighted and haphazard - this IMO is the main reason for our traffic problems.

evancunny95

I live in the Netherlands (Utrecht). It is well known as the cycling capital of the world. Aside from the obvious infrastructural differences to me what is most noticeable is that nobody is a 'cyclist'... Bikes are simply a mode of transport, getting from A to B fast and efficient, people aren't labelled and dont identify as cyclists.

Anyone who is 'anti bikes' needs to visit Utrecht. It will completely change your perception. Life is infinitely easier, I could go on forever about how, but to save me and you just watch one of these videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMh_b9THR1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDLb6biq39A

This is the future of sustainable cities, its as simple as that.

Hurrache

[Deleted User] wrote: »

a cyclist stopping at a red light until it goes green is a novelty here.

You were making good points until here. There's a recent survey which show more motorists break red lights than cyclists in Dublin, and only 1-8 cyclists according to the RSA themselves across the whole of Ireland.

riffmongous

I've never had problems with cyclists in European cities, but everytime I go back to Ireland I'm shocked by what I see cyclists doing in Dublin, how more aren't killed I don't know. So many are just totally reckless

Pedro K

Middle Man wrote: »

1. Many don’t follow the rules of the road - breaking red lights, cycling on footpaths etc.
2. If they want to be treated like a vehicle, surely it’s reasonable for road cyclists to hold insurance and pay something towards the upkeep of the roads (it shouldn’t cost that much).
3. Junctions are being increasingly designed to inconvenience all motor transport users (buses included) so that cyclists can continue straight through the junctions without compromise.
4. Many cyclists seem to come across as plain car hating, but yet will publicly cry out against any material that’s not in their favour.
5. Any urban improvement that is made, cycling interests always seem to get their oar in - even improvements that’s nothing specifically to do with cycling - Luas Cross City and College Green Pedestrian Plaza for example.
6. Many cyclists seem to want to combine their commute and exercise so as to save time and money at the expense of other road users- for most other sports/hobbies, participants have to pay for venues/facilities - is this fair? After all, a road is for getting people (and goods) from A to B safely and efficiently.

First of all. I'll preface this by saying I don't cycle.

Your points.

1. Correct. And I'll never condone it. I will engage in a little bit of whataboutery here though, I'm afraid. I see far more car drivers breaking rules of the road every day, and far more car drivers unaware of simple lane discipline and the likes.

2. They do pay towards upkeep of the roads. That comes from general taxation. Most cyclists also have cars. They pay VAT on any purchases. They pay PAYE. Motor tax is not ringfenced for road maintenance.

3. That's why you're supposed to check your wing mirror before turning left. I would guess that most junctions are designed terribly from a cyclists perspective. Perhaps one of them can confirm?

4. Because many cyclists (I'm a motorcyclist and car driver, so can empathise with cyclists here) are used to getting nearly hit by cars every day, being squeezed into the gutter, or being victims of SMIDSYs. Anyone would get annoyed.

5. I don't see an issue with this. Doesn't do me any harm.

6. Yes. Of course it's fair. Nobody's stopping anyone else from doing the same to save time or money.

Sile Na Gig

I loved cycling in Dublin when I lived there over a decade ago. It’s by far the quickest and least frustrating way to get around town, especially when you consider parking, one way streets etc. I liked that, compared to where I live now, there’s not a massive Lycra clad culture. I do think that some of the roads are way too narrow for the cars that are on them, never mind cyclists. It seems like cars have gotten bigger over the last while. Ranelagh road is a nightmare- they should get rid of on street parking and make a cycle lane that you can actually use. Camden Street is fairly perilous too- the bus fumes! I think that a lot of drivers rage comes from being stuck in an expensive metal box watching the cyclists whizz past them.

diomed

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

MAMILS are dreadful. Completely obnoxious road users when in groups of more than 2. Dangerous when using the narrow roads in the Dublin and Wicklow mountains. Hopefully the cycling thing will die out and they head back out to the golf courses where they belong.

Or ....
when I an out driving my 4x4 for a weekend spin I want empty roads.

Middle Man

Hurrache wrote: »

You were making good points until here. There's a recent survey which show more motorists break red lights than cyclists in Dublin, and only 1-8 cyclists according to the RSA themselves across the whole of Ireland.

As a pedestrian, I have not seen any evidence of this - perhaps going by absolute numbers, more motorists break red lights, but then there are a lot more motorists than cyclists. I think far more cyclists break red lights in terms of modal percentage. To be fair however, I have seen more cyclists stopping at red lights in recent times than before - maybe things there are going the right direction.

Stonedpilot

People resent proper cyclists. Im not talking about the fat little lads outside the chipper on their nicked mountain bikes.

No PROPER cyclists. Cycle for leisure and fitness and cycle proper bikes top of the range Giants/Treks wear helmets follow the rules of the road.

People resent them as they tend to be very fit. Most people in Ireland resent fit outdoorsy types.

Especially all the 350 pound slobs on online forums who think a walk more than 5 minutes is enough exercise in a day.

bilbot79

I think the OP has made a mistake in trying to think of cyclists as a road users with equal merit to motorists. It's not like that at all. There is an unwritten order of merit based on vulnerability to death.

Motorists are less important than cyclists and pedestrians

Cyclists are more important than motorists but less important than pedestrians

Pedestrians are more important than everybody

This is why motorists should be more respectful of cyclists than seems fair.

beauf

Middle Man wrote: »

...
Once again, this thread is for fair and reasonable debate on the issue of cycling…

Most of the issues you will not understand properly until you have experience of cycling.

You seem to want to put cycling in a car shaped box. That is why you are having difficulty with it.

There is no need for a debate. The traffic gridlock, cost of driving will push more people to cycling. The weight of numbers of cyclists will force change.

marvin80

Middle Man wrote: »

please keep it civil and fair.

Now, the main thing for me is that many cyclists want to be treated like a vehicle, but don’t seem to behave like one - now that’s only my view, but what am I specifically talking about?

1. Many don’t follow the rules of the road - breaking red lights, cycling on footpaths etc.
2. If they want to be treated like a vehicle, surely it’s reasonable for road cyclists to hold insurance and pay something towards the upkeep of the roads (it shouldn’t cost that much).
3. Junctions are being increasingly designed to inconvenience all motor transport users (buses included) so that cyclists can continue straight through the junctions without compromise.
4. Many cyclists seem to come across as plain car hating, but yet will publicly cry out against any material that’s not in their favour.
5. Any urban improvement that is made, cycling interests always seem to get their oar in - even improvements that’s nothing specifically to do with cycling - Luas Cross City and College Green Pedestrian Plaza for example.
6. Many cyclists seem to want to combine their commute and exercise so as to save time and money at the expense of other road users- for most other sports/hobbies, participants have to pay for venues/facilities - is this fair? After all, a road is for getting people (and goods) from A to B safely and efficiently.

Once again, this thread is for fair and reasonable debate on the issue of cycling…

Some contradictions in your opening post....................well done.

Stonedpilot

beauf wrote: »

Most of the issues you will not understand properly until you have experience of cycling.

You seem to want to put cycling in a car shaped box. That is why you are having difficulty with it.

There is no need for a debate. The traffic gridlock, cost of driving will push more people to cycling. The weight of numbers of cyclists will force change.

Good point.

Motorists no experience of cycling whinging bullshyte is tedious.

beauf

Stonedpilot wrote: »

People resent proper cyclists. Im not talking about the fat little lads outside the chipper on their nicked mountain bikes.

No PROPER cyclists. Cycle for leisure and fitness and cycle proper bikes top of the range Giants/Treks wear helmets follow the rules of the road.

People resent them as they tend to be very fit. Most people in Ireland resent fit outdoorsy types.

Especially all the 350 pound slobs on online forums who think a walk more than 5 minutes is enough exercise in a day.

No they resent people who cycle or drive like obnoxious cretins.

beauf

Middle Man wrote: »

As a pedestrian, I have not seen any evidence of this - perhaps going by absolute numbers, more motorists break red lights, but then there are a lot more motorists than cyclists. I think far more cyclists break red lights in terms of modal percentage. To be fair however, I have seen more cyclists stopping at red lights in recent times than before - maybe things there are going the right direction.

The only way to remove or our personal bias from stats is to do a proper survey.

The issue isn't who breaks lights more but how come we've never seen a cop stop anyone for doing it.

Duckjob

Not exactly sure of the percentage but 80-90% of adult cyclists are also motorists. These are people who pay their "road tax", and then leave their cars parked at home thereby:
a) not causing wear on the road (wear to roads by bicycles is negligible)
b) not polluting the environment and causing cancers and
c) lessening the gridlock situation (which ironically exists because people doggedly want to sit in their cars no matter how how long it takes and how frustrated it makes them)

So, if you want to treat cyclists as a group (which most anti-cycling people are determined to do as regards perceived rule breaking), then "cyclists" are subsidizing "motorists".

The tax you pay as a motorist is because everytime you drive you are injecting poison into the air (car emissions being one of the leading cancer causes), and the "road tax" you are so proud of paying isn't a drop in the ocean of the healthcare costs that ultimately have to be paid by everybody in society to afford you the privelege to swan around in your car.

CruelCoin

verycool wrote: »

My only question is, why when there's a decent enough cycle lane would you then choose to cycle on the road?!

I've witnessed this puzzling behaviour a few times.

Similarly, when the hard shoulder is over a metre wide, why do they insist on cycling to the right of the line?
If we're to leave that gap, it's a defacto illegal to pass zone if there's any sort of oncoming traffic.

fattymuatty

My husband, kids and I cycle. We also have a car and pay road tax. I cycle to school with the kids every day and my husband cycles to work(I work from home). We also cycle anywhere we need to get to that is within cycling distance. We always follow the rules of the road and the kids who are 8 and 11 are very well versed on the rules and safety. We live in a small town in the west, there are no cycle lanes, we don't get given priority anywhere. We don't hate cars, we have one. We don't have any say on 'urban improvement'.We don't really save much money by cycling everywhere. The kids school is a 10min drive, my husbands work is a ten minute drive, if we were driving everywhere it'd be like 20e a week maybe tops.

We cycle because it is better for the environment and better for us, that is all there is to it. No great scheme to take over the roads or annoy motorists, just a normal family trying to do our bit for the environment and trying to raise healthy kids who are respectful of the environment. I don't want to be congratulated on that and I don't feel that we are better than anyone else who decides to drive everywhere but I don't think we deserve the ire that cyclists(I don't even see myself as a 'cyclist', just someone who uses her bike to get places) seem to bring out in people.

Samuel T. Cogley

Why is it that when ever Irish cyclists are accused of being a bunch of **** they simply cite that Irish motorist are a bunch of **** like that's some sort of excuse. Two wrongs do not make a right. People like me that go out of their way to give cyclists room get jaded very quickly when the slightest courtesy can't be extended the other way.

Grayson

I spent three days in Haarlem in the Netherlands last month. It was beautiful in the centre. No cars, people cycling everywhere. It was quiet, the air was fresh and everyone seemed ok with it. I'd love to live somewhere that cycling wasn't a risky endeavor. Because it is risky in Ireland and especially Dublin

I'm not a cyclist because I believe that you'd have to be insane to cycle in Dublin. As a pedestrian the number of times I've nearly been hit by cars is unreal. I've stood at a junction waiting to cross and counted the number of cars turning without using indicators and one day it was 1 in 3. Irish motorists are terrible. Even when they're parked they're inconsiderate. I live next to a school and it's not unusual to see them triple parked and parked completely on the footpath when they wait for their kids. I, and a load of kids end up walking on the road because we can't use the path.
Added to the fact that cycle lanes in Dublin double as bus lanes most of the time and the incentives to cycle are very few.
If we want to take cycling seriously we need to invest more in cycling. That's never going to happen though.

I do wonder sometimes if the people who have a grudge against cyclists have ever been on the road in anything other than a car.

Beta Ray Bill

I use Motorcycle a lot so I'm kind of in the middle of the road with this.
I have not issue with cyclists on the road, they don't bother me and I don't bother them.

I do take issue with a number of things regarding cycling.
Obviously not all cyclists do the below but a lot do:

1: Cycling on foot paths, for me this is an absolute No No. Anyone caught doing this should have their bike seized. (Alfie Byrne Road on Dublin is an example of this)
2: Tearing through Parks and high speed. This happens all the time in St Annes on the main road of the Park. People cycling a full pelt. Small kids everywhere, it's an accident waiting to happen.
3: A lot cyclists don't obey traffic laws, breaking lights and riding outside cycles lanes with a solid white line. (This doesn't bother me to much)
4: Cyclist attitudes. It's grand for me if I'm on an open road if I come across cyclists ridding 2 (or even 3) abreast, I'm on a bike, I can get past easily. Tucks and Cars however can have difficulty getting passed. Cyclists don't seem to give a sh*t.
5: Safety, The amount of cyclists not wearing highviz gear, lights, helmets etc is staggering.
Then there is this guy (spotted in Walkinstown yesterday):

Why?

Things I think needs to be done for cyclists.
1: Some of the cycle lanes are in sh*t. They put that red crap on the ground or just painted a white line near a kerb or "Use the Bus Lane". (THe Cycle Lane on Coast road in Clontarf, is how a cycle lane should be built, although bus lanes were needlessly sacrificed to build it)
2: Cyclists get an awful lot of grief off motorists cause they are "in the way", people just need to accept that they are here and are not going anywhere so deal with it.
3: Deaths. Nearly every 2nd, week there is cyclist killed on the roads in Dublin. they are being knocked down everyday. Pedestrians walk out in front of them all the time. Bicycles don't stop very well.
4: Training. You don't need to know the rules of the road or pass a test to get on a bicycle and ride it on a public road. Motorcyclists are trained on how to use a bike. The amount of cyclists I see not doing "life savers" and riding up the inside of trucks and buses is staggering. They are doing this because they do not know the danger they are in. I'm not talking about a driving test here, I'm talking about something like an IBT where you get a cert at the end to say you've been shown what to do, what's safe, what's not, etc

In relation to the Infrastructure, there are a lot of cyclists on the councils of the main cities up and down the country, and they are pushing an agenda without a doubt... But that's just politics, If you don't like it, run for an election yourself or push someone through who's anti cycling.
Generally though cycling is seen as a way to ease traffic congestion, so most councilors are in favor of cycling schemes.

RoboRat

I cycle, I don't break red lights nor do I go to the front of the traffic at a light... I stop in the queue as I would should I be driving.

I keep tight to the side of the road when I can as I generally cycle solo but this in itself causes problems as people try to squeeze by you rather than overtaking - when HGV's and buses do this, it's very dangerous and I can see why many cyclists cycle further out so that a vehicle HAS to overtake rather than squeeze by.

I don't use cycle lanes as they are not for someone clocking 30 kmph and there are often people walking/ running in them and worst of all, people with dogs who are extremely unpredictable - not something I want to deal at speed.

I personally think that everyone should do a cycling course and get a feel of how it feels for someone to pass you without the appropriate room. Likewise, I think that groups of cyclists should have more consideration for other road users.

surely it’s reasonable for road cyclists to hold insurance and pay something towards the upkeep of the roads (it shouldn’t cost that much).

Bikes don't cut up roads and most bike owners have cars, so they already contribute. They also pay VAT, PAYE, USC etc and the specific tax motorists pay is motor tax, not road tax, and bikes don't have motors. Motor tax isn't solely for the upkeep of roads anyhow, it is used for a lot of things including carbon credits, hence the motor tax. Pedestrians don't have to contribute extra and they have dedicated footpaths which also require maintenance.

I think the problem is them versus us rather than all of us.

seamus

grahambo wrote: »

I use Motorcycle a lot so I'm kind of in the middle of the road with this.
I have not issue with cyclists on the road, they don't bother me and I don't bother them.

I do take issue with a number of things regarding cycling.
Obviously not all cyclists do the below but a lot do:

1: Cycling on foot paths, for me this is an absolute No No. Anyone caught doing this should have their bike seized. (Alfie Byrne Road on Dublin is an example of this)
2: Tearing through Parks and high speed. This happens all the time in St Annes on the main road of the Park. People cycling a full pelt. Small kids everywhere, it's an accident waiting to happen.
3: A lot cyclists don't obey traffic laws, breaking lights and riding outside cycles lanes with a solid white line. (This doesn't bother me to much)
4: Cyclist attitudes. It's grand for me if I'm on an open road if I come across cyclists ridding 2 (or even 3) abreast, I'm on a bike, I can get past easily. Tucks and Cars however can have difficulty getting passed. Cyclists don't seem to give a sh*t.
5: Safety, The amount of cyclists not wearing highviz gear, lights, helmets etc is staggering.
Then there is this guy (spotted in Walkinstown yesterday):

Thing is though, there's not a single one of them that doesn't apply to all road users.
- Vehicles park where they're not supposed to, block up paths and streets while they "nip in" somewhere.
- Vehicles drive far too fast in areas busy with pedestrians. Look at the furore over the 30km/h zone - vehicles seem to believe they have a right to drive as fast as they feel they should.
- A lot of vehicles don't obey the rules of the road. It's endemic.
- Drivers' attitudes. "Fnck you, I'll drive where I like". Blocking yellow boxes and junctions because it suits them, driving the wrong way down one-way streets, forcing their way down narrow streets, making cyclists move over even when they they have the right of way.
- Safety. Staggering the amount of drivers driving dark vehicles, broken lights, no helmets, bald tyres, smoke pouring out of exhausts.

Of course my point is not to get into a tit-for-tat, my point is that all road users have their sh1tty points. There is no one hero group or villian group. I agree that an adult on their own cycling on a path should have the bike lifted. So too for lots of other infractions. All vehicles parked illegally should be lifted and impounded. Driving bans should be handed out for all drink-driving offences. Car without tax or insurance should be crushed.

We need to get away from this finger-pointing culture and acknowledge that we all make mistakes and we all need to continually work on our own behaviour.

One of the more interesting exercises I did in a driving course years back was to get a group of people in a room and ask them what they hate most about other drivers - what things they do that annoy you the most.

Then ask them to be honest and admit the errors that they make most frequently while driving.

There's a 90%+ overlap between the two.

The point being that we are all guilty of the exact same infringements that we complain about others doing. The only difference is that in our case we know we've done it out of benevolence or forgetfulness. But when others do it we attribute malice to it. The fact that you've assigned "attitudes" to cyclists above is a perfect illustration of this. You have no idea what their attitudes are. You have seen behaviour on the road and assigned "attitude" to it, when in fact it's done completely without agenda.

The Bishop Basher

fattymuatty wrote: »

We cycle because it is better for the environment and better for us, that is all there is to it. No great scheme to take over the roads or annoy motorists, just a normal family trying to do our bit for the environment and trying to raise healthy kids who are respectful of the environment. I don't want to be congratulated on that and I don't feel that we are better than anyone else who decides to drive everywhere but I don't think we deserve the ire that cyclists(I don't even see myself as a 'cyclist', just someone who uses her bike to get places) seem to bring out in people.

If only every cyclist was like you.. you sound far too reasonable though.. they’d eat you alive in Dublin..

I sat behind 5 well built MAMILS recently as they took up an entire lane with a perfectly good cycle lane beside them. (I know because I’ve used it). They do it every weekend in their droves here in North Wicklow. Anyway, as one of the cars in front managed to get by they let a bip of the horn to express their dissatisfaction.

Almost as if they had practiced this routine, the group of scantily clad beyond middle aged men let out a cheer of delight while waving a one finger salute at the lady driving. I passed her further on up the road and could see these men were probably old enough to be her grandfather. It’s clear they were looking for confrontation. I actually went back to look for them and have a word but they were gone.

They were aresholes being arseholes and they were using their bicycles to act as such.. plain and simple.

Anyway this is one of far too many to mention incidents I’ve personally witnessed.

Two sets of traffic lights close to my house are lethal at the weekends, not because of cars who, in my experience, tend to stop at red lights, but because of the countless cyclists often in large groups who like to pretend they don’t exist at all.

Very large groups are another growing problem here at the weekends. It can be almost impossible to pass a group of 10 / 15 cyclists without long clear stretches of road which are few and far between up the backroads of wicklow. There can be significant tailbacks at times and we need to remember that many of these people in cars are going about their business and doing a days work as opposed to out on a leisure pursuit.

Simple things would make life easier for everyone. Car drivers can be arseholes too and we’ve all met them but they aren’t the same level of nuisance as cyclists can be and that breeds resentment among motorists whether we like it or not.

Is what it is though. Nothings going to change. I’ve learned to avoid stress these days so I avoid travelling backroads in Wicklow at the weekend and let all the folks on 2 wheels with or without motors have their fun.

RDM_83 again

They should look at allowing cyclists to make a left turn at red lights if they are keeping into the shoulder.

The breaking lights thing isn't a clear cut thing IMO, there is stupid dangerous (to themselves and pedestrians) breaking lights and there is situations where slowing to a stop allows you to pull ahead of dangers like HGV.
Assertiveness and breaking some rules can actually be safer than strict obedience which is counter intuitive but has real evidence that this is the case.
More women than men get killed by trucks due to this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8296971.stm

I do agree there is a fair amount of "bad" cyclists though particularly among the people pushing speeds a lot faster than the traffic flow (and in some cases the speed limit)

Beta Ray Bill

seamus wrote: »

Thing is though, there's not a single one of them that doesn't apply to all road users.

Agreed, but I think in terms of percentage cyclists do it more as they can easily get away with it.

seamus wrote: »

- Vehicles park where they're not supposed to, block up paths and streets while they "nip in" somewhere.

Pet hate of mine!

seamus wrote: »

- Vehicles drive far too fast in areas busy with pedestrians. Look at the furore over the 30km/h zone - vehicles seem to believe they have a right to drive as fast as they feel they should.

In fairness the 30kph speed restriction is stupid. I can cycle faster than 30kph and cyclists cannot get speeding fines! 30kph is actually very slow. 40kph would be better

seamus wrote: »

We need to get away from this finger-pointing culture and acknowledge that we all make mistakes and we all need to continually work on our own behaviour.

One of the more interesting exercises I did in a driving course years back was to get a group of people in a room and ask them what they hate most about other drivers - what things they do that annoy you the most.

Then ask them to be honest and admit the errors that they make most frequently while driving.

There's a 90%+ overlap between the two.

The point being that we are all guilty of the exact same infringements that we complain about others doing. The only difference is that in our case we know we've done it out of benevolence or forgetfulness. But when others do it we attribute malice to it. The fact that you've assigned "attitudes" to cyclists above is a perfect illustration of this. You have no idea what their attitudes are. You have seen behaviour on the road and assigned "attitude" to it, when in fact it's done completely without agenda.

I think most motorists obey all of the rules all of the time, reason being if you are caught breaking the rules there is penalty (dreaded points on licence).
If you're a cyclist there is no real penalty. Over half of the fines handed out to cyclists for breaking the rules have not been paid.
Even if it were free, there would be a huge backlash/resistance from cyclists to have a "Cycling Licence" that could accumulate penalty points that would affect their Car licence.

Weepsie wrote: »

Just as an FYI for cycle lanes, a solid white line does not mean that the bike/traffic inside has to stay within that lane, it's to signal motorised vehicles can't enter.

It's a mandatory cycle lane, but in the legislation mandatory is explained as one that only bikes or wheelchair users can enter but they don't have to use them.

I think motorists perhaps don't know this

RSA guy on Primetime (I think) a few weeks back says otherwise.
Only reason I mentioned that was cause he mentioned it, and I genuinely did not know that cyclists are supposed to stay in the cycle lane where there is a solid white line.

I'm in work now, I'll see if I can dig out the link later

RDM_83 again wrote: »

The breaking lights thing isn't a clear cut thing IMO, there is stupid dangerous (to themselves and pedestrians) breaking lights and there is situations where slowing to a stop allows you to pull ahead of dangers like HGV.
Assertiveness and breaking some rules can actually be safer than strict obedience which is counter intuitive but has real evidence that this is the case.
More women than men get killed by trucks due to this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8296971.stm

This!

Taken from the the article:


The amount of people I see doing this (#1) is unbelievable!
They must absolutely no idea the danger they are in.

amcalester

grahambo wrote: »

RSA guy on Primetime (I think) a few weeks back says otherwise.
Only reason I mentioned that was cause he mentioned it, and I genuinely did not know that cyclists are supposed to stay in the cycle lane where there is a solid white line.

I'm in work now, I'll see if I can dig out the link later

The RSA said the lanes were mandatory but what he didnt clarify was that it is not mandatory for cyclists to use them rather it is mandatory for motorists not to use them.

The terminology used is confusing.

seamus

grahambo wrote: »

In fairness the 30kph speed restriction is stupid. I can cycle faster than 30kph and cyclists cannot get speeding fines! 30kph is actually very slow. 40kph would be better

For the motorist it makes no odds though. The difference between 30kph and 40kph to travel 1km, is 30 seconds. That's actually nothing, especially when you have traffic lights every 200m anyway. Nobody is in that much of a rush that a 30kph limit will make any difference to their life.

But for the vulnerable person who gets hit by the car, the difference between 30kph and 40kph is life and death.

I think most motorists obey all of the rules all of the time, reason being if you are caught breaking the rules there is penalty (dreaded points on licence).

I disagree. In my experience, most motorists road users break some of the rules all of the time. Just not the big ones. Did you break the speed limit on the way to work today? Drive through any amber lights? Turn without indicating? Filter outside a line of traffic where there's a solid white line? Stop ahead of the white line at traffic lights?
Have a think about your commute. You broke at least one rule today.

Either way, it's an enforcement issue. There is a penalty for cyclists just like there is for any other. But if you don't enforce rules, people will ignore them. That's what people do.

The Bishop Basher

Grayson wrote: »

I spent three days in Haarlem in the Netherlands last month. It was beautiful in the centre. No cars, people cycling everywhere. It was quiet, the air was fresh and everyone seemed ok with it. I'd love to live somewhere that cycling wasn't a risky endeavor.

100% Agree

Stayed with friends in the outskirts of Amsterdam recently. Cycling around the various countryside canal routes and along the Amstel river was like a therapy in itself.

It was pure bliss..

Duckjob

grahambo wrote:

I think most motorists obey all of the rules all of the time

Beta Ray Bill

seamus wrote: »

For the motorist it makes no odds though. The difference between 30kph and 40kph to travel 1km, is 30 seconds. That's actually nothing, especially when you have traffic lights every 200m anyway. Nobody is in that much of a rush that a 30kph limit will make any difference to their life.

But for the vulnerable person who gets hit by the car, the difference between 30kph and 40kph is life and death.

I thought that was 40kph to 50kph?
Do we have an stats on how many pedestrains died in Dublin City Centre as a result of speed over the last 10 years? (places where there is a 30kph speed limit)

seamus wrote: »

I disagree. In my experience, most motorists road users break some of the rules all of the time. Just not the big ones. Did you break the speed limit on the way to work today? Drive through any amber lights? Turn without indicating? Filter outside a line of traffic where there's a solid white line? Stop ahead of the white line at traffic lights?

I understand what you are saying here.

seamus wrote: »

Have a think about your commute. You broke at least one rule today.

None... I got the DART today
If I am to answer honestly though, I have gone above 30kph
I never filter outside a white line, I stop at Amber if I can.
Always indicate. I'm on a motorcycle If I make a mistake I could be seriously injured.

seamus wrote: »

Either way, it's an enforcement issue. There is a penalty for cyclists just like there is for any other. But if you don't enforce rules, people will ignore them. That's what people do.

Exactly, but we don't have the resources to enforce rules on cyclists.
I wouldn't be happy if a percentage of the Garda were moved to the traffic corps ensure cyclists are following the rules.
It's a problem Yes, is it a Huge Problem?... No.

seamus

grahambo wrote: »

Exactly, but we don't have the resources to enforce rules on cyclists.
I wouldn't be happy if a percentage of the Garda were moved to the traffic corps ensure cyclists are following the rules.
It's a problem Yes, is it a Huge Problem?... No.

Ultimately we don't and won't have the resources to police everything. Culturally, we don't aspire to the levels of oppressive policing that you see in the US or some Asian countries.

So where do/should the traffic corps focus their limited resources? On the stuff that poses the largest danger to the public. And that's virtually always going to be infractions by vehicles, and not infractions by cyclists or pedestrians.

Does it seem unfair? Sure. But it makes the most sense. Virtually all of our road deaths, and the majority of injuries, are due to vehicular collisions.