Mother has to go into care

John6008

My elderly mother has to go into care . She owns the family home out right , do I have to sell it ? It’s left to me and I don’t want to sell it ?
How much will I have to pay for the care will the government take all the money ? Any help will be great ?

Riskymove

John6008 wrote: »

My elderly mother has to go into care . She owns the family home out right , do I have to sell it ? It’s left to me and I don’t want to sell it ?
How much will I have to pay for the care will the government take all the money ? Any help will be great ?

Some info here

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

Henry Ford III

Riskymove wrote: »

Some info here

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

Fair Deal is a bit of a journey for many. I found it pretty challenging when I set it in motion for a relation. Ended up going through a long and involved appeals procedure which terminated with the Ombudsman (we won).

In summary HSE take:-

1/. 80% of income. Pensions, investment income, rents etc.
2/. 7.5% p.a. of all investments excluding property (less €36k single or €72k couple).
3/. 7.5% p.a. of the value of any property to a max. of 3 years (22.5%).

What it means in reality:-

1/. There'll be relatively little income left for spending but all Nursing Home Costs will be met. They are pretty expensive.

2/. This can be pretty sore since few/any investments are yielding anything like 7.5% net.

3/. The property doesn't have to be sold, but it makes little sense to rent it since 80% of that will be claimed by HSE.

368100

Thats mad. Theres lots of people in nursing homes that are mentally fit and mobile but for some reason or another they cant live by themselves.

Basically by the HSE taking so much, its limiting any activity outside the home so people are stuck there to see out their days with little or no exposure to outside world.

John6008

I honestly think they gear everything towards selling your family home . It’s crazy you work your whole life to end up being screwed

NIMAN

John6008 wrote: »

I honestly think they gear everything towards selling your family home . It’s crazy you work your whole life to end up being screwed

Happens in most countries I'm afraid. Way of the world.
Might be facing it in my own family in the not too distant future.

But I suppose is it fair to expect the taxpayer to look after elderly parents at €1500 per week when they have their own assets to pay for it? Thats another argument I suppose.

Mrs OBumble

John6008 wrote: »

I honestly think they gear everything towards selling your family home . It’s crazy you work your whole life to end up being screwed

Screwed? Rubbish.

You work to prpvide for yourself for the rest of your life. Your assets are used to provide for your end of life care. Nanny state picks up the tab only when you cannot afford it any more.

The only people unhappy with this are the grasping kids who want to inherit rather than work for themselves.

ANXIOUS

368100 wrote: »

Thats mad. Theres lots of people in nursing homes that are mentally fit and mobile but for some reason or another they cant live by themselves.

Basically by the HSE taking so much, its limiting any activity outside the home so people are stuck there to see out their days with little or no exposure to outside world.

Nail on the head here. A lot of people that don't need to be in a nursing home but with family not willing g to support like they would've done in yester year they end up in a home.

Wesser

If you think you are being screwed then pay the 1500e a week to fund the nursing home.

anewme

Just been through it with my Dad.

When I sent the form in saying no assets ,they sent it back to me.

Sent it back with cover letter more or less saying what part of no assets do you not understand.

He pays 80% of his pension and was passed by the scheme in a couple of weeks. There’s 20 or so a week left over so we buy him toiletries newspapers out of that. Any clothes, shoes etc we have to buy out of our own money. When he passes away I’ll probably have to pay for the funeral myself.

Friend in work was going through it as well, house valuations from x date etc lots of paperwork. Her Dad was in the worst position, not rich but not poor. Most of us here fall into that bracket. I know I do.

For me, I’ve learnt something from the process.

The balance between living and saving.

Take that extra holiday, buy the shoes don’t squirrel it all away or fall for the sales talk of pumping it all into a pension.

Walk up that mountain when you can, there will come a time you can’t.

Enjoy life.

Look after yourself John, it’s tough emotionally when this happens to a parent.

ANXIOUS

anewme wrote: »

Just been through it with my Dad.

When I sent the form in saying no assets ,they sent it back to me.

Sent it back with cover letter more or less saying what part of no assets do you not understand.

He pays 80% of his pension and was passed by the scheme in a couple of weeks. There’s 20 or so a week left over so we buy him toiletries newspapers out of that. Any clothes, shoes etc we have to buy out of our own money. When he passes away I’ll probably have to pay for the funeral myself.

Friend in work was going through it as well, house valuations from x date etc lots of paperwork. Her Dad was in the worst position, not rich but not poor. Most of us here fall into that bracket. I know I do.

For me, I’ve learnt something from the process.

The balance between living and saving.

Take that extra holiday, buy the shoes don’t squirrel it all away or fall for the sales talk of pumping it all into a pension.

Walk up that mountain when you can, there will come a time you can’t.

Enjoy life.

Look after yourself John, it’s tough emotionally when this happens to a parent.

Is that 80% of his private pension or the state pension?

So if you've no assets. Ie no house, no savings and no private pension from your years of work all you have to pay is €194.64 if you are on the maximum con state pension and your family don't have to top this up in anyway?

anewme

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Is that 80% of his private pension or the state pension?

So if you've no assets. Ie no house, no savings and no private pension from your years of work all you have to pay is €194.64 if you are on the maximum con state pension and your family don't have to top this up in anyway?

State pension.

Yep that’s right.

Why would the family have to top it up?

ANXIOUS

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Nail on the head here. A lot of people that don't need to be in a nursing home but with family not willing g to support like they would've done in yester year they end up in a home.

And the family still want to keep hold of any property owned by their parent. Can’t have it both ways.

ANXIOUS

anewme wrote: »

State pension.

Yep that’s right.

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

Does the person get to select the nursing home that they want?

anewme

ANXIOUS wrote: »

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

Does the person get to select the nursing home that they want?

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

scooby77

ANXIOUS wrote: »

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

Does the person get to select the nursing home that they want?

Except that any assets disposed of in last five years can be chased...and who plans 5 years ahead to be in a nursing home?

anewme

Sorry and the last question on selecting a home, you are given a list of places(public and private) that accept fair deal.

Accepting it is one thing, but getting places are another. There is an extreme shortage of places in Dublin so someone who lived there all their life may end up in Kildare, Wicklow etc.

iamwhoiam

anewme wrote: »

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

There are definitely some positives in a care home for some . A member of my family went from being alone in a big house , not sleeping due to fear , sitting for hours and hours doing nothing , struggling with hygiene and her diet
She went into a home with company , activities , help with hygiene , her food beautifully cooked , she felt safe and warm and happy .

Squatter

ANXIOUS wrote: »

God, that seems like a sweet deal. Surely everyone is giving away as many assets as possible, as it makes no sense to have any if the taxpayers will cover the burden.

I understand that the HSE's means assessors can go back for up to five years to check any significant gifts or other 'interesting' disposals of cash or other assets.

They weren't born yesterday!

Edit - as Scooby has just posted.

Wesser

anewme wrote: »

Just been through it with my Dad.

When I sent the form in saying no assets ,they sent it back to me.

Sent it back with cover letter more or less saying what part of no assets do you not understand.

He pays 80% of his pension and was passed by the scheme in a couple of weeks. There’s 20 or so a week left over so we buy him toiletries newspapers out of that. Any clothes, shoes etc we have to buy out of our own money. When he passes away I’ll probably have to pay for the funeral myself.

Friend in work was going through it as well, house valuations from x date etc lots of paperwork. Her Dad was in the worst position, not rich but not poor. Most of us here fall into that bracket. I know I do.

For me, I’ve learnt something from the process.

The balance between living and saving.

Take that extra holiday, buy the shoes don’t squirrel it all away or fall for the sales talk of pumping it all into a pension.

Walk up that mountain when you can, there will come a time you can’t.

Enjoy life.

Look after yourself John, it’s tough emotionally when this happens to a parent.

If 80 % of his pension goes to the NH and he has 20 e left then he is paying 80 e a week for a product worth 1500 a week.
Incredible discount and yes you are very lucky that you or a family member dont have to personally contribute to your father's care.
At the moment this is sustainable but as we have an increasingly aging population with more and more people needing care this level of subsidy will become impossible and the taxpayer and the service user themselves will have to pay more and more. We will look back on the days where we ONLY had tok pay 22 % of your property towards the costs and think how lucky we were.

anewme

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There are definitely some positives in a care home from some . A member of my family went from being alone in a big house , not sleeping due to fear , sitting for hours and hours doing nothing , struggling with hygiene and her diet
She went into a home with company , activities , help with hygiene , her food beautifully cooked , she felt safe and warm and happy .

Apologies.

Of course it is better in a lot of cases.

I’m talking more about facing the fact that at the end of your days you end up in a care home and even specifically in my own case, where my Dad has dementia and it’s very sad to see.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

If 80 % of his pension goes to the NH and he has 20 e left then he is paying 80 e a week for a product worth 1500 a week.
Incredible discount and yes you are very lucky that you or a family member dont have to personally contribute to your father's care.
At the moment this is sustainable but as we have an increasingly aging population with more and more people needing care this level of subsidy will become impossible and the taxpayer and the service user themselves will have to pay more and more. We will look back on the days where we ONLY had tok pay 22 % of your property towards the costs and think how lucky we were.

Why am I lucky that I don’t have to pay for my Dads care.?

Children are not responsible for their parents.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Why am I lucky that I don’t have to pay for my Dads care.?

Children are not responsible for their parents.

Legally, no. Morally, yes.

If they have assets, isn't it only right that they are used to care for them when they're no longer able to do so for themselves?

Wesser

If there was no fair deal then who would pay the NH?

If the decision was made that he needed a nursing home, and you were totally on board with that decision, and of a very strong mind that it was unsafe for him to be at home and worried for him to be at home alone and you really wanted him in a nursing home..... and there was no fair deal ....then who would pay for it?

Why wouldn t you in theory pay for things your parents need? They paid for your needs for years . I pay for things my parents need and want regularly .

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

Legally, no. Morally, yes.

If they have assets, isn't it only right that they are used to care for them when they're no longer able to do so for themselves?

Sorry not sure what you mean.

are you saying children’s assets should be used to pay for their parents care.

That’s not right legally or morally.

shar01

Just be aware not everything is covered by the Fair Deal Scheme. Some medications are not on the medical card and there's usually a contribution towards entertainment and activities.

We were lucky my grandmother had a little bit of savings that took care of expenses not covered by Fair Deal but those savings were diminishing and eventually we'd have to make up the shortfall.

Nermal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Legally, no. Morally, yes.

If they have assets, isn't it only right that they are used to care for them when they're no longer able to do so for themselves?

It's a disincentive to saving. Everyone should pay the same.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Sorry not sure what you mean.

are you saying children’s assets should be used to pay for their parents care.

That’s not right legally or morally.

The parents own assets should be used by themselves to cover their nursing home care.

You said "Children are not responsible for their parents.". I say that is right legally, but morally wrong. Why should the child expect to get the parents assets rather than use them to care for the parent?

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

If there was no fair deal then who would pay the NH?

If the decision was made that he needed a nursing home, and you were totally on board with that decision, and of a very strong mind that it was unsafe for him to be at home and worried for him to be at home alone and you really wanted him in a nursing home..... and there was no fair deal ....then who would pay for it?

Why wouldn t you in theory pay for things your parents need? They paid for your needs for years . I pay for things my parents need and want regularly .

Sorry my Dad has been estranged from the family for over 35 years due to personal circumstances.

So he didn’t actually pay for any of my needs at all, I paid for my own.

The decision was made by a hospital that he needs full time medical care.

He is a actually a ward of the state.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

The parents own assets should be used by themselves to cover their nursing home care.

You said "Children are not responsible for their parents.". I say that is right legally, but morally wrong. Why should the child expect to get the parents assets rather than use them to care for the parent?

The person is saying that I personally should pay for my Dads care, out of my own assets not my Dads, as he has none, ie, I should sell my house to pay for my Dads care.

Not right, morally or legally in my opinion and won’t be happening.

ANXIOUS

anewme wrote: »

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

You're right it very was poorly phrased. It's a light in a very dark time. Estate planning should be for everyone, even simple things like the small gift excemption should be used.

Wesser

anewme wrote: »

Wesser wrote: »

If there was no fair deal then who would pay the NH?

If the decision was made that he needed a nursing home, and you were totally on board with that decision, and of a very strong mind that it was unsafe for him to be at home and worried for him to be at home alone and you really wanted him in a nursing home..... and there was no fair deal ....then who would pay for it?

Why wouldn t you in theory pay for things your parents need? They paid for your needs for years . I pay for things my parents need and want regularly .

Sorry my Dad has been estranged from the family for over 35 years due to personal circumstances.

So he didn’t actually pay for any of my needs at all, I paid for my own.

The decision was made by a hospital that he needs full time medical care.

He is a actually a ward of the state.

Ok. But most of the time, parents pay for the children's needs . For example whe n they are babies they pay for them and rear them and care for them etc etc. So maybe your case is different
My point is that it's still a really really good deal.
In the vast majority of cases children are keen to meet their parents needs as they get older. I'm.nkt saying that this isn't the case with you.
My.point is that in the absence of fair deal, NH costs would be unsurrmontable to the ordinary man and it is a very genourous deal which will not exist in its current form in the future.

Yes a parent should use their own assetts to pay for their own care. It belongs to the parent not the child.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

The person is saying that I personally should pay for my Dads care, out of my own assets not my Dads, as he has none, ie, I should sell my house to pay for my Dads care.

Not right, morally or legally in my opinion and won’t be happening

I think you're misunderstanding the post. No one is saying that your assets should be used, but your parents own - IF they have any.
The point on a child being morally responsible is a personal opinion. I've been extremely lucky to have had a great relationship with both my parents and wouldn't have begrudged them a cent of my money or a minute of my time.

Masala

anewme wrote: »

There’s nothing sweet about having to go into a care home.

I’ve come back from visiting it yesterday and can assure you of that.

When you are submitting the paperwork, they go back a minimum of 8 years and ask for paperwork for all assets and this is assessed and scrutinised. You also submit all bank accounts etc.

That is to stop people trying to pass on assets if they suddenly become ill.

The reality is that most people won’t think about going into a care home until it is on top of them. It’s not something people think about or deal with until faced with.

I usually find the only people with proper estate planning are the very rich.

Is it gone out to 8 years??? I thought it was 3.

ANXIOUS

scooby77 wrote: »

Except that any assets disposed of in last five years can be chased...and who plans 5 years ahead to be in a nursing home?

Everyone should plan as far as possible in the future and expect likely outcomes. Granted there are always cases where it can't be foreseen.

ANXIOUS

Masala wrote: »

Is it gone out to 8 years??? I thought it was 3.

I've just read it's 5

Wesser

We are not saying that your assets should be used.
We are saying that fair deal is an excellent deal!
Otherwise... how would your father's care be paid for!!!??

anewme

Masala wrote: »

Is it gone out to 8 years??? I thought it was 3.

No, someone else said 5, so that may be right.

Was sure it was eight.

Must check the osoerwirk and will update.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you're misunderstanding the post. No one is saying that your assets should be used, but your parents own - IF they have any.
The point on a child being morally responsible is a personal opinion. I've been extremely lucky to have had a great relationship with both my parents and wouldn't have begrudged them a cent of my money or a minute of my time.

Wesser wrote: »

If 80 % of his pension goes to the NH and he has 20 e left then he is paying 80 e a week for a product worth 1500 a week.
Incredible discount and yes you are very lucky that you or a family member dont have to personally contribute to your father's care.
At the moment this is sustainable but as we have an increasingly aging population with more and more people needing care this level of subsidy will become impossible and the taxpayer and the service user themselves will have to pay more and more. We will look back on the days where we ONLY had tok pay 22 % of your property towards the costs and think how lucky we were.

Sorry I’m not misunderstanding the post.

He clearly states that I am lucky that I or a family member don’t have to contribute personally.

That’s what it says.

Nermal

Wesser wrote: »

We are not saying that your assets should be used.
We are saying that fair deal is an excellent deal!
Otherwise... how would your father's care be paid for!!!??

It should be paid for out of general taxation. Taking it from assets disincentives saving for retirement, which we want to encourage.

Masala

My dad paid taxes from the age of 15 to 65 and paid for his house out of his nett pay.

So... he in effect paid into the Social Welgare system towards all the people who neede governments help. Now it is his turn to be helped... there is an onus on the government to help him. To take his assets as well is unfair.

In my mams case now... we looking at transferring her house(own family home for 50 years) into the names of her 4 sons and we leave her live there rent free for rest of her life. No tax implications and no taxman getting 22%

Theres info here on Fair Deal scheme. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

"Income and assets
Income includes any earnings, pension income, social welfare benefits or allowances, rental income, income from holding an office or directorship, income from fees, commissions, dividends or interest, or any income which you have deprived yourself of in the 5 years leading up to your application.

An asset is any material property or wealth, including property or wealth outside of the State. Assets are divided into two distinct categories, namely cash assets and relevant assets.

Cash assets include savings, stocks, shares and securities. Relevant assets include all forms of property other than cash assets, for example a person’s principal residence or land. In both cases, the assessment will also look at assets that you have deprived yourself of since applying for State support or in the 5 years before the application.

The assessment will not take into account the income of other relatives such as your children.

Your contribution to care

Having looked at your income and assets, the Financial Assessment will work out your contribution to care. You will contribute:

80% of your income (less deductions below) and
7.5% of the value of any assets per annum (5% if the application was made before 25 July 2013)
However, the first €36,000 of your assets, or €72,000 for a couple, will not be counted at all in the Financial Assessment.

Where your assets include land and property, the 7.5% contribution based on such assets may be deferred and paid to Revenue after your death. This is known as the Nursing Home Loan. You can read more about the repayment of the Nursing Home Loan in the FAQs on the Nursing Homes Support Scheme (pdf).

Your principal residence will only be included in the financial assessment for the first 3 years of your time in care. This is known as the 22.5% or ‘three-year cap' (the cap is 15% for applications made before 25 July 2013). It means that you will pay a 7.5% contribution based on your principal residence for a maximum of 3 years regardless of the length of time you spend in nursing home care."

Kristopherus

anewme wrote: »

No, someone else said 5, so that may be right.

Was sure it was eight.

Must check the osoerwirk and will update.

All the info you need is here. The scheme is officially known as the Nursing Home Support Scheme. Just be aware that it's a long & hefty read.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you're misunderstanding the post. No one is saying that your assets should be used, but your parents own - IF they have any.
The point on a child being morally responsible is a personal opinion. I've been extremely lucky to have had a great relationship with both my parents and wouldn't have begrudged them a cent of my money or a minute of my time.

There’s not many children that could afford pay 1500 net a week for their parent well as paying their own mortgage, and running their own lives and expenses.

Unfortunately I’m not quite in that earnings bracket.so fair play to you.

Best I can do is a few quid clothes and bits and bobs not covered and a couple of visits when I finish work. I don’t begrudge either, wouldn’t change anything about my life either, it’s made me who I am.

Wesser

Nermal wrote: »

Wesser wrote: »

We are not saying that your assets should be used.
We are saying that fair deal is an excellent deal!
Otherwise... how would your father's care be paid for!!!??

It should be paid for out of general taxation. Taking it from assets disincentives saving for retirement, which we want to encourage.

Fair deal IS general taxation!!!!
Just packaged under another name.
Is this man's case general taxation is paying 1420 e a week and the patient is paying 80e.

anewme

Masala wrote: »

My dad paid taxes from the age of 15 to 65 and paid for his house out of his nett pay.

So... he in effect paid into the Social Welgare system towards all the people who neede governments help. Now it is his turn to be helped... there is an onus on the government to help him. To take his assets as well is unfair.

In my mams case now... we looking at transferring her house(own family home for 50 years) into the names of her 4 sons and we leave her live there rent free for rest of her life. No tax implications and no taxman getting 22%

I was just going to say that.

That’s a very fair point.

I pay 3k a month tax to the welfare state, reckon I’ve put in over a million so far in tax, my Dad was not a high earner so he would not have paid that much, but still a considerable amount.

Wesser

Masala wrote: »

My dad paid taxes from the age of 15 to 65 and paid for his house out of his nett pay.

So... he in effect paid into the Social Welgare system towards all the people who neede governments help. Now it is his turn to be helped... there is an onus on the government to help him. To take his assets as well is unfair.

In my mams case now... we looking at transferring her house(own family home for 50 years) into the names of her 4 sons and we leave her live there rent free for rest of her life. No tax implications and no taxman getting 22%

If he is going into long term care then he has no further need for the assert in its current form and the equity in the assert should be used to provide for his needs e.g. safety etc.
The only people who loose out are those who are disinherited by 22 % but mostly they are satisfied by the knowledge that their father is well looked after and they dint have to pay 1500 a week for same.

anewme

Wesser wrote: »

Fair deal IS general taxation!!!!
Just packaged under another name.
Is this man's case general taxation is paying 1420 e a week and the patient is paying 80e.

My Dad paid his taxes all his life and I’ve contributed probably paid over a million.

My mum worked full time too so she’s paid her tax.

So our family have paid more than enough through tax to have a credit built up.

Not sure where you are getting 80 a week either. It’s 80% of his pension plus other bits - it works out at 194 a week paid. There 20 quid left out of his pension. The care cost is 1k a week.

Are you also proposing that poor people who get sick should not have medical attention?

elperello

Fair Deal is a selective inheritance tax.

If your parent is healthy up until they pass away you inherit their entire estate.
If they are in a nursing home for three years 22.5% of the property value and 22.5% of the cash assets are deducted.
Take as an example a person with €200,000 property and €100,000 cash the HSE take €67,500 from the inheritance.
In the case of the healthy parent there is no deduction from the inheritance.

Bubbaclaus

anewme wrote: »

My Dad paid his taxes all his life and I’ve contributed probably paid over a million.

My mum worked full time too so she’s paid her tax.

So our family have paid more than enough through tax to have a credit built up.

Not sure where you are getting 80 a week either. It’s 80% of his pension plus other bits - it works out at 194 a week paid. There 20 quid left out of his pension. The care cost is 1k a week.

Are you also proposing that poor people who get sick should not have medical attention?

Just jumping in to the thread to say you are all over the place here and completely misunderstanding other posts.

anewme

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Just jumping in to the thread to say you are all over the place here and completely misunderstanding other posts.

No I’m not misunderstanding anything.

The person clearly said that I am lucky that I or my family dont have to contribute personally.

My response is that children are not responsible for their parents.

Nothing all over the place about that.

There’s no misunderstanding there whatsoever.