Advice on getting quotes for restoration

metricspaces

I have a 1988 Toyota Starlet EP71 that has a fair bit of rust and I am considering getting it completely restored. I am looking for advice on what I should check for when getting quotes.

Some of the things I have thought of so far, but any suggestions from people with experience of restores would be great!

• Are rusted panels removed completely, or corrosion is just cut back to good metal and plates welded in
• Is engine taken out
• Is the complete car resprayed, or just the outside
• Is car sealed underneath afterwards
• How are panels treated before being resprayed (sandblasted, anti-corrosion paint applied)
• How many years warranty on rust reappearing

The interior of the car is perfect, and it is just restoring the body that I had thought of. But should I also be looking at other things like:

• Engine cleaned up
• Powder coating components

w124man

Are rusted panels removed completely, or corrosion is just cut back to good metal and plates welded in


Depends on the panel and how much money you have!


Is engine taken out


If it needs to be to do work around it


Is the complete car resprayed, or just the outside


Depends on the work being done and how much money you have.


Is car sealed underneath afterwards


Yes if you want it undersealed and you have the money


How are panels treated before being resprayed (sandblasted, anti-corrosion paint applied)


Depends on the panel and the work being done. As for the paint used, it depends on the size of your wallet.


How many years warranty on rust reappearing


You are having a laugh aren't you?


What's your budget? Cheap jobs are just that, cheap. Paint is expensive and quality paint jobs cost money. Panels are expensive and so is labour so be prepared.

metricspaces

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I wasn't clear. It wasn't that I was looking for answer on here to those questions. I've never gotten a car reconditioned so I'm wondering what I should expect to be done so I can ask a garage that quotes me if it includes these things.

I understand it depends on how much you're willing to spends. I'm wondering what's should be done for the basic minimum. And then what options are if i want to spend more.

No. Not having a laugh about the warranty. One garage I got a quote from already told me the number of years warranty they would cover on rust reappearing.

kadman

Restorations are expensive procedures , and many a mans wallet failed to recover

and was deemed to be terminal way before the finish line.

Spend plenty of time researching from clubs ect, as to what the likely outcome

would be on a venture. Rare cars may mean rarity of panels, which means further

open wallet surgery.

metricspaces

Thanks. Yes that makes sense to research as much as possible before diving in. If anyone has any pointers on my questions above that would be helpful.

I'm hoping there are a few people on here who restore cars or have gotten their car restored and can give me some guidance.

kadman

Check your available budget, against what is available fully restored.

You might buy cheaper than what it costs to have one restored.

Panels could run into 1000's before any rust has been cut out. Some

marques are just a money pit. And if you have to ask how expensive it is

to get a panel handmade, then you are probably going to faint when you are given the price.

Resto work is expensive, and then some.

kadman

metricspaces wrote: »

I have a 1988 Toyota Starlet EP71 that has a fair bit of rust and I am considering getting it completely restored. I am looking for advice on what I should check for when getting quotes.

Some of the things I have thought of so far, but any suggestions from people with experience of restores would be great!

[*]Are rusted panels removed completely, or corrosion is just cut back to good metal and plates welded in.

Either, depends on budget. Whether you use a full panel, or a piece of one, you are still paying for a full panel.

[*]Is engine taken out

Probably will, to get proper access, for any fabwork, and rust prevention treatment in sections.

[*]Is the complete car resprayed, or just the outside

depends on your needs and budget.

[*]Is car sealed underneath afterwards.

Should be stripped, inspected and resealed. Depends on budget.


[*]How are panels treated before being resprayed (sandblasted, anti-corrosion paint applied)

List of rustproofing materials is too long, but again most of this depends on how deep your pockets are, and the overall brief.

[*]How many years warranty on rust reappearing

Until you get as far as the gate. You are never, ever going to get a claim here, at all.




The interior of the car is perfect, and it is just restoring the body that I had thought of. But should I also be looking at other things like:

• Engine cleaned up
• Powder coating components

Basically what you have already been told. Its a damn expensive thing to pay for.

metricspaces

Thanks. I think if I'm going to the effort/expense of refurb then it makes no sense to leave engine in I think?

Quotes I'm getting are 3-4k so far. They cover
* Engine out, doors off, interior out
* Cut out any corrosion and weld in pieces (there's only 6 bad spots)
* Apply anti-corrosion paint (no idea what kind)
* Full respray

The car still has factory seal underneath and it looks all good when I had it up on ramp. What would be the costs of stripping away the seal and reapplying?

Regards powder coating. Where would you start and what would be priority? I'm thinking engine & wheel hubs to start as they're visible...but what next?

kadman

Sounds way too cheap.

You need to see at least 3 previous cars done, and talk to the owners.

"only 6 bad spots"........... and thats with the car untouched.

Things tend to escalate quick, when bits are stripped

metricspaces

What would you expect to pay for a decent job? (Engine out, cut out rust, weld, full respray)

Just to add. The quotes of 3-4k were based on leaving the car with the garage for potentially a few months and they'd work on it basically on any down time they had.

kadman

As pointed out by a previous poster, decent resprays are a big lump of the budget.

And you seem to be getting a respray, plus a lot of other work for small enough money.

I,m not saying that its wrong. I,m saying its a lot cheaper than I,ve heard of.

Like I say, do the research and see other work done. Dont commit until you,ve seen

previous work.

EPAndlee

Restoring my 88 starlet at the moment. Non rusty panels next to impossible to find. If yours is an ep71 then even harder to find as there's only about 14 or 15 left in the country I heard. Really depends on the quality of work your getting done but would have thought 5k would cover a good standard of work

_ptashek_

I'm assuming you're really committed to a full resto. Not a so called "botch job resto" - i.e. a few patches welded in, smothered with zinc primer and stone chip guard.

Some practical advice from own experience, and knowing closely a guy who's been doing this for over 30 years:

Start with defining exactly what you want done. List everything you can think of. Group the work i.e. body work, paint, interior, suspension, engine, gearbox etc. Then list in order of priority, with the things that you're OK not having done being last on the list. Do you want old parts rebuilt, or new ones installed? If new - OEM, or aftermarket? Can you do some of the work yourself?

Make sure you know your budget to the cent, and add 25% to it as safety buffer.
Accept the fact that a properly done full resto on anything but a top-tier classic will cost far more than the car is worth.

Aside from that, no respectable shop will give you an exact restoration quote on paint and body work. It's just impossible without dismantling the car to pieces and stripping it to bare metal.

I've seen such projects fly past the 3500 man-hour mark without warning... (just recently, a 230SL Pagoda @ 3850, and needing another 1000, at least, to be finished to concourse level). My own car took 2250 man-hours over 26 months, 380 of those hours was paint alone (from bare metal to polished paint work).

This just isn't something you can get done properly for 3-4k. Ever.

GavFitz

I have done a fair few restorations some finished some in progress, I strip the cars myself, windows, deals panels etc by myself or with the bodyshop guys and the paint and repair alone comes in about €3500 on average. (That's a Dublin shop, I believe its cheaper outside Dublin but I have no proof of that!)

metricspaces

_ptashek_ wrote: »

I'm assuming you're really committed to a full resto. Not a so called "botch job resto" - i.e. a few patches welded in, smothered with zinc primer and stone chip guard.

Some practical advice from own experience, and knowing closely a guy who's been doing this for over 30 years:

Start with defining exactly what you want done. List everything you can think of. Group the work i.e. body work, paint, interior, suspension, engine, gearbox etc. Then list in order of priority, with the things that you're OK not having done being last on the list. Do you want old parts rebuilt, or new ones installed? If new - OEM, or aftermarket? Can you do some of the work yourself?

Make sure you know your budget to the cent, and add 25% to it as safety buffer.
Accept the fact that a properly done full resto on anything but a top-tier classic will cost far more than the car is worth.

Aside from that, no respectable shop will give you an exact restoration quote on paint and body work. It's just impossible without dismantling the car to pieces and stripping it to bare metal.

I've seen such projects fly past the 3500 man-hour mark without warning... (just recently, a 230SL Pagoda @ 3850, and needing another 1000, at least, to be finished to concourse level). My own car took 2250 man-hours over 26 months, 380 of those hours was paint alone (from bare metal to polished paint work).

This just isn't something you can get done properly for 3-4k. Ever.

Thanks for the detailed reply! Yes, I definitely don't want a cheap "botch" job.

Just to give some more info. This car is driven every week and it has passed the NCT every year. This year it failed on 5 rust issues on primary structure. Mechanically the car is sound - so I don't need any parts rebuilt.

I've already replaced lots of the parts anyhow (head gasket, radiator, master brake cylinder, suspension, brakes).

If I was getting work done on parts, it would be just to make them look nice (engine\head cover itself is a bit rusted, wheel hubs rusted).

Really it is just the body of the car that needs addressing. With this in mind, is 3-4k really that low?

metricspaces

GavFitz wrote: »

I have done a fair few restorations some finished some in progress, I strip the cars myself, windows, deals panels etc by myself or with the bodyshop guys and the paint and repair alone comes in about €3500 on average. (That's a Dublin shop, I believe its cheaper outside Dublin but I have no proof of that!)

Thanks! So my quotes of 3.4k sound fair based on what you say? The only difference is you strip the car yourself, whereas I'll get the garage to do it?

kadman

I,m currently working on my own resto on this car.
It looks like its just been finished, looks great in the pic. Its not,
its before, and the bottom 12" is red rotten, and had to be replaced with new metal, but not readily available.

[IMG][/img]

The window seals alone for front , back and 2 sides rear without the doors cost me 400 euro. Plus the cellulose, because I,m not equipped to spray 2 pack isocyanates was in the region of another 300 euro.

Thats why I am amazed at your low quote for 3-4k.



At the outset car may appear brilliant, but when the stripping starts, thats another thing.

As already pointed out, its easy to pass what the car is really worth. And if you have structural repair issues you need to know that the place doing your work is a SQI and his work will pass the nct. Thats why you need to see previous work, and chat with customers. If your man is genuine, then this wont be a problem.

metricspaces

Nice car! Yes the seals are not something I considered. If they are currently good can you take them off and put them back on again? Or once you take off it's not possible to get them back on?

The garages I've gone to so far for quotes don't specialise in restorations. So I think I'll visit a few that specialise in this area. Maybe the quotes will be higher there (and possibly for a good reason as you are pointing out!).

_ptashek_

metricspaces wrote: »

Really it is just the body of the car that needs addressing. With this in mind, is 3-4k really that low?

Even just for body work and paint, 4k ist extremely low in my opinion. You wouldn't get a quality job for that money even in Eastern Europe where the labour rate is 4-5x lower than in Ireland.

Once that underseal is stripped, you're bound to see some extra "monsters" and costs will escalate. PM me and I can share some pics from my own car, it'll nicely demonstrate the point

It may be just better doing a proper fix to the visible rust and leaving it at that. Each to their own as they say, but a Starlet may not be worth the effort and expense.

Dades

Definitely seek testimonials from the previous customers of any quoter you consider.

My neighbour's brother had some crowd turn his W123 to shít over the course of a few months "restoration".
It'll never be the same again. The shutlines... paint job... seals... all botched.

kadman

metricspaces wrote: »

Nice car! Yes the seals are not something I considered. If they are currently good can you take them off and put them back on again? Or once you take off it's not possible to get them back on?

The garages I've gone to so far for quotes don't specialise in restorations. So I think I'll visit a few that specialise in this area. Maybe the quotes will be higher there (and possibly for a good reason as you are pointing out!).

It was a beautiful looking car in the previous picture,

But this is what was lurking beneath the back passenger wing. And no panels were available.

[IMG][/img]

I had to make this repair, and 15 panels underneath you cant see,



on this corner only.

So you dont really know what needs extensive repair, until the stripping starts.

I just popped up these pics to show dont judge the book by the cover.

As has been suggested, maybe just deal with the nct requirements at the moment. And then take a long hard look at the resto costs.

Your resto man wont know whats there until he starts digging, and then your price go up dramatically.

GavFitz

You'll get the paint done for €3500, I'm on my third resto in the last 4 years, testimonials and shop around. Duff motors painted a sierra for a friend of mine for €3600 recently, did a decent job too.

Again, that's without them having to strip it, the car arrived to them stripped, windows out etc.

Neilw

GavFitz wrote: »

You'll get the paint done for €3500, I'm on my third resto in the last 4 years, testimonials and shop around. Duff motors painted a sierra for a friend of mine for €3600 recently, did a decent job too.

Again, that's without them having to strip it, the car arrived to them stripped, windows out etc.

Very same as I did, I stripped the car completely and left it on for paint then.
Paid a similar price too, I reassembled the car after it was painted.

My car didn't need any significant metalwork but you could easily rack up the same amount again in panels and labour.

JohnBoy26

Where is the rust?

metricspaces

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Where is the rust?

Three door sills. In the corner where the door meets the body. It's isolated to a hole of about 2cm diameter.

Panel at back bumper. Isolated to a straight line of about 1cm x 8cm.

Under drivers footwell (no idea how bad until underseal comes off)

kadman

Quote might make sense now, if its only fitting 2 new cills, and bumper mounts.

metricspaces

Theres surface rust in other places and corrosion. For example the lip inside the wheel arches has corrosion, a few mm.

I fotgot to mention too that the corner of one door is corroded with a 2cm diameter hole and bubbling around it. But this is secondary struture.

metricspaces

I'll get some more quotes. But I'm a bit lost as to what to do.

I could just get welds done to pass NCT. Will be just a few hundred to fix. But I'll end up doing this every year or two if i keep the car. Plus it's not like i can get just the welds sprayed to blend in with 30yr old paint work so it'll eventually look like a patchwork quilt.

On the positive I'll not be spending 3-4k and it'll just be a jammer so i won't care about it getting damaged.

I could go for full refurb. But there's a risk the price may escalate beyond 3-4k and then there's other costs like if i want to sand blast and powder coat wheel hub & engine. Then once it's perfect i won't want to park it anywhere near another car lol

I know you'll rarely make the money back that you put into a refurb and it's not why I'm doing it, the car has sentimental value. But if the car was 100% it would be worth in the 3-4k bracket and price will only rise going forward. So it may not be a bad investment (if done properly)?

kadman

Rust is in no way sentimental.

Unless you cut it all out, it just keeps giving........more,

year after year. Sentimental values cost, so be careful.

metricspaces

kadman wrote: »

Unless you cut it all out, it just keeps giving........more,.

Yes. So I'd need to be sure any refurb is a 100% good job with all rust cut out and then the panels prepared & treated properly (I've no real idea what this entails).

If I paid 4k and had rust appearing a few years later that would not be a good 4k spent.

If i decide to go the full refurb route i guess all i can do is find a good garage that has happy customers who got refurbs a few years back.

unkel

metricspaces wrote: »

I have a 1988 Toyota Starlet EP71 that has a fair bit of rust and I am considering getting it completely restored.

I take it the car has sentimental value? If not, restoring it is just money down the drain for a car that will never have any value reflecting the money you spend on it.

I had an EP71 myself, a 1.3, NCTd and running very well and I gave it away for free to a nice young gentleman member of the travelling community who asked about it a few times

metricspaces

unkel wrote: »

metricspaces wrote: »

I have a 1988 Toyota Starlet EP71 that has a fair bit of rust and I am considering getting it completely restored.

I take it the car has sentimental value? If not, restoring it is just money down the drain for a car that will never have any value reflecting the money you spend on it.

Yes the car has sentimental value. However, I don't think it would be money down the drain. Quotes I'm getting are close to 4k. One of these cars in perfect condition sell for 3-4k.

An initial investment of 4k would be recoverable if I sold it. Plus the value of the car is only going to increase as the years pass.

kadman

There are very few classic cars that increase in value over the years,
that would be the exception rather than the norm.

Costs of restoring and running a classic far outway any increases in the run of the mill classics.

There are probably a few classic cars that do increase in value, but I couldn,t afford THOSE cars
at the outset, unfortunately.

Good luck with your project.:)

Dades

You might get you money back if you spend 4k, although prevailing opinio is that is suspiciously cheap for a full resto including respray.

But a Starlet isn't a desirable car in the same way even an old Merc is. It will have it's admirers, but not many of which would consider actually buying it from you. I think you should consider what you want to spend on the basis of the joy you will get from the car, rather what you might recover down the line.

metricspaces

Dades wrote: »

I think you should consider what you want to spend on the basis of the joy you will get from the car, rather what you might recover down the line.

Definitely I agree. My goal is to keep the car going for as long as I can, not to make money from it.

Having said that, I think it's still fair to say it's not money down the drain. If I restore it and then decide to sell in a few years I'll get a significant proportion of the money back, the remainder is written off as the cost of enjoying the car fully restored for how ever number of years I keep it

Another angle that makes it sit "easier" to spend money refurbishing is if I bought a brand new car and sold it in 4 years time I'd lose more money than if I refurb my starlet and sell it in 4 years time.

kadman

Toyota Starlet 1988 mint condition 2650

https://www.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/toyota-starlet-ep70/18646532?campaign=3

Supposedly rust free, might make you think about future value of your resto

metricspaces

Yeah I've looked at quite a few. As we know the adverts don't always match up to reality. This is not a standard car either, it's been modified which takes away from the value from my perspective.

For example I've been looking at Renault 5 GT for last few years. You can pick up modified ones for a lot cheaper than mint originals.

For a completely standard car with all original parts and 100% rust free I'd say you'd be closer to 3-4k. Of course you need the right person who really wants it.

But for me it's not about making a profit, I know I never will. I was just saying previously it's not money down drain as I'll always get 3-4k back if I chose to sell.

Dades

metricspaces wrote: »

I was just saying previously it's not money down drain as I'll always get 3-4k back if I chose to sell.

Ehh, that lad is hoping to sell his rust-free mint Starlet for just over 2½ grand!

metricspaces

Dades wrote: »

metricspaces wrote: »

I was just saying previously it's not money down drain as I'll always get 3-4k back if I chose to sell.

Ehh, that lad is hoping to sell his rust-free mint Starlet for just over 2½ grand!

It's not a standard car, it has non original parts. Maybe it's rust free & mint, maybe it's not...who knows.

kadman

Sounds like you have your mind made up regardless of cost, and whats available out there
at the moment.

I hope you dont burned on this.

Good luck with it, and enjoy.:)

metricspaces

I'm still undecided to be honest. As the feeling here is that 3.5k is too low for a refurb I'm going to get some quotes/opinions from garages that specialise more in this area.

If anyone has any recommendations of places to get quotes from that would be great. Preferably around the Leinster area.

clio_16v

These Starlets have peaked in value in my opinion. I know quite a few lads into older Toyotas that have collections of them. I think 2500 is about the top end. Get the welding done and do a cheap job on it. Spend 1000 and enjoy it for a few years. Sell it for 1500 in time if you wanna change.

metricspaces

clio_16v wrote: »

These Starlets have peaked in value in my opinion. I know quite a few lads into older Toyotas that have collections of them. I think 2500 is about the top end. Get the welding done and do a cheap job on it. Spend 1000 and enjoy it for a few years. Sell it for 1500 in time if you wanna change.

Yeah, that's the other option I might go with. The drivers door is rotting at the bottom, it would be handier to get a second hand door and spray it. If anyone knows of any rust free ones knocking about that would be great ...nothing on adverts\donedeal.

clio_16v

metricspaces wrote: »

Yeah, that's the other option I might go with. The drivers door is rotting at the bottom, it would be handier to get a second hand door and spray it. If anyone knows of any rust free ones knocking about that would be great ...nothing on adverts\donedeal.

Throw up a list of parts that you need and ill suss out my contacts. They know what to charge now though as they're getting harder to source parts for

drunkmonkey

metricspaces wrote: »

I'm still undecided to be honest. As the feeling here is that 3.5k is too low for a refurb I'm going to get some quotes/opinions from garages that specialise more in this area.

If anyone has any recommendations of places to get quotes from that would be great. Preferably around the Leinster area.

Currently starting a restore, one quote of 4 to 4.5k, another quote of 10k. One is cutting out the rusty bits fixing up and full respray the other is taking the body off, soda pop blasting every bit of rust everywhere, we've agreed to relook at the job once the blasting is done when we know exactly what were dealing with.
I'll be 1k to 1.5k into the job before I know exactly what it's going to cost.
With the cheaper job your more or less guaranteed the rust is coming back as there's no way you'll get at it all by just cutting out bits here and there.

JCW

I was quoted 780e to fit two new sills + paint for an early 90's starlet

metricspaces

JCW wrote: »

I was quoted 780e to fit two new sills + paint for an early 90's starlet

How would they paint just the sills? It will never blend in with existing paint?

EPAndlee

metricspaces wrote: »

Yeah, that's the other option I might go with. The drivers door is rotting at the bottom, it would be handier to get a second hand door and spray it. If anyone knows of any rust free ones knocking about that would be great ...nothing on adverts\donedeal.

All those doors rot at the bottom and at the hinges, it's an absolute pain. It took me 2 years to find rust free doors. Rust free panels are gone very hard to find now.

metricspaces

EPAndlee wrote: »

All those doors rot at the bottom and at the hinges, it's an absolute pain. It took me 2 years to find rust free doors. Rust free panels are gone very hard to find now.

Yeah, I've had no luck finding the door unfortunately. Where did you get yours?

Someone suggested trying to get it from Japan?

EPAndlee

metricspaces wrote: »

How would they paint just the sills? It will never blend in with existing paint?

GT turbos have sideskirts and trim panels on the sides of the car so you'd just get away with painting just underneath those

EPAndlee

metricspaces wrote: »

Yeah, I've had no luck finding the door unfortunately. Where did you get yours?

Someone suggested trying to get it from Japan?

I seen a starlet for breaking and he said the doors were rust free so took the chance with trip down the country to view them. A door is a big panel to be shipping but you could try Japan,Malaysia or the Netherlands. That's where I see most EP71 parts for sale. There's a good few Facebook groups