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Interclub Competitions

  • 16-04-2018 10:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭ Bottle


    Could i ask a potentially sensitive question. If a club plays in an interclub competition but doesn't hand over the Golfnet "Cups and Shields Handicap Report" as implicitly laid out in the GUI Tournament Conditions Book the penalty for breach is disqualification. Would it be reasonable to pursue such a claim or would it be considered unsportsmanlike?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,565 ✭✭✭✭ Rikand


    The GUI should be following up on that sort of thing themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    Bottle wrote: »
    Could i ask a potentially sensitive question. If a club plays in an interclub competition but doesn't hand over the Golfnet "Cups and Shields Handicap Report" as implicitly laid out in the GUI Tournament Conditions Book the penalty for breach is disqualification. Would it be reasonable to pursue such a claim or would it be considered unsportsmanlike?

    I'm assuming the match has already been played and its the losing team who are considering this ? If so, purely IMO, its unsportsmanlike. Actually, no, its worse than that, much worse.

    Possibly, and I stress only possibly, if there's a reasonable suspicion and evidence of something dodgy going on, then it may be an option, BUT, any team looking to be awarded a match like that, regardless of the rights & wrongs of it................well, word will get out and a reputation gained.
    It's not something I'd do anyway.

    Rikand is right, its up to the GUI to ensure clubs comply with entry into their competitions. If they are ok with it, then that's the end of it. Its none of another club's business how/when/why the opposition entered a competition.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭ Exactly


    Russman wrote: »
    I'm assuming the match has already been played and its the losing team who are considering this ? If so, purely IMO, its unsportsmanlike. Actually, no, its worse than that, much worse.

    Possibly, and I stress only possibly, if there's a reasonable suspicion and evidence of something dodgy going on, then it may be an option, BUT, any team looking to be awarded a match like that, regardless of the rights & wrongs of it................well, word will get out and a reputation gained.
    It's not something I'd do anyway.

    Rikand is right, its up to the GUI to ensure clubs comply with entry into their competitions. If they are ok with it, then that's the end of it. Its none of another club's business how/when/why the opposition entered a competition.

    It's nothing to do with entry into the competitions.

    There is a report that should be published by each Club of their team for the day. It shows their lowest handicap from the previous year and also the number of counting competitions. This is generated on Golfnet quite easily.

    It should be available prior to any match but worse case scenario the Club should be asked to get someone to generate it while the matches are taking place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    Exactly wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with entry into the competitions.

    There is a report that should be published by each Club of their team for the day. It shows their lowest handicap from the previous year and also the number of counting competitions. This is generated on Golfnet quite easily.

    It should be available prior to any match but worse case scenario the Club should be asked to get someone to generate it while the matches are taking place.

    Ahh right, sorry, I thought it was some condition that I'd never heard of of entering the competition.
    So its just a report printed on the day that shows the qualifying handicaps etc etc of the team ?

    Regardless, and again, purely IMHO, I still think its beyond petty to be looking to win a match on those grounds. What if the club's printer was broken ?
    There must be more to this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭ Ronney


    Bottle wrote: »
    Could i ask a potentially sensitive question. If a club plays in an interclub competition but doesn't hand over the Golfnet "Cups and Shields Handicap Report" as implicitly laid out in the GUI Tournament Conditions Book the penalty for breach is disqualification. Would it be reasonable to pursue such a claim or would it be considered unsportsmanlike?


    Is there a suspicion of eligibility or are you looking to try get through on a technicality?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭ Bottle


    There is no suspicion that the opposing team wilfully cheated, however by not providing the official confirmation (for whatever reason) they are not abiding by the competition rules for some reason, and theoretically could have fielded an ineligible player.

    I think that is why the GUI stance on the same is so strongly worded within the Tournament Conditions document....


  • Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭ Ronney


    Bottle wrote: »
    There is no suspicion that the opposing team wilfully cheated, however by not providing the official confirmation (for whatever reason) they are not abiding by the competition rules for some reason, and theoretically could have fielded an ineligible player.

    I think that is why the GUI stance on the same is so strongly worded within the Tournament Conditions document....


    Never managed a team but played on plenty. I assume the practice would be for both captains to exchange this information when they first meet or on the first tee.

    What was there reply when your captain handed over yours?

    Were they away and simply forgot it?

    Was it a GUI Green Pennant comp or one of the Local type ones?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    I've managed a few over the years (but its been a few years since I did it) and this formal requirement is a new one on me tbh. I just had a read of the rules there and, in fairness its fairly explicit what needs to be done, although it does give a period of grace of one working day.

    Personally I still wouldn't be bringing it up (maybe that's just me). I might well remind the opposition team capt at the start of play that he needs to submit the form anyway, assuming he hadn't it with him at the start, but certainly once the match is over I'd be leaving it alone. Others may feel differently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭ Hoboo


    Last 3 years its been a requirement on any teams I played on. The first year a team we lost to had players out 4 and 5 shots less than the limit, they were subsequently DQ'd without our club making any complaint. Id have no problem pursuing it. But Id give the club the opportunity to furnish it with a gentle reminder you didn't receive a copy as required, before looking for a DQ. If all is above board then let it go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭ lowelife


    I'd say if this is post match, then the GUI will give a bye to the next round opponents rather than reinstate the losing team.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭ Hoboo


    We were reinstated


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭ elbagarihno


    Hoboo wrote: »
    We were reinstated

    "Irish Mixed Foursomes, GUI All Ireland Fourball, Barton Cup, Metropolitan Trophy, Provincial Towns

    The respective Captains of the two teams about to engage in a match shall interchange simultaneously the names of members of their teams in their order of play, together with the names of reserves, not less than 30 minutes before the start of the match. In addition, a copy of the “Cups & Shields Handicap Report” generated from Golfnet which provides evidence of the lowest handicap held and the number of qualifying scores for each member of the team, in the previous calendar year, must be exchanged with the team sheet between the team managers. If the report is not available on the day of the match, it must be forwarded to the opposing Team Captain and Branch Office within one working day. Failure to comply with this rule will lead to the disqualification of the team concerned."

    I guess it depends on the Competition you are talking about, but lets take Barton Cup as an example, the GUI are very clear in their Tournament Conditions Book - excerpt above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭ Ronney


    Hoboo wrote: »
    . The first year a team we lost to had players out 4 and 5 shots less than the limit,.

    Thats taking the Piss, I could understand a genuine mistake with one guy dropping briefly to .1 below the limit (Still a DQ) but 4/5 shots deserves a ban from interclub for the whole club for a period of time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭ Hoboo


    "Irish Mixed Foursomes, GUI All Ireland Fourball, Barton Cup, Metropolitan Trophy, Provincial Towns

    The respective Captains of the two teams about to engage in a match shall interchange simultaneously the names of members of their teams in their order of play, together with the names of reserves, not less than 30 minutes before the start of the match. In addition, a copy of the “Cups & Shields Handicap Report” generated from Golfnet which provides evidence of the lowest handicap held and the number of qualifying scores for each member of the team, in the previous calendar year, must be exchanged with the team sheet between the team managers. If the report is not available on the day of the match, it must be forwarded to the opposing Team Captain and Branch Office within one working day. Failure to comply with this rule will lead to the disqualification of the team concerned."

    I guess it depends on the Competition you are talking about, but lets take Barton Cup as an example, the GUI are very clear in their Tournament Conditions Book - excerpt above.


    Not sure what you're saying? It was the opposing team that didn't provide the team sheet with HC's. We lost the match. But we were reinstated. As per the conditions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭ Hoboo


    Ronney wrote: »
    Thats taking the Piss, I could understand a genuine mistake with one guy dropping briefly to .1 below the limit (Still a DQ) but 4/5 shots deserves a ban from interclub for the whole club for a period of time.

    I was off 18 at the time, was the all Ireland fourball........lads off 13 the previous year. Im guessing it was an honest mistake, they're a very well known club.


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭ elbagarihno


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Not sure what you're saying? It was the opposing team that didn't provide the team sheet with HC's. We lost the match. But we were reinstated. As per the conditions.

    Sorry, didn't mean to reply to your thread, was just referencing the GUI Rules.

    If the opposition to which Bottle was referring to in his OP didn't provide the Cups & Shields report then they too will be disqualified and his team reinstated as your was.


  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭ Bottle


    Common sense prevailed in the end....


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭ elbagarihno


    Bottle wrote: »
    Common sense prevailed in the end....

    So you're in the next round? Or they provided their GUI Report?


  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭ Bottle


    So you're in the next round? Or they provided their GUI Report?


    Asked them for their report, and it was provided outside of the GUI allowed time limit, all of the handicaps were within the allowed range. The manager was very apologetic.

    I am sure we could have asked for a ruling but at the end of the day it is only a game and it would have hung over my head and my club's reputation going forward. I wished them the best of luck in the next round.

    I would note that I consulted a number of reasonably minded people, and the general consensus was to lodge a complaint.

    Hopefully what comes around goes around.

    Thanks for all your opinions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    Bottle wrote: »
    Asked them for their report, and it was provided outside of the GUI allowed time limit, all of the handicaps were within the allowed range. The manager was very apologetic.

    I am sure we could have asked for a ruling but at the end of the day it is only a game and it would have hung over my head and my club's reputation going forward. I wished them the best of luck in the next round.

    I would note that I consulted a number of reasonably minded people, and the general consensus was to lodge a complaint.

    Hopefully what comes around goes around.

    Thanks for all your opinions.

    Good outcome.

    Had they just forgotten or were they asked on the day and didn’t have it or was there a reason ? When you handed over your clubs report did they not realise they should reciprocate or what ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭ Bottle


    Russman wrote:
    Had they just forgotten or were they asked on the day and didn’t have it or was there a reason ? When you handed over your clubs report did they not realise they should reciprocate or what ?


    Their assistant manager who was looking after their home team was asked for it but dont think he grasped the fact that it had to be provided. I think he assumed the manager would provide it, but he wasn't aware that it had to be provided.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭✭✭ TheMightyI


    I heard this morning that Forrest Little were DQ'd from Barton Cup at the weekend for similar reasons. Not sure of the exact details.


  • Registered Users Posts: 928 ✭✭✭ billy3sheets


    TheMightyI wrote: »
    I heard this morning that Forrest Little were DQ'd from Barton Cup at the weekend for similar reasons. Not sure of the exact details.

    This was against St Margarets. What I heard yesterday was alegedly FL did not play their team in the order in which it was submitted on playing sheet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ShriekingSheet


    This was against St Margarets. What I heard yesterday was alegedly FL did not play their team in the order in which it was submitted on playing sheet.

    Did FL win the fixture overall and then this was discovered later?


  • Registered Users Posts: 928 ✭✭✭ billy3sheets


    Did FL win the fixture overall and then this was discovered later?

    I'm not sure. Heard this from a guy who was on the panel but don't recall the detail so wouldn't like to say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭✭✭ TheMightyI


    Apparently Forrest Little played a pairing that were below 14 based on last year's handicaps. That was reason for the DQ.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,622 ✭✭✭✭ Seve OB


    Can a player represent 2 seperate clubs?

    I wouldn't have thought so for GUI run comps or can they? Maybe play for one club in one comp but their other club in a different comp?

    I would assume it is OK for locally run comps though.

    Anyone with any knowledge on this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,535 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Seve OB wrote: »
    Can a player represent 2 seperate clubs?

    I wouldn't have thought so for GUI run comps or can they? Maybe play for one club in one comp but their other club in a different comp?

    I would assume it is OK for locally run comps though.

    Anyone with any knowledge on this?

    Yes, just not for the same comp.


  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭ kennethrhcp


    Seve OB wrote: »
    Can a player represent 2 seperate clubs?

    I wouldn't have thought so for GUI run comps or can they? Maybe play for one club in one comp but their other club in a different comp?

    I would assume it is OK for locally run comps though.

    Anyone with any knowledge on this?

    I can't find the link but on GUI facebook page it was asked a few months back & a player can represent 2 different clubs but not in the same competition. i.e. you could play for 1 in Purrcell & another in Bruen. I'll try find the link


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,622 ✭✭✭✭ Seve OB


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Yes, just not for the same comp.

    really?
    so i can play bruen for one club and purcell for another?

    i would of thought i could only play where my handicap is kept


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