Interclub Competitions

Bottle

Could i ask a potentially sensitive question. If a club plays in an interclub competition but doesn't hand over the Golfnet "Cups and Shields Handicap Report" as implicitly laid out in the GUI Tournament Conditions Book the penalty for breach is disqualification. Would it be reasonable to pursue such a claim or would it be considered unsportsmanlike?

Rikand

The GUI should be following up on that sort of thing themselves.

Russman

Bottle wrote: »

Could i ask a potentially sensitive question. If a club plays in an interclub competition but doesn't hand over the Golfnet "Cups and Shields Handicap Report" as implicitly laid out in the GUI Tournament Conditions Book the penalty for breach is disqualification. Would it be reasonable to pursue such a claim or would it be considered unsportsmanlike?

I'm assuming the match has already been played and its the losing team who are considering this ? If so, purely IMO, its unsportsmanlike. Actually, no, its worse than that, much worse.

Possibly, and I stress only possibly, if there's a reasonable suspicion and evidence of something dodgy going on, then it may be an option, BUT, any team looking to be awarded a match like that, regardless of the rights & wrongs of it................well, word will get out and a reputation gained.
It's not something I'd do anyway.

Rikand is right, its up to the GUI to ensure clubs comply with entry into their competitions. If they are ok with it, then that's the end of it. Its none of another club's business how/when/why the opposition entered a competition.

Russman

Russman wrote: »

I'm assuming the match has already been played and its the losing team who are considering this ? If so, purely IMO, its unsportsmanlike. Actually, no, its worse than that, much worse.

Possibly, and I stress only possibly, if there's a reasonable suspicion and evidence of something dodgy going on, then it may be an option, BUT, any team looking to be awarded a match like that, regardless of the rights & wrongs of it................well, word will get out and a reputation gained.
It's not something I'd do anyway.

Rikand is right, its up to the GUI to ensure clubs comply with entry into their competitions. If they are ok with it, then that's the end of it. Its none of another club's business how/when/why the opposition entered a competition.

It's nothing to do with entry into the competitions.

There is a report that should be published by each Club of their team for the day. It shows their lowest handicap from the previous year and also the number of counting competitions. This is generated on Golfnet quite easily.

It should be available prior to any match but worse case scenario the Club should be asked to get someone to generate it while the matches are taking place.

Russman

Exactly wrote: »

It's nothing to do with entry into the competitions.

There is a report that should be published by each Club of their team for the day. It shows their lowest handicap from the previous year and also the number of counting competitions. This is generated on Golfnet quite easily.

It should be available prior to any match but worse case scenario the Club should be asked to get someone to generate it while the matches are taking place.

Ahh right, sorry, I thought it was some condition that I'd never heard of of entering the competition.
So its just a report printed on the day that shows the qualifying handicaps etc etc of the team ?

Regardless, and again, purely IMHO, I still think its beyond petty to be looking to win a match on those grounds. What if the club's printer was broken ?
There must be more to this.

Ronney

Bottle wrote: »

Could i ask a potentially sensitive question. If a club plays in an interclub competition but doesn't hand over the Golfnet "Cups and Shields Handicap Report" as implicitly laid out in the GUI Tournament Conditions Book the penalty for breach is disqualification. Would it be reasonable to pursue such a claim or would it be considered unsportsmanlike?

Is there a suspicion of eligibility or are you looking to try get through on a technicality?

Bottle

There is no suspicion that the opposing team wilfully cheated, however by not providing the official confirmation (for whatever reason) they are not abiding by the competition rules for some reason, and theoretically could have fielded an ineligible player.

I think that is why the GUI stance on the same is so strongly worded within the Tournament Conditions document....

Ronney

Bottle wrote: »

There is no suspicion that the opposing team wilfully cheated, however by not providing the official confirmation (for whatever reason) they are not abiding by the competition rules for some reason, and theoretically could have fielded an ineligible player.

I think that is why the GUI stance on the same is so strongly worded within the Tournament Conditions document....

Never managed a team but played on plenty. I assume the practice would be for both captains to exchange this information when they first meet or on the first tee.

What was there reply when your captain handed over yours?

Were they away and simply forgot it?

Was it a GUI Green Pennant comp or one of the Local type ones?

Russman

I've managed a few over the years (but its been a few years since I did it) and this formal requirement is a new one on me tbh. I just had a read of the rules there and, in fairness its fairly explicit what needs to be done, although it does give a period of grace of one working day.

Personally I still wouldn't be bringing it up (maybe that's just me). I might well remind the opposition team capt at the start of play that he needs to submit the form anyway, assuming he hadn't it with him at the start, but certainly once the match is over I'd be leaving it alone. Others may feel differently.

Hoboo

Last 3 years its been a requirement on any teams I played on. The first year a team we lost to had players out 4 and 5 shots less than the limit, they were subsequently DQ'd without our club making any complaint. Id have no problem pursuing it. But Id give the club the opportunity to furnish it with a gentle reminder you didn't receive a copy as required, before looking for a DQ. If all is above board then let it go.

lowelife

I'd say if this is post match, then the GUI will give a bye to the next round opponents rather than reinstate the losing team.

Hoboo

We were reinstated

elbagarihno

Hoboo wrote: »

We were reinstated

"Irish Mixed Foursomes, GUI All Ireland Fourball, Barton Cup, Metropolitan Trophy, Provincial Towns

The respective Captains of the two teams about to engage in a match shall interchange simultaneously the names of members of their teams in their order of play, together with the names of reserves, not less than 30 minutes before the start of the match. In addition, a copy of the “Cups & Shields Handicap Report” generated from Golfnet which provides evidence of the lowest handicap held and the number of qualifying scores for each member of the team, in the previous calendar year, must be exchanged with the team sheet between the team managers. If the report is not available on the day of the match, it must be forwarded to the opposing Team Captain and Branch Office within one working day. Failure to comply with this rule will lead to the disqualification of the team concerned."

I guess it depends on the Competition you are talking about, but lets take Barton Cup as an example, the GUI are very clear in their Tournament Conditions Book - excerpt above.

Ronney

Hoboo wrote: »

. The first year a team we lost to had players out 4 and 5 shots less than the limit,.

Thats taking the Piss, I could understand a genuine mistake with one guy dropping briefly to .1 below the limit (Still a DQ) but 4/5 shots deserves a ban from interclub for the whole club for a period of time.

Hoboo

elbagarihno wrote: »

"Irish Mixed Foursomes, GUI All Ireland Fourball, Barton Cup, Metropolitan Trophy, Provincial Towns

The respective Captains of the two teams about to engage in a match shall interchange simultaneously the names of members of their teams in their order of play, together with the names of reserves, not less than 30 minutes before the start of the match. In addition, a copy of the “Cups & Shields Handicap Report” generated from Golfnet which provides evidence of the lowest handicap held and the number of qualifying scores for each member of the team, in the previous calendar year, must be exchanged with the team sheet between the team managers. If the report is not available on the day of the match, it must be forwarded to the opposing Team Captain and Branch Office within one working day. Failure to comply with this rule will lead to the disqualification of the team concerned."

I guess it depends on the Competition you are talking about, but lets take Barton Cup as an example, the GUI are very clear in their Tournament Conditions Book - excerpt above.

Not sure what you're saying? It was the opposing team that didn't provide the team sheet with HC's. We lost the match. But we were reinstated. As per the conditions.

Hoboo

Ronney wrote: »

Thats taking the Piss, I could understand a genuine mistake with one guy dropping briefly to .1 below the limit (Still a DQ) but 4/5 shots deserves a ban from interclub for the whole club for a period of time.

I was off 18 at the time, was the all Ireland fourball........lads off 13 the previous year. Im guessing it was an honest mistake, they're a very well known club.

elbagarihno

Hoboo wrote: »

Not sure what you're saying? It was the opposing team that didn't provide the team sheet with HC's. We lost the match. But we were reinstated. As per the conditions.

Sorry, didn't mean to reply to your thread, was just referencing the GUI Rules.

If the opposition to which Bottle was referring to in his OP didn't provide the Cups & Shields report then they too will be disqualified and his team reinstated as your was.

Bottle

Common sense prevailed in the end....

elbagarihno

Bottle wrote: »

Common sense prevailed in the end....

So you're in the next round? Or they provided their GUI Report?

Bottle

elbagarihno wrote:

So you're in the next round? Or they provided their GUI Report?

Asked them for their report, and it was provided outside of the GUI allowed time limit, all of the handicaps were within the allowed range. The manager was very apologetic.

I am sure we could have asked for a ruling but at the end of the day it is only a game and it would have hung over my head and my club's reputation going forward. I wished them the best of luck in the next round.

I would note that I consulted a number of reasonably minded people, and the general consensus was to lodge a complaint.

Hopefully what comes around goes around.

Thanks for all your opinions.

Russman

Bottle wrote: »

Asked them for their report, and it was provided outside of the GUI allowed time limit, all of the handicaps were within the allowed range. The manager was very apologetic.

I am sure we could have asked for a ruling but at the end of the day it is only a game and it would have hung over my head and my club's reputation going forward. I wished them the best of luck in the next round.

I would note that I consulted a number of reasonably minded people, and the general consensus was to lodge a complaint.

Hopefully what comes around goes around.

Thanks for all your opinions.

Good outcome.

Had they just forgotten or were they asked on the day and didn’t have it or was there a reason ? When you handed over your clubs report did they not realise they should reciprocate or what ?

Bottle

Russman wrote:

Had they just forgotten or were they asked on the day and didn’t have it or was there a reason ? When you handed over your clubs report did they not realise they should reciprocate or what ?

Their assistant manager who was looking after their home team was asked for it but dont think he grasped the fact that it had to be provided. I think he assumed the manager would provide it, but he wasn't aware that it had to be provided.

TheMightyI

I heard this morning that Forrest Little were DQ'd from Barton Cup at the weekend for similar reasons. Not sure of the exact details.

billy3sheets

TheMightyI wrote: »

I heard this morning that Forrest Little were DQ'd from Barton Cup at the weekend for similar reasons. Not sure of the exact details.

This was against St Margarets. What I heard yesterday was alegedly FL did not play their team in the order in which it was submitted on playing sheet.

ShriekingSheet

billy3sheets wrote: »

This was against St Margarets. What I heard yesterday was alegedly FL did not play their team in the order in which it was submitted on playing sheet.

Did FL win the fixture overall and then this was discovered later?

billy3sheets

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Did FL win the fixture overall and then this was discovered later?

I'm not sure. Heard this from a guy who was on the panel but don't recall the detail so wouldn't like to say.

TheMightyI

Apparently Forrest Little played a pairing that were below 14 based on last year's handicaps. That was reason for the DQ.

Seve OB

Can a player represent 2 seperate clubs?

I wouldn't have thought so for GUI run comps or can they? Maybe play for one club in one comp but their other club in a different comp?

I would assume it is OK for locally run comps though.

Anyone with any knowledge on this?

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

Can a player represent 2 seperate clubs?

I wouldn't have thought so for GUI run comps or can they? Maybe play for one club in one comp but their other club in a different comp?

I would assume it is OK for locally run comps though.

Anyone with any knowledge on this?

Yes, just not for the same comp.

kennethrhcp

Seve OB wrote: »

Can a player represent 2 seperate clubs?

I wouldn't have thought so for GUI run comps or can they? Maybe play for one club in one comp but their other club in a different comp?

I would assume it is OK for locally run comps though.

Anyone with any knowledge on this?

I can't find the link but on GUI facebook page it was asked a few months back & a player can represent 2 different clubs but not in the same competition. i.e. you could play for 1 in Purrcell & another in Bruen. I'll try find the link

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes, just not for the same comp.

really?
so i can play bruen for one club and purcell for another?

i would of thought i could only play where my handicap is kept

kennethrhcp

Seve OB wrote: »

really?
so i can play bruen for one club and purcell for another?

i would of thought i could only play where my handicap is kept

found the link in my comments

https://www.facebook.com/golfingunionofireland/photos/a.845225648927964.1073741828.725667640883766/1533491446768044/?type=3&theatre

Andrew Norrby asked the same Q in the above link on FB (hope it works) & GUI confirmed it's ok:

"You declare for your club in one competition and if you're a member of second club you can declare for them in another competition.

You can't play, for example, Senior Cup for two different clubs in one season, but you could play Senior Cup for one and Barton Shield for another."

Seve OB

Fair play Kenneth.

Here is my situation, I'm declaring to play for one club in the Purcell, but I can't make the first round. If my club gets through the stroke play I will almost definately play in the matchplay the following day.

If they don't get through day one, as I haven't played for them, can I then play for the other club? Other club still will not have completed the first round.

As in, is there an official declaration? or is it just by virtue of playing that you declare?

kennethrhcp

Seve OB wrote: »

Fair play Kenneth.

Here is my situation, I'm declaring to play for one club in the Purcell, but I can't make the first round. If my club gets through the stroke play I will almost definately play in the matchplay the following day.

If they don't get through day one, as I haven't played for them, can I then play for the other club? Other club still will not have completed the first round.

As in, is there an official declaration? or is it just by virtue of playing that you declare?

I'd say drop the GUI a msg on their page on FB to get a clear answer. it's your intent to declare for one club over the other & use the other as a fail safe option but I doubt there's an actual declaration form pre-comp

Ronney

I'd say you are grand. You only really commit when your name goes down on an entry sheet that is handed it to the Officials on the day of play

Seve OB

just want to try and play as much team stuff as possible.

of course i have to try and get picked!!!!!

kennethrhcp

Seve OB wrote: »

just want to try and play as much team stuff as possible.

of course i have to try and get picked!!!!!

you're off 11 (I'm pretty sure I read somewhere), it's a strange one with the rule change re Bruen/Purcell and just being able to make both/either. I'm trying to get on both teams aswell & currently partnered with a 5handicapper for Bruen & things are going well... looked at the Purcell team & there's a fair few 11s looking for a decent 14/15handicapper but I don't think there's many out there for us.

like you I'm just mad to get in as much golf as possible & the team events are great craic

Seve OB

kennethrhcp wrote: »

you're off 11 (I'm pretty sure I read somewhere), it's a strange one with the rule change re Bruen/Purcell and just being able to make both/either. I'm trying to get on both teams aswell & currently partnered with a 5handicapper for Bruen & things are going well... looked at the Purcell team & there's a fair few 11s looking for a decent 14/15handicapper but I don't think there's many out there for us.

like you I'm just mad to get in as much golf as possible & the team events are great craic

yea 11.
I guess it is just down to the club and the range of golfers they have. some clubs might be the opposite and have loads of 14 lads and no 11's!!

slingerz

question about purcell eligibility for this year. i believe that it is your lowest handicap of the previous calendar year which decides your eligibility. others have arguend with me that it was changed to be what your handicap was at the end of the calendar year regardless of how low you had gone.

am i right or wrong?

Russman

slingerz wrote: »

question about purcell eligibility for this year. i believe that it is your lowest handicap of the previous calendar year which decides your eligibility. others have arguend with me that it was changed to be what your handicap was at the end of the calendar year regardless of how low you had gone.

am i right or wrong?

From the rules:

"No player shall be eligible to compete whose playing handicap was less than 11 during the previous calendar

year. The combined handicap of each pair, based on their lowest playing handicaps in the preceding calendar,

shall not be less than 25"

Seve OB

slingerz wrote: »

question about purcell eligibility for this year. i believe that it is your lowest handicap of the previous calendar year which decides your eligibility. others have arguend with me that it was changed to be what your handicap was at the end of the calendar year regardless of how low you had gone.

am i right or wrong?

you are right.
lowest handicap in previous year must not hve been less than 11.

10.5 is OK

rickis tache

All Ireland cup and shield finals on 21-23 Sep in Thurles.

good luck getting a hotel if anyone qualifies.

The same weekend as Feile 2018.

YoTaro

Caddies for Bruen and Purcell??
Heard from someone that you cant have a caddie with you for these competitions.

Is this a new rule?
Im pretty sure when i played a few years ago that a few players had people with them handing clubs and pushing trolleys etc.

kennethrhcp

ec5050 wrote: »

Caddies for Bruen and Purcell??
Heard from someone that you cant have a caddie with you for these competitions.

Is this a new rule?
Im pretty sure when i played a few years ago that a few players had people with them handing clubs and pushing trolleys etc.

it's true, new rule this year along with handicap changes (17 to 15 & 27 to 25) & Purcell is scotch now

YoTaro

I wouldnt be well informed on these comps but im on the panel for it this year.
Id imagine that this is a new rule that players may not be aware of.

Would there be an issue with a player having someone nearby to chat away with between shots once that person doesnt assist in any play??
Basically where the person just walks with the players

Irishdaywalker

I would think it is okay to have a chat with spectators - but I would suggest not to mention anything in relation to your match. Just in-case! where are you playing ?

kennethrhcp

ec5050 wrote: »

I wouldnt be well informed on these comps but im on the panel for it this year.
Id imagine that this is a new rule that players may not be aware of.

Would there be an issue with a player having someone nearby to chat away with between shots once that person doesnt assist in any play??
Basically where the person just walks with the players

I've no idea but i'm sure there's no rule against supporters following a match closely.

I think (& I could be wrong) but the reasons for the change were pace of play (2 sets of eyes is enough rather than 4) & a rumour I also heard was the host clubs (not saying this years in particular) didn't want to be forking out on twice as much food after the rounds

YoTaro

Irishdaywalker wrote: »

I would think it is okay to have a chat with spectators - but I would suggest not to mention anything in relation to your match. Just in-case! where are you playing ?

Ya safest way.
On in Adare, a nice fall of rain overnight and today. Hopefully it stays dry tomorrow.

kennethrhcp wrote: »

I've no idea but i'm sure there's no rule against supporters following a match closely.

I think (& I could be wrong) but the reasons for the change were pace of play (2 sets of eyes is enough rather than 4) & a rumour I also heard was the host clubs (not saying this years in particular) didn't want to be forking out on twice as much food after the rounds

My thoughts were if it was a wet day that having a caddie there to hold an umbrella and towel would be helpful. But under normal conditions theres hardly a need for one.

Irishdaywalker

Best of Luck - hopefully weather will be okay!

jtown

Course we are playing tomorrow - Bunkers out of play and placing everywhere! :eek:

Irishdaywalker

Madness . . . Middle of May . . . very frustrating!