My reasons for wanting to save the 8th.

Mocho Joe Joe

I can't put this anywhere publicly. I can't post my feelings on facebook. My friends all have their 'repeal' banners and tshirts and such, and it's all so highly praised. But not if you're one of ''the others''. Those obviously nasty, backwards religious freaks who don't care about women. That's what all ''the others'' are tarred as! But i'm not any of those things, I'm a woman. I'm young. I'm a mother. I'm athiest. I'm caring. I'm very liberal and forward thinking. BUT i want to save the 8th. There are reasons from my own personal life experiences that make me feel this way, and as part of a democracy I am fully entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I had an unplanned baby at 24, a shock yes, a tough start yes - but the single best thing that ever happened both me and my now husband. While walking through town on St.Patricks Day with a large bump, a girl that i was in school with, did the usual - stare in disbelief, followed by whispers of 'oh my god did you see that, cant believe she's pregnant' . This was common through my pregnancy as i looked about 17, but the looks, and judgements towards me were horrific. What gauled me most about this comment, was that that very same girl had an abortion the year previous, but was judging me for being pregnant? While waiting to be induced in one of Dublins top maternity hospitals, i was asked if a med student could sit with me and ask some background info. Question number one?? - how many sexual partners have i had!! I can guarantee you - the 30yr old married teacher on the same ward was most certainly not asked this question!! I applaude all the young women who go through this bull****, to bring life into the world. Looked down on by a huge number in society, judged. I can guarantee you, that the majority of women wearing 'repeal' tshirts are the very same women that will be disgusted if they see a pregnant woman with a cigarette because of the 'poor baby'. It's the hypocrisy of it all that makes me fume! My baby was diagnosed with a congenital abnormality at 38wks. A massive shock, i cried in my bed for a week at the thoughts of losing him/her. The news was grim and the prognosis poor. Upon research, the advised plan of action for babies with this condition in America is abortion. We had our girl, 5 weeks of hell in hospital and major surgery later, we left with a 100% perfectly healthy daughter. I find it so heart breaking to know that these babies in America just weren't given a chance and their parents were denied the happiness we have, because of the advice and options given to them at such a tragic time of turmoil. There are many stories that make it difficult for the referendum to be black and white. It isn't at all. There are horrific cases of rape and in the case of women needing cancer treatment that make my decision difficult. But like most things in life there will be pros and cons to all decisions. For me, the cons far outweigh in this argument and I don't think abortion should ever be socially acceptable, and that's what will happen if it comes in here. I feel for all women in desperately sad situations who have to make that journey, but we are not taking that option away from them. They still have an option, albeit not an ideal one, but one none the less. But for our country as a whole - it would massively change society. And that's something I can't get onboard with.

Day Lewin

Hear hear. Bravely said. And a dozen times, ditto, ditto ditto.

Hitman3000

Mocho Joe Joe wrote:

I can't put this anywhere publicly. I can't post my feelings on facebook. My friends all have their 'repeal' banners and tshirts and such, and it's all so highly praised. But not if you're one of ''the others''. Those obviously nasty, backwards religious freaks who don't care about women. That's what all ''the others'' are tarred as! But i'm not any of those things, I'm a woman. I'm young. I'm a mother. I'm athiest. I'm caring. I'm very liberal and forward thinking. BUT i want to save the 8th. There are reasons from my own personal life experiences that make me feel this way, and as part of a democracy I am fully entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I had an unplanned baby at 24, a shock yes, a tough start yes - but the single best thing that ever happened both me and my now husband. While walking through town on St.Patricks Day with a large bump, a girl that i was in school with, did the usual - stare in disbelief, followed by whispers of 'oh my god did you see that, cant believe she's pregnant' . This was common through my pregnancy as i looked about 17, but the looks, and judgements towards me were horrific. What gauled me most about this comment, was that that very same girl had an abortion the year previous, but was judging me for being pregnant? While waiting to be induced in one of Dublins top maternity hospitals, i was asked if a med student could sit with me and ask some background info. Question number one?? - how many sexual partners have i had!! I can guarantee you - the 30yr old married teacher on the same ward was most certainly not asked this question!! I applaude all the young women who go through this bull****, to bring life into the world. Looked down on by a huge number in society, judged. I can guarantee you, that the majority of women wearing 'repeal' tshirts are the very same women that will be disgusted if they see a pregnant woman with a cigarette because of the 'poor baby'. It's the hypocrisy of it all that makes me fume! My baby was diagnosed with a congenital abnormality at 38wks. A massive shock, i cried in my bed for a week at the thoughts of losing him/her. The news was grim and the prognosis poor. Upon research, the advised plan of action for babies with this condition in America is abortion. We had our girl, 5 weeks of hell in hospital and major surgery later, we left with a 100% perfectly healthy daughter. I find it so heart breaking to know that these babies in America just weren't given a chance and their parents were denied the happiness we have, because of the advice and options given to them at such a tragic time of turmoil. There are many stories that make it difficult for the referendum to be black and white. It isn't at all. There are horrific cases of rape and in the case of women needing cancer treatment that make my decision difficult. But like most things in life there will be pros and cons to all decisions. For me, the cons far outweigh in this argument and I don't think abortion should ever be socially acceptable, and that's what will happen if it comes in here. I feel for all women in desperately sad situations who have to make that journey, but we are not taking that option away from them. They still have an option, albeit not an ideal one, but one none the less. But for our country as a whole - it would massively change society. And that's something I can't get onboard with.

So basically and no disrespect meant but you are happy for women to have abortions once it doesn't happen in Ireland? That's really all I can take from your comment. Personally I think every woman should have the right to chose what is best for her and to receive all the care the state can provide. Pushing the problem to another state is a convenient cop out. Gald everything worked out for you but again you had a choice why deny others a choice?

p1akuw47h5r3it

What about women who can't afford to travel to England to have an abortion?

I do feel for you being pro-life even though I'm not myself, with the constant bile spouted by some pro-choice people labelling those who are pro life as misogynist and sexist. It works two ways though. However be confident to hold your beliefs in public, you'll be surprised the amount of people who share your view.

AnneFrank

Yes i too totally agree with you Joe Joe, and will also be voting to save the 8th, i mentioned this on another thread and was ganged up on.
That's the generation of today unfortunately, no free thinking allowed. Delighted to hear your daughter is happy and well.

endacl

I can’t argue with anything you posted, but I’ll still be voting to repeal.

Your choice is your choice, and should have no bearing whatsoever on the choice of any other woman, made for whatever reason is relevant to that woman.

Happy to hear your daughter is doing well and wish you every happiness.

Stupify

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So basically and no disrespect meant but you are happy for women to have abortions once it doesn't happen in Ireland? That's really all I can take from your comment. Personally I think every woman should have the right to chose what is best for her and to receive all the care the state can provide. Pushing the problem to another state is a convenient cop out. Gald everything worked out for you but again you had a choice why deny others a choice?

In fairness I don't really see it as exporting the problem, just because another country legalizes something doesn't mean we should too.
I'm in favor of repealing the 8th but not because our neighbors have abortion legalized, there's better reasons than that like you mentioned with regard to women's right to choose what to do with their bodies.

ironwalk

Joe Joe
I will be voting for repeal...but here's the thing.
I live in a democracy - lucky me. I entirely support your right to disagree with me and to vote in the opposite direction.

Unfortunately, this is issue is too often hijacked by people who do not/cannot/ don't want to listen to the opposite side.

I don't care what the disagreement is about; other people are entitled to their point of view.

I have not ever thought of having one; for me, regardless of what my baby's potential diagnosis will be, I would never have sought an abortion.
Abortion is not a choice for me because of my own view on life.
I wholeheartedly believe that it is always a very difficult, "least worst" option for a woman.

But, I cannot, in conscience take that choice away from another woman to make that decision for herself.

Ash.J.Williams

That's great fair play but what about other people?

Hitman3000

Stupify wrote:

In fairness I don't really see it as exporting the problem, just because another country legalizes something doesn't mean we should too. I'm in favor of repealing the 8th but not because our neighbors have abortion legalized, there's better reasons than that.

But it is exporting the problem and leaving these women without the after care they may need. Nothing got to do with copying our neighbour. Thousands of Irish women have abortions every year and its time we became responsible as a country and help them instead of as in times past ignore and let someone else sort it.

v638sg7k1a92bx

What about the choice of the unborn child?

Hitman3000

Mike Prickly Revenge wrote:

What about the choice of the unborn child?

Woman's body her choice up to 12 weeks as suggested by the legislature. She takes precedence as should have always been the case.

sasco

Repealing the 8th would not massively change society any more than the equality vote changed society. It would just give women a choice, an option and would not affect you personally in any way. It would mean women who choose to have an abortion don't have to travel abroad and would get proper follow-up care if required. If a woman experienced the same issue as you at 38 weeks the outcome would still be the same so your experience is not relevant in relation to the option of an abortion prior to 12 weeks.

Stupify

Hitman3000 wrote: »

But it is exporting the problem and leaving these women without the after care they may need. Nothing got to do with copying our neighbour. Thousands of Irish women have abortions every year and its time we became responsible as a country and help them instead of as in times past ignore and let someone else sort it.

Other countries laws with regard to abortion should have no bearing on our own and just because women go get abortions in these countries that doesn't mean it should be legalized here.

It should be legalized here to give women full autonomy of their bodies and for no other reason than that.

gctest50

Mocho Joe Joe wrote: »

.......................


I can guarantee you, that the majority of women wearing 'repeal' tshirts are the very same women that will be disgusted if they see a pregnant woman with a cigarette because of the 'poor baby'. It's the hypocrisy of it all that makes me fume!

..............

nope

AnneFrank

There is also a choice of the morning after pill, and safe sex.
I believe with abortion now available in cases of ffa this is enough.
But like ironwalk above, i also respect other peoples opinions, we are lucky to live in a democracy.

Hitman3000

Stupify wrote:

Other countries laws with regard to abortion should have no bearing on our own and just because women go get abortions in these countries that doesn't mean it should be legalized here.

So you are for repeal of the 8th but you are not for legalizing abortion?

Hitman3000

AnneFrank wrote:

There is also a choice of the morning after pill, and safe sex. I believe with abortion now available in cases of ffa this is enough. But like ironwalk above, i also respect other peoples opinions, we are lucky to live in a democracy.

Safe sex is not 100% safe. So a woman who becomes pregnant because of rape or incest should be denied a choice, other than get on a plane or boat?

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

There is also a choice of the morning after pill, and safe sex.
I believe with abortion now available in cases of ffa this is enough.
But like ironwalk above, i also respect other peoples opinions, we are lucky to live in a democracy.

The vast majority of women seeking abortions were on some form of contraceptive when they fell pregnant.
The MAP has serious side effects, and only works if you haven't ovulated. If you've already ovulated that month, tough luck, it doesn't work.

Its very frustrating to see "just have safe sex!!" thrown around. If it were as simple as practicing safe sex there would be no unplanned pregnancies worldwide and there would be no need for abortion anywhere.

CPTM

I used to feel like you. If it was a perfect world I would probably still feel like that. But the fact I've learned (first hand) is that abortion is happening here. It's happening in university dorms and family homes after young women get pills delivered from China and Russia. For those who can afford the trip to the UK, it's happening everyday for Irish women over there. Abortion isn't a decision taken lightly by the vast majority of women, and so my opinion is that if they decide to do it, availability of the procedure in Ireland isn't a factor. They'll do it regardless. With that in mind, I now believe the constitution change has nothing to do with allowing abortion in Ireland. We allow it already by doing nothing. This is about giving medical support to women so that if something goes wrong there's a qualified person there to help them. I'm sick of hearing about teenage girls taking this dangerous and emotional journey alone. And that's aside from the medical reasons for abortion such terminal pregnancies, or rape and incest cases and so on.

But I accept your opinion is yours, and I am annoyed at how emotional the back and forth becomes on these threads. Emotion ends up dominating the thread and much like arguments in real life, it becomes more about trying to win an argument rather than accepting the different views of others and moving on.

rawn

AnneFrank wrote: »

I believe with abortion now available in cases of ffa this is enough..

That choice doesn't exist in Ireland if the unviable foetus has a heartbeat!

strandroad

AnneFrank wrote: »

There is also a choice of the morning after pill, and safe sex.
I believe with abortion now available in cases of ffa this is enough.
But like ironwalk above, i also respect other peoples opinions, we are lucky to live in a democracy.

Nothing is 100% safe... if pills or implants fail you won't know until 2-3 weeks later when it's too late for emergency contraception.

We should really have a contraception refresher course for everyone in the country, the lack of basic understanding exposed by this debate is staggering.

SusieBlue

strandroad wrote: »

Nothing is 100% safe... if pills or implants fail you won't know until 2-3 weeks later when it's too late for emergency contraception.

We should really have a contraception refresher course for everyone in the country, the lack of basic understanding exposed by this debate is staggering.

It really is very frustrating, it oversimplifies the reasons why a woman might find herself in the midst of a crisis unplanned pregnancy, as if she were too stupid to even consider using a contraceptive.

It weaponizes children into punishments bestowed on their "careless" mothers - aka you were too stupid to use a contraceptive, we don't trust you to make an informed choice for yourself, but here's a newborn baby that you have to be responsible for for the next 18 years! I just don't understand it.

I don't see how its in the best interests of mother or child to force parenthood on her.

irishgirl19

Thats all well and good, but if you vote no you're stopping women who are raped , have baby with FFA, and people who just don't want a pregnancy from seeking a termination.
I don't think its any of my business what you do or how you choose, so why is it ok to restrict others who need the service.

What about the women who have delayed miscarriages or who are ill and can't have medical treatment due to pregnancy, who have to wait until their life is in danger before an intervention is allowed?
If you got pregnant again, this could be you, this could be me ...or anyone of us..
And we have children at home who need lookings after... Does the 8th care about them?

gctest50

rawn wrote: »

That choice doesn't exist in Ireland if the unviable foetus has a heartbeat!

ProLifers better not hear about muh petri dish


Cardiac cells will beat for craic

AnneFrank

SusieBlue wrote: »

It really is very frustrating, it oversimplifies the reasons why a woman might find herself in the midst of a crisis unplanned pregnancy, as if she were too stupid to even consider using a contraceptive.

It weaponizes children into punishments bestowed on their "careless" mothers - aka you were too stupid to use a contraceptive, we don't trust you to make an informed choice for yourself, but here's a newborn baby that you have to be responsible for for the next 18 years! I just don't understand it.

I don't see how its in the best interests of mother or child to force parenthood on her.

Well in the childs case, at least they'd have a life no ?

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

Well in the childs case, at least they'd have a life no ?

That's not for you to decide on behalf of anyone, though. You aren't the one who will be bringing up the baby, so to be frank, its nothing to do with you.

The needs, wants, and wishes of the living breathing woman should always be put before that of a >12 week old fetus. Living citizens should be prioritised over potential ones.

AnneFrank

I never said it was Susie, neither is it yours to speak for the child.
The voting booth will decide.

professore

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Woman's body her choice up to 12 weeks as suggested by the legislature. She takes precedence as should have always been the case.

This is my problem with repealing the 8th. Why not amend it to give the unborn SOME sort of rights in the constitution? As it stands repeal opens it up for a future government to either have abortions up until birth or ban abortions entirely. Both are quite possible.

I don't see why the whole REPEAL thing took off - or at least repeal it but put SOMETHING ELSE in the constitution.

For the gay marriage referendum no one suggested taking any reference to marriage out of the constitution.

I listened to some of the Oireachtas committee discussions on it and I was horrified at how sloppy they were with terminology.

It's a backwards step for democracy.

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

I never said it was Susie, neither is it yours to speak for the child.
The voting booth will decide.

Its not a child. If it were a born child I would be agreeing with you but that isn't the case.

It isn't just about you, or about me, and our feelings.

A Yes vote will allow you to continue to live your life by your own morals and opinions, and will afford others the same opportunity.

A No vote will ensure only one viewpoint is allowed, inflicting that viewpoint on the whole of society. Other people should not have to live their lives arrested by your feelings and morals. Women will undoubtedly suffer because of it.

I say this as someone who would never personally have an abortion myself.
I respect, and appreciate the fact that I will never fully know or understand the reasons a woman might find herself in need or a termination and I trust her to make that choice.

amcalester

I really can't wait for this referendum to be over and for the forced abortion to begin.

SusieBlue

professore wrote: »

This is my problem with repealing the 8th. Why not amend it to give the unborn SOME sort of rights in the constitution? As it stands repeal opens it up for a future government to either have abortions up until birth or ban abortions entirely. Both are quite possible.

I don't see why the whole REPEAL thing took off - or at least repeal it but put SOMETHING ELSE in the constitution.

For the gay marriage referendum no one suggested taking any reference to marriage out of the constitution.

It's a backwards step for democracy.

The only right they currently have is an equal right to life to that of the mother. That's exactly what the problem is.

Loveinapril

AnneFrank wrote: »

Well in the childs case, at least they'd have a life no ?

I've worked with young people in care for years. Many of these arrived into the care system before primary school age due to abuse/ parental alcohol or drug misuse/ capacity/ mental health issues/ intellectual disabilities, etc. I often wonder if the option to terminate pregnancies would have prevented many of these young people from a life of rejection, pain, anger and hurt. Many of the young girls I work with go on to have unplanned pregnancies and sometimes, their children end up in care due to the above mentioned issues. It is a cycle that continues if we force girls/ women to remain without any other options.

Hitman3000

professore wrote:

This is my problem with repealing the 8th. Why not amend it to give the unborn SOME sort of rights in the constitution? As it stands repeal opens it up for a future government to either have abortions up until birth or ban abortions entirely. Both are quite possible.

I'd be more concerned with those that are born ie the woman. The legislation purposes abortion up to 12 weeks, the only way that well change is if the Dail seeks to change the term and as surprising as it sounds to people the Dail is a reflection of society. It's not a dictatorship we vote for them. The rest of your comment about abortion up to birth is the type of scaremongering that has become prevalent in the 'save the 8th' camp.

strandroad

Mocho Joe Joe wrote: »

The news was grim and the prognosis poor. Upon research, the advised plan of action for babies with this condition in America is abortion. We had our girl, 5 weeks of hell in hospital and major surgery later, we left with a 100% perfectly healthy daughter. I find it so heart breaking to know that these babies in America just weren't given a chance and their parents were denied the happiness we have, because of the advice and options given to them at such a tragic time of turmoil.

Honest question, are you suggesting that these American parents are forced to abort or lied to with regard to baby's chances?

Your argument seems to be "I chose not to abort and was a good decision for us, so I want it banned for everyone else regardless of the consequences for them, be it cancer treatment or rape". You seem to be unable or unwilling to show basic empathy for other people's situation or experiences.

endacl

amcalester wrote: »

I really can't wait for this referendum to be over and for the forced abortion to begin.

I’ll be getting two, and I’m a bloke.

splinter65

Thanks be to jaysys. There was no abortion thread in News and Media. The pro repeal posters were getting fed up with only being able to talk down to everyone else on 4 or 5 different threads. Now there’s another one. Top class.

gctest50

9 posts and then the massive original post ? hmmm

is that yourself katie ?

neonsofa

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=162303571110735&id=142243109783448

Mocho Joe Joe

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So basically and no disrespect meant but you are happy for women to have abortions once it doesn't happen in Ireland? That's really all I can take from your comment. Personally I think every woman should have the right to chose what is best for her and to receive all the care the state can provide. Pushing the problem to another state is a convenient cop out. Gald everything worked out for you but again you had a choice why deny others a choice?

I'm voting no, but i'm not staunch pro-life in the sense that the life of a baby has priority over the mother. Exceptionally tragic cases of women who have been raped, or who need urgent treatment should absolutely get priority. But unfortunately this is not the option put on the cards for us. The option is all or nothing!! If my life was at risk, i would be devastated but would travel for an abortion as my kids need me badly. If the referendum was solely for these cases i would 100% vote yes! Like i said all decisions have pros and cons. But the option IS there to travel and seek help. But I can't ever say i agree with any woman choosing to abort for reasons of just not wanting a child. And for society and culture as a whole i don't want it coming into Ireland. That's not 'offloading' the problem to England, that's being realistic with the fact that the referendum could have had other options, but we weren't given those - it's all or nothing!

christ above

bad enough as it was already do we all get to start our own individual threads now and all?

iguana

AnneFrank wrote: »

I believe with abortion now available in cases of ffa this is enough.

Sorry what? Abortion is not now available in cases of fatal foetal abnormality and it never can be legal under the 8th amendment. Who told you it was legal now?

OrlaFS2017

I know you say the option is there to travel-but not everyone can afford this. Also what if the lady with a FFA has an out of date passport? With all the trauma she’s going through she needs to also get to a passport office to get an emergency one? What if she has no one to mind her other children? There’s a million different reasons (beside the medical ones like bleeding on the plane/boat Home) that mean that not everyone can “just travel” I can’t in good conscience vote to put women through this.

gctest50

Mocho Joe Joe wrote: »

............

And for society and culture as a whole i don't want it coming into Ireland.That's not 'offloading' the problem to England,

That is "offloading the problem to England"

Look :

Mocho Joe Joe wrote: »

But the option IS there to travel and seek help.

flogen

This isn’t the right forum for this discussion - moving it to After Hours

professore

SusieBlue wrote: »

The only right they currently have is an equal right to life to that of the mother. That's exactly what the problem is.

So the solution is to remove all rights from them? Why not remove mothers completely from the constitution too then? In fact why bother with a constitution at all?

A choice between basically no abortion and trust the politicians on abortion. That's a terrible choice for all but extreme No voters.

Noo

The question is would you have had an abortion if given the choice? Going by your post I'm going to say probably not, which wouldve been your choice and rightly so. A lot of other women would make the same choice.

The 8th amendment basically says that women cannot be trusted to make that decision.

Mocho Joe Joe

strandroad wrote: »

Honest question, are you suggesting that these American parents are forced to abort or lied to with regard to baby's chances?

Your argument seems to be "I chose not to abort and was a good decision for us, so I want it banned for everyone else regardless of the consequences for them, be it cancer treatment or rape". You seem to be unable or unwilling to show basic empathy for other people's situation or experiences.

Completely have me all wrong. But that's not the point or of any concern to me. I didn't choose not to abort - that word never even came into the conversation here it wasn't even a thought from anyone. That's my whole point. Our consultants were fighting tooth and nail for us to have the best outcome. Whereas in a society where abortion is an option - it was the first port of call. And THAT's where my concerns lie!! I have said that i have massive sympathy for any woman in a difficult situation and they should 100% be given help, but that option is only given to us on this referendum if we are also happy to change society and change our culture like in the example above. And that's a tough one to accept. If the no vote comes in, it crap for so many women, if yes vote comes in i think its awful for us as a society. That's just my opinion.

gctest50

professore wrote: »

...........

A choice between basically no abortion and trust the politicians on abortion.

They are never going to make it compulsory

ThinkPol won't be showing up on your doorstep to take your wife away when she gets a few blue lines and thinks about keeping it

screamer

irishgirl19 wrote: »

Thats all well and good, but if you vote no you're stopping women who are raped , have baby with FFA, and people who just don't want a pregnancy from seeking a termination.
I don't think its any of my business what you do or how you choose, so why is it ok to restrict others who need the service.

What about the women who have delayed miscarriages or who are ill and can't have medical treatment due to pregnancy, who have to wait until their life is in danger before an intervention is allowed?
If you got pregnant again, this could be you, this could be me ...or anyone of us..
And we have children at home who need lookings after... Does the 8th care about them?

No you're not. They have a choice to travel to the UK and if they really really want to abortion their baby, they'll find the money and a way to get there.
I used to be very pro choice but life experiences have changed my views considerably. I can't support anyone taking a little life, dress it up as you like, that is what it is. So we go to the vote majority wins....

AudreyHepburn

OP I am pro choice so can’t agree with your reasoning but I do commend you for being brave enough to give your views and standing by them.

My biggest problem with this whole debate is the malice and mockery many on the pro choice side direct toward the pro life side.

You simply cannot claim to be about letting people choose if you then mock, ridicule or outright abuse those who choose differently to you.

A little less emotion and a little more logical thinking is needed on both sides here.