Buying apartment with a family

fjon

I'm looking for people's thoughts on buying an apartment with a family of 4 (2 young kids).
We are looking at a fairly large 110sqm, 3 bed, two storey apartment, which is much bigger and modern than any house we've so far viewed. The apartment has two small balconies, and there is a common green area outside. The location is ok, as is the price, and the only thing really stopping us is the fact that it's not a house.
We are planning on buying something to live in for the foreseeable future, not something to "trade up" from in a few years.
Has anyone done something similar and what were your thoughts?

uck51js9zml2yt

What's your budget?
I wouldn't get an apartment with kids.
My brother in law did it in Europe but regrets it even though it's common.

Riskymove

are you happy for the kids to share a bedroom long term (if same gender not as much of an issue)

fjon

Riskymove wrote: »

are you happy for the kids to share a bedroom long term (if same gender not as much of an issue)

Yes, same gender, but there are three bedrooms so they don't need to.
Size wise there isn't an issue with the place, it's very big compared to any house we've seen.

Riskymove

fjon wrote: »

Yes, same gender, but there are three bedrooms so they don't need to.
Size wise there isn't an issue with the place, it's very big compared to any house we've seen.

OP

three bedrooms....two storey


Is this a duplex rather than an apartment? If so its not really that different from a house

jester77

Does it have a basement or attic facilities for storage? Does it have car parking facilities and somewhere secure for storing bikes? 110 sq. meters might be a bit cramped if you have no where to store things you don't regularly use.

fjon

Riskymove wrote: »

OP

three bedrooms....two storey


Is this a duplex rather than an apartment? If so its not really that different from a house

I guess it is a duplex, but not one with an outside entrance, it's inside an apartment complex. This is what I would typically think of as a duplex. We're currently living in something similar and it feels very much like a house, minus the back garden

fjon

jester77 wrote: »

Does it have a basement or attic facilities for storage? Does it have car parking facilities and somewhere secure for storing bikes? 110 sq. meters might be a bit cramped if you have no where to store things you don't regularly use.

No, it has 3 large storage spaces that would probably amount to the size of a small box room. Underground car and bike parking

o1s1n

Apartments just never really seemed child friendly to me to be honest. From the potential to fall off a balcony to no garden, communal areas having 'no ball games' signs, no pets etc.

Then there's the antisocial issues arising from close living such as kids running around hallways annoying their neighbours with noise, added noise in apartments annoying people in apartments underneath, where to store buggies, bikes etc. I'd aim for that house if I were you.

Rasputin87

How comfortable would you be sending the kids out to the common area to the play - is it visible from your window/balcony? Less peace of mind than sending them out to your enclosed back garden. Worst case scenario - if you hear one of them crying for help, how long does it take you to get out there - are you relying on elevators/multiple sets of stairs etc.?

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jester77

fjon wrote: »

No, it has 3 large storage spaces that would probably amount to the size of a small box room. Underground car and bike parking

Don't underestimate storage. A small box room doesn't sound like a lot. Take a look in any of your families or friends garages, basements, attics, etc just to get an idea.

My basement has a lot of things in there, especially seasonal things. Winter jackets, sledges, winter tyres, etc. all need to be stored during the warmer days, balcony furniture, wet suits, bbq, summer tyres, etc. need storing during the winter. And if anyone in your family has particular type of hobbies, then that can take up storage space.

cruizer101

A lot of what people consider negatives are only negatives in bad apartments.

Management Fees.
Have these in many estates, fair enough probably are more in an apartment but so long as it is well managed they aren't really a negative

Being in such close proximity with neighbours - can hear everything. You need earplugs for the whole family.
so long as it is built well this shouldn't be a problem

Kids - they play in the car park and damage cars and annoy everyone.
If it is well laid out with parking separate from common green this shouldn't be an issues

Common areas being abused.
This is down to tenants, can have bad neighbours also

Restrictions on what you can have on your balcony, what colour your front door can be, what plants you can have on your doorstep - it gets petty.
This can be an issue alright

This is Ireland - build quality is not great on apartments. Particularly ones built during the boom.
A lot are built badly but not all

Parking, if its not plentiful then you may have clampers being allowed to run wild over the area, its a pain having a few people over with nowhere to park, its a pain if someone takes your assigned space etc...
Again if it is well planned not an issue, many new estates are so cramped there is little to no visitor car park spaces.

But the biggest gripe is - you are under the dictatorship of the directors of the management company and at the mercy of your neighbours. If lots of your neighbours decide to stop paying fees, then you suffer. If the directors decide to make changes that you do not agree with - it can be very difficult to prevent such changes going ahead. Now - you can try to become a director yourself - but who has the time?
This is very valid concern, as are the others, I don't mean to say they are not a issue that you need to consider and look into, but without looking into the detail of are they actually issues in this apartment they are not reason enough to write it off completely as an idea.

In an ideal world you might try rent a similar apartment for a while but given the current rental crisis I can see that not being plausible.

I don't think it would be for me personally and you should have a good think about it but don't write it off just because it is an apartment.

fjon

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Good list, although a few of them wouldn't apply to the place I'm looking at, or they are issues that would also be present were I to buy a house. Biggest issues out of what you list are the management fees, and your last point.

I've rented houses, apartment, and duplexes over the last 20 years and am somewhat familiar with some of these (i.e. being told to take stuff off my balcony, and people dumping stuff in common areas), but I've encountered many of these issues in houses as well (build quality, kids, parking, noisiness).

PhoenixParker

Sounds like a decent place to raise kids.
The only difference between it and a house is that it doesn't open directly to a garden.

If you're happy for your kids to play unsupervised* in the common area and that the advantages of size and location vs a similarly priced house are worth it then go for it.

*assuming they're old enough/when they're old enough.

thomas 123

Im living in a lovely duplex with a sea view with the girlfriend in Galway. I Cannot wait to move out and buy a house.

My biggest issues are:

Other peoples kids - they have no regard for privacy and sticking to their own patch, it sometimes feels like they are sent to congregate around my block as its in the center of the development.

Lack of private garden - Sometimes you just want to sit outside without others looking at you.

Visits from Charity people, religious people and TV license inspectors - it really feels like they come visit me more here, so much so that i installed a door bell with a camera, that has seemed to deter most of them.

Walking past other peoples doors when they are outside - this again relates to privacy , its annoying having to greet people constantly.

Like others said I think its a cultural thing, If none of the above bother you then maybe its for you!

One question though is the difference really that much these days in terms of price?

fjon

thomas 123 wrote: »

One question though is the difference really that much these days in terms of price?

Yeah, price is a big reason we're even contemplating this. For the same price we can only get house in serious need of refurbishment, or a tiny ex council house, or somewhere in a completely unsuitable location.

Captain Flaps

Myself and my partner are in a pretty big 2 bedroom apartment currently, moving to a three bed gaff when the sale goes through. The apartment is nice but not having somewhere to store things like tools, space for painting or other DIY bits (I'm not particularly handy but a shed with the bare minimum is a must for me) and having to traipse up and down through lifts and stairs would be a dealbreaker for me. SImilarly I want to be able to keep whatever pets I want and extend my house as I see fit - can't make structural alterations to an apartment.

fjon

Looks like almost all are agreed that it's not something they would do with a family. Certainly something to think about very carefully.

I was hoping there might be one or two people on the other side too.

fjon

sugarman wrote: »

It's each to their own, but I'd rather a fixer upper and put in the money youre going to be paying a management company in fees each year that will do little or nothing for you anyway.

A fixer upper appeals, but only at a lower price.
If we buy a house at the top of our budget, how can we afford to fork out 10-20k to get stuff like rewiring, double-glazing, kitchen and floors done?
Management fees, while expensive, are due every year.

4ensic15

fjon wrote: »

A fixer upper appeals, but only at a lower price.
If we buy a house at the top of our budget, how can we afford to fork out 10-20k to get stuff like rewiring, double-glazing, kitchen and floors done?
Management fees, while expensive, are due every year.

20k won't cover all of that work. If that work needs to be done, insulation, floor coverings and redecoration at a minimum will also need to be done.

fjon

4ensic15 wrote: »

20k won't cover all of that work. If that work needs to be done, insulation, floor coverings and redecoration at a minimum will also need to be done.

Thought that might be optimistic. Most houses we've seen are F or G BER rated executor sales that require significant work to get to a liveable stage. And that's without adding some extra space.

LirW

I grew up in Apartments on mainland Europe, all being rented. It's grand really. No, it didn't damage me in any way.

Yes you can absolutely raise children in apartments, they can adapt so well to circumstances. It's more important that you're happy with the place, nobody really can tell you if the place suits you and your family long-term. Personally I've seen a few duplexes with great layouts, being not any different from houses minus the garden.
If the place could work for you including storage then there is no reason not going for it, I promise you the kids will just do fine.

We bought a house with a small garden last year and the times my son (7) played in it is exactly 0 seconds. He spends his time out the front with the neighbour's kids. Plenty of neighbours turned their back gardens into low maintenance gardens that they don't use, keep the dog in or hang their laundry and that's it really.

Has it good access to amenities? That's a huge plus too.

It only comes down to how workable the place is for you. Do you like it and do you like it enough that it outshines all the downsides of it?
At the end of the day everyone here can tell you how awful/great apartment living is, without knowing the exact place, layout, area it's of little use really. Personally I would have no problem raising my kids in an apartment given the quality of the place is good (no poxy celtic tiger build that's made of paper).

Good luck with your choice!

stiofan85

fjon wrote: »

Yeah, price is a big reason we're even contemplating this. For the same price we can only get house in serious need of refurbishment, or a tiny ex council house, or somewhere in a completely unsuitable location.

Small young family too and we've a tiny ex council house, and one in serious need of refurbishment (about 75sqm). Pain in the h*le to refurbish, and still isn't finished but we don't even notice what's not finished, we're just glad to have a home of our own. I would say this on the "serious need of refurbishment" part - a lick of paint and some cheap laminate flooring can make an awful lot of difference if you can't do everything up front. IKEA kitchen etc.... You don't have to go mad and can still make a lot of improvements without breaking the bank.

Benefits of the ex-council house over apartment:
Dry clothes outside. Kids = loads of washing as you know.
We're putting in a log cabin/shed jobbie in the back garden for extra storage and potentially a small office/study.
Attic space for storage with loads of plastic boxes. Still more space up there
Car parked at the front door - carrying a child up/down stairs to a car park with shopping in your hand? what if the lift is broken?
Neighbours are only on one side (end of terrace) and can't hear them thanks to the foot of concrete between the houses (these ex council houses are built like bomb shelters).
No maintenance fees, so that goes towards the house etc...
Neighbours are all elderly and lovely.
They are home all day doing neighbourhood watch and accept packages in the post, babysit for us etc...
No masses of kids running around wrecking the place/causing noise.
We can extend down the line for more space (50% of houses around here are extended, PP won't be an issue)

I could not imagine going back to apartment living after doing it for 8 years in Dublin.

So yeah, I'd advise the ex-council house over an apartment, but if you can get a 3 bed version that would be better. Ours is 2 bed, but best we could afford at the time.

fjon

stiofan85 wrote: »

Small young family too and we've a tiny ex council house, and one in serious need of refurbishment (about 75sqm). Pain in the h*le to refurbish, and still isn't finished but we don't even notice what's not finished, we're just glad to have a home of our own. I would say this on the "serious need of refurbishment" part - a lick of paint and some cheap laminate flooring can make an awful lot of difference if you can't do everything up front. IKEA kitchen etc.... You don't have to go mad and can still make a lot of improvements without breaking the bank.

Benefits of the ex-council house over apartment:
Dry clothes outside. Kids = loads of washing as you know.
We're putting in a log cabin/shed jobbie in the back garden for extra storage and potentially a small office/study.
Attic space for storage with loads of plastic boxes. Still more space up there
Car parked at the front door - carrying a child up/down stairs to a car park with shopping in your hand? what if the lift is broken?
Neighbours are only on one side (end of terrace) and can't hear them thanks to the foot of concrete between the houses (these ex council houses are built like bomb shelters).
No maintenance fees, so that goes towards the house etc...
Neighbours are all elderly and lovely.
They are home all day doing neighbourhood watch and accept packages in the post, babysit for us etc...
No masses of kids running around wrecking the place/causing noise.
We can extend down the line for more space (50% of houses around here are extended, PP won't be an issue)

I could not imagine going back to apartment living after doing it for 8 years in Dublin.

So yeah, I'd advise the ex-council house over an apartment, but if you can get a 3 bed version that would be better. Ours is 2 bed, but best we could afford at the time.

Interesting post, and it sounds like in a few ways you got lucky with your house (end of terrace, good neighbours, thick walls).
I wouldn't rule it out yet, but the places we've seen so far wouldn't be feasible, financially. New paint, floors and IKEA kitchen wouldn't be easy to do if we buy at the top of our budget, and what if something major urgently needs to be done (boiler, plumbing, electrics).
It's a tough decision.

LirW

The question is do you really want an apartment or do you want it because it's in financial reach? If the thought of apartment living with a family doesn't sit right and the decision is mainly a financial one you might regret it.

I said it before, you can easily raise a family in an apartment, millions of families all around the world do it, but you're talking about the biggest investment of your life here and if the thought of it is mainly driven by finances, you could end up unhappy.

Where are you looking if you don't mind me asking?

fjon

LirW wrote: »

The question is do you really want an apartment or do you want it because it's in financial reach? If the thought of apartment living with a family doesn't sit right and the decision is mainly a financial one you might regret it.

I said it before, you can easily raise a family in an apartment, millions of families all around the world do it, but you're talking about the biggest investment of your life here and if the thought of it is mainly driven by finances, you could end up unhappy.

Where are you looking if you don't mind me asking?

No, we didn't set out to buy an apartment. However, we aren't as concerned with as many of the negatives that people point out about it - for example lack of garden isn't a huge concern.
Looking in Bray

LirW

I think it really comes down if the apartment works for you on a long term. If you feel good in it and also think it works for the kids, it's great. If there's a park nearby even better. Kids adapt very well to circumstances, it's often the adults overthinking it.

If it's the apartment that I think it is honestly the layout of it is great. The only thing that would be a bit off-putting for me would be storage heating that most apartments have, they can eat a lot of money in cold winters, unless the apartment is well insulated.

robp

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Very few of these concerns don't apply to some or all houses. Apartments are not more susceptible to noise then terrace houses. Building standards are the factor that matters. Common area issues, management fees, rules, limited parking etc all apply in new houses. You can avoid them by having a detached one off but that is not really comparable.

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fjon

From personal experience of living in both a house and apartment there are some things that can be said in defence of the apartment:
Fewer (or no) barking dogs at night
Way less people ringing your doorbell selling crap
Way less junk mail
Usually warmer/ cost less to heat
Safer/ less breakins
Less people mowing lawns all summer

I'm still no more or less convinced after everyone's replies on this thread. It's a tough decision

maninasia

What it all boils down to is if that is all you can afford then go for it. Everything else is superfluous. House prices supposedly went up an average of 17k euro in one month.

That's the reality of the mess. I lived in an apartment overseas with my family and it's grand. Granted they are a bit more professional with security but management and facilities but it's good, my wife likes apartments feels they are very secure. We never get people ringing. If you find a decent building with decent neighbours you won't really have noise problems. Wouldn't mind a garden but can't get everything you want in life if you want to live close to your job and schools and public transport.

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danmanw8

I mean in this housing market, it might be the best way to go. There's an article below that touches on some of the different legal issues;

https://businessandlegal.ie/why-buying-an-apartment-is-different-from-buying-a-house-the-legal-issues

Noisy neighbours might be more of a common problem as you're more surrounded by neighbours. People move out of apartments more than houses too. Also someone said it about, but storage could be tricky, you might need to live a pretty minimalistic lifestyle but sure how bad. Might teach your kids to be tidier than most.

PhoenixParker

maninasia wrote: »

What it all boils down to is if that is all you can afford then go for it. Everything else is superfluous. House prices supposedly went up an average of 17k euro in one month.

That's the reality of the mess. I lived in an apartment overseas with my family and it's grand. Granted they are a bit more professional with security but management and facilities but it's good, my wife likes apartments feels they are very secure. We never get people ringing. If you find a decent building with decent neighbours you won't really have noise problems. Wouldn't mind a garden but can't get everything you want in life if you want to live close to your job and schools and public transport.

This is a big one.
I see so many people commuting hours each day for the must have house with a garden. The only time they see it during daylight hours is when they spend an hour mowing it at weekends. Otherwise they're at work or in the car driving places all weekend because when you live at semi-d densities you might get 1 or 2 amenities within walking distance vs what can be achieved at apartment densities.

Historically Irish apartments haven't been good for families - too small, no storage, no thought to amenities but the one you've described sounds decent.

Think about what you value, what you want to be close to and how you like to spend your time, then pick the property that suits you.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

On a vaguely related note I see that the government are going to drive towards more apartment building in the run up to 2040 to try and boost supply. I wonder will they do anything legislatively around the issues discussed in this thread, noise, parking, common areas etc.

PhoenixParker

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

On a vaguely related note I see that the government are going to drive towards more apartment building in the run up to 2040 to try and boost supply. I wonder will they do anything legislatively around the issues discussed in this thread, noise, parking, common areas etc.

They already have.
The guidelines that came in at the tail end of the boom massively improved the quality of apartments in terms of size, storage, common areas etc.


https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/def...s_21122015.pdf

Anything built from them on is much more lovable then 99% of the older stuff.

em_cat

Also, many apartment house rules preclude children playing in the common areas unsupervised and most OMC's will enforce this by fining and then in some cases and attain a judgement against the property.

Another thing is that a lot of apartment developments are not marketed to families so therefore are not built for families.

I know that these are issues can also be common in some housing developments, please keep in mind just because you think its big enough with plenty of storage, your other neighbours may or not appreciate living next door to or under two children bouncing around. This is one of the most contentious issues in a lot of developments.

LirW

em_cat wrote: »

Also, many apartment house rules preclude children playing in the common areas unsupervised and most OMC's will enforce this by fining and then in some cases and attain a judgement against the property.

Another thing is that a lot of apartment developments are not marketed to families so therefore are not built for families.

I know that these are issues can also be common in some housing developments, please keep in mind just because you think its big enough with plenty of storage, your other neighbours may or not appreciate living next door to or under two children bouncing around. This is one of the most contentious issues in a lot of developments.

And where should people with kids go then?
If your neighbours don't like kids, they'll never appreciate kids next door to them, same thing in houses. Really depends on the specific complex.

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LirW

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You've never been driving through Ballymun then :pac:

em_cat

LirW wrote: »

And where should people with kids go then?
If your neighbours don't like kids, they'll never appreciate kids next door to them, same thing in houses. Really depends on the specific complex.

It's not about our neighbours, it's about developers and the reality is, families with children are not really considered when designing apartment developments. It is well known in the industry that they only add elements to some degree because they are required under some development plans.

I do not necessarily agree with it but it is an issue that needs to be considered by the op.

em_cat

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Nor through Ballybrack or Rialto...

LirW

em_cat wrote: »

It's not about our neighbours, it's about developers and the reality is, families with children are not really considered when designing apartment developments. It is well known in the industry that they only add elements to some degree because they are required under some development plans.

I do not necessarily agree with it but it is an issue that needs to be considered by the op.

I fully get your point and there are apartments that are awful. But there are also apartments out there that are actually quite nice and would definitely work for a family of 4. Apartments are getting better, they are designed more spacious and workable for families now.
Granted, many of them are poxy shoeboxes.

em_cat

LirW wrote: »

I fully get your point and there are apartments that are awful. But there are also apartments out there that are actually quite nice and would definitely work for a family of 4. Apartments are getting better, they are designed more spacious and workable for families now.
Granted, many of them are poxy shoeboxes.

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but most of the apartment developments in Dublin City are not marketed to families, it's not about square meters within the apartment, it is the external facilities and the common areas; for example, in our development, we have roof gardens & courtyard gardens. They were not designed for children to play in supervised or not, our house rules reflect this as well. Also, we have rules about the playing with balls, hurling, golf, scooters etc...This is not because people asked for this to be the case, the rules were in place before sale.

However, we do have some open space amenities for families and community spaces that are owned by the council, I don't have an issue with this as I knew it before buying over 9 years ago and it brings life to the area.

You are right about some people, professionals without children mostly do not want to live under or adjacent to crying, screaming, bouncing, banging on walls, running inside, dropping toys, knocking things over...market research and our building regs reflect this.

Years ago I lived in Paris for several years and lived in a lovely small apartment complex off Rue Moufftarde, we had a family with small children that lived next door as well, but the place was very old and my adjoining wall was pure thick stone so the kids could do whatever they wanted and I never heard a thing from them and they couldn't hear me playing my violin or piano, but then again they where also very well behaved children both indoors and outdoors who knew the difference between inside and outside voices.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

A house, a house, a thousand times a house!
I see today that the government are further relaxing the regulations concerning apartments, in order to build as many of them as possible as a matter of urgency. You can just imagine the standards! This will only add to the nightmare scenario an apartment owner will experience especially in Ireland.

Heres Johnny

OP I'm not sure what kind of budget you are looking at but have a look at something like this duplex

https://touch.daft.ie/dublin/duplexes-for-sale/adamstown/31-stratton-walk-adamstown-dublin-1688203

I have a friend that lives in one near that one and its lovely. I rented a room from him for a while years ago then bought in same area. Own front door, own back garden. It's same size and about 60000 cheaper than a 3 bed semi in the area. Feels like a house in every way unless you stand outside looking at it.

DubJJ

I must admit that given the option, and with 2 children of the same gender, I would choose a 2 bed house with scope to extend in the future.
An apartment is very difficult to add value to and they can be more difficult to sell in the future (especially if there's any downturn in the market). And as everybody has mentioned, the maintenance fees, which can increase over time.
I've lived in both apartments and houses in my time and I think that the biggest difference is the feeling of ownership, apartments never quite feel your own as you need to get somebody else permission for almost everything.

I know you say you are looking for somewhere to stay long term but you always have to consider the possibility that you may not be happy there and wan't to give yourself the best opportunity for a secure and profitable investment.

seamus

sugarman wrote: »

It's each to their own, but I'd rather a fixer upper and put in the money youre going to be paying a management company in fees each year that will do little or nothing for you anyway.

Buy the worst property in the best area, not the best property in the worst area. Golden rule.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

seamus wrote: »

Buy the worst property in the best area, not the best property in the worst area. Golden rule.

Currently battling with extensive renovations on a house in a good area. Hoping you're right. At the moment we own a very expensive building site.

fg1406

I just bought a house after a few years of apartment living. The only benefits of apartment living that I felt were that it was cheaper to heat and it was nice having someone else take care of painting the block, grass cutting etc. In terms of the drawbacks, the noise between apartments was ridiculous. I could hear the neighbours close drawers. Also lack of storage space, parking was a premium as there was only 1.5 spaces per apartment but all apartments had 2 cars, no private garden / balcony, having to dry clothes indoors.

Now I lived in an apartment in Helsinki for a few months during a summer working abroad and the build quality was far superior to any apartment I’ve lived in here. We had a piano which no one could hear outside the apartment, a private storage unit in the underground car park (which were never vandalised or broken into which I saw happening in Dublin). The apartment even had a utility room which left more space in the kitchen for storage.