Homelessness and housing demonstration

Pixel Eater

Just wonder what people make of the national demonstration about homelessness and the housing crisis on tomorrow in Dublin? And if people intend to take part.

It's an issue I feel very strong about and I believe the Government simply haven't done nearly enough to alleviate the problem.

The problem is the characters involved in many of these protests and the one tomorrow; namely the AAA/People Before Profit and other such hard left groups. I'm utterly disillusioned with them; their constant negativity, impractical suggestions, vague slogans and some of the downright nasty behaviour of some of their representatives. I used to be quite sympathetic to them but after their antics and position on water charges I've little time for them.

I want to get involved and help solve the problem on the one hand but don't want to empower or support these groups on the other. Does anyone else think along these lines?

uck51js9zml2yt

How do you think you can help by going on a march? what needs to be done?

Pelvis

How will going on a march help solve the problem?

Michael D Not Higgins

It's not like it's a political issue like the 8th amendment which is demonstrating the will of the people and a change to the law. Everyone knows there's an issue, everyone wants there not to be an issue, the problem is the cost to fix it which isn't available.

shivermetimber

I'd be the same and I'll be there. There will always be those present that you don't see eye to eye with but if you believe that something needs to be done on a particular topic then getting up and out is always the better option.

Pixel Eater

Scarlett Gorgeous Stint wrote: »

How do you think you can help by going on a march? what needs to be done?

Pelvis wrote: »

How will going on a march help solve the problem?

Well I suppose you can be cynical and sneery and stay at home but a well attended demonstration can illustrate the anger of the people and give the government some food for thought with an election in the not too distant future.

Pixel Eater

shivermetimber wrote: »

I'd be the same and I'll be there. There will always be those present that you don't see eye to eye with but if you believe that something needs to be done on a particular topic then getting up and out is always the better option.

I tend to agree with you. I just wish there was a non-political, well informed group with practical solutions that one could support.

I suppose I could attend the initial walk and then leave once the aforementioned politicians get on their soapbox.

Eric Cartman

1) the government know people are angry, they're not ignoring it
2) you can't just sign a document and suddenly theres loads of houses built.
3) The homeless figures are inflated by agencies and people are declaring as homeless to game the system
4) social housing in dalkey/blackrock/dublin 4/not shítty areas isn't going to happen, when the government had a plan to build more houses in ballymun everyone went mad about that, its impossible to win with this crowd without making every working person in Ireland want to vomit.

splinter65

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Well I suppose you can be cynical and sneery and stay at home but a well attended demonstration can illustrate the anger of the people and give the government some food for thought with an election in the not too distant future.

What do you think the government should be doing that they’re not doing, and which other public service will they pull the money from in order to service your ideas?

Browney7

splinter65 wrote: »

What do you think the government should be doing that they’re not doing, and which other public service will they pull the money from in order to service your ideas?

I don't see why the government can't explore borrowing the money for 20 years at a rate of sub 2% and build the properties near decent public transport and rent them at a gross yield of 5% (1000 per month on a 240k property) to people who are lower paid but don't qualify for social housing - it's never going to happen though. In twenty years time they will still have the asset - it's not like pissing current spending down the swanny.

They keep harping on about supply being the issue but have done nothing to actually stimulate supply creation themselves bar devising a help the developers grant that just increased housing costs.

Pixel Eater

Eric Cartman wrote: »

1) the government know people are angry, they're not ignoring it
2) you can't just sign a document and suddenly theres loads of houses built.
3) The homeless figures are inflated by agencies and people are declaring as homeless to game the system
4) social housing in dalkey/blackrock/dublin 4/not shítty areas isn't going to happen, when the government had a plan to build more houses in ballymun everyone went mad about that, its impossible to win with this crowd without making every working person in Ireland want to vomit.

Well that's another issue I have; I don't entirely believe much of what the hard left have to say and take it with a pinch of salt. But me sneering from the sidelines isn't helping either. As I said I want to help but have deep reservations about the organisers.

splinter65 wrote: »

What do you think the government should be doing that they’re not doing, and which other public service will they pull the money from in order to service your ideas?

Simply build more houses directly and provide far more public housing. However raise the income threshold so far more people qualify and evict those who don't/won't pay their rents. Social housing needs major reform IMO.

uck51js9zml2yt

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Well I suppose you can be cynical and sneery and stay at home but a well attended demonstration can illustrate the anger of the people and give the government some food for thought with an election in the not too distant future.

I just asked a question which you failed to answer and instead got personal.
If you've no ideas as to how it can be fixed, just say so.

Claw Hammer

splinter65 wrote: »

What do you think the government should be doing that they’re not doing, and which other public service will they pull the money from in order to service your ideas?

It would cost nothing to re-open the closed pre-63s for example. There are perfectly good dwellings lying idle because of the regulations demanding en-suite bathrooms.

PMBC

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It's not like it's a political issue like the 8th amendment which is demonstrating the will of the people and a change to the law. Everyone knows there's an issue, everyone wants there not to be an issue, the problem is the cost to fix it which isn't available.

Thhats a strange thing to say Michael D when politicians repeatedly say its not about money. So either that was a lie or they dont know how to or, for political or self interest reasons, dont want to.

splinter65

Browney7 wrote: »

I don't see why the government can't explore borrowing the money for 20 years at a rate of sub 2% and build the properties near decent public transport and rent them at a gross yield of 5% (1000 per month on a 240k property) to people who are lower paid but don't qualify for social housing - it's never going to happen though. In twenty years time they will still have the asset - it's not like pissing current spending down the swanny.

They keep harping on about supply being the issue but have done nothing to actually stimulate supply creation themselves bar devising a help the developers grant that just increased housing costs.

Actually I agree with you about borrowing the money.

splinter65

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Well that's another issue I have; I don't entirely believe much of what the hard left have to say and take it with a pinch of salt. But me sneering from the sidelines isn't helping either. As I said I want to help but have deep reservations about the organisers.



Simply build more houses directly and provide far more public housing. However raise the income threshold so far more people qualify and evict those who don't/won't pay their rents. Social housing needs major reform IMO.

But where is the money going to come from to build these houses?

Michael D Not Higgins

PMBC wrote: »

Thhats a strange thing to say Michael D when politicians repeatedly say its not about money. So either that was a lie or they dont know how to or, for political or self interest reasons, dont want to.

Why wouldn't it be about money? We could solve the majority of the homeless problem by a large scale building project to house everyone who is currently on the homeless list. Why haven't the government done that do you think?

shivermetimber

I would be happy to see the following being explored properly:

- Engage further with affordable housing groups such as Ó Cualann cohousing Alliance.
- Ease up on the strict regulations for new builds. I get that regulations are needed but the current requirements are off scale.
- Explore modern methods of building. It simply does not have to be so complicated and expensive to build suitable accommodation.
- Heavily tax dormant property owners for lack of use.
- Find some way to get property owners to engage with the rental market again, be it a decent reduction in landlord tax or some other option.
- Actually enforce the rental regulations in place, instead of it just being said on paper and not actually being upheld.
- Encourage long terms rental contracts like Europe and elsewhere.
- Increase funding for mental health and addiction services.

How can money be generated to stimulate some of the above? The most obvious answer is to stop living in the past and legalise cannabis, regulate and tax it. The research and proof is there that it can be done and done well. I'd imagine that would go some ways to foot the bill whilst also helping to solve other problems.

serfboard

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be about money? We could solve the majority of the homeless problem by a large scale building project to house everyone who is currently on the homeless list. Why haven't the government done that do you think?

Because it's about more than just about money - landlords, who are political representatives of, members of, and voters of Fine Gael simply won't wear it.

They'd accuse the government of "interfering in the market".

Pixel Eater

Scarlett Gorgeous Stint wrote: »

I just asked a question which you failed to answer and instead got personal.
If you've no ideas as to how it can be fixed, just say so.

Sorry I wasn't directing that at you personally. Lost in translation; I suppose I should've wrote 'one can be cynical'.

Pixel Eater

splinter65 wrote: »

But where is the money going to come from to build these houses?

There is European funds for such things that they can draw down that are off balance sheet and with low interest. Plus they spend millions providing hotel rooms to homeless families already.

I genuinely don't think it's about the money, more the lack of will.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

But where is the money going to come from to build these houses?

I think the money is there. Unfortunately, planning seems to be a huge problem with objections not only from residents but often from councilors and other TDs who will be out in force at the weekend. They need a break from telling the people how to vote in the upcoming referendum.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the money is there. Unfortunately, planning seems to be a huge problem with objections not only from residents but often from councilors and other TDs who will be out in force at the weekend. They need a break from telling the people how to vote in the upcoming referendum.

I turned on my radio today to hear Senator Aodhan O Riordan criticising the granting of planning for a site beside St. Annes park in Raheny.(I dont think its in the park, it sounds like the developer owns the site)

I think he was denying that the construction of a few hundred houses & apartments would do anything to ease the homeless crisis.


And Aodhan likes to portray himself as the voice of the trendy anti-trump, anti-racism, feminist, anti-direct provision, pro publics service, pro social housing, and anti-homelessness brigade. :pac:

He is trying to get back in as a TD and he knows his voters. :cool:

Colonel Claptrap

Today 1,000 objections were given to 500 new dwellings in Raheny.

The Merrion gates will not be closed to traffic due to local objections.

Johnny Ronan's high rise tower on Tara street was denied planning permission.

Yet reading this thread it seems throwing money at the issue is the only solution.

Houses for everybody! Except NIMBY!

hmmm

If they spent less time marching and more time working and paying taxes we'd have more money to spend on this.

I think the fundamental problem is most people don't believe the figures (there are not 10,000 "homeless"), and most taxpayers are sick of paying massive taxes which are going to what they perceive to be spongers.

It's also the case the people who have paid for their houses don't want to be living beside the unknown of social housing tenants, and it is clearly bad practice to build massive estates filled with just social housing. No politician will propose either, so there's a bit of a catch 22.

GarIT

I'll never support subsidised housing for the otherwise homeless until there are guarantees that they can never buy the house and nobody is given a choice over which house they get.

splinter65

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Today 1,000 objections were given to 500 new dwellings in Raheny.

The Merrion gates will not be closed to traffic due to local objections.

Johnny Ronan's high rise tower on Tara street was denied planning permission.

Yet reading this thread it seems throwing money at the issue is the only solution.

Houses for everybody! Except NIMBY!

And the Irish are world champions at this.
“Oh it’s sooo sad all the poor likkle babies sleeping in the hotels! Someone give them houses now!! (...but nowhere near me...).

the_syco

Eric Cartman wrote: »

4) social housing in dalkey/blackrock/dublin 4/not shítty areas isn't going to happen

This. They want the houses built in high cost areas, without realizing that one house in Blackrock there could buy nearly 5 houses elsewhere in Kildare. Also, they don't seem to realize that those areas may be great due to a lack of social houses, and the issues that some bring with them.

The Specialist

I can't buy in to this at all. Oh you want a "forever home" because you've forced your child to live in a hotel? **** off. We have parasites gaming the system now, no sympathy.

Pixel Eater

Judging by the tone I'm guessing most people here aren't going...

shivermetimber

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Judging by the tone I'm guessing most people here aren't going...

Seems so but I suppose a lack of understanding and empathy along with a big brush to tar everyone with isn't really compatible with social change.

rossmores

the march is about free houses there is a 400m deficit on the existing stock why would any tax payer would want more of the same hope it fcuking rains for them

shivermetimber

rossmores wrote: »

the march is about free houses there is a 400m deficit on the existing stock why would any tax payer would want more of the same hope it fcuking rains for them

I think you'll find it's actually advertised as a march 'for the crisis of homelessness, rents, the lack of affordable housing, and the vast shortage of social housing'.

PMBC

hmmm wrote: »

If they spent less time marching and more time working and paying taxes we'd have more money to spend on this.

I think the fundamental problem is most people don't believe the figures (there are not 10,000 "homeless"), and most taxpayers are sick of paying massive taxes which are going to what they perceive to be spongers.

It's also the case the people who have paid for their houses don't want to be living beside the unknown of social housing tenants, and it is clearly bad practice to build massive estates filled with just social housing. No politician will propose either, so there's a bit of a catch 22.

For most of people like myself its not a working day but I would freely work a day without pay if it all went to solve this problem. I never objected to paying more/high taxes as it came with earning more, always. I agree with most of what you say in 3rd para. - snobbery, poorly designed uni-model large estates.

I dont have a figure for homeless but would believe figures from Sr. Stan and similar.

NIMAN

PMBC wrote: »

For most of people like myself its not a working day but I would freely work a day without pay if it all went to solve this problem. I never objected to paying more/high taxes as it came with earning more, always. I agree with most of what you say in 3rd para. - snobbery, poorly designed uni-model large estates.

I dont have a figure for homeless but would believe figures from Sr. Stan and similar.

Why how many does Sr Stan say are homeless?

Wheeliebin30

Work hard in school kids you’ll be able to buy a nice house.

Don’t bother working hard in school kids as the fella who worked hard will just pay for your house which will be the same as his.

What ever happened to personal responsibility?

the_syco

shivermetimber wrote: »

I think you'll find it's actually advertised as a march 'for the crisis of homelessness, rents, the lack of affordable housing, and the vast shortage of social housing'.

I wonder if that really means there's a "vast shortage of social housing" in nice areas?

A few people ask if I'd live next to a drug dealer, travellers, etc, etc. Well, if I'm buying the house, I can choose. If I'm getting a house for shag all, with the only other option being the streets, I'll grab the house. But the other option is indefinite stay at random hotel, whilst being classed as homeless.

shivermetimber

the_syco wrote: »

I wonder if that really means there's a "vast shortage of social housing" in nice areas?

A few people ask if I'd live next to a drug dealer, travellers, etc, etc. Well, if I'm buying the house, I can choose. If I'm getting a house for shag all, with the only other option being the streets, I'll grab the house. But the other option is indefinite stay at random hotel, whilst being classed as homeless.

Social housing isn't just for homeless people. I think your understanding of the term is skewed somewhat.

Here is a good write up of what I consider social housing and the comments by Fiona deFreyne and Dave Doyle are good additions also.

fxotoole

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527


Also get rid of the damn stupid regulations that prevent “ruining the skyline” and build upwards in Dublin City center.

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

Browney7

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Work hard in school kids you’ll be able to buy a nice house.

Don’t bother working hard in school kids as the fella who worked hard will just pay for your house which will be the same as his.

What ever happened to personal responsibility?

Except people who have done the "right" thing and got an education and a job and provide for themselves are being bent over for tax and astronomical rents/mortgages etc with precarious employment with poor conditions and low pay having to rely on FIS - look at newly qualified teachers and nurses for instance emigrating hand over fist.

Meanwhile wealthy people are becoming ever wealthier with stock market and property price increases due to the wholesale money printing by central banks. Wealth and generational inequality is going to come home to roost and it won't be pretty

the_syco

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527

Can't read the article, as it demands that I pay money to do so. I assume this is the same article.

A nice idea. You'd still need to insulate it, though, and wire it. And plumb it. Also, buy the land. Plots of land inside Dublin are still insanely priced.

fxotoole wrote: »

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

So, move the problem? Out of sight, out of mind. How about we just skip the housing, and burn them alive, like the Nazi's did in the 40's? That also got rid of the junkies.

fxotoole wrote: »

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

Why bother paying rent if the government will house you for free?

fxotoole wrote: »

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

It'd move the junkies away from where they can receive help. The dealers can drive out to them, though.

shivermetimber wrote: »

Social housing isn't just for homeless people. I think your understanding of the term is skewed somewhat.

Here is a good write up of what I consider social housing

Landlords can evict from furnished apartments a lot easier than non furnished – that’s why they don’t move their stuff out.

No, they rent furnished apartments, as that's what the Irish expect. It's cheaper to rent unfurnished, as beds, couches, being damaged won't be the LL's problem, as it'll be the tenants property being damaged.

It is not the job of developers to plan for and provide housing for the citizens – that’s the State’s job

How is it the States job to house people who can afford to buy their own house?

If we put control in the hands of those whose interests are pure profit, we will end up with proposals for smaller units that won’t solve the housing crisis and create new social ills.

Minimum unit size is decided by government. They have reduced the size. People want cheap, people get cheap.

Previous social housing projects like Ballymun and other areas were failures and created massive social problems and generations of sidelined citizens – problems that you don’t see in more affluent areas.

The Ballymun flats failed because there wasn't enough money to fix the problems with them, not enough money to do maintenance, and the issues generally snowballed. Problems you don't see in affluent areas where people pay money to have these issues fixed.

If the building industry thinks this is unworkable, that they won’t attract investors because the profit margins are too low – then don’t do it. Let government do it, and contract the work for a fixed price to the standards determined by government.

The standards are currently determined by the government.

I don’t accept that no-one will take up the contract – we are in Europe with access to a European workforce.

So basically get in cheap labour? Ask France how well that turned out.

If they can do it in Germany, we can do it here

Really? Germany?

https://www.thelocal.de/20170405/what-you-need-to-know-when-renting-a-flat-in-germany-housing-apartment

“Particularly in the big cities and university towns, there is a shortage of thousands of apartments,” says Ropertz.

“The consequence is that rents - particularly those that come with the signing of new contracts - have been rising for years,” he warns.

In Germany you generally do not deal with the landlord directly but with the Hausverwaltung, which looks after a portfolio of properties for the landlords.

The Hausverwaltung sounds like an Estate Agent. And the issues sound like Ireland.

So when someone says "If they can do it in Germany, we can do it here" I wonder "they can do WHAT in Germany"?

BoatMad

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527


Also get rid of the damn stupid regulations that prevent “ruining the skyline” and build upwards in Dublin City center.

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

I see no reason to throw away planing laws simply to solve a temporary crisis or to simply in effect re-build tenements and failed high rise apartments

GarIT

BoatMad wrote: »

I see no reason to throw away planing laws simply to solve a temporary crisis or to simply in effect re-build tenements and failed high rise apartments

The planning laws in Dublin are insane. It should be forbidden to build anything under 20 stories in the city rather than the other way around. Dublin needs functionality, **** how it looks.

NIMAN

GarIT wrote: »

The planning laws in Dublin are insane. It should be forbidden to build anything under 20 stories in the city rather than the other way around. Dublin needs functionality, **** how it looks.

Totally agree.

Look at all the other progressive capital cities around the world.....they don't have these nonsense rules in place and don't look any the worse for it.

davo10

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527


Also get rid of the damn stupid regulations that prevent “ruining the skyline” and build upwards in Dublin City center.

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

Dear God, why buy a 3D printer, a few sheets of ply and saw will do.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/lifestyle/homes-and-property/irish-housing-crisis-shed-dublin-12308697.amp

Of course, planning, electricity, insulation, water and sewage helps, but crack on with the printer by all means.

BoatMad

GarIT wrote: »

The planning laws in Dublin are insane. It should be forbidden to build anything under 20 stories in the city rather than the other way around. Dublin needs functionality, **** how it looks.

never, an aesthetic must prevail, cities need to far more then functional , they should be beautiful , as well , or would you rather soviet style buildings

Dublin is a historic low rise city , there is scope for certain areas to tolerate higher buildings

none of that is a solution to the homelessness crisis, there is no shortage of land

jimmycrackcorm

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

People were out objecting to the modular housing initiative by DCC. That was thinking outside the box. But a lot of the homeless crisis is an ideological manipulation by the Anti-Everything Alliance and other extremes.

This is how bad that got: Modular homes in Ballymun delayed after security staff threatened by people in balaclavas

As for joining a homeless demonstrations, I'd suggest it should really be an Anti-nimby demonstration.

TheRealPONeil

"a lot of the homeless crisis is an ideological aversion to" - actually providing homes for people - did anyone think of that?

rossmores

Its a chance for the 70 homeless organizations to promote and push the usual anti landlord free house socialist agenda and all looking for govt funds too and maybe with a lidl help
Welcome the 2018 scroungers and spongers festival i wonder will ye have Bono on ur side

Wanderer78

Maybe the real 'scroungers' are in fact our 'modern rentier class', 'extracting' wealth from our societies, including from many landlords?

Graces7

rossmores wrote: »

Its a chance for the 70 homeless organizations to promote and push the usual anti landlord free house socialist agenda and all looking for govt funds too and maybe with a lidl help
Welcome the 2018 scroungers and spongers festival i wonder will ye have Bono on ur side

No one gets a free house, Trust me on that! And not all needing a house are scroungers etc,, REALLY!