Ireland should stop spending so much on foreign aid.

Mutant z

Why does Ireland spend so much on foreign aid wouldnt it be better keeping more of that money in the country on things that matter such as health, education, housing, homelessness etc. What has foreign aid ever done to improve the standard of living in Africa anyway absolutely nothing, it often ends up in the hands of corrupt officials to prop up their regimes how much of it actually goes to where its intended.It's a complete waste of time and effort so what reason other than looking for a good pat on the back is there for it it should be drastically reduced, why should so much of the populations money be spent on this without their say so, especially when its had minimul impact on those its supposed to be helping.

How about focusing on cutting the huge array of state handouts to tax-dodging wealthy corporations and people?

It's always the easy targets.

kirving

I'm very happy to see some of my taxes go to feed starving people and to develop the world's infrastructure for a better future for everyone.

That old chestnut of "Charity starts at home" means very little when we have one of the most generous welfare systems in the world. People will take as much as they're given, and I don't think that just being born on this island should qualify you for that.

Mutant z

Its all well and good if you want to pay towards a charity of some sort but it should be out of your own pocket i dont see why others should be forced to as well many people have enough of their own problems at home to worry about.

Chancer3001

Is it not an eu directive that we have to ?

corks finest

Mutant z wrote: »

Why does Ireland spend so much on foreign aid wouldnt it be better keeping more of that money in the country on things that matter such as health, education, housing, homelessness etc. What has foreign aid ever done to improve the standard of living in Africa anyway absolutely nothing, it often ends up in the hands of corrupt officials to prop up their regimes how much of it actually goes to where its intended.It's a complete waste of time and effort so what reason other than looking for a good pat on the back is there for it it should be drastically reduced, why should so much of the populations money be spent on this without their say so, especially when its had minimul impact on those its supposed to be helping.

Agree totally,and not saying this lighhtly, charity begins and ends at home,,,,,having worked voluntary in Romanias orphanages and aids/tb clinics for years in times past, saw first hand how the sick/poor/orphand got vv little of what was donated,and same happening in Africa for generations,no more.

Ronaldinho

Mutant z wrote: »

Why does Ireland spend so much on foreign aid wouldnt it be better keeping more of that money in the country on things that matter such as health, education, housing, homelessness etc. What has foreign aid ever done to improve the standard of living in Africa anyway absolutely nothing, it often ends up in the hands of corrupt officials to prop up their regimes how much of it actually goes to where its intended.It's a complete waste of time and effort so what reason other than looking for a good pat on the back is there for it it should be drastically reduced, why should so much of the populations money be spent on this without their say so, especially when its had minimul impact on those its supposed to be helping.

Because we're a very rich nation that can afford to give others a dig out. It's not that long ago we were getting bilateral loans ourselves from the UK, Sweden & Denmark.

As to the effectiveness of the money spent, more likely than not a lot of it is wasted to bureaucracy and corruption. You're right there. Africa is a bit hopeless to be honest. Parts of it have the natural resources to get a leg up they just don't have the institutions/rule of law to make the most of their situation. Too much corruption. You could say - well it's up to their citizens to effect change. But at the same time - it's not easy to rise up against a well resourced/armed Govt. Even if a popular uprising were occuring, it would probably be used by another despot to sweep to power thus continuing the cycle. That's kind of my sweeping 10,000ft view of it anyway.

It isn't really correct to say its spent without our say so. It is a democracy. If it's something you feel strongly about write to your local TDs, protest outside the Dail or run for election yourself.

OttoPilot

corks finest wrote: »

Agree totally,and not saying this lighhtly, charity begins and ends at home,,,,,having worked voluntary in Romanias orphanages and aids/tb clinics for years in times past, saw first hand how the sick/poor/orphand got vv little of what was donated,and same happening in Africa for generations,no more.disagree,u obviously have never seen first hand the waste, corruption etc that goes on,end of.unfortunatley yes

The marginal benefit of spending €100k in a poor country is much greater than the marginal benefit of spending it in Ireland.

Irish Praetorian

If I could offer you some succor OP, I know when getting into this debate its easy to think what aid were giving today is the same as we were doing decades ago and that thereI have been no results. In reality there have been many great advances in the 3rd world in recent decades, so much so that its now a case fo many two dozen countries remaining in need of foreign aid, down from continents worth a few decades ago. Theres still quite a few poor places but most are now able to help themselves rather than being dependent on aid.

biko

Will someone post how much is actually spent?

Pero_Bueno

https://twitter.com/robesonblogs/status/963008274193936384

After all these scandals and then the irish ones keeping 99.999% of the money, im not surprised.

decky1

would be alright if they got all the money that was sent to then , has anyone ever seen what the CEO'S of some of these charities get. Sickening.

Mutant z

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Because we're a very rich nation that can afford to give others a dig out. It's not that long ago we were getting bilateral loans ourselves from the UK, Sweden & Denmark.

As to the effectiveness of the money spent, more likely than not a lot of it is wasted to bureaucracy and corruption. You're right there. Africa is a bit hopeless to be honest. Parts of it have the natural resources to get a leg up they just don't have the institutions/rule of law to make the most of their situation. Too much corruption. You could say - well it's up to their citizens to effect change. But at the same time - it's not easy to rise up against a well resourced/armed Govt. Even if a popular uprising were occuring, it would probably be used by another despot to sweep to power thus continuing the cycle. That's kind of my sweeping 10,000ft view of it anyway.

It isn't really correct to say its spent without our say so. It is a democracy. If it's something you feel strongly about write to your local TDs, protest outside the Dail or run for election yourself.

On the one hand we complain on the lack of resources being put into much needed services in this country and on the other spend something upwards of 650-700 million on overseas aid why not cut it in half and invest more into infrastructure in this country as you said nothing of any significance has happened to Africa in fact most of it is as poor and backwards as ever despite the obscene amounts of money thats been pumped into it so cut it significantly because its not having any impact whatsoever.

weisses

I agree with OP in regards on spending the money there ..... We should bring them over here instead

wakka12

Im glad my taxes are helping some people abroad. How horrible it must be to live in a country that cant support its own, if youre ill or unable to work and the state you were born into it just simply doesnt have the means to support you. We are in a position to help those in need, so why dont we continue doing that

baylah17

wakka12 wrote: »

Im glad my taxes are helping some people abroad. How horrible it must be to live in a country that cant support its own, if youre ill or unable to work and the state you were born into it just simply doesnt have the means to support you. We are in a position to help those in need, so why dont we continue doing that

Well said
+1

Mutant z

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

https://twitter.com/robesonblogs/status/963008274193936384

After all these scandals and then the irish ones keeping 99.999% of the money, im not surprised.

Yes NGOs are the biggest waste of space going its not surprising to hear about this sort of carry on they are simply there to enrich themselves and exploit different groups for their own agenda the whole industry is a money racket scam.

doolox

Until the last homeless person is either rehoused or sorted out and the treatment waiting lists are brought down to negligible proportions then we should not be indulging in foreign aid, pretending we are rich and can afford to.

This is like an improvident family hosting lavish dinner parties for their friends and neighbours while their own children go cold and hungry. I have seen this happen in the past and the countrys fiscal behaviour in this respect smacks of the same mentality.

Keeping up appearances.
Being the "good boy" for our masters in Europe.
Wanting to put one over by being more generous than the auld enemy.

Whatever the motive we should cut back on foreign aid until our own Homeless are housed, all our sick people are adequately treated, all our teachers are equally paid, all our nurses and doctors are properly paid and not running abroad to get properly paid. As a nation we are not in a position to shell out millions to countries without a proper account being made of the monies spent. The other countries indulging in foreign aid have benefits from that aid. US rice farmers get a big market for their rice which is shipped directly to countries paid by the US government. Do we get a market for our produce in a likewise manner?

Do we get any benefit from this foreign aid or would the money involved make enough of an impact on our urgent problems, housing and health?

Mutant z

decky1 wrote: »

would be alright if they got all the money that was sent to then , has anyone ever seen what the CEO'S of some of these charities get. Sickening.

Exactly.

AMKC

I do not think we should stop spending money abroad. It is a long term thing. Who knows how the World will change in the next 50 to 100 years. Africa might be a rich supernation by then and it could be us that's poor as well as Britain maybe even Europe getting money from them. Sure we may not be around but are descendants nieces nephews etc might be.

OttoPilot

doolox wrote: »

Until the last homeless person is either rehoused or sorted out and the treatment waiting lists are brought down to negligible proportions then we should not be indulging in foreign aid, pretending we are rich and can afford to.

This is like an improvident family hosting lavish dinner parties for their friends and neighbours while their own children go cold and hungry. I have seen this happen in the past and the countrys fiscal behaviour in this respect smacks of the same mentality.

Keeping up appearances.
Being the "good boy" for our masters in Europe.
Wanting to put one over by being more generous than the auld enemy.

Whatever the motive we should cut back on foreign aid until our own Homeless are housed, all our sick people are adequately treated, all our teachers are equally paid, all our nurses and doctors are properly paid and not running abroad to get properly paid. As a nation we are not in a position to shell out millions to countries without a proper account being made of the monies spent. The other countries indulging in foreign aid have benefits from that aid. US rice farmers get a big market for their rice which is shipped directly to countries paid by the US government. Do we get a market for our produce in a likewise manner?

Do we get any benefit from this foreign aid or would the money involved make enough of an impact on our urgent problems, housing and health?

If the cost to re-home all Ireland's homeless was equal to the cost of saving the lives of 100,000 third world people, what would you spend the money on?

Cookie_Monster

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I'm very happy to see some of my taxes go to feed starving people and to develop the world's infrastructure for a better future for everyone.

how many decades has it been going on now and yet these countries still require aid... There comes a point when you have to question the wisdom of just throwing money at the same countries and region time and time again with little in the way of improvements shown.

Victor

Mutant z wrote: »

What has foreign aid ever done to improve the standard of living in Africa anyway absolutely nothing

Check out https://ourworldindata.org/

Education - up
Life Expectancy - up
Maternal mortality - down
Malaria deaths - down

Victor

Polio - soon to be eliminated.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I've no prob with state aid if it reaches the intended targets.

I do have a prob with paying for the Ugandan foreign ministers private swimming pool


Corruption is a way of life in sub saharan Africa. We need to ensure that every last cent of our aid money is accounted for.

Id focus on the pigs at the trough running the "charities".

13 billion went to Haiti and look at it. I don't blame the people there wanting and needing help but its the ones that are supposed to be helping are making a mockery of our charitable instinct, which will have disastrous effects in the future.

OneEightSeven

The only thing foreign aid has accomplished is lowering the global average IQ because African mortality has declined and life expectancy has increased, yet boatloads of them are still coming here and forming ghettos because many have no interesting in working an honest living and the ones who do, work low-skilled jobs like driving taxis which automated vehicles will decimate in the future.

aidan24326

Ronaldinho wrote: »

As to the effectiveness of the money spent, more likely than not a lot of it is wasted to bureaucracy and corruption. You're right there. Africa is a bit hopeless to be honest. Parts of it have the natural resources to get a leg up they just don't have the institutions/rule of law to make the most of their situation. Too much corruption.

The Democratic Republic of Congo for example has one of highest reserves of natural resources of any country in the world. Oil, gas, gold, copper, diamonds, uranium, you name it they have it in abundance. They should be a wealthy country yet through a combination of local corruption/ineptitude and foreign meddling they remain one of the poorest countries in the world.

In general though, as Victor pointed out, things are improving even in what we'd consider third-world countries, and foreign aid is helping with that. We have benefited greatly from foreign aid ourselves. People forget that we were a poor country not too long ago and look at us now, ranked in the top 10 countries in the world by GDP per capita, Human Development Index etc

Irish Guitarist

The government should bring aid workers here from Africa to build shacks for the homeless.

Samuel T. Cogley

OneEightSeven wrote: »

The only thing foreign aid has accomplished is lowering the global average IQ because African mortality has declined and life expectancy has increased, yet boatloads of them are still coming here and forming ghettos because many have no interesting in working an honest living and the ones who do, work low-skilled jobs like driving taxis which automated vehicles will decimate in the future.

Who are these 91 people with the 10,000,000,000 IQ? :pac:

topper75

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I'm very happy to see some of my taxes go to feed starving people and to develop the world's infrastructure for a better future for everyone.

So this better future for everyone - when is the target date for that? We keep paying taxes to this - but they still starve generation after generation. At what point are you forced to admit that something is missing from the picture? Black holes aren't confined to physics sadly.

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Because we're a very rich nation that can afford to give others a dig out. It's not that long ago we were getting bilateral loans ourselves from the UK, Sweden & Denmark.

I don't think our foreign aid is given as loans though. Why loans to help this country but money simply handed over to help others? The two strategies yield different attitudes and behaviours over time. What are we sowing with this?

OttoPilot wrote: »

The marginal benefit of spending €100k in a poor country is much greater than the marginal benefit of spending it in Ireland.

Which would be great. If you were running the entire world!

_Kaiser_

As I've said before on this issue, we have more than enough serious problems at home without trying to save the world as well.

It's even more ridiculous that the Government was giving away hundreds of millions in foreign aid during the height of the recession - money which then had to be replaced by borrowing and paying interest on those loans.

It's also been mentioned above that it's questionable just how much of this aid actually makes it to the people who really need it, and how much is diverted to cushy salaries or to some warlord's militia fund.

If an individual wants to contribute to a cause they believe in then that's fair enough, and if we as a nation were in a position where we could contribute without having to sacrifice needs at home or getting into (more) debt by doing so then that's fair enough too - but we're not.

Charity does indeed begin at home.. And that doesn't include bringing these people (or those just seeking better prospects) here either.

stanley1980

I'm more than happy for my taxes to help those who need it in Ireland and abroad. I'm not saying this of the OP but in my experience, some people who whinge about giving money to foreign causes bemoan giving it to local charities too!
There will always be homelessness (a far more complex issue than some posters here may wish to acknowledge) and other problems in Ireland- always has been no matter how much money is spent so I find that argument pretty nonsensical. Anyway, comparing the curreent issues here re:affordable housing to the situation in war-torn and poverty stricken countries is just a red herring. Obviously the issue of where and how effectively the money we donate is spent is perfectly legimate however.

Graces7

Depends on how you see Ireland. As a world member with all that that entails ie responsibility for others in other lands, or a little inward looking islandt

Agree totlly re the big charities . I give to and work for a smaller group who do great work and take almost nothing for themselves.

facehugger99

If you've ever traveled to poorer parts of the world, you wouldn't begrudge people the pittance we pay out on foreign aid.

The amount of whinging Irish people do over how bad we have it is fcuking embarrassing. We leave in a very stable, wealthy country and we should be so grateful for it. I've worked in India, and I've seen families with literally nothing, no food, no fcuking clothes no access to health and education and no hope that things will improve either. Little kids growing up like that with no future other than fear, cold and hunger. It's really horrible.

I try and give what I can to some charities that help, I'm no saint by any means, but it really makes my blood boil when people suggest that we give less money to try and help these people.

Chancer3001

facehugger99 wrote: »

. I've worked in India, and I've seen families with literally nothing, no food, no fcuking clothes no access to health and education and no hope that things will improve either. Little kids growing up like that with no future other than fear, cold and hunger. It's really horrible.

I hate this. If you have no food no clothes nothing....why in the name of god are you having kids ? Why not take some god damn responsibility and ease the burden

topper75

Graces7 wrote: »

Depends on how you see Ireland. As a world member with all that that entails ie responsibility for others in other lands, or a little inward looking islandt

Agree totlly re the big charities . I give to and work for a smaller group who do great work and take almost nothing for themselves.

Don't you see something inherently wrong though with a rush to take 'responsibility for others in other lands' when their own vile leaders ditch their responsibilities decade after decade?

It is best that we avoid a false equation between being careful to optimise the spending of our limited revenue with being 'inward looking'.

Yes we are a little island. It would be silly to pretend otherwise about that.

whisky_galore

facehugger99 wrote: »

If you've ever traveled to poorer parts of the world, you wouldn't begrudge people the pittance we pay out on foreign aid.

The amount of whinging Irish people do over how bad we have it is fcuking embarrassing. We leave in a very stable, wealthy country and we should be so grateful for it. I've worked in India, and I've seen families with literally nothing, no food, no fcuking clothes no access to health and education and no hope that things will improve either. Little kids growing up like that with no future other than fear, cold and hunger. It's really horrible.

I try and give what I can to some charities that help, I'm no saint by any means, but it really makes my blood boil when people suggest that we give less money to try and help these people.

What are the Indian government doing about it? They'll spend millions on defence and still have the begging bowl out.

Graces7

whisky_galore wrote: »

What are the Indian government doing about it? They'll spend millions on defence and still have the begging bowl out.

The govt do not care any more than they seem to do here . Same as here it is the smaller charities who do such good .

Always the very poor get neglected.,,,refuse to let them die from the sins of their govt

Graces7

topper75 wrote: »

Don't you see something inherently wrong though with a rush to take 'responsibility for others in other lands' when their own vile leaders ditch their responsibilities decade after decade?

It is best that we avoid a false equation between being careful to optimise the spending of our limited revenue with being 'inward looking'.

Yes we are a little island. It would be silly to pretend otherwise about that.

I am not judging as you are. See a hungry child anywhere? feed that child. Nothing I can do re govts but I can support the saving of babies.

Not a ? of "taking responsibility. Just caring.

We may be a small island but we insist on trying to be a world force and that brings.. yes , responsibility . I meant that we should not cut off from the wider world and expetc the world to treat us as a real country

Graces7

whisky_galore wrote: »

What are the Indian government doing about it? They'll spend millions on defence and still have the begging bowl out.

The needy have the "begging bowl "out. The govt do not care

Gatling

whisky_galore wrote: »

What are the Indian government doing about it? They'll spend millions on defence and still have the begging bowl out.

Don't forget about their space program too

ReReginald Perrin

No matter how many homeless shelters we build there will always be homeless people. There will always be heroin addicts. We already have a ridiculously generous welfare system. We have full employment. I’d rather give my money to foreign aid than giving even more money to Sharon who is “homeless” living in a 4 star hotel, so Jayden and Tyler can live near their Granny.

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

If you've ever traveled to poorer parts of the world, you wouldn't begrudge people the pittance we pay out on foreign aid.

This, a million times. I've stared real, abject poverty in the face on a visit to Cambodia. Children with huge python snakes on their necks for westerners to take photos of them, very young teenage girls working in brothels and walking around with Western male adults, loads and loads of crippled people from war.... Fúck me, it's a game changer.

We had real poverty in Ireland in the 1920s and, to a lesser extent in the 1930s (due to DeValera's government being much more involved in redistributing wealth than was the CnaG government of the 1920s). In 1927 somebody walked into a house in West Cork and found all four members of an O'Sullivan family in Ardrigole dead... from starvation. This incident only came to prominence because Peadar O'Donnell wrote a successful play, Ardrigoole (1929) based on it.

O'Donnell's third novel, Adrigoole, followed quickly in the summer of 1929. It is the gloomiest and most pessimistic of his books, which is understandable given its inspiration - the deaths from starvation of a couple, the O'Sullivans, and two of their children in Adrigole, County Cork, two years previously. (Source)

Podcast: 1925 – Ireland’s Forgotten Famine?

Ireland’s forgotten famine of 1925 – Irish government covered up calamity

Irish Famine of 1925

Given our history, it's always a sign of a huge disconnect from their own tradition when Irish people are so nonchalant, indeed hostile, towards other humans who are enduring poverty.

stanley1980

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I hate this. If you have no food no clothes nothing....why in the name of god are you having kids ? Why not take some god damn responsibility and ease the burden

For myriad reasons e.g. little or no social welfare system or pension to support you, no access to contraception, poor education, multitude of other cultural reasons. Why didn't Irish people in the 19th Century/Famine era and beyond have less children? same answer.

Chancer3001

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Is it not an eu directive that we have to ?

My dear chap, all the bad things are as a result of an EU Directive and don't you forget it. Snortle.

Yours,

Boris, Michael, Nigel, Jacob and company

beefburrito

If we stopped being charitable and supporting the financially challenged, sure the CEOs wouldn't get their well deserved 250,000+ salaries.
The admin staff would have no job's.
And the chuggers would be left jobless.

Nothing to see here folks

Graces7

ReReginald Perrin wrote: »

No matter how many homeless shelters we build there will always be homeless people. There will always be heroin addicts. We already have a ridiculously generous welfare system. We have full employment. I’d rather give my money to foreign aid than giving even more money to Sharon who is “homeless” living in a 4 star hotel, so Jayden and Tyler can live near their Granny.

disagree re "ridiculously generous" Agree with the rest of your post.

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

This, a million times. I've stared real, abject



Given our history, it's always a sign of a huge disconnect from their own tradition when Irish people are so nonchalant, indeed hostile, towards other humans who are enduring poverty.

I think maybe some of this is fear? Of falling back into that? Race memories die hard. And we still have old folk who remember some of this.

My own background is UK , poor but viable. A very different matter.

Icepick

No it should not. It should reform its welfare system though.

Amalgam

Aren't some of the governments siphoning off up to %80 of aid before it *ahem* trickles down to the civilian on the street?

I don't mind promoting health education, but the days of sending out Nuns and Brothers should be over..

There were rather odd YouTube ads alleging that certain Irish charities were spending over %70 on administration and buildings, here in Ireland. Amnesty was one of the charities mentioned. Oxfam have had this issue in the UK as well.

I view some charities as sinkholes for certain South Dublin types to drop their offspring into, too refined to work in a warehouse, to dim to become doctors.

I do not give to charity, the government gives on my behalf..