Carb loading/ Exercise on an empty stomach

Mink

Really unsure of whether should be exercising fasted, lots of carbs taken on board an hour before, or sports drinks during the workout?? Just want to see what others are doing to get the best out of their performance.

The workouts I'm doing are an hours worth of HIIT/Metcon stuff - in a class setting - so there's absolutely no let up from the trainers.

I generally struggle to generate the energy to really go for it, I sometimes get a second wind about halfway through.

The other day my friend gave me a few big slugs of a sports drink type thing and I was like a duracell bunny banging out the burpees after that - but sports drinks are hardly the solution when I want to be getting myself to generate the energy?

Husband is big into carb loading but that's because he's doing gym and football several times a week and he can't stay running round the pitch unless he's carb loaded earlier in the day (pasta, porridge etc)

I've seen some suggestions of exercising in a fasted state - the thought of that terrifies me as I wake up ravenous and start to feel nauseous if I've not eaten within an hour of waking.

At the moment I'm doing my workouts about 1 hour after porridge with berries (in the morning) or evening is after a banana (and a reasonably good sized lunch earlier in the day).

I'd say about 2 hours before eat some carbs. Your porridge is good. I use vitargo during workouts if i haven't eaten much, that will keep me going, might work for you

You say you want to get yourself to generate energy but it's gona come from food either way so best to find out which way works for you while fitting into your overall nutrition for the day

Mink

Thanks, might give that a go.
Much better workout this evening as had a more substantial lunch than usual.

I struggle with the morning ones but might try getting up a bit earlier so can get a bit more into me beforehand.

ford2600

Mink wrote: »

Really unsure of whether should be exercising fasted, lots of carbs taken on board an hour before, or sports drinks during the workout?? Just want to see what others are doing to get the best out of their performance.

Why do you train, for competitive performance or for health/wellbeing/weight loss?

Some drink loaded with sugar and caffeine will improve your performance in next session and might be a useful tool occasionally if you fall into the former category rather than the latter.

If you fall into the latter and want to lose weight, feel better etc then some sugar/caffeine laden drink isn't a good idea.

Our energy levels are dependant on a lot of things; sleep quality, stress levels, stage of training cycle, training intensity etc etc. The modern sports food industry has helped paint a rather depressing vision of our vulnerability to not been constantly topped up with some energy food or other.

Unless you are doing very intense sessions back to back, (5-7 days a week) which you probably shouldn't be for the health/well being category, then you should have adequate glycogen reserves for your sessions without anything other than a good quality diet.

When you wake in the morning, you should have the metabolic flexibility, to get through an hour's exercise without breakfast. If you have spent your entire life having a breakfast as soon as waking then you'll have most likely a constricted flexibility in that regard.

An hour intense exercise might burn 800 calories, even if all that came from glycogen(which it won't), you still shouldn't be depleted at the end of your session.

You have the benefit of 100,000 of years hardware to provide you with enough energy for your sessions without having to top up at every turn. Your lifestyle to date has most of that hardware turned off

Chancer3001

High intensity generally requires carbs

I'd eat before doing hiit

I'd also take bcaas

Alf Veedersane

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I'd also take bcaas

Why?

Sangre

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Why?

B-caaz.

Chancer3001

Because working out with bcaas before the workout has scientific backup for greater muscle gain than working out without them

Alf Veedersane

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Because working out with bcaas before the workout has scientific backup for greater muscle gain than working out without them

I suggest you delve into those studies a bit further and what they say about protein intake aside from the BCAAs.

Chancer3001

I've delved.

Fasted training with bcaa gives much better results than fasted training without bcaa

Blacktie.

O been a while since BCAAs have come up. Popcorn at the ready.

Chancer3001

im saying use them if youre training fasted.

Alf Veedersane

Chancer3001 wrote: »

im saying use them if youre training fasted.

And you want to waste your money.

Or you're a rodent that likes reading studies.

Mink

Thanks all.

Don't know if would go there with the BCAA's as trying to get everything I need from a good clean diet - which is going well.

I've figured out for myself that if I carb up a bit the night before and have brekkie (I actually don't think I could handle doing anything without eating something in the morning) then the morning work-outs are good.

I carb up at lunch and then evening workouts are better.

Generally trying to build strength and lower body fat % and I've seen a good change in this past two weeks as I cleaned up diet a bit more again and also dug deeper on the work outs.

If I were to do any competing I probably would get some energy drinks. The work out mentioned in OP where my friend gave me one of these drinks was a charity fundraiser so we were all really giving it socks and I burnt out.

Chancer3001

So you eat before bed.

And eat breakfast.

Then work out.

Wouldn't really call this carb loading or exercising on an empty stomach.

Thread title has me a bit confused

Mink

Sorry, it's not very clear. I think what I was really asking was whether it's a better idea to work out fasted in the morning.

And the secondary question was about drinks for energy during the workout itself.

ford2600

Mink wrote: »

Sorry, it's not very clear. I think what I was really asking was whether it's a better idea to work out fasted in the morning.

Your body adapts by stressing it and then letting it recover; be the aim to get stronger, faster, lighter, more metabolically flexible whatever.

So when you ask is fasted in morning better it would depend on what your goals are? If you want to be less slave like in your need to constantly top up, getting past the idea/feeling that you can't go an hour without breakfast would probably be a good idea.(If you are a diabetic then ignore the last bit).

You probably don't have an ancestor before the 20th Century who didn't regularly have to fast and yet led active non sedentary lives. A lifestyle where one is constantly grazing, a mindset that believes it is necessary will make all the adaptations to fasting redundant.

The whole idea of carb loading to go to the gym and play 5 a side is a result of about 40 years of a low fat mantra and sports food company pushing their nonsense. It is self perpetuating;if you constantly top up you will feel the need to do so.

Your brain will conserve fat burning if food is constantly being thrown in.

A bottle of gatorade with it's sugar and caffeine will have a physical and psychological/placebo effect. While it would have been a brilliant thing for Peter Sagan to do last Sunday on Paris Roubaix, it is not so good for an ordinary person trying to stay fit.

Freeing yourself from the need to constantly eat allows one complete control over when and what you eat; bye bye convenience food and contracting out of your food preparation when travelling, to bust for breakfast etc.

I was curious last summer after a 24hr fast about how slow I would be on a hard climb on bike. It took 16 minutes, my best ever (with more specific training is 13mins) but 16 is pretty close to what I do it lately fed or not.
https://www.strava.com/segments/656146

Before trying a fasted workout try a sedentary morning first on a rest day. Drink water when you "feel" hungry. Pretty quickly your brain will get the message.

On evening sessions, have a decent lunch and a piece of fruit something small an hour or so before. There is a fairy famous study of cyclist drinking but not swallowing a sports drink and it's positive effect on performance. something to do with sugar receptors in mouth and fooling the body by thinking sugar was inbound!

jive

Mink wrote: »

Sorry, it's not very clear. I think what I was really asking was whether it's a better idea to work out fasted in the morning.

And the secondary question was about drinks for energy during the workout itself.

I cycle 10km to gym in morning and do ~1hr workout. No need to eat beforehand or during. All the pre, intra and post workout nonsense is overblown. Eat good whole foods and take in enough calories, not sexy and it won’t sell but it’s what works.

Alf Veedersane

Mink wrote: »

Sorry, it's not very clear. I think what I was really asking was whether it's a better idea to work out fasted in the morning.

And the secondary question was about drinks for energy during the workout itself.

It's not 'better' to work out fasted. If you workout fasted and you get your work done, then so be it. If you feel better and get more out of your workout with food on board, so be it.

Energy drinks aren't necessary. Certainly not in terms of a 1or 2 hour long workout.

Macy0161

ford2600 wrote: »

So when you ask is fasted in morning better it would depend on what your goals are? If you want to be less slave like in your need to constantly top up, getting past the idea/feeling that you can't go an hour without breakfast would probably be a good idea.(If you are a diabetic then ignore the last bit).

I thought "fasted" really meant glycogen depleted. My understanding is that skipping breakfast/ working out on an empty stomach isn't (necessarily) the same as fasted?

Blacktie.

Macy0161 wrote:

I thought "fasted" really meant glycogen depleted. My understanding is that skipping breakfast/ working out on an empty stomach isn't (necessarily) the same as fasted?

But for most people skipping breakfast would be glycogen depleted. You use up glycogen stores over night and your body switches to fat stores.

ford2600

Macy0161 wrote: »

I thought "fasted" really meant glycogen depleted. My understanding is that skipping breakfast/ working out on an empty stomach isn't (necessarily) the same as fasted?

If you skip breaking your fast you are fasted no?

For someone like me who is 4 or 5 years playing around with it, whether fast until lunchtime and then train it'll matter very little. For someone like OP who is nauseated within an hour of being up it is a very different thing.

Glycogen depleted(liver low, and muscles low) and attempting circuit training/metcons is not really a good idea; you'll train like ****e and feel ****e. The point is if you wake after a sedentary day previously, who shouldn't (if remotely metabolically flexible) be glycogen depleted. Glycogen in your muscles gets there via a non return valve and will be there unless used for activity. Sedentary activity can be powered easily by fat. It all end up as ATP

I grew up dairy farming; breakfast for all local farmers who have been after at least an hours labour plus maybe 2 miles walking. Getting up and doing stuff used to be the norm. Now we are afraid to go outside the door without eating some refined carb junk in a bright box

ford2600

Blacktie. wrote: »

But for most people skipping breakfast would be glycogen depleted. You use up glycogen stores over night and your body switches to fat stores.

No you shouldn't bar you were at a party at Paddy Jacksons or the like.

Low glycogen being the only cue for hunger/appetite is a myth

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2016/09/do-blood-glucose-levels-affect-hunger.html

Macy0161

Blacktie. wrote:

But for most people skipping breakfast would be glycogen depleted. You use up glycogen stores over night and your body switches to fat stores.

I thought it was more complex than that tbh, but the latest stuff I've read/ heard on it didn't really convince me it was fully supported. Anything I've read also suggested "fasted" was more suited to endurance workouts at a low intensity.

Mellor

Blacktie. wrote: »

But for most people skipping breakfast would be glycogen depleted. You use up glycogen stores over night and your body switches to fat stores.

You get about 20 miles into a marathon before you deplete glycogen.
You need 24+ hours of sleep to burn that much energy.

Chancer3001

Mellor wrote: »

You get about 20 miles into a marathon before you deplete glycogen.
You need 24+ hours of sleep to burn that much energy.

Going by the latest studies , you don't deplete the glycogen fully at all.

martha42

Any ideas about eating before/after swimming? I swim 5 days a week and eat 2h before and then have a banana after. Is it optimal for getting better endurance/strength etc?

ford2600

Mellor wrote: »

You get about 20 miles into a marathon before you deplete glycogen.
You need 24+ hours of sleep to burn that much energy.

Where are you getting the 20 miles from? Seems awful precise for something with so many variables

I'd imagine Zack Bitter (USA 100 mile record holder in under 12 hours) would run a couple of marathons at 3hr paced completely fasted; he was one of 20 in small study linked below. Your run of the mill club runner, a high carb diet no fasted training and constantly refueling wouldn't get within an asses roar of 20 miles.

Have personally done 180/190km on bike fully fasted at the start of 300/400km plus events without issue but that is after adaption through training and diet

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

On a side note pro cyclist do some fasted training but it's typically not for fat adaption. The reason pro cyclists do it is probably on the basis of this and similar studies
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4886170/
"CHO restriction before and during exercise induces work‐efficient cell signaling related to mitochondrial biogenesis"

Vaughters was doing it with his teams nearly 20 years ago. He chose Dan Martin over Nicolas Roche when they were young riders.

Jonathan Vaughters has always thought outside the box when it comes to the business of recruiting for his teams. In the spring of 2007, two Irishmen entered his radar – Nicolas Roche and Daniel Martin. The bloodline was fascinating: Roche (23) was the son of a former world champion and Tour de France winner: Martin (21) was his cousin. For Vaughters, it was an absolute no-brainer – Daniel Martin was destined for greatness. Why? It was in his blood.

This is how he explains it: "Mitochondria, which is the energy factory for the body, is the single biggest genetic factor for determining great endurance athletes. More than heart size, lung size, haematocrit, whatever . . . mitochondrial DNA is only passed via the female.

"If you're a male, you have your mother's mitochondrial DNA, but it ends with you. Your son will not have it. So, Dan Martin has the same mitochondrial DNA as Stephen Roche, via (his mother) Stephen's sister."

martha42 wrote: »

Any ideas about eating before/after swimming? I swim 5 days a week and eat 2h before and then have a banana after. Is it optimal for getting better endurance/strength etc?

Try doing a short low intensity session fasted; eat well the night before and have food organised for after and bring water; eggs and porridge would be a good breakfast after. As much adaptation is in head as physiological.

Mellor

ford2600 wrote: »

Where are you getting the 20 miles from? Seems awful precise for something with so many variables

Precise? It's very odd to assume I meant exactly 20miles for every single person, every single time - unless you just wanted an argument
It's a rough round number, if it ended up being 18.56 miles the point doesn't change.

I'd imagine Zack Bitter (USA 100 mile record holder in under 12 hours) would run a couple of marathons at 3hr paced completely fasted;

I'm sure he would. But I'm not why you think that's relevant. If he was completely fasted, he'd deplete quicker and keep going unphased.

Have personally done 180/190km on bike fully fasted at the start of 300/400km plus events without issue but that is after adaption through training and diet

Great. Also not sure of the point there.
Nobody is suggesting you collapse when glycogen depletes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...26049515003340

That's a study on keto athletes - which makes it completely irrelevant.
And I'm saying that as keto guy myself.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4886170/

At completion both groups were depleted. Which backs up my position.
Honestly, I stopped there as you either missed the point, or just wanted to post an argument about training fasted. By all means post the info, but don't present it to some sort of amazing elite athlete counter to anything I said.


I'm pretty sure somebody essentially the same mistakes in a previous thread, strong suspicion we've had these posts before.

ThinkProgress

If your diet is on point, and your meal timing is consistent in the evening... there is no logical reason why you should not be able to get a decent workout in the morning before eating!

I think it's mostly just a mental barrier, that people think they can't function without their bowl of cereal or toast in the morning etc.

I actually cannot eat anything in the morning if I'm doing an intense workout. I will feel sluggish and potentially nauseous if I try to consume anything...

SeeMoreBut

No reason to carb load for an hour session or have breakfast if doing in morning.

Train yourself not to require it if you find it hard.

Hear stories of people carb loading for 5kms because they heard it.

When it comes to exercise good warm up and cool down before the main session. When finished eat asap after it. Proper food and drink and you’ll be fine.

Mink

ThinkProgress wrote: »

If your diet is on point, and your meal timing is consistent in the evening... there is no logical reason why you should not be able to get a decent workout in the morning before eating!

I think it's mostly just a mental barrier, that people think they can't function without their bowl of cereal or toast in the morning etc.

I'm starting to think it's mental, I get into a slight panic that I'm going to tank during whatever exercise I'm doing if I don't eat exactly the right thing at the right time.

I think the best thing is I just get fitter

ford2600

Mellor wrote: »

Precise? It's very odd to assume I meant exactly 20miles for every single person, every single time - unless you just wanted an argument
It's a rough round number, if it ended up being 18.56 miles the point doesn't change.


I'm sure he would. But I'm not why you think that's relevant. If he was completely fasted, he'd deplete quicker and keep going unphased.


Great. Also not sure of the point there.
Nobody is suggesting you collapse when glycogen depletes.


That's a study on keto athletes - which makes it completely irrelevant.
And I'm saying that as keto guy myself.


At completion both groups were depleted. Which backs up my position.
Honestly, I stopped there as you either missed the point, or just wanted to post an argument about training fasted. By all means post the info, but don't present it to some sort of amazing elite athlete counter to anything I said.


I'm pretty sure somebody essentially the same mistakes in a previous thread, strong suspicion we've had these posts before.

I looking for an argument, I asked you a simple question where you got the 20 miles from? Are you that conceited/insecure that you can't answer a simple question without being affronted? If you want an argument, which from memory you are rather fond of try someone else.

How can anything back up your position when your posting to date was one single sentence (about the 20 miles).

The range could be (for most average club runners) at lot less than 20 miles and even for, non keto but fat adapted, athletes a lot more than 20 miles. The range is huge to make putting a single number on it pretty pointless even with a vague "about".

Ask anyone who has ever done endurance running/swimming/cycling etc about the bonk. People are terrified of it and a whole sports energy is built on it. If you had bothered to read OP you would have seen the lady who started thread seems to be pretty terrified of it to.

Most of the rest of my post had nothing to do with you. Someone less narcissistic in nature might have been able to spot that; seems you struggle there. It was an explanation of why pro cyclist do fasted training which has nothing to do with fat adaptation and has been used for years hence the mention of Vaughters.

As far as I'm aware I don't need your permission to post here so you can dispense with that passive aggressive sh1te to.

Mellor

ford2600 wrote: »

I looking for an argument, I asked you a simple question where you got the 20 miles from? Are you that conceited/insecure that you can't answer a simple question without being affronted?

I answered you in the first paragraph.

Mellor wrote: »

It's a rough round number, if it ended up being 18.56 miles the point doesn't change.

The range could be (for most average club runners) at lot less than 20 miles and even for, non keto but fat adapted, athletes a lot more than 20 miles. The range is huge to make putting a single number on it pretty pointless even with a vague "about".

For me, 32km (20miles) is 2400 cals, 20km is 1500cals
The range isn't important, the point was that 600cals you burn while you sleep are rarely going to see you waking up glycogen depleted. That was the point of my post in its entirety - I'd be surprised if you actually disagreed with that, yet here we are.

Ask anyone who has ever done endurance running/swimming/cycling etc about the bonk. People are terrified of it and a whole sports energy is built on it. If you had bothered to read OP you would have seen the lady who started thread seems to be pretty terrified of it to.

Most of the rest of my post had nothing to do with you. Someone less narcissistic in nature might have been able to spot that; seems you struggle there. It was an explanation of why pro cyclist do fasted training which has nothing to do with fat adaptation and has been used for years hence the mention of Vaughters.

As far as I'm aware I don't need your permission to post here so you can dispense with that passive aggressive sh1te to.

The reason for pointing that out was to alleviate the OP's fears. You are free to post whatever and wherever you can't. Doesn't bother me. I post here to help people who want help. It's ironic that you call me insecure, aggressive, etc, yet you're the one posting insults. :rolleyes:


@Mink, I'm just back from an hour long session at 6am, 8 hours since I ate, and a few days since I had anything carby. You'll be fine to train fasted, or equally fine if want to eat first. Do what makes you comfortable

Chancer3001

This is why the internet doesn't work