Wrong Fixed Penalty - Red Light

km991148

Can I confirm - is the fixed penalty for RLJ still 40euro?*
It seems someone I know got stopped on the bike, but received the notice for motor vehicles (and therefore 80euro).

This person is anticipating a ton of bureaucracy and cannot be arsed with the hassle - what options are available?

- Pay the 80 quid mistaken fine
- ignore the letter - waste time with court etc
- call the ticket issuing authority (probably another waste of time)

-- ?? what else?



*yes yes cyclists are evil, red light jumpers are straight from nazi germany etc etc

seamus

There's a form on the back where you can dispute/appeal the fine. There's a fixed list of reasons you can dispute the fine on, one of these is "material detection error", which you use to claim that the circumstances in which the fine has been issued do not match the reality.

Since your friend was not caught breaking a red light on a motor vehicle, the fine is invalid and this is a material detection error.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

Steoller

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/331/made/en/pdf
40 euro, confirmed

plodder

This is what I'd do:

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

They might cancel and re-issue it, or they might not, or they might cancel it and not re-issue :cool:

Either way, keep copies of all communication in case you(r friend) do(es) end up in court.

km991148

At this stage my friend is tempted to pay the 80quid- the thought of going to court (day off work etc) is even worse!

Tenzor07

km991148 wrote: »

It seems someone I know got stopped on the bike, but received the notice for motor vehicles (and therefore 80euro).

Strange, did they present a car driving license as a form or I.D and have they been informed about penalty points. Was there a car license plate written on the ticket?

km991148

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Strange, did they present a car driving license as a form or I.D and have they been informed about penalty points. Was there a car license plate written on the ticket?

They presented a non Irish driving licence as ID and the penalty reads:

"Contrary to Section 35(5) of the Road Traffic Act, 1994 involving the driving or use of a mechanically propelled vehicle bearing identification mark PEDALCYCLE in a public place at XXX"

The officer stated that a 40euro fine would follow.

magicbastarder

looks like the cop may not have known how to issue the fine and used the wrong form?

plodder

If it went to court, the case would have to be thrown out though.

km991148

plodder wrote: »

If it went to court, the case would have to be thrown out though.

ye feck that - waiting around court all day, missing out on wage etc

cython

If issued the FCN for a mechanically propelled vehicle failing to obey a traffic lights, there's an associated 3 penalty points that will probably have to go somewhere if it is paid? So definitely worth contesting

Eamonnator

plodder wrote: »

This is what I'd do:

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

They might cancel and re-issue it, or they might not, or they might cancel it and not re-issue :cool:

Either way, keep copies of all communication in case you(r friend) do(es) end up in court.

It may be out of time to re-issue the notice.
Well worth while giving it a shot.

plodder

cython wrote: »

If issued the FCN for a mechanically propelled vehicle failing to obey a traffic lights, there's an associated 3 penalty points that will probably have to go somewhere if it is paid? So definitely worth contesting

Forgot about that aspect. Three points could affect insurance. Honestly, even call the phone number at that page and explain the situation. Apart from anything else the garda who issued the wrong ticket will look foolish in court, if it got that far.

km991148

Jesus - my friend rang them and they didnt seem surprised at all it was for a bicycle. The guard at the time was being a bit arsey - I wonder if this is just a sneaky way of being a pr!ck..

Form needs to get filled out - but surely they cannot issue something that clearly defines a mechanically propelled vehicle for something that is not.

plodder

km991148 wrote: »

Jesus - my friend rang them and they didnt seem surprised at all it was for a bicycle. The guard at the time was being a bit arsey - I wonder if this is just a sneaky way of being a pr!ck..

They don't always have the best of customer relations niceties. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Form needs to get filled out - but surely they cannot issue something that clearly defines a mechanically propelled vehicle for something that is not.

The point is they have issued it, and it will chug through the system leading to a day in court, which if you want to avoid you have to follow the defined procedure, which means returning the form.

TallGlass

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

km991148

TallGlass wrote: »

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

I really hope this is not the case!

cython

TallGlass wrote: »

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

km991148 wrote: »

I really hope this is not the case!

I don't believe there is a provision for it, but the OP is about a FCN being issued (erroneously by all indications) for a motoring offence committed while cycling a bicycle, so if you essentially accept the charge/offence by paying the fine, then you may well be accepting the points, as I believe that payment of said notices requires the licence number to be provided as well for allocation of the points?

Macy0161

cython wrote:

I don't believe there is a provision for it, but the OP is about a FCN being issued (erroneously by all indications) for a motoring offence committed while cycling a bicycle, so if you essentially accept the charge/offence by paying the fine, then you may well be accepting the points, as I believe that payment of said notices requires the licence number to be provided as well for allocation of the points?

And if a non Irish licence, the points will be put on an Irish licence should they ever convert.

Lumen

Macy0161 wrote: »

And if a non Irish licence, the points will be put on an Irish licence should they ever convert.

In theory.

In practice, this was not my experience.

Wishbone Ash

TallGlass wrote: »

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

A Sergeant in the Traffic Corps who stopped me one night in Lusk seems to believe so.

He asked me to produce ID and I refused on the basis that I had no obligation to do so on a bicycle (I was feeling bolshy at the time - long story). He then asked me if I had a driving licence and when I responded in the affirmative he asked me to produce it. I told him I didn't have it with me. He then said that I was lucky as otherwise he would be putting points on it if I had produced it.

The mind boggles. :eek:

Eamonnator

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

A Sergeant in the Traffic Corps who stopped me one night in Lusk seems to believe so.

He asked me to produce ID and I refused on the basis that I had no obligation to do so on a bicycle (I was feeling bolshy at the time - long story). He then asked me if I had a driving licence and when I responded in the affirmative he asked me to produce it. I told him I didn't have it with me. He then said that I was lucky as otherwise he would be putting points on it if I had produced it.

The mind boggles. :eek:

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

Wishbone Ash

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

Well that's me educated! Seems strange all the same as the punishment would weigh much more heavily on a cyclist who also drives regularly compared to one who doesn't.

Leaving that aside, I still don't understand the Sergeant's rationale that I was lucky not to have produced the licence as somehow this enabled me to avoid points. If that was the case, it could be argued that it would be in everyone's interest not to produce a licence.

stimpson

km991148 wrote: »

I really hope this is not the case!

Surely you mean your friend really hopes this is not the case?

Eamonnator

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Well that's me educated! Seems strange all the same as the punishment would weigh much more heavily on a cyclist who also drives regularly compared to one who doesn't.

Leaving that aside, I still don't understand the Sergeant's rationale that I was lucky not to have produced the licence as somehow this enabled me to avoid points. If that was the case, it could be argued that it would be in everyone's interest not to produce a licence.

Speaking as a retired Traffic Corps Sergeant, I don't understand his rationale either.
And if I were stopped on my bike, for committing a traffic offence, the last thing I would do is admit that I had a driving licence.

stimpson

Eamonnator wrote: »

Speaking as a retired Traffic Corps Sergeant, I don't understand his rationale either.
And if I were stopped on my bike, for committing a traffic offence, the last thing I would do is admit that I had a driving licence.

Is it not an offence to lie to a Garda?

Eamonnator

stimpson wrote: »

Is it not an offence to lie to a Garda?

Whe I was young Garda, I was given the following advice:
Admit, what cannot be denied.
Deny, what cannot be proved.
And, when in doubt, say nothing.

fritzelly

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

Well I'll be damned, never knew that - funny in too many ways
But...I think it should be the case

magicbastarder

stimpson wrote: »

Is it not an offence to lie to a Garda?

i've had gardai lie to me, or invent information i'd given them. the thing is, they can do that with impunity, but i can't.

plodder

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

I wonder what he was actually charged with. I guess the fact he crashed into someone's car put it into another category that's a bit different from the OP whose friend just broke a red light with no other consequences.

fritzelly

plodder wrote: »

I wonder what he was actually charged with. I guess the fact he crashed into someone's car put it into another category that's a bit different from the OP whose friend just broke a red light with no other consequences.

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights, maybe not hurt anyone but what about the car that had to break nearly causing an accident or the pedestrian who nearly got whalloped and so on.
No if's but when but woeful cycle lanes in Ireland don't help...
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106577607&postcount=900

Eamonnator

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've had gardai lie to me, or invent information i'd given them. the thing is, they can do that with impunity, but i can't.

I've had offenders lie to me, perjure themselves in court and gotten away with it, and been unable to do anything about it.

magicbastarder

ah yeah, at least you should expect that from the scrotes.

plodder

fritzelly wrote: »

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights, maybe not hurt anyone but what about the car that had to break nearly causing an accident or the pedestrian who nearly got whalloped and so on.
No if's but when but woeful cycle lanes in Ireland don't help...
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106577607&postcount=900

Sure. The whole point of the thread is that the OP was thinking of paying the 80 euro fine for a car breaking a red light when it should have been 40 euro for a bike. It sounds like he was accepting the correct penalty, as I think he should.

Eamonnator

magicbastarder wrote: »

ah yeah, at least you should expect that from the scrotes.

It's funny that, but the people, that sprang to mind, when I was posting, were people who would be considered as pillars of the community. I tended to expect it from the stores and forget it.

CeilingFly

Macy0161 wrote: »

And if a non Irish licence, the points will be put on an Irish licence should they ever convert.

Nope, that changed. The points are registered to you at the address you give for a period of 3 years. If a licence is registered by you in that period, the remaining time is applied to your licence.

magicbastarder

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

interestingly, the caption on the photo mentions an intended appeal; any way to check if such an appeal was lodged?

sy_flembeck

magicbastarder wrote: »

interestingly, the caption on the photo mentions an intended appeal; any way to check if such an appeal was lodged?

I must say John Cully, 38, of Pleasant Street, Dublin (but originally from Ballyfermot), does look very annoyed about the whole thing. He's even folded his arms!

fritzelly

sy_flembeck wrote: »

I must say John Cully, 38, of Pleasant Street, Dublin (but originally from Ballyfermot), does look very annoyed about the whole thing. He's even folded his arms!

Surprised he is able to even lift his arm to cross his arms, must be really annoyed to break thru that pain barrier

The end of that article is very funny tho.

Kaisr Sose

km991148 wrote: »

ye feck that - waiting around court all day, missing out on wage etc

Maybe your friend would not mind a day in court

Wishbone Ash

Eamonnator wrote: »

Speaking as a retired Traffic Corps Sergeant, I don't understand his rationale either.
And if I were stopped on my bike, for committing a traffic offence, the last thing I would do is admit that I had a driving licence.

The issue was that I did not believe that I had committed any offence, despite the Sergeant's over the top 'Starsky & Hutch' style apprehension of me by swerving in and blocking my path as if I had just robbed a bank even though I had decided to cycle home from work on a public road rather than on a segregated cycle track of dubious design and signage.

I disputed his accusations and asked several times to be charged with the said offence but he seemed reluctant to do so preferring to enjoy the sound of his own voice giving a lecture about an offence which, in my opinion had not been committed.

What really annoyed me most was that during the whole episode he didn't once make any eye contact with me but continually looked from left to right or above my head. I'm not a difficult person to deal with!

fritzelly wrote: »

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights...

All road users should be issued with fines for that.

plodder wrote: »

Sure. The whole point of the thread is that the OP was thinking of paying the 80 euro fine..

No, no - his friend was.

AndrewJRenko

fritzelly wrote: »

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights, maybe not hurt anyone but what about the car that had to break nearly causing an accident or the pedestrian who nearly got whalloped and so on.

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision?

magicbastarder

eh... yes? we've seen videos on this forum of cyclists running red lights and colliding with cars; e.g. the deliveroo chap on dame street recently.

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

eh... yes? we've seen videos on this forum of cyclists running red lights and colliding with cars; e.g. the deliveroo chap on dame street recently.

Sorry, I should have been clearer:

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

Wishbone Ash

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

...Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

Perhaps not with others in a motor vehicle but I'd imagine there must be a few cyclist v. pedestrian injuries. I can't verify though.

I witnessed one myself last year at the junction of Parliament Street and Cork Hill. I was waiting at the lights when another cyclist sped through and collided with a female pedestrian (looked like a tourist) causing her head injuries. The cyclist stayed at the scene for a while while we called an ambulance but what annoyed me was that she kept apologising to the cyclist even though she had a green pedestrian light.

km991148

stimpson wrote: »

Surely you mean your friend really hopes this is not the case?

Sorry - to clarify -
I am hoping it's not the case for my friend

---

This is typical nonsense tho - and genuinely not sure what should be done.. annoying as hell - gotta start with the appeal first tho I guess.
I really dont see how a FCN could stand up in court when it is clearly worded for a car - but it would foolish to take it to court and meet with a judge who would be equally pissed off about wasting taxpayer money.

magicbastarder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, I should have been clearer:

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

i assume you mean - based on the original quoted post - has there ever been a verified case in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary accident they were not themselves caught up in, due to motorists having to take evasive action?

stimpson

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, I should have been clearer:

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

There was a lad who got 18 months for killing a pedestrian last year in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assume you mean - based on the original quoted post - has there ever been a verified case in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary accident they were not themselves caught up in, due to motorists having to take evasive action?

Nearly ;

has there ever been a verified case in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary collision due to motorists having to take evasive action?

I'm not really bothered whether the cyclist was caught up in the collision or not - just as to whether the old trope about "motorists having to take evasive action and crash" actually stands up.

AndrewJRenko

stimpson wrote: »

There was a lad who got 18 months for killing a pedestrian last year in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told

Nothing to do with breaking a red light, nothing to do with motorist taking evasive action and nothing to do with Ireland

stimpson

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Nothing to do with breaking a red light, nothing to do with motorist taking evasive action and nothing to do with Ireland

I need to check but I think the laws of physics apply in both jurisdictions and I’m almost positive that red lights do not offer any protection from injury.