Show insurance within 10 days..

salad17

I was stopped at a checkpoint and didn't yet have insurance papers.

Asked to show them to my local garda station within 10 days.

Plain forgot.

Now.. got a letter saying I need to pay a fine. BUT! It doesn't ask me to show me insurance anymore?! So bizzare! So I could easily have not had any car insurance and now have gotten away with just a €40 euro fine?!

Now as it happens, I DO have insurance and I don't want to pay the fine! I'm thinking if I don't pay I'll have to make a court appearance but when I'm able to prove I had insurance it should be thrown out?

mickdw

I'd imagine you will get a further summons yet.

Brian?

Tip down to your local Garda station and produce your insurance, tax and drivers licence. They may be able to nip it in the bud. Best case scenario is that you pay the €40 and move on. You should have done it within the 10 days given, not to be harsh.

I find it strange that this kind of thing goes on still. Surely they should be able to check a national data base.

Yawns

salad17 wrote: »

I was stopped at a checkpoint and didn't yet have insurance papers.

Asked to show them to my local garda station within 10 days.

Plain forgot.

Now.. got a letter saying I need to pay a fine. BUT! It doesn't ask me to show me insurance anymore?! So bizzare! So I could easily have not had any car insurance and now have gotten away with just a €40 euro fine?!

Now as it happens, I DO have insurance and I don't want to pay the fine! I'm thinking if I don't pay I'll have to make a court appearance but when I'm able to prove I had insurance it should be thrown out?

There's not just a fine to pay I'm afraid. There'll be a summons to court for no insurance coming your way too. As has been said already, get your ass down to the garda station with all your documents and see if they can put a halt to it.

Don't try to even get out of the fine, that's the least of your worries right now.

Victor

As indicated above, there are two offence:
* Not having insurance.
* not displaying the insurance disk.

salad17

I understand that if I ignore it I will get a court summons.

I was in court for a day before for a traffic offense and watched about 40 other cases before mine. Lots were for no insurance, with very serious penalties however those that could show that they were in fact insured at the time were ALL thrown out. No fines or charges etc.

Which is why I'm thinking it could work in my favour. Unless it was just that judge on that day.

GM228

salad17 wrote: »

I understand that if I ignore it I will get a court summons.

I was in court for a day before for a traffic offense and watched about 40 other cases before mine. Lots were for no insurance, with very serious penalties however those that could show that they were in fact insured at the time were ALL thrown out. No fines or charges etc.

Which is why I'm thinking it could work in my favour. Unless it was just that judge on that day.

It's a risk you take, but just because you saw one particular judge throw them out does not guarantee that another will do it also, each judge operates differently. There are no guarantees of an outcome either way.

salad17

GM228 wrote: »

It's a risk you take, but just because you saw one particular judge throw them out does not guarantee that another will do it also, each judge operates differently. There are no guarantees of an outcome either way.

Yeah I understand that, that's why I put the question here to get a better idea of what's the norm and make a calculated risk hah

nuac

Mod
Salad17, this a forum for legal discussion, not an advisory service
Do not take risks, however well calculated, with RTA insurance
Suggest you consult a solicitor practising in the court area to which you are summoned/B]

salad17

nuac wrote: »

Mod
Salad17, this a forum for legal discussion, not an advisory service
Do not take risks, however well calculated, with RTA insurance
Suggest you consult a solicitor practising in the court area to which you are summoned/B]

This is clearly a discussion, about what the normal proceedings and expected outcomes are for similar cases in court.

I am discussing with those who might be better informed or more experienced than I.

Is that not the point of a discussion forum?

Trying to decide the best route to take, within the law..

Really Interested

salad17 wrote: »

This is clearly a discussion, about what the normal proceedings and expected outcomes are for similar cases in court.

I am discussing with those who might be better informed or more experienced than I.

Is that not the point of a discussion forum?

Trying to decide the best route to take, within the law..

No that in a specific case is legal advice. BTW no insurance is a mandatory court appearance so there is no best route to take I assume what you have received is a summons if you have received a FPN it is not for no insurance.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed Drivers/Penalty Points Offences 17 April 2016.pdf

mickdw

I believe you are heading for court regardless but I'm sure if you arrive in court with documents proving that you were insured at the time, the judge will have to be reasonable however that does not mean that the fine would be thrown out too. So while I can't see how you would get points for driving without insurance for example, it is still likely that you will have to pay the fine for not displaying insurance disc which could very well be increased above the 40 quid currently owed.

joeysoap

It’s a poor system. PSNI can tell if the car is insured in a second. ( ok , not the driver, but it’s unlikely they won’t be covered) and no wallpaper on the windscreen.

Lmklad

So there are two separate things going on. The fine is for failing to produce. If you go to court, you can only tell the judge you didn’t produce.

Secondly there may be a summons for not having insurance which will mean going to court. At that point you can produce your insure and hope it will be struck out.

The two offences are separate and distinct and the judge may not deal with them together as you did fail to produce.

hullaballoo

OP, I say this as a lawyer with a lot of experience - get a lawyer to deal with this.

Calculated risks are very admirable in most situations but when you're dealing with a district court judge, the stakes are far too high.

You need someone with experience in the local court - it is enough to drop down early on the day and see who's who and instruct the best person available that way.

K.Flyer

salad17 wrote: »

I was stopped at a checkpoint and didn't yet have insurance papers.

Asked to show them to my local garda station within 10 days.

Plain forgot.

Now.. got a letter saying I need to pay a fine. BUT! It doesn't ask me to show me insurance anymore?! So bizzare! So I could easily have not had any car insurance and now have gotten away with just a €40 euro fine?!

Now as it happens, I DO have insurance and I don't want to pay the fine! I'm thinking if I don't pay I'll have to make a court appearance but when I'm able to prove I had insurance it should be thrown out?

Did you have insurance cover on the day that you were stopped at the checkpoint.
Its just I'm reading your post as you did not, but now you have

whizbang

Pay the fine.
If you do eventually get to court; Find the Garda involved before court starts and show him the proof.
When the case comes up, he will most likely tell the judge the matter has been dealt with, and just hope for dismissal.

4ensic15

The best thing to do is show the insurance to the garda before the court hearing. Go to the garda station and find the guard. Judges get very annoyed at the list being held up whilst a guard checks insurance documents. Even if the guard says that it will be struck out, make sure to turn up in court and the day and be sure.
Usually when a person is insured, the failing to display and failing to produce are thrown out, but there is no guarantee.

CaoimheSquee

salad17 wrote: »

I understand that if I ignore it I will get a court summons.

I was in court for a day before for a traffic offense and watched about 40 other cases before mine. Lots were for no insurance, with very serious penalties however those that could show that they were in fact insured at the time were ALL thrown out. No fines or charges etc.

Which is why I'm thinking it could work in my favour. Unless it was just that judge on that day.

Very same here. Had to take a day off work and sat in court from 10.30am for 2 hours listening to some quite serious offences and no shows. It got to me and I had the insurance cert on me and it was just struck out.
I tell you I will never forget to present again!!

1hnr79jr65

Is it acceptable to have a scanned copy of insurance papers on your phone to produce if asked to avoid such situations in future?

Lmklad

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Is it acceptable to have a scanned copy of insurance papers on your phone to produce if asked to avoid such situations in future?

Up to the guard. The legal requirement is for the production of the insurance certificate, not a copy.

Victor

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Is it acceptable to have a scanned copy of insurance papers on your phone to produce if asked to avoid such situations in future?

Such things can be (more) easily edited, so not worth much.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

K.Flyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Also I had a situation where I had the cert in the car and the Garda refused to read it at the roadside. I was told to produce within 10 days instead.

Is that so the details will be entered onto their system for "future reference".

4ensic15

K.Flyer wrote: »

Is that so the details will be entered onto their system for "future reference".

It is not practical for a guard to examine a document like an insurance cert on the side of the road. It would be much harder to detect a forgery or tampering with a genuine document.

iomusicdublin

There have been a few instances where the person has gone to the Garda station and produced their documents.

Then it turns out that the Garda who inspected the documentation did not log the visit or made some clerical error.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

LOL, the last cert AXA send me was a pdf that I printed off at home.

A solicitor was telling me if you produce at the roadside in response to a demand, any secondary request to produce within 10 days is not a lawful demand and you would be on good stable ground if you ignored this request.

Mod
With respect I would advise playing safe and producing the insurance cert at the station. An insurance conviction can be expensive. Possible fine, and possible loading on renewals

As per the Mod advice I would air on the side of caution, however the solicitor is correct, the requirement to produce within 10 days only becomes a lawful demand if you fail to produce documents then and there at the time.

If you do produce then and there then such a demand is not actually lawful, there is no subject to verification clause.

GM228

iomusicdublin wrote: »

There have been a few instances where the person has gone to the Garda station and produced their documents.

Then it turns out that the Garda who inspected the documentation did not log the visit or made some clerical error.

Ask the member to stamp and sign the back of the certificate, they are not required to but most will do this if asked.

On a related topic, when asked to produce a licence the Gardaí are required to give a receipt stating such, but more often than not they don't.

Rubberchikken

Cant imagine how someone would forget to bring papers to ags if asked. Just my opinion

K.Flyer

Many years ago I would have been stopped on a regular basis on my motorbike.
Having only produced my papers to the local station I got stopped again a few days later.
Being a little peeved with him, having been stopped for no good reason, I told him to check with the station as I had only produced a few days ago.
He said in that case not to produce again as he would check from my last time. Yeah Right!
Luckily something in my head told me to produce again and to make a point of stating the road I had been stopped on.
A few months later the summons arrived for no insurance and failing to produce.
I went to the station got a letter from them to confirm I had produced, got a letter from the insurance company stating I was covered.
Thrown out and an apology from the judge for wasting my time.

4ensic15

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If you produced a pdf printout at a station they would telephone the underwriter to make sure it was genuine. That is why they won't look at them at the side of the road. the chances of a judge believing that you had an insurance cert with you and produced it at the side of the road are slim. I would not rely on it for a failure to produce.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

4ensic15

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was drafted long before 1960. It is a re-enactment of the 1933 Act.

K.Flyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

The law only states a certificate of insurance, it does not state what form or format it needs to be.

The law was drafted in 1960, the drafters never envisaged the internet and home printing.

Maybe they should think about issuing credit card type insurance certs with some form of chip or QR code which can be read with a hand held device.

4ensic15

K.Flyer wrote: »

Maybe they should think about issuing credit card type insurance certs with some form of chip or QR code which can be read with a hand held device.

Maybe they should do what they do on the continent where the insurance is on the vehicle and not the driver. Number plate recognition would identify the uninsured, and enable them to be taken off the road immediately.

dense

In this sort of situation, would a letter in the vehicle from the broker stating that insurance is in place (but they are awaiting documentation) be any use?

My broker always sends the cert out late, I get the cert a day after the insurance renewal date has passed even though its paid for weeks in advance.

Boxcar_Willie

Can a Garda insist on the insurance certificate being produced at a Gards station even if it's produced at a roadside checkpoint ?
This happened to me once - I was stopped at a checkpoint , asked for licence which I produced. He then asked me to produce my insurance certificate at a station within 10 days. I told him that I had it with me and handed it to him but he insisted on me producing it at a station.
I drove on to the Garda station which was only 5 mins away and produced it again to the desk Garda who informed me that " it's not on the system yet " and that I would have to come back later after the Garda who stopped me has it entered.
Surely the details should have been noted when I produced at the station.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

4ensic15

dense wrote: »

In this sort of situation, would a letter in the vehicle from the broker stating that insurance is in place (but they are awaiting documentation) be any use?

My broker always sends the cert out late, I get the cert a day after the insurance renewal date has passed even though its paid for weeks in advance.

You have 10 days. If you are stopped before the renewal you show the cert for the insurance which was in effect on the day you were stopped. If stopped after renewal you have a cert within 10 days. the broker sending the cert out a day after the insurance comes into effect should not cause you a problem.

linpoo

Fred Swanson wrote: »

The law only states a certificate of insurance, it does not state what form or format it needs to be.

The law was drafted in 1960, the drafters never envisaged the internet and home printing.

Is the certificate of Insurance the disk or is it different?

4ensic15

linpoo wrote: »

Is the certificate of Insurance the disk or is it different?

It is different.

K.Flyer

linpoo wrote: »

Is the certificate of Insurance the disk or is it different?

The disc is cut from the certificate.

joeysoap

A Garda friend of mine has told me (a long time ago )that if you want to p*ss off the Garda who asked to produce the insurance, then produce it on the 10th day. Apparently the Garda has to check everyday to see did you come to the Garda station to produce ii. I asked him could you and not the guard nominate a station and he said yes, a station of your choosing. He would still check everyday with that station. I was stopped 20 odd years ago and asked to produce within 10 days and I did so at a small local station near me ( but 60 miles from where the checkpoint was). I never heard anything about it after.

K.Flyer

4ensic15 wrote: »

Maybe they should do what they do on the continent where the insurance is on the vehicle and not the driver. Number plate recognition would identify the uninsured, and enable them to be taken off the road immediately.

In some other countries you must carry All of your documents with you, licence, insurance, road worthiness cert, tax etc.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

joeysoap

K.Flyer wrote: »

K.Flyer wrote: »

In some other countries you must carry All of your documents with you, licence, insurance, road worthiness cert, tax etc.

In fairness most of this is on the windscreen, but point taken, in most Eu countries you have to have photographic ID when stopped, incl drivers license.

Carawaystick

K.Flyer wrote: »

The disc is cut from the certificate.

Disc :rolleyes: because rectangles are discs....

4ensic15 wrote:

Maybe they should do what they do on the continent where the insurance is on the vehicle and not the driver.

How are Irish drivers and cars dealt with then?

4ensic15

Carawaystick wrote: »

Disc :rolleyes: because rectangles are discs....


How are Irish drivers and cars dealt with then?

In Ireland, the insurance is personal to the driver. One person may be insured to drive a car, but a different person driving the same car half an hour later is not insured. That is why number plate recognition and databases won't identify uninsured driving.

Carawaystick

Sorry, I misunderstood you. that's clear now.

salad17

Thanks for responses.

Don't know why there should be a mad rush to pay the fine before I get dragged to court, there's a clear amount of days I have, and then it goes up by 30euro for another 28days before court is mentioned.

I think I'll save myself the stress and just pay it yeah.

To be clear, I was fully insured at the time of checkpoint but the papers had not arrived yet which is why I didn't have them on the vehicle.

But is nobody else shocked that having been stopped for no insurance, I'm not being asked at any point to show that I am/was insured?? I just have to pay the fine and be on my way, so I could hypothetically not have had any insurance, this must be a big mistake on the Gardas part surely?