Dilemma with the bill

Ginger83

Hi all

Got a job done and paid the builder. Just found out i'm entitled to claim over 4k vat back on job.Approached the builder for a vat receipt and he tried to tell me it was a cash job.

This was never discussed and original quote I have clearly shows vat.

What should I do?

Hitman3000

Ginger83 wrote:

This was never discussed and original quote I have clearly shows vat.

Have you got an itemized receipt?

Ginger83

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Have you got an itemized receipt?

He never actually gave me a receipt.

Hitman3000

Am I right in assuming you spent nearly 40k and you didn't insist on a vat receipt? Did you pay cash or cheque?

Sleeper12

Ginger83 wrote:

What should I do?

This should have been discussed with the builder at the time of getting the quote.

In order to claim the vat back the builder should have registered the job on revenue website using your property tax number before the job started.

Obviously tax evasion & cash jobs are wrong but if he didn't charge you vat then you can't claim it back. If you want a vat receipt he can still charge you the vat.

There is nothing stopping you from reporting him to the revenue.

Ginger83

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Am I right in assuming you spent nearly 40k and you didn't insist on a vat receipt? Did you pay cash or cheque?

I expected a receipt for the payment. It was part grant payment / balance cash.

Ginger83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This should have been discussed with the builder at the time of getting the quote.

In order to claim the vat back the builder should have registered the job on revenue website using your property tax number before the job started.

Obviously tax evasion & cash jobs are wrong but if he didn't charge you vat then you can't claim it back. If you want a vat receipt he can still charge you the vat.

There is nothing stopping you from reporting him to the revenue.

I picked what i believed to be a reputable builder and asked him to price the job. I never mentioned cash, sure it was a co co grant involved. My quote shows vat.

Sleeper12

Ginger83 wrote:

I picked what i believed to be a reputable builder and asked him to price the job. I never mentioned cash, sure it was a co co grant involved. My quote shows vat.

Get in touch with revenue send them a copy of the quote showing vat. If he charged you vat & does not but the job through the books then it's theft. That is much worse than a cash job. In your case he's collected the vat but isn't paying it to revenue.

I'm assuming if you got a co co grant that he has a tax clearance cert.

Do you have proof of payment?

Ginger83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Get in touch with revenue send them a copy of the quote showing vat. If he charged you vat & does not but the job through the books then it's theft. That is much worse than a cash job. In your case he's collected the vat but isn't paying it to revenue.

I'm assuming if you got a co co grant that he has a tax clearance cert.

Do you have proof of payment?

Yes he has tax clearance, we had to picked a proper contractor to be approved the grant.

I can prove the grant amount.

Hitman3000

Sleeper12 wrote:

Get in touch with revenue send them a copy of the quote showing vat. If he charged you vat & does not but the job through the books then it's theft. That is much worse than a cash job. In your case he's collected the vat but isn't paying it to revenue.

Second this but tell the builder first give him a chance to sort out a vat receipt.

Ginger83

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Second this but tell the builder first give him a chance to sort out a vat receipt.

He's claiming it was a cash job.

Hitman3000

Ginger83 wrote:

He's claiming it was a cash job.

Revenue doesn't recognise cash jobs. Have you a paper trail to prove you paid him? Cheque stubb?

duffman13

Ginger83 wrote: »

He's claiming it was a cash job.

Well here is what you say to your builder:

"I never agreed it was a cash job, your quote includes VAT so why would I expect otherwise. It's up to you, you can give me a VAT receipt or I can just let revenue take it up with you."

If he disagrees then report him to revenue and let them sort it out, foolish of him to give a VAT quote for a cash job

kirving

Contact him again, and tell him you want to reclaim your €4k.

Put it this way, either he's getting it or you're getting it. Right now he hasn't given you a discount, and he hasn't paid Revenue.

Revenue will absolutely nail him for this, big penalties and do a full audit of all his business if you contact them. It's almost certainly going to cost him a lot more than €4k. Tell him this and say you either want the €4k discount back, or you're going to have to report him.

Ginger83

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Revenue doesn't recognise cash jobs. Have you a paper trail to prove you paid him? Cheque stubb?

The original quote on company paper show X + vat.

I can prove the grant was paid.

Hitman3000

Ginger83 wrote:

The original quote on company paper show X + vat.

Ginger83 wrote:

I can prove the grant was paid.

Well tell the builder this and show him what you have. Either he gives you the 4k or he can enjoy a day with Revenue. There's your option.

Avatar MIA

Ginger83 wrote: »

He's claiming it was a cash job.

No such thing.

And unless he wants Revenue to audit his business back to when he started being self employed (and not just 4 years) he'll snap to.

I totally disagree with the should have got this cleared in advance. That's BS, you have the right to assume the people you contract with are above board.

Sleeper12

Ginger83 wrote:

He's claiming it was a cash job.

You said that you have a quote showing vat. That's not a cash job. I don't condone cash jobs but the way they work is by mutual benefit and agreement

Sleeper12

By the way even if he gives you a vat receipt you still can't claim the vat back. He needs to fill in all the details on revenue website

Ginger83

Avatar MIA wrote: »

No such thing.

And unless he wants Revenue to audit his business back to when he started being self employed (and not just 4 years) he'll snap to.

I totally disagree with the should have got this cleared in advance. That's BS, you have the right to assume the people you contract with are above board.

I assumed all was above board with a co co grant.

Ginger83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

By the way even if he gives you a vat receipt you still can't claim the vat back. He needs to fill in all the details on revenue website

He sounds like a real crook

mickdw

Cheeky fecker.
Plenty of cash jobs going around but to quote a price including vat, get paid in full then say there was no vat involved is taking the piss.
If revenue were to get involved, they would really take him apart. If he is vat registered, he can not legally do the job without charging vat.
If it happened that he was not vat registered - (it's possible not to be and still be legit with tiny turnover), adding vat to the bill would be an even bigger offence in that case.
So whatever way he wants to cut it, he is up sh1t Creek as long as you paid him in a traceable way. If you gave him a ball of notes, well forget about it.

Sleeper12

Avatar MIA wrote:

I totally disagree with the should have got this cleared in advance. That's BS, you have the right to assume the people you contract with are above board.

I am a tradesman. The rules of the scheme are that you get it cleared in advance. This is revenues rules not mine.

Think about it. Not all tradesmen are registered for vat or have a tax clearance certificate. This is why you need to have all of this discussed at the time of quotation. This is why it needs to be registered on revenue website before any work starts.

Ginger83

mickdw wrote: »

Cheeky fecker.
Plenty of cash jobs going around but to quote a price including vat, get paid in full then say there was no vat involved is taking the piss.
If revenue were to get involved, they would really take him apart. If he is vat registered, he can not legally do the job without charging vat.
If it happened that he was not vat registered - (it's possible not to be and still be legit with tiny turnover), adding vat to the bill would be an even bigger offence in that case.
So whatever way he wants to cut it, he is up sh1t Creek as long as you paid him in a traceable way. If you gave him a ball of notes, well forget about it.

He's a big enough builder, i can prove 80-85% of payment.

Ginger83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I am a tradesman. The rules of the scheme are that you get it cleared in advance. This is revenues rules not mine.

Think about it. Not all tradesmen are registered for vat or have a tax clearance certificate. This is why you need to have all of this discussed at the time of quotation. This is why it needs to be registered on revenue website before any work starts.

He does have a tax clearance cert.

Sleeper12

From the citizens advice bureau:

Details of the work

For you to be able to claim the HRI credit, your contractor(s) must enter details of the work on the HRI online administration system. This system is only accessible to contractors who are registered for VAT and are tax-compliant.

Revenue advises applicants to log in to HRI online (see ‘Where to apply’ below) to check that their contractors have correctly entered details of the works and payments.

Checklist

You should also:

Ensure that you have paid or arranged to pay any Local Property Tax (LPT) that is dueCheck that your contractor has a VAT number and is tax-compliantEnsure that the work qualifies – see 'Qualifying work' aboveIf you are a local authority tenant, get written authorisation from the local authority before getting any work doneKeep all supporting documentation – tax clearance certificates, estimates, receipts etc.Give the contractor the LPT Property ID of your property but not your LPT PIN or your Personal Public Service Number

Hitman3000

Ginger83 wrote:

He does have a tax clearance cert.

I get the feeling this Grant was to adapt a home for a disabled person, is that correct?

lawred2

Ginger83 wrote: »

I expected a receipt for the payment. It was part grant payment / balance cash.

grant payment from the state?

for what?

to you or the builder? and from what state department?

because usually any grants issued by the state can only go to fully compliant builders

beertons

Into the pocket, no docket. Johnny Cash is King.

If you have a bill with Vat on it though, that's different altogether.

Ginger83

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I get the feeling this Grant was to adapt a home for a disabled person, is that correct?

Yes 100% correct

Ginger83

lawred2 wrote: »

grant payment from the state?

for what?

to you or the builder? and from what state department?

because usually any grants issued by the state can only go to fully compliant builders

Housing adaptation for person with a disability.

Hitman3000

Ginger83 wrote:

Housing adaptation for person with a disability.

Threat of Revenue is your only real option as far as I can see.

lawred2

Ginger83 wrote: »

Housing adaptation for person with a disability.

paid to you or to the builder?

Ginger83

lawred2 wrote: »

paid to you or to the builder?

Paid to builder on our behalf.

lawred2

Ginger83 wrote: »

Paid to builder on our behalf.

that's mental - wonder was due diligence done on him?

ask for the VAT back or else threaten him with the revenue..

Ginger83

lawred2 wrote: »

that's mental - wonder was due diligence done on him?

ask for the VAT back or else threaten him with the revenue..

All looked above board, co co even told us he does alot of grant work.

lawred2

Ginger83 wrote: »

All looked above board, co co even told us he does alot of grant work.

do they know he considers them cash jobs?

utterly bizarre

ironwalk

That's well dodgy and I'm surprised that any builder who does that type of work (where the Co Council are paying the grant out to him directly), I'm surprised that he would take the risk of cutting off that type of work.

Have a chat with him and ask for his mature consideration as to whether or not this is really a cash job.

Sleeper12

lawred2 wrote:

ask for the VAT back or else threaten him with the revenue..

He can't give the vat back. That's illegal because its not his money. It belongs to the revenue /taxpayer. He needs to pay the vat & OP can offset it against their tax.

Homeowners don't actually claim vat back as they are not vat registered. It's offset against their income tax. If you don't pay income tax then you don't get the vat back.

OP you do know that you can't claim the vat for the part that the Co Co paid. Only the part that you paid yourself.

scwazrh

Ginger83 wrote: »

Paid to builder on our behalf.

If it was paid to the builder directly from county council , he would of invoiced them not you so you wouldn't be able to claim the vat back .

Avatar MIA

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I am a tradesman. The rules of the scheme are that you get it cleared in advance. This is revenues rules not mine.

Think about it. Not all tradesmen are registered for vat or have a tax clearance certificate. This is why you need to have all of this discussed at the time of quotation. This is why it needs to be registered on revenue website before any work starts.

What doesn't need to be agreed up front is that it is or isn't a black economy job. It is assumed to be legit.

What's stopping the trader putting it up on the system now? The whole point of the system is to avoid the black economy and therefore self funding.

Avatar MIA

OP, are you trying to claim back the VAT on home improvements, to be claimed back over 2 years on income tax (last time I looked). This was introduced a few years back.

Sleeper12

Avatar MIA wrote:

What's stopping the trader putting it up on the system now? The whole point of the system is to avoid the black economy and therefore self funding.

The revenue rules are that he puts quote on the revenue website before work starts. I don't make the rules. I can just tell you what I have to do as a tradesman.

jlm29

OP, is the property tax of the property tax in your name?
And as above, you can’t claim the VAT back outright, but you do get it as a tax credit, if the builder inputs the details on the revenue system before the job is carried out.

Ginger83

Avatar MIA wrote: »

OP, are you trying to claim back the VAT on home improvements, to be claimed back over 2 years on income tax (last time I looked). This was introduced a few years back.

Vat61a form

Ginger83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

He can't give the vat back. That's illegal because its not his money. It belongs to the revenue /taxpayer. He needs to pay the vat & OP can offset it against their tax.

Homeowners don't actually claim vat back as they are not vat registered. It's offset against their income tax. If you don't pay income tax then you don't get the vat back.

OP you do know that you can't claim the vat for the part that the Co Co paid. Only the part that you paid yourself.

Why is that?

We got a quote of X + vat, paid it in full. What does it matter where funds came from.

Avatar MIA

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The revenue rules are that he puts quote on the revenue website before work starts. I don't make the rules. I can just tell you what I have to do as a tradesman.

Where does it say that? From my reading I don't see this precondition.

Sleeper12

Avatar MIA wrote:

Where does it say that? From my reading I don't see this precondition.

It's on ROS online. It's in the instructions I have to follow when I fill in a clients details.

Ginger83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It's on ROS online. It's in the instructions I have to follow when I fill in a clients details.

What happens if builder has not done that?

lawred2

Sleeper12 wrote: »

He can't give the vat back. That's illegal because its not his money. It belongs to the revenue /taxpayer. He needs to pay the vat & OP can offset it against their tax.

Homeowners don't actually claim vat back as they are not vat registered. It's offset against their income tax. If you don't pay income tax then you don't get the vat back.

OP you do know that you can't claim the vat for the part that the Co Co paid. Only the part that you paid yourself.

Yeah everyone gets that but if the lad is trying to make off with VAT charged to the client (as per original quote) she is well entitled to ask for it back as he's not planning on handing it over to revenue.

If the job is legit then yes it belongs to the government.

But if you charge a client a VAT inclusive price and then refuse a VAT invoice claiming it to be a cash job, it's usually because you don't plan on handing it over to revenue.

Sleeper12

Ginger83 wrote:

We got a quote of X + vat, paid it in full. What does it matter where funds came from.

You can only get tax credit on what you spend out of your own pocket. The grant part you didn't pay & you can't claim for.