Dept of Sport Funding

spyderski

I'd be interested to know whether all the people on here who vociferously defended the Islandeady sports grant are also happy with the latest funding round?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/private-school-in-sports-ministers-constituency-awarded-150k-grant-after-appeal-36696989.html

I'm not interested in the School, the Hockey club, or Shane Ross. I am merely asking those who were so quick to defend the integrity of the grant funding process in relation to Isleandeady CC if their faith had wavered in the face of further controversy over political influence in the grant process.

1bryan

is there anywhere to see a full list of all the projects that got funding? All the talk seems to be about the wesley college grant, which is ridiculous, but hardly surprising with Shane Ross as minister. He pulled a stroke to get his garda station reopened ahead of other areas that needed a garda station more. And now this, in his back garden.

But it's hard to judge without seeing the full list.

plodder

Not sure what relevance this has to cycling, but I'm all for sports grants for facilities that get used and it sounds like this one will be used by the school during the day and the hockey club in the evenings. So, it seems like a good use of public funds to me. Politicians will claim credit for anything whether they had a role or not. You'd probably have to see all the information relating to the appeal as to whether anything fishy went on, but maybe the appeal was allowed after they produced the license agreement. Unlike the twitter mob, I tend to believe people normally do the right thing, unless I see evidence to the contrary.

Eamonnator

And there was me, thinking, I was browsing the Cycling Forum.

zurbfoundation

cycling?

1bryan

cycling is a sport, believe it or not.

I'd love if the thread could be brought back to cycling funding that did or didn't get approved. But we'd need the full list for that.

zurbfoundation

Id say stick it in the hockey thread or the Government Spending thread.

Chips Lovell

Full list of grants is available here and here

spyderski

I would have thought my first post explained why it's in the Cycling forum.

Posts like "If you apply for a grant and don't get it they you either didn't apply correctly or you were not entitled. It will not be because somehow the whole system of grant allocation is skewed in favour of clubs with politicians" were being thrown around this forum, ridiculing my concern regarding the awarding of the Islandeady grant.

I am just wondering if the facts of this particular case have changed people's previously held opinions, where further suspicions are being raised regarding sports grants?

PeterParker957

I think the snobbery from the Solidarity TDs and others is wrong.

Why shouldn't cycling (e.g. as this is that forum) receive funding ? Why must it be assumed kids from working class backgrounds all want to play GAA or box ???

If we get the next Stephen Roche with a few bob in a grant then great.

spyderski

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I think the snobbery from the Solidarity TDs and others is wrong.

Why shouldn't cycling (e.g. as this is that forum) receive funding ? Why must it be assumed kids from working class backgrounds all want to play GAA or box ???

If we get the next Stephen Roche with a few bob in a grant then great.

Not sure what you're referring to. The current controversy is about funding a Hockey pitch?

PeterParker957

spyderski wrote: »

Not sure what you're referring to. The current controversy is about funding a Hockey pitch?

Nothing wrong with that either.

ted1

spyderski wrote: »

I'd be interested to know whether all the people on here who vociferously defended the Islandeady sports grant are also happy with the latest funding round?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/private-school-in-sports-ministers-constituency-awarded-150k-grant-after-appeal-36696989.html

I’m happy, 1800 grants giving out yet media focusses on one of them.

1bryan

ted1 wrote: »

I’m happy, 1800 grants giving out yet media focusses on one of them.

that was my point. It would be easy to pick any one from the list and find problems with it. Hence needing the full list to view it in it's correct context.

I also wonder if cycling as a sport loses out, due to funding for cycling infrastructure (for commuters) allocated elsewhere.

ted1

1bryan wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

I’m happy, 1800 grants giving out yet media focusses on one of them.

that was my point. It would be easy to pick any one from the list and find problems with it. Hence needing the full list to view it in it's correct context.

I also wonder if cycling as a sport loses out, due to funding for cycling infrastructure (for commuters) allocated elsewhere.

Well it’s for capital expenditure, so unless your buying turbo trainers or building a velodrome then there’s not much Capex that a cycling club could get

It’s like people on the radio giving out that their school doesn’t have sports pitches and didn’t get a grant. Well unless they applied for a grant to buy a pitch then a cap ex grant isn’t relevant.

1bryan

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Full list of grants is available here and here

just had a quick scan through that, paying particular attention to Dublin. While there were cycling and triathlon related grants in Cavan and Clare, I can't see a single one in Dublin. Did any/many apply?

And I'd be from a GAA background originally and fully appreciate the role of the GAA club in a community. But, the disparity between grants given to GAA clubs, and everyone else, is quite stark. There'd be some GAA clubs there (one in particular jumped out) getting a good wad, that would raise my eyebrows as much as any fee-paying school.

1bryan

ted1 wrote: »

Well it’s for capital expenditure, so unless your buying turbo trainers or building a velodrome then there’s not much Capex that a cycling club could get

It’s like people on the radio giving out that their school doesn’t have sports pitches and didn’t get a grant. Well unless they applied for a grant to buy a pitch then a cap ex grant isn’t relevant.

that would explain why there's so few then. Though I did see one for, I think, Youghal Cycling Club, who had 'Develop Youth Section', as the reason listed. So, unless it's to develop a Corkagh Park type facility, I wonder what the plan there is.

Anyway, in general there seems a good spread. You'll never keep everyone happy.

lissard

I find the general discourse on this a bit disheartening - it very quickly descends into bitching and begrudgery. This is public money and it's available to *all* sports. It's up to the individual clubs to make their case and if they miss out this year there is always next year. People routinely give out about he GAA hoovering up most of the funding but this overlooks the fact that they have the highest numbers and are also the most organised when it comes to making applications. My hockey club applied to get our pitch upgraded a couple of years ago - it was in rag order. Constantly flooding and players were picking up injuries from falls on the worn surface. I honestly thought we might end up disappearing as a club if we didn't get it upgraded. We went through the application for the sports capital program twice. The first time we failed as we didn't have all the appropriate costings in place and a proper cost benefit analysis could not be made. The state rightly expects to see that you are on top of your game when handing over taxpayers money. On our second application we had all of this down and could show the exact number of people that would benefit (secondary school, 1 hockey club, 1 soccer club and 1 GAA club). Since the pitch has been relayed it is in use nearly 100% of the time and several hundred people use it each week. It took a serious amount of work to make it happen both in the application and in associated fundraising - you never get 100% of the cost covered.

Felexicon

lissard wrote: »

I find the general discourse on this a bit disheartening - it very quickly descends into bitching and begrudgery. This is public money and it's available to *all* sports. It's up to the individual clubs to make their case and if they miss out this year there is always next year. People routinely give out about he GAA hoovering up most of the funding but this overlooks the fact that they have the highest numbers and are also the most organised when it comes to making applications. My hockey club applied to get our pitch upgraded a couple of years ago - it was in rag order. Constantly flooding and players were picking up injuries from falls on the worn surface. I honestly thought we might end up disappearing as a club if we didn't get it upgraded. We went through the application for the sports capital program twice. The first time we failed as we didn't have all the appropriate costings in place and a proper cost benefit analysis could not be made. The state rightly expects to see that you are on top of your game when handing over taxpayers money. On our second application we had all of this down and could show the exact number of people that would benefit (secondary school, 1 hockey club, 1 soccer club and 1 GAA club). Since the pitch has been relayed it is in use nearly 100% of the time and several hundred people use it each week. It took a serious amount of work to make it happen both in the application and in associated fundraising - you never get 100% of the cost covered.

The grant scheme is not run every year.

While I have no issue with the grants that were given out, when you hear some of the reasons clubs were refused grants it's easier to understand why people are annoyed about it.

One I heard this morning was Nertune BC in Cork being ruled out due to not being from a disadvantaged area. They put in for money to fix the roof of their complex which they open free of charge to local schools for P.E use.

magicbastarder

mod note - no arguing in thread about whether the thread should be left open or not.
@OP, if you want the thread closed please report it or PM a mod. but it simply not going the way you wanted it is probably not going to be considered sufficient to warrant closing it.

several posts have been deleted.

ford2600

spyderski wrote: »

I'd be interested to know whether all the people on here who vociferously defended the Islandeady sports grant are also happy with the latest funding round?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/private-school-in-sports-ministers-constituency-awarded-150k-grant-after-appeal-36696989.html

What is your point?

You link to an independent article on one award in Shane Ross's constituency?
Have you analysed all the available data and put together something coherent which demonstrates bias/interference in constituencies where ministers sit?

Without that your OP looks like an attempt atsocial media verification of your biased outrage? Which seemed to have been triggered by a single Irish Independent article?

If you think rich/elite sports shouldn't get grants then state that and what you are doing to change it. If Wesley college are anyone else complied with criteria foe getting grant what is your problem?

For the record I think Shane Ross is the ultimate in a hurler on the ditch who has turned out to be wholly incompetent in a ministerial position; that doesn't mean he interfered in the process here on the basis of what you have posted.

Eamonnator

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2018/03/20/wesley-college-to-spend-taxpayer-money-far-better-than-pleb-schools-would/

Interesting take on this subject. No mention about cycling though.

Borderfox

All I can see is the monopoly that is the GAA

magicbastarder

ford2600 wrote: »

If you think rich/elite sports shouldn't get grants then state that and what you are doing to change it. If Wesley college are anyone else complied with criteria foe getting grant what is your problem?

i'll have to ask my friend for clarification, and it was a difference grant scheme - 'national lottery money - but when the rugby club he was involved in got money, they had to include an all weather soccer pitch in the development - and that should be key; that if money is granted, it should be granted only to an organisation or club where any member of the public can join or avail of the facilities.

i don't know if such a condition was in place for wesley, but if not, that's a very idiotic lapse in policy.

Hurrache

It was covered by Off the Ball today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fatXBYFdaoo

spyderski

ford2600 wrote: »

What is your point?

You link to an independent article on one award in Shane Ross's constituency?
Have you analysed all the available data and put together something coherent which demonstrates bias/interference in constituencies where ministers sit?

Without that your OP looks like an attempt atsocial media verification of your biased outrage? Which seemed to have been triggered by a single Irish Independent article?

If you think rich/elite sports shouldn't get grants then state that and what you are doing to change it. If Wesley college are anyone else complied with criteria foe getting grant what is your problem?

For the record I think Shane Ross is the ultimate in a hurler on the ditch who has turned out to be wholly incompetent in a ministerial position; that doesn't mean he interfered in the process here on the basis of what you have posted.

Wow. You have managed to COMPLETELY miss my point. I have no "biased outrage", in fact I'm ashamed to say I voted for Shane Ross in the past. I'm basing nothing on a "single Irish Independent article" (the issue has gotten widespread coverage over the past few days, for those not paying attention). I'm in no way attempting to highlight this particular award, as this would not be the correct forum to do so.

The point of my original post was to see if the people who were so vociferous on the cycling forum in their defence of the extremely suspicious awarding of grant funding to Islandeady Cycling Club would exhibit the same faith in the awarding of the grant to the private schools' hockey pitch.

joey100

Wesley applied alongside a hockey club, any school applying had to do so in conjunction with a local sports club. I'd say that's how they met the criteria of clubs/public using the development.

I'd guess though that it's hard for cycling clubs to get a grant because of the nature of cycling clubs. Very few with clubhouses and the vast majority of clubs meet at set points for their spins rather than their own premises. Most of the people cycling have their own equipment already, that's how they got involved in the club and is needed to join the club. I helped a local club get a grant on one of the last rounds, it wasn't too bad but I know the requirements have been tightened since then. We got a grant towards turbo trainers, the main issue with these from the clubs point of view was where to store them. We relied on club members to store them for us as we had no owned space to do it, and didn't want to go down the road of renting a specific space for it because of the added cost.

spyderski

joey100 wrote: »

I'd guess though that it's hard for cycling clubs to get a grant because of the nature of cycling clubs.

You'd think.Except for the one that got €35k in the past 12 months....

plodder

I don't see the fundamental difference between a rugby club, or a golf club (which got grants in this round) or Wesley college. They all charge money to join, and have restrictive entrance policies of one kind or another. I can see an argument that the more open the policy the better, which is why associating this application with a regular club might have made it easier to approve. I'd sooner see this grant approved than to a golf club, but that's just me. I accept I'm biased against golf ...

joey100

But isn't this is a different issue? When that cycling club got the grant the issue was that was a grant from the department of health for health services and provision, it never went to sports clubs apart from that one and questions were rightly raised about it and how it was awarded.

This grant was for sports clubs and organisations to apply for. A school together with a sports club applied for the grant and got it ,which they are perfectly entitled to do. I'm not sure it's the same thing. If they had of applied by themselves there would be questions to be answered alright but on the face of it they met the criteria.

plodder

spyderski wrote: »

You'd think.Except for the one that got €35k in the past 12 months....

So, what's your beef with them this time? Last time, it was because Enda Kenny was involved and they applied for a dept of health grant rather than a sports one, neither of which applies this time.

spyderski

plodder wrote: »

So, what's your beef with them this time? Last time, it was because Enda Kenny was involved and they applied for a dept of health grant rather than a sports one, neither of which applies this time.

Please re-read the OP.

Chips Lovell

I'm none the wiser either. I think the implication is that anyone who didn't object to Islandeady getting a grant would balk at Wesley getting one. I'm not sure why they would/should though. But I may be reading it wrong.

benneca1

Spyderski clearly has a bee in his bonnet about grants in ministers constituencies. Againt there is no evidence of ministerial interference you are just muck raking. I have no liking for Ross but I don't believe he could have influenced it. Politicians jumping on the band wagon is nothing new If I recall correctly CJ Haughey made it to a TDF podium.

Hurrache

benneca1 wrote: »

Spyderski clearly has a bee in his bonnet about grants in ministers constituencies. Againt there is no evidence of ministerial interference you are just muck raking. I have no liking for Ross but I don't believe he could have influenced it. Politicians jumping on the band wagon is nothing new If I recall correctly CJ Haughey made it to a TDF podium.

The track record of grants and their amounts awarded in ministers constituencies suspiciously rise when the politician becomes the minister, some coincidence. The cute Kerry hoor (which one you may ask) former minister more or less said the reason local clubs got money was because of him and watch that gravy train end when he wasn't re-elected.

I also believe Wesley were initially rejected but on appeal they end up getting the maximum amount.

ted1

To be frank if he didn’t look after his constituents he should retire. He’s elected to look after them. Should ministers stop being TDs when appointed? maybe. But they are not, he is the elected represenitive if the constitution thst elected him. Albeit a very disappointing one. But that is how the system works

Hurrache

ted1 wrote: »

To be frank if he didn’t look after his constituents he should retire. He’s elected to look after them. Should ministers stop being TDs when appointed? maybe. But they are not, he is the elected represenitive if the constitution thst elected him. Albeit a very disappointing one. But that is how the system works

Gombeen politics.

Mattie500

Op has a perspective not widely shared on this one. The link between the allocation of money to a Cycling club in Mayo and a private school in Dublin is tenuous. Applications are scrutinised and succeed or fail on those making the application. GAA have a very wide base of participants (and skillful administrators) so I expect them to be high on the list. My attitude is that any funding for any sport is very welcome.. I think it sends the right message around health and well-being. Too bad a negative narrative is put forward around something I consider to be good for society.

lissard

Well success has many mothers and failure is an orphan. When we got our grant, all the local representatives came out of the woodwork and claimed credit. In fairness a couple of them had helped or at least seemed to be listening when we talked to them them. This is Ireland and you have to use your local representatives to help you get what you want. You can argue whether it is right or wrong. TDs end up pressuring the civil servants who are tasked with making the selection. I do wonder if it has any real effect on the outcome especially if everyone is following the same course of action. My own feeling is that the grant application has to be compelling enough in its own right to succeed.

brocbrocach

spyderski wrote: »

The point of my original post was to see if the people who were so vociferous on the cycling forum in their defence of the extremely suspicious awarding of grant funding to Islandeady Cycling Club would exhibit the same faith in the awarding of the grant to the private schools' hockey pitch.

It seems an obvious point and I agree entirely with you.
Shane Ross is connected to an institution that does extremely well in grant funding - major scandal, outrage abounds in newspapers, radio etc.
Enda Kenny is connected to an institution that does extremely well in grant funding - one solitary boards member seems to give a toss.

plodder

lissard wrote: »

Well success has many mothers and failure is an orphan. When we got our grant, all the local representatives came out of the woodwork and claimed credit. In fairness a couple of them had helped or at least seemed to be listening when we talked to them them. This is Ireland and you have to use your local representatives to help you get what you want. You can argue whether it is right or wrong. TDs end up pressuring the civil servants who are tasked with making the selection. I do wonder if it has any real effect on the outcome especially if everyone is following the same course of action. My own feeling is that the grant application has to be compelling enough in its own right to succeed.

Do they really though? They might say they had to pull out all the stops to make it happen, but maybe all they did was write a letter enquiring about it.

My guess would be that a TD who really pesters a civil servant will be sent off with a flea in their ear. We're long past the day when a TD can threaten a civil servant doing their job.

I find there is far too much perception of corruption and malpractice in this country, than there is really. If someone believes the system is rigged and they don't bother applying for a grant or they make a poor effort at it, then their belief becomes self-fulfilling when they end up with no grant.

1bryan

brocbrocach wrote: »

It seems an obvious point and I agree entirely with you.
Shane Ross is connected to an institution that does extremely well in grant funding - major scandal, outrage abounds in newspapers, radio etc.
Enda Kenny is connected to an institution that does extremely well in grant funding - one solitary boards member seems to give a toss.

I don't think anyone here was overly outraged by the wesley grant. It's perhaps a little eyebrow-raising, but on further reflection, is impossible to judge without doing so in the fullest context possible.

I don't see a difference between the 2 examples, albeit I don't know the detail of either. But, as someone else mentioned previously, I'm sure they both made very compelling cases and, as a result, were awarded their grant.

It's just a shame there isn't enough money to give to all worthy causes.

joey100

I work in a grant funding department, not sports based but the applications have to meet a lot of criteria to get the grant they apply for. It's not that hard but there is a bit of prep work for the organisations involved and we do not look for anything strange or anything they shouldn't really have like account information, policies that are needed to meet their legislative requirements tax clearance cert.

We do occasionally get enquiries from politicians about certain applications, doesn't really make a difference. Our department is regularly audited so we need to make sure that all the applications meet the requirements. Regularly see the politicians then say they helped get the grant for the organisation but in reality they had nothing to do with it. A lot of time though they just know how the system works and what's required and help the organisation prepare their application. All it does it speed up the process a little as we usually don't have to go looking for supporting documents and generally they are just completed to a higher standard, but they still have to meet the same requirements as every other application.

Felexicon

plodder wrote: »

Do they really though? They might say they had to pull out all the stops to make it happen, but maybe all they did was write a letter enquiring about it.

My guess would be that a TD who really pesters a civil servant will be sent off with a flea in their ear. We're long past the day when a TD can threaten a civil servant doing their job.

I find there is far too much perception of corruption and malpractice in this country, than there is really. If someone believes the system is rigged and they don't bother applying for a grant or they make a poor effort at it, then their belief becomes self-fulfilling when they end up with no grant.

I don't think anyone is saying a TD would threaten a Civil Servant over issuing a grant but you can't say that if the Minister for Sport rang the Civil Servant in charge of issuing Sports grants to inquire about an application from a club in his constituency that it would not have any impact. Now you can argue over the intentions of said Minister making that call.

magicbastarder

given the history of irish politics, i think most people understand why many people would be sceptical about whether irish politicians do or do not interfere in processes which should supposedly ignore their entreaties.

Felexicon

I'd like to see the answer to this question for some of the projects that received funding

ted1

Weepsie wrote: »

.

, but I guess people wonder why 250K and 150K should be used to fund the activities of a small number of people..
.

250k is less than the price of a council house in Dublin. Which is giving to a single mother and her child.

I don’t have an issue with some of the countries money being distributed for use by other people in the country who don’t normally see any benefits to their taxes

magicbastarder

They don't 'give' them the house. They allow them to live in it.

ted1

magicbastarder wrote: »

They don't 'give' them the house. They allow them to live in it.

For life and their family can stay in it it they buy it for a token value. Either way the cost to the state for the mother and child is a lot more then 150k for sports grant which will be used by several hundred if not thousands of people.

Carawaystick

Article in de paper about how Neptune Stadium scored 0 for being in a disadvantaged area despite being within 500m of 4 DEIS schools :rolleyes:

benneca1

magicbastarder wrote: »

given the history of irish politics, i think most people understand why many people would be sceptical about whether irish politicians do or do not interfere in processes which should supposedly ignore their entreaties.

Thats exactly how it works the politicians ask a banal question the civil servants give the stock answer (the process is in train and cannot be discussed) the politician then can truthfully say they followed up the matter and if successful they claim a part of the credit and if the application is rejected they talk about the independence of the process. I wouldn't get too het up about it. The serious issue is that most grants and tenders fail because they didn't address all the requirements. Bit like the leaving cert answer the question and answer all parts if you leave anything out you are immediately being marked out of eighty or seventy etc as the case may be.