Gazumped After Months of Waiting.

nectarina

Hi everyone

I would like to take the opportunity to share our experience in attempting to purchase this house, and how after 6 months of wasting time, money and effort we have been left at the threshold of signing the contract and with absolutely nothing and nowhere to go. At this point, aware of the fact that legally we cannot sue anyone as we didn’t sign final contracts, I really only want to avoid this happening again to any potential buyer.

We received a phone call from <SNIP> last week with the shocking news that the vendors had appointed other sale agents in order to get €25k on top of our initial sale agreed amount, unless we were willing to pay it. This was outrageous enough , but to see your house advertised on their website is disgraceful. My mortgage advisor and solicitor just couldn’t believe it.

To sum it up: the parties involved in the sale process didn’t play fair to us, with lack of information, delayed responses starting from the bidding phase (and the last few months with no answer at all from the <SNIP> agent), misleading facts such as the house wasn’t affected by pyrite, (just to find out later on that it wasn't the case) and constant delays from vendors’ solicitors side in sending the documentation after promising every time it was ready to go.

We eventually realised that something was not quite right and started to consider other options, but the truth is we weren’t very optimistic about the alternatives available in the market (neither for renting nor buying is affordable at the moment); besides, as a first time buyers we were a bit lost.

All the parties knew how desperate our situation had become: my pregnancy first, our landlords pushing us to give them a timeframe to leave, then having a newborn and now we have to move out and rent another place with a 4-month baby and no crèche found yet.  We also repeatedly advised that our mortgage and insurances were about to expire, with the bank valuation to be repeated for same reasons. Nobody showed the minimum interest or empathy about our situation and rush; fair enough, but you expect to deal with professionals as a minimum. And it’s funny, when we are the ones spending the savings of our life and with them, paying to all these so-called professionals.

The first bad impression was soon after closing the deal: vendors requested us 10k more on top of the agreed €350k (the asking price was €325k originally). We weren’t obviously happy but eventually accepted, and a new mortgage contract was issued by our bank. From there back in October 2017, little progress was achieved, although we were constantly chasing the agent and solicitor for updates, clarification and above all, trying to understand why we were stuck. The apparent issues were initially related to their mortgage and over the last 4 months, the map had to be corrected as the boundaries of the house didn’t match on the title deeds. A few months passed by and it wasn’t sorted so last January we contacted the Land Registry by ourselves (and even paid for the maps). Guess what? According to them, nothing had been amended or submitted.

In light of this finding, we eventually managed to contact one of the owners who (surprise!) lives next door: he was apologetic explaining he was under same situation, waiting for his solicitors to fix the map. We directly told him to let us know if they had other plans and not interested in selling us the house anymore, as we just wanted to stop this non sense. More lies.

We are still swallowing the fact that those immoral vendors will get more money, their solicitors their fee and <SNIP> more commission on a dishonest conduct, and all of them will get away with it. It's a slap in the face.

I understand that the job of a company is to make money, the more the better, acting on the best interest of their clients, even the unscrupulous ones. But at what extent? Where is the ethical standard of business practice, the integrity, some humanity? Will they allow the same happening to the next thrilled family hoping to buy a first new home?
It's just a shame how the Irish property market is going nowadays. 

I wonder if any of you have gone through something similar and if so, is there anything we can do about it? It’s very frustrating if you cannot even claim the expenses incurred. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to read my experience.
Regards,

godtabh

Until contracts are signed it’s always at risk. No one to blame. It’s just down to greed.

Cash_Q

It's awful that this happened to you.

We signed contracts on a property in January and were apprehensive as there was a sitting tenant whose notice had been filed improperly so their notice restarted the day we signed. Aware that the purchase couldn't go through until they vacated, our solicitor advised us that the contracts should be returned by the vendor within 1-2 weeks where a genuine sale is going through. After 2 weeks we kept the pressure on both the estate agent and the vendor's solicitor and they were eventually signed after 3 weeks in total. Thankfully the tenant has gotten somewhere else and is gone so we expect to close next week.

Going forward with a future purchase if I were you, I wouldn't hold any hope towards a purchase until contracts are signed and I would insist on them being returned within 2 weeks of your signing them. Your own solicitor shouldn't have let this drag out for so long.

Graham

Mod Note

Thread edited to remove identifying information.

OP I will leave the thread open for discussion but please don't post the address or the names of the parties involved again.

castle2012

Had a look at the house you had the deal done on. While to look at its nice. No house is worth the heartbreak. With the budget you have move outwards and I'm sure you ll find the home of your dreams. Put it down to experience

lalababa

This is it now , can't believe or rely on anything until contract is signed and exchanged. Tis the way of it in our fair greedy isle with every vested interest in the trough. Not to depress you but how much are your costs for your attempt to buy? And exactly how much time from first offer have they wasted for you?

nectarina

Exactly, down to greed. The problem is that accommodation in Ireland nowadays is not affordable any more because of that, and both buyers and tenants are at the expense of unscrupulous vendors and landlords.

Costs were related to survey and bank valuation, not much around €500. The worst part has been the time wasted, nearly 6 months since the sale agreed.

Thank you all for your supportive replies, we will definitely put it down to experience and next time we will be more cautious in general and also get another solicitor, since he didn't give us proper advice or chase the operation.

Thanks

4ensic15

nectarina wrote: »

Exactly, down to greed. The problem is that accommodation in Ireland nowadays is not affordable any more because of that, and both buyers and tenants are at the expense of unscrupulous vendors and landlords.

Costs were related to survey and bank valuation, not much around €500. The worst part has been the time wasted, nearly 6 months since the sale agreed.

Thank you all for your supportive replies, we will definitely put it down to experience and next time we will be more cautious in general and also get another solicitor, since he didn't give us proper advice or chase the operation.

Thanks

Just tell you existing landlord you are not going anywhere because of this. house hunting and conveyancing are stressful. Deals blow up constantly. An agent told me he had once seen a deal broken over 50 quid!

April 73

Nectarina - unfortunately your sellers turned out to be unscrupulous & greedy & thought they could make some extra money in a rising market.
I’m sorry this happened to you. I know that people say not to get emotionally invested in houses before the contracts are signed but it’s very difficult not to.
I hope your next experience is much more positive.

mikeymouse

misleading facts such as the house wasn’t affected by pyrite, (just to find out later on that it wasn't the case)

You're better off out of that deal, I'd say.Time and monies wasted aside
you dodged a bullet

splinter65

That wasn’t the house for you. In time you will be glad that you didn’t get it, I can promise you that.
Draw a line under it and move on I’m afraid is the advice.
Good luck.

Sleeper12

I can't imagine your solicitor being surprised at this.

When I bought my first home 30 years ago I agreed a price with a estate agent and owner so I put down a deposit. Like you I was surprised to hear that they were still advising the house and holding viewings despite our agreed price and my deposit. Rang my solicitor and was told absolutely nothing wrong with what was going on and that it was common practice. It's not yours till final contracts are signed

TheAnalyst_

Put their windows in. Sometimes karma needs a helping hand.

lazeedaisy

nectarina wrote: »

Exactly, down to greed. The problem is that accommodation in Ireland nowadays is not affordable any more because of that, and both buyers and tenants are at the expense of unscrupulous vendors and landlords.

It's not just a new problem, as long as I've been in the housing market (25 years) there are similar cases. As everyone says, be more explicit when you sign as regards time, I'm sorry you are going through this, but you will find the right house in the end

December2012

Next time if you don't want to wait, then don't wait. Presumably you wanted to keep buying. Your solicitor or your bank can't do anything about the delays from the sellers. Maybe buying a new build property would suit you next time?

Also don't give your notice until you have a binding contract in place (in fact it would be better if you didn't give it until you have your keys in your hand)

nectarina

It is a shame even if common practice; in other countries you sign a pre contract soon after closing the deal, where a time frame and conditions are set out. If any of the parties breach those terms, there are penalisations in place.

The reason for waiting that long was mainly having a baby in between, and not finding a good alternative to choose from. Next time it won't happen again, as now we know what to expect.

Thanks a million for you valuable advices and support :-)

The_Honeybadger

That’s unbelievable carry on from the vendor OP. Sorry to hear your troubles.

When we were buying we had an experience where we thought we had found the house of our dreams and we entered in to a horribly drawn out bidding process where it took weeks at a time to get feedback on our bids and the vendor just seemed like they couldn’t make up their mind. I later found out that they were refurbishing another house to move in to and were deliberately delaying the sale to coincide with their other house being ready. If this had been explained to us I would have been fine with it. We seemed to be the only bidder and thought we had a sale agreed at one point, having been given an indication by the agent that they were happy with what we had offered. Heard nothing for a month and were told the vendor was away etc.,one excuse after the next. We literally had the furniture picked out (silly I know!) until another bidder emerged and started bidding aggressively against us. We walked away in the end as it went well beyond what we felt the house was worth. It was a crushing experience having wasted months fixated on one property, I know the advice is never get attached to a house until the keys are in your hand but it’s so hard not to when you feel you are so close.

Very shortly after through a friend we found a nicer house in a more convenient location where the owner genuinely wanted a quick sale. It was never even advertised. We agreed a price within days. There was a delay closing due to an issue our solicitor raised but everyone was clear on what was happening and why. Looking back we are glad the initial house didn’t work out. It’s funny how things fall, there will always be another house. Given that the house you were looking at had pyrite issues you may well have had a lucky escape. I know that doesn’t make things better now.

theteal

Sorry to hear that, OP. That’s an absolute pi$$take.

We were gazumped last year. After 2 days of bidding, we had gone sale agreed just at our imaginary limit for that house (approved for more but not willing to go higher for that house - £336k for a 2 bed terrace with no off street parking was too much as is, I don’t care how close to London it was), happy days. So the house is off the market and I start looking for solicitors etc. The next day I got a call from the EA which I assumed was going to be about getting my solicitor info but no, she very sheepishly informed me that the vendor had received and accepted another offer and would I like to increase my offer. I laughed. Thankfully it was only a day later and I hadn’t paid anything to anybody yet.

Anyway, a year later we moved out to the sticks to a 4 bed semi for a good chunk less money and only 10 mins longer on the train to London. So much better off.

I wish you all the best OP

Graham

Weepsie wrote: »

Is there nowhere central that vendors/ agents have to formally register bids. It's too easy for them to say oh, there been a higher offer whether or not it's true

It's back to agents getting people bidding against themselves to flush every last cent.

I'd almost guarantee the agent in this case would have preferred to see the sale concluded 6 months ago rather than hanging around fielding calls from a frustrated purchaser for the sake of an extra €200 in commission.

dev_ire

They do not just get the extra comission.

They also get a happier customer and a bigger sale to advertise.

Graham

dev_ire wrote: »

They do not just get the extra comission.

They also get a happier customer and a bigger sale to advertise.

Sorry but that's real tin-foil hat stuff.

Are you suggesting it's in an estate agents interest to postpone all sales and revenue in the hope it continues to be a rising market so the agent can advertise a higher sales price and a happier customer?


Ms Estate Agent, would you like €5000 now, or €5200 in 6 months time?

I'll wait 6 months (said no estate agent ever).

Samuel T. Cogley

Never ever stop looking until you're in the door of the new place. If you find something better or you're being messed about - walk.

dev_ire

If you are down 3k (or more as your deposit may be held for some time) it is hard to walk away no?

Samuel T. Cogley

dev_ire wrote: »

If you are down 3k (or more as your deposit may be held for some time) it is hard to walk away no?

might be hard but if you've been kept waiting over 6 months in the current market you're down much more than 3K for a comparable property.

Cash_Q

dev_ire wrote:

If you are down 3k (or more as your deposit may be held for some time) it is hard to walk away no?

3k as in your booking deposit? This is refundable up to the point of signing contracts.

When people say to keep looking until you're in the door of your new place, I totally get where you're coming from, but once contracts are signed by both parties and full deposit paid you're pretty safe aren't you? Our solicitor told us that by the vendor signing he is fully committed and if he tried to pull out we could take him to court and a judge would rule in our favour.

nectarina

Exactly, until contracts are signed, any party can pull out the offer; same goes for the deposit paid to the agent (9k over 6 months), which is fully refundable until signing contracts. We weren't aware that it is common practice but on the other hand, once you start the process, with a mortgage contract issued, you send a surveyor to check the property, have your insurances on hold...it is complicated to keep looking other places in the meantime, as this could be draining enough in itself.

The state agent who handles now the deal said that they have been dealing with this house for the last 3 years!! So I guess this is not the first time that re negotiations or who-knows-what happened. I wonder if having to sell a property like this one is profitable in the long run.

This is one of the reasons we were pissed off, the agency knew about the background of their clients and didn't give any honest advice given our situation, even when we are not technically their clients.

Although the house was detached and very nice, it wasn't the house of our dreams, the location wasn't great either, so in the end we are feeling relieve. This nightmare has stopped, and who wants to have this unscrupulous guy as neighbour, anyway?? I'm glad to hear your own experiences and how eventually you found a much better place to live :-)

Cash_Q

nectarina wrote:

Exactly, until contracts are signed, any party can pull out the offer; same goes for the deposit paid to the agent (9k over 6 months), which is fully refundable until signing contracts. We weren't aware that it is common practice but on the other hand, once you start the process, with a mortgage contract issued, you send a surveyor to check the property, have your insurances on hold...it is complicated to keep looking other places in the meantime, as this could be draining enough in itself.

I agree, once you're serious about a place you shouldn't have to get multiple houses valued and surveyed. Can you even have a mortgage contract issued for multiple houses at once?

It's crap that this happened to you but I'm glad you're feeling more optimistic about it and happy that it fell through. Next time just be really forceful with a timescale for signing and if that means walking away then so be it. Anyone serious about the sale would sign and return contracts quickly, any delays should arouse suspicion.

dev_ire

No I mean if you have paid lawyers, paid for surveyor then this could be 3,000 euro and then your deposit could be locked up for a few days (or longer)

1641

nectarina wrote: »

.......next time we will be more cautious in general and also get another solicitor, since he didn't give us proper advice or chase the operation.

Thanks

Nectarina - One of the things your very distressing experience highlights is the importance of being careful choosing your solicitor.If every conveyance was straightforward then cheapest might always be best.But no one can ever be sure what will crop up. Always try to get a recommendation and look for someone with experience.

Cash_Q

Surveyor cost us approx 450.
Could a lawyer away with charging your full fees if they never get to the point of closing?! I would have thought most of their work is involved in checking over the contracts and amending them, checking land boundaries etc and then the closing process. If the contracts were never signed they couldn't haven't done 2500 worth of work.

1641

Cash_Q wrote: »

Surveyor cost us approx 450.
Could a lawyer away with charging your full fees if they never get to the point of closing?! I would have thought most of their work is involved in checking over the contracts and amending them, checking land boundaries etc and then the closing process. If the contracts were never signed they couldn't haven't done 2500 worth of work.

I certainly would not accept a fee for full whack in these circumstances - but a solicitor will expect to be paid for his/her time (any any expenses). Many will be more modest with this (maybe considerably so) if they are being retained for the purchase - presuming a purchase is still in the offing. You would need to check this out with them.

4ensic15

nectarina wrote: »

It is a shame even if common practice; in other countries you sign a pre contract soon after closing the deal, where a time frame and conditions are set out. If any of the parties breach those terms, there are penalisations in place.

)

The Law Reform Commission considered the situation in Ireland and recommended no change. A buyer would have to have all surveys and title checking done before negotiating and signing a pre-contract and the result could be that the owner would refuse to deal after the intending purchaser had gone to all that expense. The same thing can happen under any regime.

aloooof

Sounds like a horrible experience OP, appreciate you posting this hear to give others fair warning of the possibility.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Never ever stop looking until you're in the door of the new place. If you find something better or you're being messed about - walk.

Would accepted advice then be to keep biding on other suitable properties, even if you're Sale Agreed on one?

What if you're Sale Agreed on a property but the same Estate Agent has listed another house that you're interested?

Any advice much appreciated!

ams

something similar happened to my partner and I.

We were informed 6 months down the line that the house had been sold for social housing (for more than we had initially agreed).

We are since living in our dream home and thanking our lucky stars that the other house fell through.

Fingers crossed you'll be in a similar situation soon.

Samuel T. Cogley

aloooof wrote: »

Sounds like a horrible experience OP, appreciate you posting this hear to give others fair warning of the possibility.



Would accepted advice then be to keep biding on other suitable properties, even if you're Sale Agreed on one?

What if you're Sale Agreed on a property but the same Estate Agent has listed another house that you're interested?

Any advice much appreciated!

Then pull out of the sale of the first property; realising that you're going to burn your bridges with the vendor and the EA. You may very well end up coming out of a sale that's 80% complete into a quagmire. However if it's 6 months in and the first property hasn't moved it's probably time to move on. In addition the buyer pulling out can sometimes force the vendor to, if they are able, to **** or get off the pot as it were.

You don't have to bid if you keep looking but you're be in a much better position if something goes wrong with plan A.

nectarina

Do you know what the funny thing is?? That this house was actually our plan B!! We gave up on house Plan A after 2 months, because the owner who still lived there didn't find any other place to buy, and she promised to leave any way in a discussed time frame but not only she didn't but also she wasn't collaborative with the paperwork at all. So eventually we found this house...no wonder we don't have the energy to look for Plan C ;-)

GarIT

A bank did something similar to my mam. After 8 months sale agreed with the bank saying they'll get the paperwork sorted soon they turned around and said they wanted more money while she had been priced out of the market by waiting for almost a year total.

lconmara

Just got Gazumped myself today for a higher offer of 10,000 despite being at conveyancing. They gave me the option to pay the extra which I said no to. Pretty disappointed as had hired surveyors and architects after going sale agreed. Looks like this practice is back.

Samuel T. Cogley

lconmara wrote: »

Just got Gazumped myself today for a higher offer of 10,000 despite being at conveyancing. They gave me the option to pay the extra which I said no to. Pretty disappointed as had hired surveyors and architects after going sale agreed. Looks like this practice is back.

Sorry to hear, fair play for standing your ground. I hope the place the vendors by turns out to have pyrite!

jimmycrackcorm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote:

Sorry to hear, fair play for standing your ground. I hope the place the vendors by turns out to have pyrite!

Why? Every buyer who is gazumped will still look to make the maximum when they sell. Its naive to think otherwise.

Samuel T. Cogley

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why? Every buyer who is gazumped will still look to make the maximum when they sell. Its naive to think otherwise.

There's a world of difference between trying to get the best price and gazumping someone.

4ensic15

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

There's a world of difference between trying to get the best price and gazumping someone.

The difference is between the new price offered and the previous bid which is gazumped. It is usually only a few thousand. Not a "world of a difference".

Markcheese

I think in the case of getting gazumped, I'd rage and storm to the estate agent.... Delay for as long as possible. And keep coming back with counter bids of a few grand more than the gazumper...
But I'd be buying a different house completely...

Askthe EA

Markcheese wrote: »

I think in the case of getting gazumped, I'd rage and storm to the estate agent.... Delay for as long as possible. And keep coming back with counter bids of a few grand more than the gazumper...
But I'd be buying a different house completely...

Nothing to do with the EA to be fair.

Markcheese

Askthe EA wrote: »

Nothing to do with the EA to be fair.

I know that, but usually the buyer has no direct contact with vendor...

cruizer101

Its thread like these that shows there needs to be an overhaul of how houses are bought and sold in Ireland, I can't see ti happening anytime soon mind.

Auctions are actually a far fairer process as its all out in the open.

Samuel T. Cogley

cruizer101 wrote: »

Its thread like these that shows there needs to be an overhaul of how houses are bought and sold in Ireland, I can't see ti happening anytime soon mind.

Auctions are actually a far fairer process as its all out in the open.

No need to go as far as auctions. Just adopt the Scottish model of firm offers and proper valuations.

godtabh

lconmara wrote: »

Just got Gazumped myself today for a higher offer of 10,000 despite being at conveyancing. They gave me the option to pay the extra which I said no to. Pretty disappointed as had hired surveyors and architects after going sale agreed. Looks like this practice is back.

To be fair everything you did was at risk until contracts where signed. Not excusing what happened but I wouldnt have been appointing any one but the surveyor until it was signed, sealed and delivered.

4ensic15

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

No need to go as far as auctions. Just adopt the Scottish model of firm offers and proper valuations.

The Scottish model just transfers the risk to the pre-offer stage.