Will there be an investigation into why Cian Healy didn't have a HIA

vetinari

It gets lost in the excitement over the results yesterday.
That was absolutely ridiculous though. He was staggering around the field after a bang to the head. How was that not a HIA incident?
Makes the concussion protocol look like a shambles.
Also seemed strange from an Irish perspective to be taking that kind of risk at a position where we have a very good replacement.

Burkie1203

vetinari wrote: »

It gets lost in the excitement over the results yesterday.
That was absolutely ridiculous though. He was staggering around the field after a bang to the head. How was that not a HIA incident?
Makes the concussion protocol look like a shambles.
Also seemed strange from an Irish perspective to be taking that kind of risk at a position where we have a very good replacement.

Look at tv3 yesterday. They addressed it fairly well i thought.

IRFU will submit a report and there is an independent medical assessment. Just because a player staggers does not equate to head injury.

sydthebeat

the press release from the IRFU todays said

Cian Healy suffered a stinger-like injury to the shoulder/trapezius area, He experienced some discomfort on the field and received the appropriate treatment. Cian will train fully this week.”

CatFromHue

At the time I thought it was a shoulder injury he had and looking back I still think that.

From 44mins on the youtube clock.

To me he's always carrying his shoulder/arm and that's why he's walking so funny.

I was watching the match with a friend of mine over from France and he was convinced it was just a bad bang to the knee and nothing more.

irishfan9

HYSTERIA

vetinari

The blow was clearly to the side of the head.
He was unsteady on his feet immediately afterwards.
That is textbook HIA.
It might not be a head injury but should be an automatic HIA.

Buer

There are two incidents. The first is a tackle on Barclay at 43m 15s where he catches an elbow into the side of the neck. This is the stinger.

The second is just after 44m where he tackles Hogg and cops a knock into the side of the head which looks to exacerbate the stinger. With that said, he clearly takes a knock to the head there and should have been removed for a HIA, I think.

There doesn't appear to have been any lasting effects and the medical team are checking him solely for movement of his neck and shoulder but you can't be sure with a knock to the head.

7oakse

It’s quite strange. We have someone who can more than adequately cover for Healy in the form of Mcgrath – I don’t know why there would have been a reluctance for him to come off. You could maybe understand if there wasn’t anyone in reserve.
I’ve watched it back a few times, a line of thought I had is that he was crouched over on the floor for quite a while – stood up very quickly as the Scots attacked where he was and had a rush of blood to the head causing a bit of a sway? That could be clutching at straws.

Needs to be a statement on the medics reasoning.

vetinari

vetinari wrote: »

The blow was clearly to the side of the head.
He was unsteady on his feet immediately afterwards.
That is textbook HIA.
It might not be a head injury but should be an automatic HIA.

At 34:03 on the match clock Healy is involved in a collision. Get's straight up but is in discomfort holding the back of his head / neck on his right side. He's had nerve issues on that side that kept him out of the game for extended periods.

The collision is actually from the other side so if I had to guess by where his hand went upto I'd say it was a whiplash type injury.

He's walking around but you can tell he is in discomfort. He is perfectly steady however.

He's involved again in an aggressive tackle and counter ruck at 34:45 from which he gets back to his feet without issue.

He then makes a covering run of around 15 minutes to get into a position to defend a Scottish advance and he falls off a tackle at 34:53. He immediately reaches up and holds the side of his head (same side as earlier) and bends double. He doesn't lose consciousness and there is no real head impact. This doesn't mean he wasn't after suffering a head injury.

The big thing for me is that he is on the ground less than 4 seconds and a medic is over to him. He is on his knees and communicating. I think if there was a concussion issue the medic will be able to offer some insight there.

When play moves back towards him he gets up very gingerly and his right arm is hanging by his side. He is either staggering from a head injury, or staggering from pain from the stinger. It looked at the time like he was concussed but on repeat viewing I can understand how this might not be the case if he was in severe pain from his neck down his right arm. It's possible for pain to interfere with movement and steadiness.

It's not clear cut enough to be pointing a finger at the medics / IRFU. The situation will need to be explained to World Rugby I'd imagine.

I've probably not seen all the angles so maybe there is some damning evidence that I've missed but I'm not overly concerned about an investigation at this point. I'd like to have seen him taken off for a HIA though, there was enough evidence for this to be warranted, unless he clearly told the medic on the deck that it was a stinger and he hadn't received a knock to the head.

irishbucsfan

There should absolutely be an investigation. There's not doubt whatsoever that he got a visible knock to the head and so a HIA should have happened. They failed in that regard and there should be an investigation into why. Doesn't mean anything would come of it.

Trojan

If he clearly told the physio that it was a stinger & related to his previous injury, I can see why they felt they wouldn't need to go to HIA.

arsebiscuits1

Oh god. All this thread will do is invite some head cases and their pitch forks.

IRFU released a statement. That should be enough.

Mike Ross himself said over on Reddit how it was a stinger. I feel he'd be much more ITK than some nobody on boards who wants to make some noise

Trojan

I don't think it was a HIA, but in fairness to those questioning, we have seem some really dodgy goings on in this regard this season.

sydthebeat

Trojan wrote: »

If he clearly told the physio that it was a stinger & related to his previous injury, I can see why they felt they wouldn't need to go to HIA.

theres good reasons you dont leave the diagnosis to what the player says.

Trojan

sydthebeat wrote: »

theres good reasons you dont leave the diagnosis to what the player says.

Ah c'mon. There's a world of difference between a player coming back off a long term injury saying "yeah, I tweaked that again" versus someone trying to walk off a bang on the head with "I'm fine guv'nor".

Hoboo

He wobbles around training like that all the time, just the way he is. The medics don't take chances anymore, and they didn't on Saturday. He's grand.

masseyno9

I disagree that Healy saying it was a stinger negates the need for a HIA. Players will always say what ever they need to say to stay on the pitch. I've done it, as have a lot of guys I've played with. "just tweaked my neck a bit, I'm grand," kind of a situation. Not recommended, but it's what players do when they want to stay on and contribute to a win. 
This is the very reason there is an independent doctor brought in to administer the HIA protocol. Healy may not have injured his head, but on the video (I haven't watched it back, but remember clearly what I saw on Saturday) it is clear he takes a hit to the head so should have a HIA performed. If there's no injury, he'll pass that and come back on...no issue. I don't think it is a huge issue as Healy was/is clearly fine, but there is a lesson to be learned for someone, somewhere. Was somebody afraid to insist on the HIA following the France scenario, maybe?

sydthebeat

Trojan wrote: »

Ah c'mon. There's a world of difference between a player coming back off a long term injury saying "yeah, I tweaked that again" versus someone trying to walk off a bang on the head with "I'm fine guv'nor".

the doctor has to include a lot of factors into determining the extend of an injury, be it head or otherwise. What the player says is actually not one of the significant factors.
Physically an injury can be assessed through movement and force checks.

for a head impact, what a player says is absolutely not a significant factor, unless of course the players words are jumbled and its clear they are out of sorts.
You wouldnt at all accept what a player sayings regarding a head impact at amateur level.
At a professional level they have the HIA assessment as a crutch to fall back on, so they should take what a players says with even less significance.

edit: just to be clear, im not saying anyone was wrong or right in regard to this incident.

siltirocker

Having been at the game it was poor to see.

Off camera for a 3-5 minutes period he barely knew where he was. He was getting up and stumbling around like Danie Rossouw. People in the crowd around me where all talking about it for sometime.

prawnsambo

siltirocker wrote: »

Having been at the game it was poor to see.

Off camera for a 3-5 minutes period he barely knew where he was. He was getting up and stumbling around like Danie Rossouw. People in the crowd around me where all talking about it for sometime.

He got up after being treated, joined the line, then joined a ruck. Joined the next ruck and resisted being shunted out. Murray box-kicked and play resumed with a ruck on the 10m line. Healy was the first receiver from that one and trucked it up but was tackled behind the gain line. He was back in the line for the next ruck and had a physio come out to him again for a couple of seconds. He then joined the next ruck and then there was a knock on by Ryan after the next ruck. At that point with a scrum coming and a break in play, he got more treatment. The entire episode from the tackle on Hogg to the knock on lasted two minutes.

prawnsambo

The injury they treated him for was to the shoulder/neck area. This screen grab is from just after they treated him and he was about to join the scrum. He's clearly working on that area. Now that doesn't mean that he shouldn't have required a HIA, but this to me is the flip side of what happened in Paris. We had two clear lower limb injuries that went for HIA because the players concerned went down like a sack of spuds and remained motionless for a time after being injured. And that's not unusual either. Serious pain will have you unwilling (or afraid) to move until it subsides a bit.

siltirocker

prawnsambo wrote: »

He got up after being treated, joined the line, then joined a ruck. Joined the next ruck and resisted being shunted out. Murray box-kicked and play resumed with a ruck on the 10m line. Healy was the first receiver from that one and trucked it up but was tackled behind the gain line. He was back in the line for the next ruck and had a physio come out to him again for a couple of seconds. He then joined the next ruck and then there was a knock on by Ryan after the next ruck. At that point with a scrum coming and a break in play, he got more treatment. The entire episode from the tackle on Hogg to the knock on lasted two minutes.

I am not trying to sound snarky but the fact is simple: off camera, he stood up, wobbled and fell over like a drunk man. This happened moments before your blow by blow account above begins. It was met by an audible gasp from the crowd on that end. It was then that was first treated.

prawnsambo

siltirocker wrote: »

I am not trying to sound snarky but the fact is simple: off camera, he stood up, wobbled and fell over like a drunk man. This happened moments before your blow by blow account above begins. It was met by an audible gasp from the crowd on that end. It was then that was first treated.

Well then we have to be talking about different incidents. I'm talking about the one referenced above in the [now deleted] YouTube clip which happened around 34:50 on the match clock. In that incident he didn't get up at all until after a physio came on to the pitch and play came towards his side. He then got up after receiving a bit of treatment and was clearly favouring his right side; was leaning to his right with his head cocked slightly right as well. And that's the point from where I started my 'blow by blow' account.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There should absolutely be an investigation. There's not doubt whatsoever that he got a visible knock to the head and so a HIA should have happened. They failed in that regard and there should be an investigation into why. Doesn't mean anything would come of it.

This.

I don't think the medics here would have been playing silly buggars and I would question why the neutral doc didn't call it too. He should have been checked. But at the same time I'm far from convinced that he'd have been found to have been concussed. He looked in some discomfort after the fact, but nothing that would scream concussion.

Quint2010

Just watched the game back and I'm not doctor but Healy clearly took an elbow to the head whilst tackling Hogg and was staggering around for several moments after. He was ripe for a HIA.

prawnsambo

Quint2010 wrote: »

Just watched the game back and I'm not doctor but Healy clearly took an elbow to the head whilst tackling Hogg and was staggering around for several moments after. He was ripe for a HIA.

Is this the same incident that was referenced above in the YouTube clip? Because I'm just having difficulty reconciling that clip with what people are saying, so am starting to believe that there was another incident?

Buer

Obviously the clip is down for the moment but from what I recall of the Hogg incident, Healy went straight down and didn't get back up until he rejoined play, brushing off the attention of the medic.

He should have gone for a HIA by virtue of taking a blow to the side of the head but I didn't see any of this staggering or being clearly unsteady at any point.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Obviously the clip is down for the moment but from what I recall of the Hogg incident, Healy went straight down and didn't get back up until he rejoined play, brushing off the attention of the medic.

He should have gone for a HIA by virtue of taking a blow to the side of the head but I didn't see any of this staggering or being clearly unsteady at any point.

I remember him staggering pretty wildly alright, looked out of it. That does not mean it was a concussion however. There are guys who have known balance issues due to ongoing conditions.

Haven't seen it back on the player yet due to hangover/work.

swiwi_

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I remember him staggering pretty wildly alright, looked out of it. That does not mean it was a concussion however.

So reading between the lines, your take is that Healy had a few pints before the match

masseyno9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I remember him staggering pretty wildly alright, looked out of it.  That does not mean it was a concussion however.  There are guys who have known balance issues due to ongoing conditions.

It does mean he should have had a HIA though. If someone gets a head knock and then in the immediate aftermath, staggers back into the line, they should be assessed to determine if they have a concussion. Healy was not assessed, therefore there is something wrong with how the protocol was administered. No harm was done, so it shouldn't be blown out of proportion, but it is yet another learning experience on how to manage the HIA protocol.

thebaz

Faux hysteria - not every injury in rugby is to the head - it sells papers and a few here get all bothered about any kind of possible head injury ever since that American film - Johnny Sexton kept get inferred he was suffering concussion , when people did not know the facts. Absolutly lets try and stamp out concussion in game , but less shock hysteria, when many dont know the solid facts or are not doctors.

Buer

thebaz wrote: »

Faux hysteria - not every injury in rugby is to the head - it sells papers and a few here get all bothered about any kind of possible head injury ever since that American film - Johnny Sexton kept get inferred he was suffering concussion , when people did not know the facts. Absolutly lets try and stamp out concussion in game , but less shock hysteria, when many dont know the solid facts or are not doctors.

Nobody is calling is a concussion. I don't believe he has one. People are simply saying that Healy should have gone for a HIA. He took a heavy enough knock to the head which is clearly seen on camera. Get him off, do the HIA, give him the all clear and he's good to return to play.

By not removing him for an assessment, they've created a discussion when there didn't need to be any.

The issue isn't whether or not Healy is concussed, it's whether proper medical precautions were taken to best serve the player and that doesn't appear to be the case.

thebaz

Buer wrote: »

Nobody is calling is a concussion. I don't believe he has one. People are simply saying that Healy should have gone for a HIA. He took a heavy enough knock to the head which is clearly seen on camera. Get him off, do the HIA, give him the all clear and he's good to return to play.

By not removing him for an assessment, they've created a discussion when there didn't need to be any.

The issue isn't whether or not Healy is concussed, it's whether proper medical precautions were taken to best serve the player and that doesn't appear to be the case.

People are now the doctors - it was the same with Sexton , people (and the Press) were all experts when they did not know the facts - ther just seams to be a little hysteria ever since that film , when everyone seams an expert - The Irish medical team would know a lot more than people here inferring outrage or bad standards.

molloyjh

thebaz wrote: »

People are now the doctors - it was the same with Sexton , people (and the Press) were all experts when they did not know the facts - ther just seams to be a little hysteria ever since that film , when everyone seams an expert - The Irish medical team would know a lot more than people here inferring outrage or bad standards.

Wow, you didn't read his post at all did you?

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

Wow, you didn't read his post at all did you?

Well it is really. The protocol starts with an on-field assessment (there may also be a review of footage). Following that, the decision is made as to whether or not a HIA is required.

Former Former

He should have gone off for a HIA. Maybe if it had been earlier in the game, he would have, but it was only a couple of minutes to half time and maybe they figured he'd make it to the break.

The IRFU do not have a good track record on this issue.

thebaz

molloyjh wrote: »

Wow, you didn't read his post at all did you?

Wow - actually i did