How to attach heavy objects to ceilings

armabelle

I am trying to understand how to attach a ceiling fan and I have the instructions but it says you must use the appropriate screws/bolts depending on the material of the ceiling. I was recommended some false ceiling screws in a DIY store but I soon discovered that my ceiling is not hollow. It is a layer of plaster about an inch deep over what I think is solid concrete because my drill bit just stops once it hits this. The ceiling fan weighs around 6kg and is obviously a dangerous thing to not be attached properly so could anyone give me a hand with regards to installing it? Also on a side note, can someone help me understand why ceilings are sometimes hollow and sometimes not?
Thanks a bunch

notharrypotter

Do you live in an apartment block or a standard house or a stand alone multistory house with precast concrete floor's ?

armabelle

Hey there,  it is a multistorey attached house... precast concrete floors could be a possibility. How can I be sure and more importantly, how does one attach heavier objects to these types of ceilings?

endacl

If one doesn’t know, one should employ the services of one who does.

mfceiling

armabelle wrote: »

Hey there,  it is a multistorey attached house... precast concrete floors could be a possibility. How can I be sure and more importantly, how does one attach heavier objects to these types of ceilings?

You need an 'sds' drill which will go into precast concrete. Then you need a metal Hammer in anchor fixing. I'm surprised there is no void. Where are the cables for your lights running? I can't believe they have been plastered over!!

armabelle

mfceiling wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

Hey there,  it is a multistorey attached house... precast concrete floors could be a possibility. How can I be sure and more importantly, how does one attach heavier objects to these types of ceilings?

You need an 'sds' drill which will go into precast concrete. Then you need a metal Hammer in anchor fixing. I'm surprised there is no void. Where are the cables for your lights running? I can't believe they have been plastered over!!

Hey there ceiling! Could the cables be running in the void within the precast concrete? between the plaster and concrete there is no void at all. Won't a normal hammer drill work for this concrete?

armabelle

mfceiling wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

Hey there,  it is a multistorey attached house... precast concrete floors could be a possibility. How can I be sure and more importantly, how does one attach heavier objects to these types of ceilings?

You need an 'sds' drill which will go into precast concrete. Then you need a metal Hammer in anchor fixing. I'm surprised there is no void. Where are the cables for your lights running? I can't believe they have been plastered over!!

just checked and the cables run within the plaster, the plaster is around 1-2 inches thick

mfceiling

armabelle wrote: »

Hey there ceiling! Could the cables be running in the void within the precast concrete? between the plaster and concrete there is no void at all. Won't a normal hammer drill work for this concrete?

Normal hammer drill is for soft blocks/bricks etc. An SDS drill is the only job for precast concrete.

Tell me how

endacl wrote:

If one doesn’t know, one should employ the services of one who does.

This.
Or ask a friend who knows and whoever does the job, chat to them about it while they are doing it.

Nothing to be embarrassed about to have to ask for assistance but there's so many factors at play here, it's best get help.

armabelle

mfceiling wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

Hey there ceiling! Could the cables be running in the void within the precast concrete? between the plaster and concrete there is no void at all. Won't a normal hammer drill work for this concrete?

Normal hammer drill is for soft blocks/bricks etc. An SDS drill is the only job for precast concrete.

Ok thanks. Can't I use a thick fixing in the plaster? The ceiling fan weighs 6kg.

notharrypotter

armabelle wrote: »

Ok thanks. Can't I use a thick fixing in the plaster? The ceiling fan weighs 6kg.

Plaster sits on top of the wall/ceiling. In itself it is not usually a structure capable of bearing a load.
Ideally you need to secure the weight to something capable of taking it.

As suggested you are probably best advised to get someone to look at it for you.

salmocab

A fan by its nature will move so even if you put it up and it feels secure it may not be after a a few months. Constant pulling on the fixing will mean it will come loose if it’s only fixed into plaster as the plaster will crumble. You need a sound structural fixing.

armabelle

notharrypotter wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

Ok thanks. Can't I use a thick fixing in the plaster? The ceiling fan weighs 6kg.

Plaster sits on top of the wall/ceiling. In itself it is not usually a structure capable of bearing a load.
Ideally you need to secure the weight to something capable of taking it.

As suggested you are probably best advised to get someone to look at it for you.

Thanks, that makes total sense. I do want to learn to do it myself though so I gave it another go. With a smaller drill bit using a normal hand drill it went through the concrete above the plaster. So now I just need to find the appropriate expansion anchor

armabelle

salmocab wrote: »

A fan by its nature will move so even if you put it up and it feels secure it may not be after a a few months. Constant pulling on the fixing will mean it will come loose if it’s only fixed into plaster as the plaster will crumble. You need a sound structural fixing.

Ok thanks for the advice. I will never depend on the plaster for anything that heavy again. It would be nice to know the make up of my ceiling though for future installations. Is it possible that there is steel in some parts of the concrete above the plaster layer that doesn't allow drilling in some places?

autumnalcore

armabelle wrote: »

It is a layer of plaster about an inch deep over what I think is solid concrete because my drill bit just stops once it hits this.

If this based on a trial of one hole could be a nail, steel strap, metal conduit etc.

Tap the around the ceiling with your knuckles or the handle of screwdriver if it concrete it will sound solid, if is plasterboard it will sound hollow.

Hammer drill is fine in precast for a once in a while hole just use a proper carbide tipped bit and don't overheat it, if its a really piddly drill start with a 3/4mm bit.

fred funk }{

You should never drill into something if you're not 100% sure what it is.

armabelle

fred funk }{ wrote: »

You should never drill into something if you're not 100% sure what it is.

That sounds sensible enough. So how do you know without drilling into it?

armabelle

autumnalcore wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

It is a layer of plaster about an inch deep over what I think is solid concrete because my drill bit just stops once it hits this.

If this based on a trial of one hole could be a nail, steel strap, metal conduit etc.

Tap the around the ceiling with your knuckles or the handle of screwdriver if it concrete it will sound solid, if is plasterboard it will sound hollow.

Hammer drill is fine in precast for a once in a while hole just use a proper carbide tipped bit and don't overheat it, if its a really piddly drill start with a 3/4mm bit.

The first thing I did was tap on the ceiling to look for a hollow sound but in this case it is not hollow anywhere. It sounds solid back there across the whole ceiling. What I am hoping to learn is what to do next in this situation. If the ceiling is not hollow anywhere, what next steps can we take to figure out how it was built so that we can know what anchors to use or if to use anchors. In my case, I drilled a hole but as another poster said, this is not recommended until you know what the material is

Edward M

Is your ceiling fan electric or battery?
If its electric you need to have it wired in, for that you need an electrician, unless you plan to just leave a cable hanging.
If you could describe the job better it would be better, but if it needs electrical connecting its not a job for Daniel O Donnell or you.:)

armabelle

Edward M wrote: »

Is your ceiling fan electric or battery?
If its electric you need to have it wired in, for that you need an electrician, unless you plan to just leave a cable hanging.
If you could describe the job better it would be better, but if it needs electrical connecting its not a job for Daniel O Donnell or you.:)

Thanks but I want to be able to do my own installations sooner or later so I am trying to learn. Thanks for the recommendations

Edward M

armabelle wrote: »

Thanks but I want to be able to do my own installations sooner or later so I am trying to learn. Thanks for the recommendations

That's OK, but legally now if you have have it wired up by a connection that's not a plug in you must use a certified electrician.
Your house insurance is void if you don't.

armabelle

Edward M wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

Thanks but I want to be able to do my own installations sooner or later so I am trying to learn. Thanks for the recommendations

That's OK, but legally now if you have have it wired up by a connection that's not a plug in you must use a certified electrician.
Your house insurance is void if you don't.

So what you are saying is that in Ireland it is illegal to install your own ceiling fan if it is wired directly to the mains and not by a plug?

armabelle

There seems to be a lot of "nudging" in this thread for me to start considering hiring someone to do my DIY work when all I wanted was some advice. I understand some people might be desperate for new work but I honestly am just a guy trying to learn DIY and thought this a suitable forum to ask some questions regarding the topic.

aido79

armabelle wrote: »

Thanks but I want to be able to do my own installations sooner or later so I am trying to learn. Thanks for the recommendations

It's illegal for you to do your own electrical installations. No offence but going by the questions you have asked and your obvious lack of knowledge there is no way you should attempt to do this job.
The fan may stay up for a week, a month or a year if it not properly secured but do you really want to take the risk of it coming loose and doing some real damage /injury just to save some money?

aaakev

armabelle wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of "nudging" in this thread for me to start considering hiring someone to do my DIY work when all I wanted was some advice. I understand some people might be desperate for new work but I honestly am just a guy trying to learn DIY and thought this a suitable forum to ask some questions regarding the topic.

No one is stopping you doing diy, fire away. People are recommending you be safe and get someone who knows what they are doing to help because you dont sound like you have much of a clue to be perfectly honest. I dont mean that to sound harsh its just my observation and i wouldnt like to be staying in your house if you have done the electric work yourself.

James 007

armabelle wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of "nudging" in this thread for me to start considering hiring someone to do my DIY work when all I wanted was some advice. I understand some people might be desperate for new work but I honestly am just a guy trying to learn DIY and thought this a suitable forum to ask some questions regarding the topic.

There should be a long threaded bolt attached to the end of the Fan, and it needs to be held in place using a locking nut, the clip below shows brief snippets of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFuYIi5-igc

Tell me how

armabelle wrote:

There seems to be a lot of "nudging" in this thread for me to start considering hiring someone to do my DIY work when all I wanted was some advice. I understand some people might be desperate for new work but I honestly am just a guy trying to learn DIY and thought this a suitable forum to ask some questions regarding the topic.

I don't mean any disrespect but you're asking for advice on cooking a Sunday dinner when you don't know how to boil an egg.

Moreso with electricity involved. If you use a ceiling fan with a plug/socket, you're very likely not using it as per manufacturers recommendations and that product was (likely) not CE certified with that type of use in mind meaning there may be risks in doing so.

I suggested already, get someone to do it, watch, observe what they are doing and ask questions while they're working.

I admire someone trying to learn but you need to recognize a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

chris445

mfceiling wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

Hey there ceiling! Could the cables be running in the void within the precast concrete? between the plaster and concrete there is no void at all. Won't a normal hammer drill work for this concrete?

Normal hammer drill is for soft blocks/bricks etc. An SDS drill is the only job for precast concrete.

Just for sone carity on this. An SDS is not a type of drill. SDS is a type of chuck that is usually used on hammer action drills. A normal hammer action drill with a power lead will work fine for this once you go nice and slow and have a decent bit. The ones where you need a chuck key to tighten. Smaller battery powered drills (18v or less) have hammer action but should only really be used for lighter materials. A 36v hammer action battery drill should have no issues and will usually have an sds chuck too.

Edward M

armabelle wrote: »

So what you are saying is that in Ireland it is illegal to install your own ceiling fan if it is wired directly to the mains and not by a plug?

Yes.

keithdub

40 to 50 euro to get it fitted and it's peace of mind

armabelle

keithdub wrote: »

40 to 50 euro to get it fitted and it's peace of mind

it already is fitted but thanks for the offer

aido79

armabelle wrote: »

it already is fitted but thanks for the offer

Are you 100% sure it is going to stay there? What did you use to fix it to the ceiling? I have fitted many ceiling fans and would be confident enough to do chinups from them. Could you say the same about yours?
On the electrical side of things...what type of switch does it use? Is it just on/off or are there different speeds?

laotg

Have you now done the electrical work yourself? A few things to consider. If something goes wrong your insurance will be void so you will be left homeless. If someone is harmed by your negligence you could be facing real jail time. So I'd be asking if its really worth the risk. I wouldn't be happy if my house was attached to yours.

Edward M

laotg wrote: »

Have you now done the electrical work yourself? A few things to consider. If something goes wrong your insurance will be void so you will be left homeless. If someone is harmed by your negligence you could be facing real jail time. So I'd be asking if its really worth the risk. I wouldn't be happy if my house was attached to yours.

Exactly.
All gas and electrical connections now have to be certified by fully registered and qualified fitters.
Even the old gas bottle outside with the pipe coming through the wall!

armabelle

aido79 wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

it already is fitted but thanks for the offer

Are you 100% sure it is going to stay there? What did you use to fix it to the ceiling? I have fitted many ceiling fans and would be confident enough to do chinups from them. Could you say the same about yours?  
On the electrical side of things...what type of switch does it use? Is it just on/off or are there different speeds?

Yes and Yes! It is hardly rocket science. And connecting 3 electrical wires is also easy enough. It is remote controlled, the light switch turns it on too

armabelle

laotg wrote: »

Have you now done the electrical work yourself? A few things to consider. If something goes wrong your insurance will be void so you will be left homeless. If someone is harmed by your negligence you could be facing real jail time. So I'd be asking if its really worth the risk. I wouldn't be happy if my house was attached to yours.

Yes did it myself..when you say "all" the electrical work do you mean the connection of 3 electricity cables?

armabelle

Edward M wrote: »

laotg wrote: »

Have you now done the electrical work yourself? A few things to consider. If something goes wrong your insurance will be void so you will be left homeless. If someone is harmed by your negligence you could be facing real jail time. So I'd be asking if its really worth the risk. I wouldn't be happy if my house was attached to yours.

Exactly.
All gas and electrical connections now have to be certified by fully registered and qualified fitters.
Even the old gas bottle outside with the pipe coming through the wall!

gosh now I just feel sorry for all Irish homeowners, can you at least install a light to the ceiling in Ireland nowadays?

laotg

armabelle wrote:

Yes did it myself..when you say "all" the electrical work do you mean the connection of 3 electricity cables?

I didn't say "all".

laotg

armabelle wrote:

gosh now I just feel sorry for all Irish homeowners, can you at least install a light to the ceiling in Ireland

If something goes wrong you're bunched. It's concerning that you've gone from not knowing how to drill a hole in a ceiling to playing with electricity. Will you be installing gas boilers tomorrow?

armabelle

Hopefully

Edward M

armabelle wrote: »

gosh now I just feel sorry for all Irish homeowners, can you at least install a light to the ceiling in Ireland nowadays?

You can, but you can't legally create a new point or extend one in your own house even, unless you are fully qualified.
Anyone could easily do an electrical connection, as you say its not rocket science, but making a new power point or connection is illegal unless you're a qualified electrician.

CJhaughey

OP is in France, Irish Law doesn't apply there.

Edward M

CJhaughey wrote: »

OP is in France, Irish Law doesn't apply there.

Well maybe he should have just said that.
He should also check French law, because he didn't seem to know fcuk all about it at all.
Basically anyway, whether in timbucktoo, France or Ireland, for safety reasons alone anywhere, an overhead fan because of its movement and danger of falling on heads and its electrical connection, should be done by a qualified installer.

Tell me how

CJhaughey wrote: »

OP is in France, Irish Law doesn't apply there.

Edward M wrote: »

Well maybe he should have just said that.
He should also check French law, because he didn't seem to know fcuk all about it at all.
Basically anyway, whether in timbucktoo, France or Ireland, for safety reasons alone anywhere, an overhead fan because of its movement and danger of falling on heads and its electrical connection, should be done by a qualified installer.

Given the level of knowledge present, the legality of completing the work is not the primary issue*. The safety of those in the vicinity of the work should be enough to recognize the need to get someone who knows what they are doing involved.

* Thats not to say the legal side is unimportant.

armabelle

Edward M wrote: »

armabelle wrote: »

gosh now I just feel sorry for all Irish homeowners, can you at least install a light to the ceiling in Ireland nowadays?

You can, but you can't legally create a new point or extend one in your own house even, unless you are fully qualified.
Anyone  could easily do an electrical connection, as you say its not rocket science, but making a new power point or connection is illegal unless you're a qualified electrician.

Well the only electrical work required in the installation of the ceiling fan is connecting the three cables. So I doubt this is ilegal in Ireland.

armabelle

CJhaughey wrote: »

OP is in France, Irish Law doesn't apply there.

am not

armabelle

Tell me how wrote: »

CJhaughey wrote: »

OP is in France, Irish Law doesn't apply there.

Edward M wrote: »

Well maybe he should have just said that.
He should also check French law, because he didn't seem to know fcuk all about it at all.
Basically anyway, whether in timbucktoo, France or Ireland, for safety reasons alone anywhere, an overhead fan because of its movement and danger of falling on heads and its electrical connection, should be done by a qualified installer.

Given the level of knowledge present, the legality of completing the work is not the primary issue*. The safety of those in the vicinity of the work should be enough to recognize the need to get someone who knows what they are doing involved.

* Thats not to say the legal side is unimportant.

Ok how much do you charge?

Edward M

armabelle wrote: »

Ok how much do you charge?

I'm not qualified? But I can put you in touch with a good lad.

the_pen_turner

im a carpenter so have no horse in this game. but did work for a spark for a while
i would be nervious attaching a fan to the ceiling . it moves and can work itself loose.
i have wired up stuff loads of time but have done it knowing its ilegal. i would be very nervious about anyone who isnt confident enough to know what to do

Edward M

armabelle wrote: »

Well the only electrical work required in the installation of the ceiling fan is connecting the three cables. So I doubt this is ilegal in Ireland.

I think it is though, I think all you can legally do is change a plug.
I do a bit of maintainance, am insured for my work, but I can't even change a plug with my insurance and health and safety, I have to get a lecci to do it.
There could be an issue with insurance really if there is any problems, I have seen loads of small claims turned down because of it.

CJhaughey

armabelle wrote: »

am not

Ok my mistake southern Spain.