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Russian Long range Nuclear declaration

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  • 07-03-2018 5:42pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 33,795 ✭✭✭✭


    So Putin has come out with a Speech indicating they have developed an unstoppable long range nuclear missile that can reach anywhere on earth and cannot be stopped by anti missile systems.

    Having spent the last decade with subterfuge via the Internet and now strong arming via Arms threats.

    What is their to gain from this, who is the audience?

    Have we reverted back to the mid 20th century with the rise in Facist views even in Europe.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/01/putin-new-russia-missile-nuclear.html


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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I’m not sure there is much of a link between recent European events and Russia. It seems to me that Russia has been on a bit of a nationalism bent for the last, what, fifteen, twenty years?

    They went from being a world-influencing superpower, maybe even hyperpower, to just another large country. This has evidently rankled Putin and folks like him, who believe that Russia has a larger place on the world stage.

    The audience is twofold. To Russians, it seems to be “be proud of yourselves. We are a great people, and we will be here for each other. We will do what it takes, like annexing Crimea, to ensure that Russian peoples will look after other Russian peoples. We will protect you, our military will ensure it”

    To the rest of the world, “We are going to help those who will help us attain our goals of a secure, stable, prosperous Russia. We are demonstrating willingness and capability to use all four instruments of national power to achieve this, including by reinvigoration of our military capability.”

    I mean, I guess there could be a connection. “I have a cunning plan. We shall destabilize Europe, this large rival to our own success, by keeping Assad in power, continuing the war and keeping the influx of refugees to Europe. Europe shall then finish the work of destabilizing itself, thus achieving our goal. Muahahahahaha!”


  • Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    I’m not sure there is much of a link between recent European events and Russia. It seems to me that Russia has been on a bit of a nationalism bent for the last, what, fifteen, twenty years?

    They went from being a world-influencing superpower, maybe even hyperpower, to just another large country. This has evidently rankled Putin and folks like him, who believe that Russia has a larger place on the world stage.

    The audience is twofold. To Russians, it seems to be “be proud of yourselves. We are a great people, and we will be here for each other. We will do what it takes, like annexing Crimea, to ensure that Russian peoples will look after other Russian peoples. We will protect you, our military will ensure it”

    To the rest of the world, “We are going to help those who will help us attain our goals of a secure, stable, prosperous Russia. We are demonstrating willingness and capability to use all four instruments of national power to achieve this, including by reinvigoration of our military capability.”

    I mean, I guess there could be a connection. “I have a cunning plan. We shall destabilize Europe, this large rival to our own success, by keeping Assad in power, continuing the war and keeping the influx of refugees to Europe. Europe shall then finish the work of destabilizing itself, thus achieving our goal. Muahahahahaha!”

    You could literally transpose Russia for the US in this post and it would make the same salient point.

    Both nations inhabited by rabid nationalists who believe they are superior to everyone and now they are having another willy measuring contest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Vladimir Poontang


    Seems like a logical response to NATO and U.S. moves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    In all honesty though putting out Nuclear Declarations a mute point considering noone even has a motive or reason to invade Russia anymore.

    Lets be honest Russia does have a few bones to pick with the US after the fall of the USSR its understandable to that degree. The problem is that their approach with Putin has been rather self-defeating because they tend to alienate themselves from the likes of Europe and even their own neighbors. That and the rampant corruption and cronyism hasn't exactly done them any favours either.

    Realistically the problem is that they seem to have a grudge and have been taking it out by undermining the west whenever they can. Ironically if they cleaned up their act somewhat and at least stopped antagonising Europe they would have a better standing than they currently do but they're getting worse and not better with their own approach.


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭GalwayMark


    Havockk wrote: »
    You could literally transpose Russia for the US in this post and it would make the same salient point.

    Both nations inhabited by rabid nationalists who believe they are superior to everyone and now they are having another willy measuring contest.

    A Better comparsion would be the brexiteers or more precisely greater england nationalists since they haven't learnt to accept others as equals hence the need to support any movement wanting to supposedly bring the EU down or gain enough leverage to secure favourable deals.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Seems like a logical response to NATO and U.S. moves.

    You'd nearly think that the US unilaterally leaving the ABM treaty in 2002 and, threatening to install missile defence systems in eastern Europe and NATO moving ever-closer to Russia's borders states had no effect at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Putin is in it for Putin. Like any dictator.
    The sabre rattling is two fold; attempt to quell sanctions and dismiss the current Russian destabilising campaign's on other nations and play to the nationalist sentiment of the Russian populous.
    Trump was bragging about more nukes a few weeks back, Putin is responding in kind.
    Russia is at war with the rest of the world, albeit a cyber war, murdering ex-spies aside.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Yeah I saw that poor guy and his daugher myself on the news and thought "whats the point trying to kill him now?". Actually worse for the girl since as far as I'm aware shes an innocent party.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    listermint wrote: »
    What is their to gain from this, who is the audience?
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/01/putin-new-russia-missile-nuclear.html
    The first clue is in your link; "... in his annual State of the Union address"
    The second is that the first round of elections is on March 18th.
    For the domestic audience primarily, then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,316 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    He's trying to restore the principle of Mutually assured destruction which had been eroded by the US claims that their missile defence shields might allow them to 'win' a nuclear war.

    Putin has no missile Shield, so to counter Americas shield they needed more elusive offensive weapons.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Facts to consider:

    There is a full scale cyber war in operation by Russia against Western democracies. (see attached) 20 countries have been attacked, many successfully, including the US and UK. This can more or less be explained by the Gerasimov doctrine. The information Warfare techniques were perfected by Vladislav Surkov against Russia itself.
    Surkov himself is in charge of the war (and cyber war) in East Ukraine.

    IMO the threat re long range missiles is a stunt to imply Russian renewed power ahead of the Russian elections. Putin fears a low turnout (he is guaranteed to win having disqualified his opponent Navalny).

    He fears no retribution from Washington as Donald Trump is a puppet of Putin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    demfad wrote: »
    Putin fears a low turnout (he is guaranteed to win having disqualified his opponent Navalny)
    Navalny disqualified himself by having a criminal conviction for embezzlement.
    What about all the others?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    Navalny disqualified himself by having a criminal conviction for embezzlement.
    What about all the others?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/08/alexei-navalny-russian-opposition-leader-found-guilty-embezzlement

    The trial and retrial were a stitch up. Do you believe the ECHR or the Putin controlled Russian court system?
    In a trial widely seen as a means of silencing him, Navalny was convicted of embezzlement from a state timber company in Kirov in 2013, but he was allowed to run for mayor of Moscow while he appealed against the ruling. The 2013 verdict was sent for a retrial by the Russian supreme court after the European court of human rights (ECHR) found procedural violations in it last year.

    Navalny’s lawyer, Olga Mikhailova, told journalists that Wednesday’s verdict did not answer the ECHR’s criticisms of the original trial. The verdict was based on the same evidence as in 2013 and assigned the same five- and four-year suspended sentences to Navalny and his former business partner Pyotr Ofitserov.

    If you don't want to be found guilty in a Russian court then don't get tried.
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/andrei-loshak/corruption-complicity-careerism-hydra-of-russian-justice
    Once inside the wheels of the Russian legal system, the odds are stacked against you and a guilty verdict is inevitable

    The remaining candidates are puppets to give the impression of a fair election.

    With no creditable opposition candidate the Russian people may boycott the vote as Navalny suggests. Putin can't put up a genuine candidate because he will lose.
    This missile business is tough talk that he knows the US president will not respond to. This gives the false impression of Russian power which he hopes will translate to a quarter respectable turnout.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    demfad wrote: »
    The trial and retrial were a stitch up. Do you believe the ECHR or the Putin controlled Russian court system?
    I don't think the ECHR ever said he was innocent of the embezzlement charges. They objected to the police detaining him during his political campaigning, which he claimed technically he was still allowed to do while waiting for the result of his appeal. In the event, his appeal failed. And that was the end of his campaign.

    What about all the other candidates?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    I don't think the ECHR ever said he was innocent of the embezzlement charges. They objected to the police detaining him during his political campaigning, which he claimed technically he was still allowed to do while waiting for the result of his appeal. In the event, his appeal failed. And that was the end of his campaign.

    What about all the other candidates?

    From my actual post : "The 2013 verdict was sent for a retrial by the Russian supreme court after the European court of human rights (ECHR) found procedural violations in it last year." Are you really claiming that the judicial system in Russia is not corrupt?

    Also from my post: "The remaining candidates are puppets to give the impression of a fair election."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    You said "The trial and retrial were a stitch up".

    Navalny brothers went to the ECHR with that same claim and it was dismissed. All they found were some minor procedural violations, but the ECHR did not dispute the substance of the case, or disagree with the Russian state position that the embezzlement had occurred, and as a result he would be ineligible to run for public office.

    Your sweeping statement that "all other candidates are puppets" is something a muppet might say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    You said "The trial and retrial were a stitch up".

    Navalny brothers went to the ECHR with that same claim and it was dismissed. All they found were some minor procedural violations, but the ECHR did not dispute the substance of the case, or disagree with the Russian state position that the embezzlement had occurred, and as a result he would be ineligible to run for public office.

    Your sweeping statement that "all other candidates are puppets" is something a muppet might say.

    I have quoted several reputable publications which claim that in Russia if you are put on trial (usually in a cage) you are convicted.
    Ergo you cannot conclude that Navalny did anything wrong.
    There are several documented examples where Russian officials have stitched up people for political reasons. The massive discrepencies with his trial resulting in an actual intervention by the ECHR and a retrial indicate that this was the case here also.
    Again if you believe that the Russian justice system is fair and not corrupt please do so: there are any numbers of cases to disavow these points of view.

    Navalny was the only serious challenger to Putin. If anyone in such a position stands trial it happens or does not happen with the say so of Putin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    demfad wrote: »
    Ergo you cannot conclude that Navalny did anything wrong.
    A strange and somewhat biased conclusion; "He was convicted of a crime, therefore he must be innocent."


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    A strange and somewhat biased conclusion; "He was convicted of a crime, therefore he must be innocent."

    Nice try. You claimed he ruled himself out of the presidential election by committing a crime. I claimed you cannot reach that conclusion because the justice system in Russia is corrupt and controlled by the Putin regime.

    Again: do you believe the justice system in Russia is corrupt?

    In Russia you have a regime that murders dissenting journalists and politicians (Boris Nemsov). You have a regime that in the last few days openly tried to murder people in Salisbury while hurting many more.

    Putin is a kleptocrat. He does not have the support of his own people. The nuclear declarations in the OP and the poisoning are in order to heighten the us against them image in Russia.

    I don't know if you are naive or disingeneous. You need to gain a little insight into this man's regime. Yes, western countries have done similar in the past if not on this scale. We need to ensure this does not occur any more. But that should not excuse Putin or his actions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    demfad wrote: »
    You have a regime that in the last few days openly tried to murder people in Salisbury while hurting many more.
    I feel sorry for the daughter and the policeman, but not for the traitor. He was a guy who shopped the names and safety of his comrades to the enemy for money.
    Personally I suspect either his former colleagues were responsible without acting on direct orders from the Kremlin, or else the Kremlin found out that he had recently become active again and decided to eliminate him. If he had become active in some way, he may also have got the daughter involved.

    I'd be more a fan of the Irish justice and electoral system than the Russian one. But unlike you, I don't assume the Russian versions to be non-existent.

    I believe that people in Russia and China have a different view of politics to us. If things are going reasonably well, they are quite happy to keep the same leader permanently. "Leave well enough alone" is the prevailing mentality.

    We on the other hand, have a history of constantly changing from one shower of gob$hites to another, and always complaining about the result afterwards.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the daughter and the policeman, but not for the traitor. He was a guy who shopped the names and safety of his comrades to the enemy for money.
    Personally I suspect either his former colleagues were responsible without acting on direct orders from the Kremlin, or else the Kremlin found out that he had recently become active again and decided to eliminate him. If he had become active in some way, he may also have got the daughter involved.

    'Comrades'? Do you still believe that Russia is a communist state?
    Russia is a kleptocracy: The Russian State, The Russian intelligence services, The Russian mafia, the Russian banking system, The oligarchs, The Russian mafia are de facto all part of an intrenational criminal syndicate. The Russian people have been literally shaken down by their rulers.
    I'd be more a fan of the Irish justice and electoral system than the Russian one. But unlike you, I don't assume the Russian versions to be non-existent.

    That's not what I asked you. I asked you if you considered the Russian justice system 'Just' or not? Is Justice served by their judiciary?
    I believe that people in Russia and China have a different view of politics to us. If things are going reasonably well, they are quite happy to keep the same leader permanently. "Leave well enough alone" is the prevailing mentality.

    If Russia wanted Putin then why was nemsov assasinated? Why was Navalny jailed? Why does something always happen to eliminate Putin's rivals?
    Now Putin's rival is a low turnout in the election to protest him he creates stories about super nukes and stirs international crises by public spectacular murder in the UK.

    Would the Russian people support him if they knew his personal fortune is $200 billion of THEIR MONEY?
    That even his daughters have bank accounts to the value of millions stashed in Latvian accounts. Do you deny that Putin has this fortune?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Is "comrade" not an English word any more?
    The guy was soldier first, then a spy, then a traitor. Betraying your brothers in arms for money is a serious business, not easily forgiven.

    Putin has money and influence. Of course he does.
    Nevertheless he rose to prominence in the Yeltzin era when kleptocrats and oligarchs were privatising the wealth of the former USSR and stashing it away in foreign bank accounts. Disgusted by what he saw, he eventually had enough power to reverse that process.
    Ordinary Russians recognise that, and respect him for it. Ever since then he has been restoring some pride in what's left of the state.

    The UK is home to many of these rich but exiled oligarchs, and they have been using it as a base from which to attack their homeland. Its a tradition that goes back to 1917, and the last days of the Tsar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    Putin has money and influence. Of course he does.
    Nevertheless he rose to prominence in the Yeltzin era when kleptocrats and oligarchs were privatising the wealth of the former USSR and stashing it away in foreign bank accounts. Disgusted by what he saw, he eventually had enough power to reverse that process.
    Ordinary Russians recognise that, and respect him for it. Ever since then he has been restoring some pride in what's left of the state.

    Do you deny that Putin has amassed a wealth of some $200 billion by defrauding his own country and stashing the money away in foreign banks?
    The UK is home to many of these rich but exiled oligarchs, and they have been using it as a base from which to attack their homeland. Its a tradition that goes back to 1917, and the last days of the Tsar.

    The biggest Oligarch in the UK is Roman Abramovich right hand man of Putin.

    BTW: Putin rose to prominence when several apartments in Moscow were blown up by the FSB. The claim was that it was done by Chechen rebels which vindictated Putin's hawkish stance on Chechnya and prompted Putin's rise to power and a bloody war with Chechnya.
    The apartment bombings sparked an investigation when suspsicians arose. E.g a Putin ally in the Duma condemned an attack only to realise the attack had not occurred. Instead FSB explosives were found at the apartment block.
    The investigation was stopped when 4 of teh committee were murdered most infamously journalist Anna Politkovskaya.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,172 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    recedite wrote: »
    I believe that people in Russia and China have a different view of politics to us. If things are going reasonably well, they are quite happy to keep the same leader permanently. "Leave well enough alone" is the prevailing mentality.

    We on the other hand, have a history of constantly changing from one shower of gob$hites to another, and always complaining about the result afterwards.

    If the Russians are so happy with Putin as leader then why does he feel the need to continuously imprison or exile anyone who might have a chance against him in an election?

    Xi Jinping in China has also been steadily removing his political opponents under the guise of anti-corruption operation over the last few years. Surely this would be a waste of time and effort if the people were truely happy with having Putin / Jinping in power for ever.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Some people are only there to stir up trouble and will never do anything constructive. Even in Ireland we have the likes of Boyd Barrett and Paul Murphy, but we just have to tolerate them, while they make a good living off the backs of the ordinary taxpayer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    Some people are only there to stir up trouble and will never do anything constructive. Even in Ireland we have the likes of Boyd Barrett and Paul Murphy, but we just have to tolerate them, while they make a good living off the backs of the ordinary taxpayer.

    You are up in arms about these guys receiving their salaries but you have no problem with Putin stealing $200 billion of his peoples money and squirrelling it away in foreign banks, you have no problem with his oligarchs doing likewise. Also, you must have no problem with Putin's partnership with the mafia e.g the 'boss of bosses' Semion Mogelevich who assists Putin in his criminal money laundering endeavors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,795 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    demfad wrote: »
    You are up in arms about these guys receiving their salaries but you have no problem with Putin stealing $200 billion of his peoples money and squirrelling it away in foreign banks, you have no problem with his oligarchs doing likewise. Also, you must have no problem with Putin's partnership with the mafia e.g the 'boss of bosses' Semion Mogelevich who assists Putin in his criminal money laundering endeavors.

    A non response to your question or line of questioning and a quick question or redirection will be in the offing very shortly.



    Please pause for a moment :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    demfad wrote: »
    Putin stealing $200 billion of his peoples money and squirrelling it away
    Sorry for the delay, I had to work for a while there.
    AFAIK his business interests mainly lie in the shipping and transportation of oil and LPG, which I believe is a legitimate business. Apparently he is quite interested in the opening up of new routes as the arctic becomes less ice bound. All very shrewd. Maybe not exactly "ethical investing" if there is such a thing, but not dishonest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    recedite wrote: »
    Sorry for the delay, I had to work for a while there.
    AFAIK his business interests mainly lie in the shipping and transportation of oil and LPG, which I believe is a legitimate business. Apparently he is quite interested in the opening up of new routes as the arctic becomes less ice bound. All very shrewd. Maybe not exactly "ethical investing" if there is such a thing, but not dishonest.

    'His' money is hidden by other Oligarchs in their name in bank acounts outside Russia. His deal with these Oligarchs after he caged Khordovosky was 50% of profits for impunity and protection by the Russian State apparatus. Most of this money is laundered criminal assets and taxes stolen from the Russian State.

    Does this sound legitimate to you?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    No, it sounds like nonsense. Where is your evidence for all these allegations?


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