Should I appeal my test: weather conditions

Mcjmetroid

Hi guys,

I had just failed the driving test and I'm quite upset about it really. The test occured yesterday in Limerick at 15:45 and the instructor nailed me for progression 11 times. It had started snowing a blizzard about 12 minutes into the test and I was being extra cautious about speeds and visibility wasn't great etc
I wasn't going THAT slow either as it's my 4th time doing the test this was never an issue in the past 3 before.

Due to the severe weather warnings do you think I should appeal the result? All I want is a retest

Edit: also this went up literally while I was doing
The test:http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Driving-Test-Disruptions/

djsim101

Unlucky man, you should appeal it. You have to adapt to to the current driving conditions. Good Luck.

Alanstrainor

I do think it is worth appealing in this case. Obviously it's hard for us to know exactly what happened, but it seems mad to me that the test was conducted in such conditions. I would suspect that subsequent tests were likely cancelled if that was the first of the snow for the day.

Hard luck OP. Terrible week for a test.

Mcjmetroid

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I do think it is worth appealing in this case. Obviously it's hard for us to know exactly what happened, but it seems mad to me that the test was conducted in such conditions. I would suspect that subsequent tests were likely cancelled if that was the first of the snow for the day.

Hard luck OP. Terrible week for a test.

Thanks for the response,
I'm not sure you would know but I'll chance it:
Would it be better to put my case in a complaint on their website? Are these ever addressed or am I wasting my time?

I don't like the word complain working in a public job myself but I also don't want to go through the district court for the appeal process.. seems too much.

Alanstrainor

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

Thanks for the response,
I'm not sure you would know but I'll chance it:
Would it be better to put my case in a complaint on their website? Are these ever addressed or am I wasting my time?

I don't like the word complain working in a public job myself but I also don't want to go through the district court for the appeal process.. seems too much.

I would think that any complaints to the website will be ignored.

The process for complaints is painful. So it's up to you whether you think it is worth the hassle. Your case does seem particularly bad to me, but there's no guarantee that the judge would think the same.

CeilingFly

If it the FOURTH time you have failed the test, then maybe the issue is not with the tester.

There was no blizzard in limerick yesterday afternoon - there may have been a snow shower. A single snow shower will not cause immediate driving hazard and you should have kept up with traffic. Tester obviously thought you did not adapt to the conditions and were over cautious -over cautious drivers are as much a hazard as those that show no caution.

Bring the report to your instructor, tell him/her about the conditions and ask them for advice on the correct way to deal with a snow shower (as opposed to show compacted on the ground)

Wishbone Ash

You can;t appeal the result - you can only appeal to have a another test so it might be just easier to apply for another test.

Mcjmetroid

CeilingFly wrote: »

If it the FOURTH time you have failed the test, then maybe the issue is not with the tester.

There was no blizzard in limerick yesterday afternoon - there may have been a snow shower. A single snow shower will not cause immediate driving hazard and you should have kept up with traffic. Tester obviously thought you did not adapt to the conditions and were over cautious -over cautious drivers are as much a hazard as those that show no caution.

Bring the report to your instructor, tell him/her about the conditions and ask them for advice on the correct way to deal with a snow shower (as opposed to show compacted on the ground)

https://www.facebook.com/LimerickPostNews/videos/10160025890690052/

Can you check Facebook? This was posted yesterday while I was doing the test so..

It didn't last more than 15 - 20 minutes but it was still half the test in my opinion.

Mcjmetroid

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You can;t appeal the result - you can only appeal to have a another test so it might be just easier to apply for another test.

But also another 85 euros. You might be right though there is no other choice really.

iguana

CeilingFly wrote: »

There was no blizzard in limerick yesterday afternoon - there may have been a snow shower. A single snow shower will not cause immediate driving hazard and you should have kept up with traffic. Tester obviously thought you did not adapt to the conditions and were over cautious -over cautious drivers are as much a hazard as those that show no caution.

There was an incredibly heavy snowfall at exactly that time yesterday. A journey that normally takes 20 minutes took double that as visibility was very poor and it wasn't possible to see 30ft into the distance on the N20.

Tenigate

Hi op.
I was in the bus on the M1 yesterday when it was snowing.
Traffic appeared bumper-to-bumper and the bus went into the fast lane to overtake a car.
In front of the car was about 800m of clear road.
In other words, a slow (incompetent) driver caused slow-moving traffic into the overtaking lane.

Now, i wasn't present for your test. But from the sounds of it you were uncomfortable driving in snow (perhaps due to a lack of experience - or a combination of test nerves and poor conditions), drove slower or more hesitantly than you should have, and as such were not considered a competent driver.

There's nothing to appeal.

CeilingFly

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/LimerickPostNews/videos/10160025890690052/

Can you check Facebook? This was posted yesterday while I was doing the test so..

It didn't last more than 15 - 20 minutes but it was still half the test in my opinion.

A heavy snow shower - not a blizzard. You were probably over cautious and that can be dangerous, hence the fail.

Very unlucky - but driving to the conditions means exactly that and too slow if conditions didn't warrant it, is a hazard.

iguana

Tenigate wrote: »

Hi op.
I was in the bus on the M1 yesterday when it was snowing.
Traffic appeared bumper-to-bumper and the bus went into the fast lane to overtake a car.
In front of the car was about 800m of clear road.
In other words, a slow (incompetent) driver caused slow-moving traffic into the overtaking lane.

Now, i wasn't present for your test. But from the sounds of it you were uncomfortable driving in snow (perhaps due to a lack of experience - or a combination of test nerves and poor conditions), drove slower or more hesitantly than you should have, and as such were not considered a competent driver.

There's nothing to appeal.

My dad, a truck driver with over 40 years of experience was driving the car I was in during that snowfall yesterday. You could not see 10m ahead of the windscreen during it. How fast do you think you should be driving when you can't see what's possibly in front of you?

Mcjmetroid

Tenigate wrote: »

Hi op.
I was in the bus on the M1 yesterday when it was snowing.
Traffic appeared bumper-to-bumper and the bus went into the fast lane to overtake a car.
In front of the car was about 800m of clear road.
In other words, a slow (incompetent) driver caused slow-moving traffic into the overtaking lane.

Now, i wasn't present for your test. But from the sounds of it you were uncomfortable driving in snow (perhaps due to a lack of experience - or a combination of test nerves and poor conditions), drove slower or more hesitantly than you should have, and as such were not considered a competent driver.

There's nothing to appeal.

You are expecting a learner driver, a person who is not allowed drive on a motorway, who is not allowed drive on their own is going to be able to handle a snowstorm? Something that only happens about twice a year in this country?

Sorry what? Some of you people seem to think we live in Alaska.

I do understand where you're coming from but the tests WERE cancelled for today. What does that tell you?

King_Joffery

Slightly off topic but can you use a dash cam during the driving exam? Just curious!

Mcjmetroid

Anyway guys I didn't really wish to get into an argument here. I only wished for a general consensus on whether I could potentially appeal the decision. Unfortunately the appealing process is difficult so I'm debating that. I'm not a complainer like I said before I had done the test 4 times and I never wrote a post like this complaining about this tester or that and I've fairly active to this forum in general.

It looks like we're all a little divided on it and that's cool. I'll have to think about this some more. I do think I have a case considering the extreme circumstances but it's all about whether it's worth it or not.

Tenigate

iguana wrote: »

My dad, a truck driver with over 40 years of experience was driving the car I was in during that snowfall yesterday. You could not see 10m ahead of the windscreen during it. How fast do you think you should be driving when you can't see what's possibly in front of you?

I wasn't replying to your post and my comment was on the distance the driver i describe left between himself and the car in front. So progression was a problem (driver should have accelerated to close the distance).

Upon reading your post, yep, you'd need to go fairly slow alright. Still, if you are slow to move off at a junction or traffic light, or go around a corner too slowly, or stop suddenly in advance of a white line, it can cause an accident by being almost unpredictable for the driver behind.

CruelCoin

You should be competent to drive in all weathers, not just ideal ones!

Driving too slowly is as poor as driving too quickly.

CruelCoin

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

Anyway guys I didn't really wish to get into an argument here. I only wished for a general consensus on whether I could potentially appeal the decision. Unfortunately the appealing process is difficult so I'm debating that. I'm not a complainer like I said before I had done the test 4 times and I never wrote a post like this complaining about this tester or that and I've fairly active to this forum in general.

It looks like we're all a little divided on it and that's cool. I'll have to think about this some more. I do think I have a case considering the extreme circumstances but it's all about whether it's worth it or not.

If it was a small margin, like one or two strikes, then maybe, but 11 times for the same thing?

I wouldn't bother, you have nothing to appeal.

Tenigate

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

You are expecting a learner driver, a person who is not allowed drive on a motorway, who is not allowed drive on their own is going to be able to handle a snowstorm? Something that only happens about twice a year in this country?

Absolutely! Because once you pass your test you'll have a full licence that allows you to drive on any road in any conditions. Black ice, snow, motorways, and windy local roads with potholes and animals

Mcjmetroid

Tenigate wrote: »

Absolutely! Because once you pass your test you'll have a full licence that allows you to drive on any road in any conditions. Black ice, snow, motorways, and windy local roads with potholes and animals

And how pray tell do you practice for these weather conditions without gaining experience by yourself? Should I wait for the next snowstorm, Grab a full license driver and practice in those conditions.

Get real man.

CeilingFly

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

And how pray tell do you practice for these weather conditions without gaining experience by yourself? Should I wait for the next snowstorm, Grab a full license driver and practice in those conditions.

Get real man.

Plenty of advice both online and in the various official publications.

I'm 32 years driving, never had any accident and have driven in every condition you can imagine.

Understand you car and its capabilities, understand what different weather conditions can do to driving conditions and you'll be fine.

I just reckon you were over cautious and maybe it suggests you need more practice before next test. And yes, get an experienced driver and have them drive with you in poor conditions and give you pointers. That is reality is the only way. Remember, a person with a learner permit must have an experienced driver with them at all times - from june, if driving alone without full licence the car is taken from you on the spot and towed away. - No exceptions.

Tenigate

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

Get real man.

Look i failed my test more than once. I don't like them any more than you do.

Had you 2 or 3 marks for progression you could feel hard done by. 11 though, ffs! It wouldn't have been safe for you or other road users for you to drive home.

Mcjmetroid

CeilingFly wrote: »

Plenty of advice both online and in the various official publications.

I'm 32 years driving, never had any accident and have driven in every condition you can imagine.

Understand you car and its capabilities, understand what different weather conditions can do to driving conditions and you'll be fine.

I just reckon you were over cautious and maybe it suggests you need more practice before next test. And yes, get an experienced driver and have them drive with you in poor conditions and give you pointers. That is reality is the only way. Remember, a person with a learner permit must have an experienced driver with them at all times - from june, if driving alone without full licence the car is taken from you on the spot and towed away. - No exceptions.

Then why did they cancel tests for today and tomorrow? Bad driving conditions!!
They actually posted up the cancellations for tests as I was doing it. Literally check the website for the announcement.

Sorry but I know you have put the test behind you some time ago and that I assume is the general position people negative against me are in and I do understand where you're coming from. As I said I didn't post anything whiny here before where I did naturally question certain marks as you do.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Maybe I'm just venting and there's nothing that can be done and maybe I'm not the best driver at the moment but it was only a matter of a few minutes where they cancelled the tests from when I did it.

And I think that warrants a review.

bucketybuck

4 times failed the test and now nailed 11 times for the same issue?

I suppose you could look for someone else to blame or some reason it wasn't your own fault, but I honestly think the best thing you could do is take some responsibility and act accordingly.

GarIT

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/LimerickPostNews/videos/10160025890690052/

Can you check Facebook? This was posted yesterday while I was doing the test so..

It didn't last more than 15 - 20 minutes but it was still half the test in my opinion.

Snow, even heavy snow is not a blizzard.

GarIT

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

I do understand where you're coming from but the tests WERE cancelled for today. What does that tell you?

OP failed yesterday. Tests being cancelled today tells me that the weather changed over the past 24 hours.

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

Then why did they cancel tests for today and tomorrow? Bad driving conditions!!

They cancelled tests today when the conditions got bad enough to stop tests. The conditions yesterday were fine for taking a test.

DelaneyO

I can’t for the life of me understand why the tests aren’t recorded on a dash cam front and rear.

Leaving very transcripts are kept for years, the oral exams are recorded, other state exams are all recorded.

Why can’t they do this with driving tests? It seems an incompetent tester can fail you and it’s your word versus his/hers.

Even if you are proven in the right, all you get is a free retest after spending thousands on the district court and a solicitor.

Wishbone Ash

DelaneyO wrote: »

I can’t for the life of me understand why the tests aren’t recorded on a dash cam front and rear.

Leaving very transcripts are kept for years, the oral exams are recorded, other state exams are all recorded.

Why can’t they do this with driving tests?....

It would be very impractical and time consuming trying to fix cameras to each candidate's vehicle prior to the test. It would also require different types of fittings and fixtures for cars, motorcycles, rigid trucks, artic trucks, buses, tractors etc.

Recording oral exams etc. is totally different as the candidate does the exam at a fixed venue and position.

In addition, a front and rear dash cam won't pick up necessary aspects of the candidates behaviours and actions which form much of the test - observation, correct gear, bad habits, feet position, hand position etc.

A dash cam won't always pick up potential hazards which are out of it's range of view such as a hazard from a side direction.

Tenigate

Just have the instructor wear a go Pro strapped to his head

listermint

Three pages and I think we can all agree the op probably needs to seek out a new driving instructor to get to the root of 4 fails.

fritzelly

iguana wrote: »

My dad, a truck driver with over 40 years of experience was driving the car I was in during that snowfall yesterday. You could not see 10m ahead of the windscreen during it. How fast do you think you should be driving when you can't see what's possibly in front of you?

If all you could see was 10m then you probably shouldn't have been driving, even at 30km/h that is less than your stopping distance in snow

As for the OP, gotta agree with everyone else - multiple fails behind you and multiple points in one test says more than just driving carefully (but it could have been infractions for not accelerating quickly enough from turning a corner and other things)

doolox

You get nailed for going at the speed limit which is often too slow in many urban areas. I have worked with many people who have been nailed for this fault but dare you bang into somebody in any circumstances and you will be accused of going too fast......

Most driving testers are officious, nit picking jobsworths who would not survive milliseconds in the real world of commercial realities and obligations of finding, holding down and getting to and from a job.

The failed candidate badly needs to get a new and different driving instructor and possibly do the test in a different centre. Choose a new centre and practice as much as possible in it so that variables like route knowledge, local oddities in the road layout etc can be weeded out.

Because Ireland does not have a native car industry and lives in the political fiction of having an adequate public transport system, when we do not and because there is a toxic anti-car culture among some of our local councillors and TD's the present shambolic system where half of our candidate drivers fail their tests is allowed to continue. People should be screaming from the rooftops for an improvement in the pass rate but most see it as a temporary thing to be got through by shelling out a re test fee to the blood sucking vampires in driver testing.

fritzelly

Rather half fail than 90% pass and still don't know how to drive properly
Driving testers are not out to fail as many as they can and don't fail you on tiny little things

iguana

Tenigate wrote: »

I wasn't replying to your post and my comment was on the distance the driver i describe left between himself and the car in front. So progression was a problem (driver should have accelerated to close the distance).

Yes but I was out in a car during the same snowfall as the OP. The conditions were very, very dangerous for about 10-15 minutes of the OP's test and anyone in a car needed to be driving with extreme caution which meant going very slowly at times.

fritzelly wrote: »

If all you could see was 10m then you probably shouldn't have been driving, even at 30km/h that is less than your stopping distance in snow

Yeah I know. The snow started 20 minutes before I needed to go collect my 5 year old from his forest school. I was with my parents at the time and my dad offered to drive us in his car as he's a significantly more experience driver. We left straight away. At that time the snow wasn't too bad but as we were on the M20 it worsened and by the time we got to the N20 we could see nothing but a white bluriness a short distance from the car. The 20 minute journey took us 40 minutes and I would absolutely not have gone out in it if I had a choice. The snow stopped at 4.30 and by 5pm it was like it never happened, so I can see why people are being dubious about it. But having been out in it, I'm of the opinion that the OP's test should have been postponed because it was not safe driving conditions.

GarIT

iguana wrote: »

Yes but I was out in a car during the same snowfall as the OP. The conditions were very, very dangerous for about 10-15 minutes of the OP's test and anyone in a car needed to be driving with extreme caution which meant going very slowly at times.



Yeah I know. The snow started 20 minutes before I needed to go collect my 5 year old from his forest school. I was with my parents at the time and my dad offered to drive us in his car as he's a significantly more experience driver. We left straight away. At that time the snow wasn't too bad but as we were on the M20 it worsened and by the time we got to the N20 we could see nothing but a white bluriness a short distance from the car. The 20 minute journey took us 40 minutes and I would absolutely not have gone out in it if I had a choice. The snow stopped at 4.30 and by 5pm it was like it never happened, so I can see why people are being dubious about it. But having been out in it, I'm of the opinion that the OP's test should have been postponed because it was not safe driving conditions.

If the appointed tester felt it was safe to proceed with the test that's all that matters. They were in the situation and they are qualified to carry out driving tests and judge road conditions appropriately.

Sleeper12

We all need to be able to drive in all weather conditions. I can't see you winning an appeal. A full licence is for all weather conditions.

You got unlucky. Don't let it get you down. Fingers crossed you get it next time

Wishbone Ash

doolox wrote: »

... because there is a toxic anti-car culture among some of our local councillors and TD's ....

WTF? I couldn't disagree more.

The big problem in this country is that our public representatives almost totally pro private car with lip service being paid to alternative modes of transport. Look at the billions that have been spent on motorway construction instead of spending it on public transport.

If our politicians really were anti-car, all single occupied private vehicles would be banned from congested routes at peak times, there would be a city centre congestion charge, and motor tax would be added to fuel meaning that those who drive more, pay more of their share, cyclists would have priority etc. .....I could go on and on.......

Wishbone Ash

Sleeper12 wrote: »

... A full licence is for all weather conditions...

Indeed, but they cancel tests on frosty mornings.

Mcjmetroid

GarIT wrote: »

If the appointed tester felt it was safe to proceed with the test that's all that matters. They were in the situation and they are qualified to carry out driving tests and judge road conditions appropriately.

I'm curious ...what potential situation do you deem an appeal worthy in?

Mcjmetroid

bucketybuck wrote: »

4 times failed the test and now nailed 11 times for the same issue?

I suppose you could look for someone else to blame or some reason it wasn't your own fault, but I honestly think the best thing you could do is take some responsibility and act accordingly.

An issue that wasn't there the other 4 times?I'm not making this up, I've been driving the year and a half prepping for this and this was a new examiner and new problems that weren't there beforehand. Please understand for those that are the sympathetic 30 years of driving that can't relate type that it is 85 euros per test for someone's opinion which I think I have a case for.

It CAN be wrong like everyone's opinions.

fritzelly

You don't need 18 months to prep for a driving test - more to this than meets the eye

Mcjmetroid

GarIT wrote: »

Snow, even heavy snow is not a blizzard.

Ok...…..........what now?

Mcjmetroid

fritzelly wrote: »

You don't need 18 months to prep for a driving test - more to this than meets the eye

Not leaving anything out..besides progression that were literally 2 other grade 2 faults. That was it. No grade 3 and no grade 1 faults.

Needles73

"..and motor tax would be added to fuel meaning that those who drive more, pay more of their share......"
You do know how the tax rates in fuel is over 50% already so those who drive more already pay substantially more

OP don't worry about test too much. Rebook and crack on with giving it another go. Don't waste energy in an appeal which is unlikely to change outcome.

bucketybuck

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

An issue that wasn't there the other 4 times?I'm not making this up, I've been driving the year and a half prepping for this and this was a new examiner and new problems that weren't there beforehand. Please understand for those that are the sympathetic 30 years of driving that can't relate type that it is 85 euros per test for someone's opinion which I think I have a case for.

It CAN be wrong like everyone's opinions.

The other 4 times? Is this actually your 5th time failing?

Really though, you are not going to win with the argument that there were "new problems that weren't there before", I for one would like drivers to be able to cope with new problems that might occur on the road.

Honestly, I just don't believe that the examiner made you continue a test in unfair or undriveable conditions. Occams razor would say it is far more likely that he/she simply felt that the conditions were acceptable but that you were unable to cope or adapt. When an examiner cites you 11 times he clearly feels you aren't dealing acceptably with the road conditions, and if you had already failed the test 4 times times logic would say he is probably right. Thats my opinion based on what you have written.

Wishbone Ash

Needles73 wrote: »

...You do know how the tax rates in fuel is over 50% already so those who drive more already pay substantially more...

You're being subsidised by those who pay the same annual motor tax but use their vehicles much less.

My car is parked up 6 days a week yet I pay the same motor tax as an owner of an equivalent car which is driven daily.

Needles73

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You're being subsidised by those who pay the same annual motor tax but use their vehicles much less.

My car is parked up 6 days a week yet I pay the same motor tax as an owner of an equivalent car which is driven daily.

Thats a flawed logic. I could equally say you are being subsidised by the tax from my petrol. I'm already paying more tax when I use my car. Car users are paying more to the state coffers than anyone else. In addition "road" tax doesn't actually go on the roads.

GarIT

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

I'm curious ...what potential situation do you deem an appeal worthy in?

Not many I can think of, maybe if you knew the tester personally and they had something against you.

Anything related to conditions on the day or driving faults is a he said she said situation and the tester will always win on that one.

GarIT

Mcjmetroid wrote: »

Ok...…..........what now?

You said there was a blizzard. A blizzard is a snowstorm with 56km/h winds lasting for at least 3 hours. There weren't winds of those speeds recorded nor was there enough snow for it to be considered a snowstorm.

GarIT

Needles73 wrote: »

You do know how the tax rates in fuel is over 50% already so those who drive more already pay substantially more

Is this really the case? My last receipt from Topaz says I spent €57.70 on petrol around €11 of which was tax, that could be just VAT though.