ERSI recommend 22% increase in duty on diesel

Petyr Baelish

From here:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0222/942595-esri_diesel_duty/

So the ERSI in their wisdom have published a report recommending a huge hike in the price of diesel under the guise of environmental concerns. I say guise because they point out that it would raise over €520 million in additional taxes for the government, I think the real agenda is obvious here.

Even by publishing this report the ERSI will have damaged the value of used diesel cars on the road today. All of the new cars ordered for 2018 that have diesel engines could immediately lose a large percentage of their value now. Used car dealers with lots full of diesels must have their heads in their hands when they see this kind of thing being published.

What do the ERSI think that the motorist who is already burdened with high running costs, tax and insurance think this will do to the owners of diesel cars?

It would seem to me that if they are genuinely concerned about the environmental impact of diesel they would not be taking a money grab approach like this that will hurt hundreds of thousands of motorists.

Would it not be more sensible to increase the road tax and VRT on newly registered diesels to discourage their purchase going forward but leave the fuel cost as it is to protect existing owners and car dealers?

Alkers

Petyr Baelish wrote:

Would it not be more sensible to increase the road tax and VRT on newly registered diesels to discourage their purchase going forward but leave the fuel cost as it is to protect existing owners and car dealers?

Because they want these people to sell their diesel cars and buy more environmentally friendly versions

ednwireland

or reduce duty on petrol maybe to balance out the figures or reduce vrt on hybrid (i assume EV already at reduced vrt rate not that i can afford a new car )
but no as with everything with irish goveremnts its lets see if we can put the price up of eveything

Petyr Baelish

Simona1986 wrote: »

Because they want these people to sell their diesel cars and buy more environmentally friendly versions

If they increase the VRT and tax on new cars diesels will phase out. Who do you think people will be selling their used diesels to anyway? They will just go to other motorists or there will be massive losses for people who have financed their cars. I don't buy the environmental argument anyway, I still think the main purpose here is a money grab while there are still loads of diesels on the road.

antodeco

I'm amazed by the figures they stated that increasing prices will reduce our harmful affects. I don't think that's how it works. Cost more does not equal less pollution. Potentially, more cost will eventually mean lower diesels and thus, lower emissions, but to say a price increase will have X decrease in emissions is poopycock

ednwireland

Petyr Baelish wrote: »

If they increase the VRT and tax on new cars diesels will phase out. Who do you think people will be selling their used diesels to anyway? They will just go to other motorists or there will be massive losses for people who have financed their cars. I don't buy the environmental argument anyway, I still think the main purpose here is a money grab while there are still loads of diesels on the road.

absolutely a money grab probably to balance loss of revenue with increasing EV sales

Caliden

Encourage everyone to buy diesel cars due to lower motor tax.
Increase duty on diesel since most people now own a diesel car.
Profit.

Petyr Baelish

Caliden wrote: »

Encourage everyone to buy diesel cars due to lower motor tax.
Increase duty on diesel since most people now own a diesel car.
Profit.

Yes. There are many who had the value of their petrol cars wiped out when the tax rates were last adjusted so they switched to diesel. Now they will be hit again.

Tuco88

They should just ban the sale of new diesels and let what fleet is there die off. Because of the Diesel gate/Green party the average joe gets the wrap.

All they want now is a big money race for hybrids.

SBPhoto

This is never going to happen, for the Government to increase duty on diesel by 22% would be political suicide not considering what it would add to the cost of living index. Still about 60% of the voters out there driving diesels, I drive a diesel because its much more economical for me as a sole trader, I can claim the VAT back and better MPG and i do nearly 30k a year. Now as i am semi retired i will look strongly look at a hybrid or EV on my next purchase.

pah

I've been considering a 4.8l V8 7 series.

Decision made then.

kona

**** diesel, a absolute scam of a tax system to support it.

Petyr Baelish

SBPhoto wrote: »

This is never going to happen, for the Government to increase duty on diesel by 22% would be political suicide not considering what it would add to the cost of living index. Still about 60% of the voters out there driving diesels, I drive a diesel because its much more economical for me as a sole trader, I can claim the VAT back and better MPG and i do nearly 30k a year. Now as i am semi retired i will look strongly look at a hybrid or EV on my next purchase.

I agree that it is unlikely to happen to the full extent of what the ERSI recommend but I do believe it is softening us up for something, maybe 5%.

Whatever happens, I believe it is reckless to publish a report like that when you think of the damage it could do to resale values. How might this affect people who bought on PCP for example?

bazz26

ERSI recommending increase in tax revenue to the Government, there's a shocker.

SBPhoto

kona wrote: »

**** diesel, a absolute scam of a tax system to support it.

Petrol isn't exactly clean fuel either,

Tuco88

SBPhoto wrote: »

Petrol isn't exactly clean fuel either,

This, petrol is just as worse it was the original problem.

Shefwedfan

It is about time the government done something. It would be better if they could target the city users but I guess they can't do that.

The amount of cars in Dublin every morning spewing out fumes from diesel engines and people are doing a 20-60km round trip to work. It is a joke.

I see at least the manufacturers are moving away from petrol, toyota will offer a lot better deal for a hybrid.

Anyone who lives and works in Dublin and drives a diesel car should automatically get a 50% increase on tax

P.S that comes from a person who has a diesel Galaxy

Lord Nikon

Tuco88 wrote: »

They should just ban the sale of new diesels and let what fleet is there die off.

All well and good, but it would take at least 15 years to get most of the diesels off the road, and have them replaced with petrols/EVs, and that's IF they started today. Today, new diesels are still the most sold motor engine, and look at any used car website, majority are all diesels.

I currently drive an 11 year old diesel, and if I changed it in 2/3 years, it would probably be for another diesel.... Unless, I can get the same MPG in a petrol AND the price of petrol comes down to diesel prices, AND the tax rates are the same.

Shefwedfan

Quickest and best way to resolve. Congestion charge in major town/cities

Anyone who drives a diesel into large town/city gets to pay 20 euro for the pleasure of doing it.

I would not charge commercial vehicles/buses/white van man types who require for work

Shefwedfan

Lord Nikon wrote: »

All well and good, but it would take at least 15 years to get most of the diesels off the road, and have them replaced with petrols/EVs, and that's IF they started today. Today, new diesels are still the most sold motor engine, and look at any used car website, majority are all diesels.

I currently drive an 11 year old diesel, and if I changed it in 2/3 years, it would probably be for another diesel.... Unless, I can get the same MPG in a petrol AND the price of petrol comes down to diesel prices, AND the tax rates are the same.

Out of interest what mileage do you do and what is your daily commute?

kona

SBPhoto wrote: »

Petrol isn't exactly clean fuel either,

Better for my health. Not so good for the enviroment. I know what i prefer

noodler

Petyr Baelish wrote: »

From here:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0222/942595-esri_diesel_duty/

So the ERSI in their wisdom have published a report recommending a huge hike in the price of diesel under the guise of environmental concerns. I say guise because they point out that it would raise over €520 million in additional taxes for the government, I think the real agenda is obvious here.

Even by publishing this report the ERSI will have damaged the value of used diesel cars on the road today. All of the new cars ordered for 2018 that have diesel engines could immediately lose a large percentage of their value now. Used car dealers with lots full of diesels must have their heads in their hands when they see this kind of thing being published.

What do the ERSI think that the motorist who is already burdened with high running costs, tax and insurance think this will do to the owners of diesel cars?

It would seem to me that if they are genuinely concerned about the environmental impact of diesel they would not be taking a money grab approach like this that will hurt hundreds of thousands of motorists.

Would it not be more sensible to increase the road tax and VRT on newly registered diesels to discourage their purchase going forward but leave the fuel cost as it is to protect existing owners and car dealers?

Is the money raised not just balancing out the money lost by reduced diesel purchases?

dudara

I have a diesel currently and I'm thinking about selling within the next year, with the very specific intention of getting out before the bottom crashes out of the used diesel market. I want to sell my car for as much as I can, and things like this don't help, even though I do think it's inevitable.

I do a 20km commute by bike into town and back out along narrow & congested roads. I can feel my throat and lungs stinging from the smog depending on the weather. Cyclists can breathe up to 70 litres of air per minute, and when you're cycling past cars at a standstill with no wind you can smell and taste the emissions, with diesel being a far worse culprit than petrol.

The ESRI isn't a government thinktank, though it does try to be a 'reasonable' (or perhaps realistic) policymaker. There's plenty of evidence out there on the elasticity of drivers with regard to fuel price so while I haven't (and won't!) look at the methodology of the ESRI report, I would suspect that its relatively well founded.

The argument that a previous government introducing a policy a decade ago somehow invalidates an independent policy research agency from proposing a new policy is just ludicrous.

Lord Nikon

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Out of interest what mileage do you do and what is your daily commute?

Return trip to work daily 70 miles(112 kilometers), 18200 miles a year(29000 kilometers a year), not including social activities on the weekend.

3 tolls daily(€6.90 daily)

elperello

Gap of 12 cent between petrol and diesel.

Put 2 cent on diesel and reduce petrol by 2 cent this year.

Repeat this for 2 more years and they will be equal with no great shock to the system and probably revenue neutral.

Sabre Man

The writing has been on the diesel wall for some time. This is the same writing just in a larger font.

kona

dudara wrote: »

I have a diesel currently and I'm thinking about selling within the next year, with the very specific intention of getting out before the bottom crashes out of the used diesel market. I want to sell my car for as much as I can, and things like this don't help, even though I do think it's inevitable.

Wait until the uk decides to get rid of diesels and they all flood in here.
They are already flooding the place with ex fleet cars.

Its a pity the ev market isnt great yet because id have serious concerns about buying anything new with any sort of i.c.e

Skylinehead

There's absolutely no fair reason why diesel should be taxed cheaper for the public. They'll never bring petrol tax down unfortunately, but they should be equal.

CJhaughey

Skylinehead wrote: »

There's absolutely no fair reason why diesel should be taxed cheaper for the public. They'll never bring petrol tax down unfortunately, but they should be equal.

I can see lots of people complaining that goods have suddenly got way more expensive when hauliers that carry their good have to raise their prices to compensate for the diesel price increase.
Even the EV cars are carried by Diesel engined powered transporters and diesel ships to here.
Once everyone is driving or is a passenger in an autonomous EV then what price will electricity be? will Ireland even have enough generating capacity to accomodate all the extra demand?

Idbatterim

What do the ERSI think that the motorist who is already burdened with high running costs, tax and insurance think this will do to the owners of diesel cars?

It would seem to me that if they are genuinely concerned about the environmental impact of diesel they would not be taking a money grab approach like this that will hurt hundreds of thousands of motorists.

Would it not be more sensible to increase the road tax and VRT on newly registered diesels to discourage their purchase going forward but leave the fuel cost as it is to protect existing owners and car dealers?

what high motor tax on diesel, the motor tax is nearly free now. Secondly, I couldnt care less for idiots wanting to damage public health massively to save a few euro a week, then they think nothing of pissing E6 a pint up against the wall. Like you say, new diesels should have motor tax rates of E500 etc minimum, potentially higher, so that only people that actually need diesel, buy one. I cant see the government changing the goal posts here regarding price of diesel fuel, as they are spineless, but new diesel should have higher rate of VRT and motor tax...

and as soon as electric becomes actually mass market feasible, new diesel sales should be banned!

bazz26

Idbatterim wrote: »

what high motor tax on diesel, the motor tax is nearly free now. Secondly, I couldnt care less for idiots wanting to damage public health massively to save a few euro a week, then they think nothing of pissing E6 a pint up against the wall. Like you say, new diesels should have motor tax rates of E500 etc minimum, potentially higher, so that only people that actually need diesel, buy one. I cant see the government changing the goal posts here regarding price of diesel fuel, as they are spineless, but new diesel should have higher rate of VRT and motor tax...

and as soon as electric becomes actually mass market feasible, new diesel sales should be banned!

And petrol cars won't be far behind that day either, be careful what you wish for.

Skylinehead

CJhaughey wrote: »

I can see lots of people complaining that goods have suddenly got way more expensive when hauliers that carry their good have to raise their prices to compensate for the diesel price increase.
Even the EV cars are carried by Diesel engined powered transporters and diesel ships to here.
Once everyone is driving or is a passenger in an autonomous EV then what price will electricity be? will Ireland even have enough generating capacity to accomodate all the extra demand?

I said "for the public" for a reason! Commercial use is a different use case.

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

And petrol cars won't be far behind that day either, be careful what you wish for.

I dunno, wishing for a future where my (potential) children don't live in a dystopian nightmare isn't that weird a thing to wish for.

Reducing Co2 emissions is a start, and making the alternative between EV/Hybrid and Diesel more favourable to EV/Hybrid is a small but important aspect of that.

Just because we like cars or are 'petrolheads' doesn't mean we have to be ignorant luddites.

bazz26

Lets get real here. Ireland is a small country. Our pollution is minuscule compared to the likes of the US, India, China, who continue to do more damage to our planet than this small nation. But its very trendy and cool these days for us to be seen to be doing our bit or follow the crowd who do. Same people will be in uproar if the cost of commercial movement was increased on their cost of living.

These ESRI recommendations are nothing but new ways of generating revenue and if diesels do go the way of the dodo you can be sure they will still get their pound of flesh anyway whether their vehicle is propelled by gasoline or electricity and bottom line is that is what it's all about.

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

Lets get real here. Ireland is a small country. Our pollution is minuscule compared to the likes of the US, India, China, who continue to do more damage to our planet than this small nation. But its very trendy and cool these days for us to be seen to be doing our bit or follow the crowd who do. Same people will be in uproar if the cost of commercial movement was increased on their cost of living.

These ESRI recommendations are nothing but new ways of generating revenue and if diesels do go the way of the dodo you can be sure they will still get their pound of flesh anyway whether their vehicle is propelled by gasoline or electricity and bottom line is that is what it's all about.

When did "these days" start?

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

Lets get real here. Ireland is a small country. Our pollution is minuscule compared to the likes of the US, India, China, who continue to do more damage to our planet than this small nation. But its very trendy and cool these days for us to be seen to be doing our bit or follow the crowd who do. Same people will be in uproar if the cost of commercial movement was increased on their cost of living.

Ah, the common fallacy of "well, a small subset making a change doesn't make much of an absolute change therefore no-one should ever change".

These ESRI recommendations are nothing but new ways of generating revenue and if diesels do go the way of the dodo you can be sure they will still get their pound of flesh anyway whether their vehicle is propelled by gasoline or electricity and bottom line is that is what it's all about.

The ESRI aren't part of the government. Why are you ranting on about this topic if you don't even know that much?

Perhaps you can 'get real here' by doing a bit more reflecting on the topic before posting?

bazz26

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, the common fallacy of "well, a small subset making a change doesn't make much of an absolute change therefore no-one should ever change".

Keep the dream going if you want, I don't share it. Imo until the big players change then the world won't change.

Deleted User wrote: »

The ESRI aren't part of the government. Why are you ranting on about this topic if you don't even know that much?

Perhaps you can 'get real here' by doing a bit more reflecting on the topic before posting?

I never said the ESRI were part of the government so don't be throwing your toys out of your pram or start getting snotty. This isn't the EV forum.

Idbatterim

bazz in the scheme of things, of course our pollution is nothing. But there are thousands of deaths in europe every year due to air pollution, the quicker diesels in particular are phased out, the quicker the innovation will become with battery etc...

elperello

We have problems with the environmental impact of ICE's but we knew that for some time.
Sudden knee jerk reactions are not what is needed now or we could end up with another false dawn like 2008.
We also don't need different groups of motorists to start fighting among themselves.

People make decisions in good faith based on Government policy. What the Government should do is make a 10 year policy decision to implement steady incremental change.

Idbatterim

they should tax diesels, so that only people who actually do large mileage buy them, not short hop motoring, ruining air quality in towns and cities. As soon as electric is mass market viable, they should be banned.

grogi

Simona1986 wrote: »

Because they want these people to sell their diesel cars and buy more environmentally friendly versions

But those cars will not evaporate. They will remain on the roads for next ten or more years.

And limiting sales of new diesels can be done better.

drunkmonkey

Allow Vat to be reclaimable on Petrol if you want to get business users back to petrol. Sort out the tax bands on cars, tax everyone €450 regardless of what they drive. Sort out the joke that is public transport outside of Dublin. Up the NCT to €150 but make sure that includes 3rd party insurance on all cars tested.

Forget about pushing people to EV's the technology isn't there yet and the infrastructure to support it is even further away on a mass scale. The only thing there good for is loosing money quickly.

Lantus

Petyr Baelish wrote:

What do the ERSI think that the motorist who is already burdened with high running costs, tax and insurance think this will do to the owners of diesel cars?

Well the ersi is likley looking at the phenomenal increase in new car sales over the last 5 or 6 years and thinks that people can afford a small depreciation like this.

rabbitinlights

You can all blame me - I had a petrol car for 8+ years and only bought diesel last year, typical.

diomed

Idbatterim wrote: »

and as soon as electric becomes actually mass market feasible, new diesel sales should be banned!

Is this where all motorists are to be herded next?
Then it will reported that there are problems with recycling all the old batteries and electric cars will get a bad rap, and an increase in tax.

diomed

Idbatterim wrote: »

they should tax diesels, so that only people who actually do large mileage buy them, not short hop motoring, ruining air quality in towns and cities. As soon as electric is mass market viable, they should be banned.

But I drive in Dublin, and about once a month I go to Tipperary and Wexford.
Electric cars are useless for this mix of motoring.

diomed

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Forget about pushing people to EV's the technology isn't there yet and the infrastructure to support it is even further away on a mass scale.

Yes. It is a non-existent "solution", but trendy.
Has anyone seen an electric car with a towbar? I haven't.

Shefwedfan

diomed wrote: »

But I drive in Dublin, and about once a month I go to Tipperary and Wexford.
Electric cars are useless for this mix of motoring.

Oh please please explain why not?? this will be good

secman

The same shower who predicted a soft landing...they sure got that so wrong, also before the crash they grossly under estimated the growth rates... hard to take them serious.

diomed

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Oh please please explain why not?? this will be good

If you had some manners I would reply.