Religion being downgraded as per circular 13/2018

iguana

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

As a parent I talked to my kids religion teacher about what exactly they were doing. I explained that as a typical "Irish Catholic" that doesn't go to mass, I was wondering about the point of the class.

She explained that they don't teach prayers, Catholic faith as doctrine, instead the kids were wedding taught about different religions, the history of religion and the effects of religion.

I got the impression that it wasn't exactly the syllabus that was spotted to be filled, but I was impressed and thought that was very valuable. To be taught to understand how and why billions of people actually follow religion is an important facet of religion.

That's not true. The course is faith formation in the Catholic religion with a portion of the course being about other religions, written by a Catholic from a Catholic perspective and simplified to the point of being regularly incorrect. There was a study commissioned a couple of years back by the Muslim community into the ETB religion course and the conclusion blew apart any claim that it's a course about religion. It has always been a catholic indoctrination class and it was always meant to be an indoctrination class. It was only ever claimed to be about religion to prevent parents from opting their kids out.

I'm sorry for the OP because feeling like your job is in jeopardy is awful. But if your job relies on people's rights being trampled on then objectively this is a much better situation. That said, I think plenty of kids will still choose religion, in the same way that I chose art over physics when I picked my LC subjects even though I enjoyed physics and was ambivalent about art. Though in the long term, if diversifying into gaining qualifications to teach another subject is possible, it mightn't be the worst idea to do so. The same advice would probably extend to religion teachers in Catholic patron body schools too because I wouldn't rule out this being extended at some point over the next decade or so.

The_Valeyard

iguana wrote: »

That's not true. The course is faith formation in the Catholic religion with a portion of the course being about other religions, written by a Catholic from a Catholic perspective and simplified to the point of being regularly incorrect. There was a study commissioned a couple of years back by the Muslim community into the ETB religion course and the conclusion blew apart any claim that it's a course about religion. It has always been a catholic indoctrination class and it was always meant to be an indoctrination class. It was only ever claimed to be about religion to prevent parents from opting their kids out.

I'm sorry for the OP because feeling like your job is in jeopardy is awful. But if your job relies on people's rights being trampled on then objectively this is a much better situation. That said, I think plenty of kids will still choose religion, in the same way that I chose art over physics when I picked my LC subjects even though I enjoyed physics and was ambivalent about art. Though in the long term, if diversifying into gaining qualifications to teach another subject is possible, it mightn't be the worst idea to do so. The same advice would probably extend to religion teachers in Catholic patron body schools too because I wouldn't rule out this being extended at some point over the next decade or so.

After talking to RE teachers, this post above is absolute horse manure.

No rights are being trampled on. The RE JC course (new course coming 2019) is and has been a humanities course focusing on all major Faiths, rituals, cultures, origins and traditions. Also woth a focus on ethics and project work.


Edit: I do feel sorry for my RE colleagues faced with this issue and the circular was quite incorrect about the course itself.
Secondly from a management perspective, it is unworkable. They have no ability to hire extra teachers with zero extra resources to fund alternatives. Zero chance of any extra maths class or science as those teachers would already by timetabled. That small number who do opt out will probably end up with another RE teacher doing an ethics course taken from the RE course, of a study of Latin, classics etc. Not an extra class of a mainstream subject.

evolving_doors

Dunno why Latin keeps coming up, but it's handy for the sciences and medicine due to etymology and classifications etc.

What schools will do?... timetable religion teachers at the same time. Opt ins do religion, opt outs do some type of moral/ethics/philosophy/mindfulness subject. Teachers decide between them which they'd like.

There is no-way any school will/should allow the opt-outs to get extra maths, extra study, do homework (basically gain an advantage over opt-ins). It has to be a proper taught course with a mode of assessment and some type of curriculum. Although in my day we played cards and listened to music during one year of religion, the proviso was that any song we wanted we had to talk about it's meaning to us in our lives. That'd be called a mindfulness course now.

RealJohn

evolving_doors wrote: »

There is no-way any school will/should allow the opt-outs to get extra maths, extra study, do homework (basically gain an advantage over opt-ins). It has to be a proper taught course with a mode of assessment and some type of curriculum.

Agree with this 100%. If those who opt out are given extra classes in exam subjects, it would be tantamount to penalising religious students (since few would choose to study religion as a non-exam subject rather than get an extra maths class or a study class or similar, unless they were religious and their religion was important to them). In fact, it could possibly become an issue of discrimination since the religious students would be put at a disadvantage because of their religion.

fritzelly

RealJohn wrote: »

Agree with this 100%. If those who opt out are given extra classes in exam subjects, it would be tantamount to penalising religious students (since few would choose to study religion as a non-exam subject rather than get an extra maths class or a study class or similar, unless they were religious and their religion was important to them). In fact, it could possibly become an issue of discrimination since the religious students would be put at a disadvantage because of their religion.

Some double standards there - it's ok for them to be subjected to RE regardless if they have opted out as it is now, but now they do not have to be subjected to it they still have to be victimised by controlling what they can do when there is a scheduled RE lesson

evolving_doors

fritzelly wrote: »

Some double standards there - it's ok for them to be subjected to RE regardless if they have opted out as it is now, but now they do not have to be subjected to it they still have to be victimised by controlling what they can do when there is a scheduled RE lesson

So what would you suggest they do when they opt out?

Pintman Paddy Losty

The reason we have so many scrotebag delinquents in schools these days is because religion is being put on the back burner. I was given a solide education by the jesuits and they set my compass straight. This is another sad slide towards hedonism.

fritzelly

evolving_doors wrote: »

So what would you suggest they do when they opt out?

What does it matter what they do? Go outside, check facebook, call home.
Til now you were still subjected to it even if you did not agree with it being taught, now they have an option you still want to corale them as some sort of dissident movement.
Religion should be delegated to the curriculum of history - no one needs multiple lessons about it.
If you are that devoted a follower there are plenty of other avenues to get your education from

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The reason we have so many scrotebag delinquents in schools these days is because religion is being put on the back burner. I was given a solide education by the jesuits and they set my compass straight. This is another sad slide towards hedonism.

And yet some would say it was that very religious teaching that screwed up their life but won't go there

fritzelly

MOD EDIT: Deleted quoted post as orig post has been deleted

And with that we see quite clearly where you stand. Pity those ideals are only a very relatively recent thing

But the troll alert is sounding
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106126160

tea and coffee

MOD EDIT: DELETED QUOTED POST
Not sure if you're being serious. But given your penchant for prostitutes and cheating on your spouse (which I'm not sure is serious thread either), this is a weird juxtaposition of morals

Postgrad10

So the RTAI has issued a letter to Bruton. Not that he'll pass any remarks.


http://www.rtai.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/RTAI-Letter-to-Minister-Bruton.pdf

evolving_doors

fritzelly wrote: »

What does it matter what they do? Go outside, check facebook, call home.

You don't work for the NCCA by any chance :pac:

Seriously though, if you're a principal designing next year's timetable you have to have some semblance of a subject name to slot in. And give a teacher some hint as to what they'll be teaching.

fritzelly wrote: »

Til now you were still subjected to it even if you did not agree with it being taught, now they have an option you still want to corale them as some sort of dissident movement.
Religion should be delegated to the curriculum of history - no one needs multiple lessons about it.
If you are that devoted a follower there are plenty of other avenues to get your education from

And yet some would say it was that very religious teaching that screwed up their life but won't go there

I think the history program is fairly full at the moment too.

Dionysis

Effects wrote: »

Religion has no place in schools. Maybe retrain if you are worried about losing your job.

Why has religion no place in schools, is it not a subject that practically all of the world is engaged in, values highly and uses to differentiate between each other. Why is philosophy ok, but religion, no?

RealJohn

fritzelly wrote: »

Til now you were still subjected to it even if you did not agree with it being taught,

The same applies to CSPE, history, geography, Irish, ...
What’s so different about religion, aside from you (apparently) having a personal gripe about it?

Wanderer78

Dionysis wrote:

Why has religion no place in schools, is it not a subject that practically all of the world is engaged in, values highly and uses to differentiate between each other. Why is philosophy ok, but religion, no?

The lashing out of religion in our educational system is understandable due to our past, but since the era of the dominance of the Catholic church in our society is coming to an end, our social institutions should also reflect this change, including our educational system. Our society is moving on from the Catholic church, maybe it would be better if we had more generalised belief classes instead, whereby most of the predominant beliefs are discussed? This may give kids a better understanding of our world, so they to can try understand people of other faiths better, maybe encouraging them to be more accepting of others etc. Our relationship with the Catholic church has been rather unhealthy for us in many ways, it has been extremely damaging, particularly via our educational system, of course there has been many positives to, but society is moving on.

Dunne_bkill

Has there been any update in regards to this? What are the alternative subjects that schools may offer this coming year? Also, can religion teachers teach these alternative subjects? (Should they be Ethics or something similar)

Surely schools can't offload students into extra exam subject classes.

dory

I know educate together schools have ethics classes. We lost periods from most subjects with the new JC and bringing in more Wellness hours. So if Religion were to go in our school (it won't) the hours would just go back to those subjects.