Urea in frosty conditions

triggerharvey

Well lads would these frosts we are promised have an effect on Urea?

alps

triggerharvey wrote: »

Well lads would these frosts we are promised have an effect on Urea?

I'm going to throw in a question on CAN also...I have a preference for CAN in cold, drier weather and love Urea in warm moist conditions...but confused as he'll to be honest...

freedominacup

alps wrote: »

I'm going to throw in a question on CAN also...I have a preference for CAN in cold, drier weather and love Urea in warm moist conditions...but confused as he'll to be honest...

Fwiw I'm going with 30 units urea tomorrow. That weather event seems to be disappearing over the horizon for my area at this stage. Even if it doesn't I don't see much danger in it for fert spread 5 days before it hits.

einn32

freedominacup wrote: »

Fwiw I'm going with 30 units urea tomorrow. That weather event seems to be disappearing over the horizon for my area at this stage. Even if it doesn't I don't see much danger in it for fert spread 5 days before it hits.

Urea started going out last week but we abandoned it. Back at it this evening. Will finish tomorrow. Wettest ground will need more time but drying looks good. Powerful day today.

Reggie.

einn32 wrote: »

Urea started going out last week but we abandoned it. Back at it this evening. Will finish tomorrow. Wettest ground will need more time but drying looks good. Powerful day today.

Could do with more like it

Keepgrowing

freedominacup wrote: »

Fwiw I'm going with 30 units urea tomorrow. That weather event seems to be disappearing over the horizon for my area at this stage. Even if it doesn't I don't see much danger in it for fert spread 5 days before it hits.

Going Thursday morning here

Jack C

Staying in the bag here.
Cant see getting much return with temperatures forecast so low into next week.

Keepgrowing

Jack C wrote: »

Staying in the bag here.
Cant see getting much return with temperatures forecast so low into next week.

Takes 10 days to work, so will get it done before the freeze??
We have 18's to spread, won't go near that

George Sunsnow

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Takes 10 days to work, so will get it done before the freeze??
We have 18's to spread, won't go near that

Urea is very sturdy in frost unlike most other fertilisers
I’m waiting though because temperatures next week will be low single figures if not zero at times
But getting urea out is one more job done is another way of looking at it
It won’t rot,it will work eventually when the cold spell is over

Tomaz Schafenaker on BBC ones weather tonight said once they set in the east winds could be with us well into March
He showed a graph of how cold they were and it wasn’t pretty

Reggie.

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Takes 10 days to work, so will get it done before the freeze??
We have 18's to spread, won't go near that

I think the whole big freeze thing is falling apart in the weather forum

George Sunsnow

Reggie. wrote: »

I think the whole big freeze thing is falling apart in the weather forum

Which weather forum is that,the Seychelles or the Hawaii forum because I can assure you it’s very much on
I wouldn’t mind casual visitors to there who don’t know what they’re talking about

Reggie.

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Which weather forum is that,the Seychelles or the Hawaii forum because I can assure you it’s very much on
I wouldn’t mind casual visitors to there who don’t know what they’re talking about

You can relax there George. It may come or may not. It doesn't bother me either way. I think it's just got a little excited early on and that it's slowly being peeled back from the snowmageddon that was being talked about the last 48 hrs

Well there's opinions on Facebook sites that it might not be as bad as once predicted. I believe down to 70% now that the UK will get snow and that it's getting pushed back a few hours at a time. So they are saying Monday evening now rather than Sunday.

George Sunsnow

I don’t think so tbh Reggie but of course I could be wrong
It would be better
Lovely black Friesan Heifer calf so I can go to bed now!

I says

Reggie. wrote: »

I think the whole big freeze thing is falling apart in the weather forum

Big freeze me hole

Waffletraktor

Reggie. wrote: »

You can relax there George. It may come or may not. It doesn't bother me either way. I think it's just got a little excited early on and that it's slowly being peeled back from the snowmageddon that was being talked about the last 48 hrs

Well there's opinions on Facebook sites that it might not be as bad as once predicted. I believe down to 70% now that the UK will get snow and that it's getting pushed back a few hours at a time. So they are saying Monday evening now rather than Sunday.

We were at -10 for Weds night with snow now back to -7 thursday into weekend probably with a light dusting
.

CloughCasey1

Waffletraktor wrote: »

We were at -10 for Weds night with snow now back to -7 thursday into weekend probably with a light dusting
.

Of urea or snow?

Waffletraktor

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Of urea or snow?

Urea/s and An been dribbled out by now for 1st split.

larthehar

What about 0.7.30? Leave it in the bag?

foxirl

Any issue with spreading half bag urea to acre on fairly bare ground. Only reseeded in autumn but still fairly bare

Lambman

Going with urea here today 2x 37.5kg bags of 46% till the hectare hoping the weather forecast isn't as bad as it's giving I'm well north here.

Keepgrowing

foxirl wrote: »

Any issue with spreading half bag urea to acre on fairly bare ground. Only reseeded in autumn but still fairly bare

Spread a bag, too late for messing with 1/2 bags

triggerharvey

how much urea would ye recommend to spread per acre for grazing on land that received slurry and land that got no slurry

trabpc

I says wrote: »

Big freeze me hole

?

Never wrestle with pigs

triggerharvey wrote: »

how much urea would ye recommend to spread per acre for grazing on land that received slurry and land that got no slurry

Sher put out a few bags, all the stuff gone out last week is working wonders 😂

Bass Reeves

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Sher put out a few bags, all the stuff gone out last week is working wonders ��

It takes urea about 10-12 days to convert to a usable form of N like CAN. Lads who got Fertlizer last weekend and before are winning. The N should have been taken into the plant roots within 2-3 days. When soil temperature improve ( and they will) these lads will have grass ready to start growing

Lads that have fertlizer in the bag especially urea will be 2-3 weeks behind these lads. As well after snow spreading conditions will not be ideal (if you get rain) for a few days. I have never seen fertlizer grow grass in a bag.

There is a another factor. Farming is always an element of risk. Take a lads that is spreading fertlizer early in the year every year. Every few years he may have a fertlizer loss due to a heavy rain fall. Such an event may happen one in five years say. In my case on average I get cattle out about 3-4 weeks earlier than a lot of people around me. Now average per day wintering costs are a way lower than most but I would still save over 50c/day in costs and get the benefit of extra thrive that comes with spring grass. That is worth 30+euro/head/year. On 50 cattle that is over 1500 euro. Over 5 years that is 7.5K as against losing 500 euro worth of fertlizer in the same timespan.

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is a another factor. Farming is always an element of risk. Take a lads that is spreading fertlizer early in the year every year. Every few years he may have a fertlizer loss due to a heavy rain fall. Such an event may happen one in five years say. In my case on average I get cattle out about 3-4 weeks earlier than a lot of people around me. Now average per day wintering costs are a way lower than most but I would still save over 50c/day in costs and get the benefit of extra thrive that comes with spring grass. That is worth 30+euro/head/year. On 50 cattle that is over 1500 euro. Over 5 years that is 7.5K as against losing 500 euro worth of fertlizer in the same timespan.

That comparison leaves a lot out, you'd probably be talking 5-600 extra a year through more n,p,k, lime and reseeding, before taking into account a for more infrastructure and the knowledge of the lad behind the wheel.

Bass Reeves

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

That comparison leaves a lot out, you'd probably be talking 5-600 extra a year through more n,p,k, lime and reseeding, before taking into account a for more infrastructure and the knowledge of the lad behind the wheel.

5-600/year is nothing on a midsized farm. if you are replacing fertilizer with bought in fodder fertilizer wins all the time. Reseeding is to a large extend immaterial as if your fertility is not right there is no point in reseeding. Infrastructure is a long term investment. Most sheds etc will last 50 years and good fencing 20+.

It is the efficiency of the system that counts. By the way I am not talking about the Derrypatrick farm model or the new FJ project. Both of these if commercial venture would be bust by now. If anything they show that the race to hyper efficiency is harder that theorists think. It shows the flaw in the top 10% argument. However fertilizer and early grass are a huge step in farm profitability. Weight gained inside in a shed is often at best break even on most farms.

Green farmer

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It takes urea about 10-12 days to convert to a usable form of N like CAN. Lads who got Fertlizer last weekend and before are winning. The N should have been taken into the plant roots within 2-3 days. When soil temperature improve ( and they will) these lads will have grass ready to start growing

Lads that have fertlizer in the bag especially urea will be 2-3 weeks behind these lads. As well after snow spreading conditions will not be ideal (if you get rain) for a few days.

Snow all gone here and land should be trafficable here in next day or two. Would you still recommend getting urea out or something else as hopefully temperature will have improved by time urea has converted in 10-12 days ?

MF290

No way early urea would have made sense here this year anyway. Following the met eireann soil temps, highest they went was 5 degrees end of January and have been below that ever since. Looking over the past 4 years and soil temps only ever hit 6 in march in our area.

Bass Reeves

Green farmer wrote: »

Snow all gone here and land should be trafficable here in next day or two. Would you still recommend getting urea out or something else as hopefully temperature will have improved by time urea has converted in 10-12 days

If you get a forecast that shows 2-3 days with out serious rain( less than 5mm) yes I would spread. Forecast locally is 5mm today, Mon 2mm, Tue 14mm, Wed 3mm, Thurs No rain, Fri 3mm, Sat 7mm, Sun 15mm.

That means that means only window more than likely is Wed to spread.

MF290 wrote: »

No way early urea would have made sense here this year anyway. Following the met eireann soil temps, highest they went was 5 degrees end of January and have been below that ever since. Looking over the past 4 years and soil temps only ever hit 6 in march in our area.

My understanding is that while grass will noty grow sub 6c roots will take up nutrients below this. When I spread 10 days ago temperatures were about 6C. As a gambling man I think the N was taken up. During the real cold spring of 2014 I spread N in Feb and Mar I got grass growth limited but enough to keep 50% of the stock out. Soil Temp have dropped 4c in the last week

It a bit like a tractor it will not drive if the diesel is in a drum. If it is in the tank of the tractor it is ready to goo when conditions are right.

yosemitesam1

MF290 wrote: »

No way early urea would have made sense here this year anyway. Following the met eireann soil temps, highest they went was 5 degrees end of January and have been below that ever since. Looking over the past 4 years and soil temps only ever hit 6 in march in our area.

It doesn't make sense most years, before you allow for the fact that the "response" of 10kg per kg of fert isn't actually 10kg more than a field receiving 0 fert in spring (all else being equal).

Was research done on this years ago and the results would have most people spreading later if they wanted to be fairly sure of getting the most out of fert.

Green farmer

Trying to my head around urea. Is it harder on the soil then compound fertilisers ? Have some lower index soils, so is it recommended for those or would you ideally need index 3 and 4 for urea ?

Say my name

Green farmer wrote: »

Trying to my head around urea. Is it harder on the soil then compound fertilisers ? Have some lower index soils, so is it recommended for those or would you ideally need index 3 and 4 for urea ?

It's all about the soil pH with urea (and microbes)
My head is like a sieve with information but some sticks.
Basically urea has 100% of a certain type of nitrogen. C.A.N has 50% of that type of nitrogen and 50% of a different kind.
The type of nitrogen that Urea has is harder on the soil pH than the other type.
That is it will reduce the soil pH.
It'll have no effect on P and K indexes.
The growing plant will take up the P and K out of the ground and if it's not replaced will reduce your indexes. But also depends on your natural soil indexes. Every soil is different.
In my experience urea matches well with slurry or dung on land. Urea doesn't work as well on the soil here without dung or slurry unless it's washed in straight away into the soil where it then becomes a different type of nitrogen that is available straight away to the plant. That's what i find here anyways.

yosemitesam1

Green farmer wrote: »

Trying to my head around urea. Is it harder on the soil then compound fertilisers ? Have some lower index soils, so is it recommended for those or would you ideally need index 3 and 4 for urea ?

Can is 20% lime with the nitrogen coming half from ammonium and half from nitrate.
Urea has to be turned into ammonium first which needs oxygen, if it's absorbed by the plant as ammonium. The plant will have to acidify the root zone to absorb it.
The majority of urea would be first turned into nitrate which needs more oxygen and also results in the production of acid (hydrogen).
When the plant absorbs nitrate, the root zone pH rises but I think it only counteracts half the rise in pH caused by the change of ammonium to nitrate.
So urea would be harder on the soil ph, but what difference that would have on growth would probably depend on the peculiarities of you're own soil (al,mn,fe release) more than anything else...

Green farmer

Thanks lads, might stick to the can or 27 2.5 5 as I don’t have any access to slurry.

Bass Reeves

Took soil temperatures just now. Varied from 6-8C. Admittedly this is on the warmist part of the farm but it is still about 60%of my land. Met Eireann says average 3C at most. Do your own check. Looking at the place taught it was greened up compared to a few days ago.

Reggie.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Took soil temperatures just now. Varied from 6-8C. Admittedly this is on the warmist part of the farm but it is still about 60%of my land. Met Eireann says average 3C at most. Do your own check. Looking at the place taught it was greened up compared to a few days ago.

Have to admit it's strangely warm outside today. Wet tho. Might put out a small amount of 18 6 12 just to have something out

MF290

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Took soil temperatures just now. Varied from 6-8C. Admittedly this is on the warmist part of the farm but it is still about 60%of my land. Met Eireann says average 3C at most. Do your own check. Looking at the place taught it was greened up compared to a few days ago.

It's a rolling 7 day average soil temp for met eireann, earlier days probably dragging it down. Not showing soil temps for my area at all atm

Green farmer

MF290 wrote: »

It's a rolling 7 day average soil temp for met eireann, earlier days probably dragging it down. Not showing soil temps for my area at all atm

Don’t really even understand the benefit of 7 day average for the week gone by. I’d prefer if they gave what the last day or two was and a simple prediction of soil temperatures for next day or two is going to be. Just to help us know when the soil is over 5.5 degrees.

Bass Reeves

MF290 wrote: »

It's a rolling 7 day average soil temp for met eireann, earlier days probably dragging it down. Not showing soil temps for my area at all atm

Yes I understand that but it is really off putting from a farming point of view

jimmy G M

Finished spreading the last of the urea today after work.
The fields that were spread before the snow around Feb 26th are really starting to green up now compared to the fields that I was spreading on today.

Now if we could only get a mild spell to get some growth going.

Neddyusa

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes I understand that but it is really off putting from a farming point of view

Not really.

Growth doesn't kick off instantly when soil temp goes above 6 degrees.

It needs to be above 6 on average for a week before growth kicks off.
So the weekly average is actually more useful than a daily temp.

Only just gone above 6 here the past two days.

Bass Reeves

Neddyusa wrote: »

Not really.

Growth doesn't kick off instantly when soil temp goes above 6 degrees.

It needs to be above 6 on average for a week before growth kicks off.
So the weekly average is actually more useful than a daily temp.

Only just gone above 6 here the past two days.

However Urea needs to be out 10ish days for the chemical reaction to take place so that the N ia available to grass. There is no question taht growth is slow at 6C and it is not until the ground Temp reaches 8 taht growth starts to take off. Ground temp need to reach 12C before we get growth that is not stop start due to weather.

I think what some fail to understand is that Urea spread in mid/late Feb is not only still available but the N is now available to plants. As well lads will want to get used to this. There is a movement to remove CAN as a fertilizer and that N will only be available to farmers in Urea form as it is less harmful to the enviorment from a carbon point of view.

From the Temp probe readings on the attachment if you had spread urea around the 18th Feb the N would have been taken up by the plants and now available to be used as ground temp increase. I can see the difference in my place in the last few days, yes it is slow but it is a job done. If I waited until now to spread it would be the 23rd march before grass had N available in the right form for grass to use.

As well you have to factor in rain. Looking at the weather forecast we are forecast 14-18mm of rain for Wed and Thurs This is not ideal to spread fertilizer as rain will wash it along the surface of the ground. The weekend was much the same if I had not taken the opportunity in mid Feb I be looking at not spreading until St Patrick's day. I have to spread CAN which works out at 50c/unit N compared to 38c/unit N for Urea. I spread about 1.2T urea in Feb equivlent in CAN now would cost me another 150 euro.

FeelTheBern

Bass Reeves wrote: »

However Urea needs to be out 10ish days for the chemical reaction to take place so that the N ia available to grass. There is no question taht growth is slow at 6C and it is not until the ground Temp reaches 8 taht growth starts to take off. Ground temp need to reach 12C before we get growth that is not stop start due to weather.

I think what some fail to understand is that Urea spread in mid/late Feb is not only still available but the N is now available to plants. As well lads will want to get used to this. There is a movement to remove CAN as a fertilizer and that N will only be available to farmers in Urea form as it is less harmful to the enviorment from a carbon point of view.

From the Temp probe readings on the attachment if you had spread urea around the 18th Feb the N would have been taken up by the plants and now available to be used as ground temp increase. I can see the difference in my place in the last few days, yes it is slow but it is a job done. If I waited until now to spread it would be the 23rd march before grass had N available in the right form for grass to use.

I have to spread CAN which works out at 50c/unit N compared to 38c/unit N for Urea. I spread about 1.2T urea in Feb equivlent in CAN now would cost me another 150 euro.

Just wondering - are you saying you couldn't spread urea now or if you had to spread CAN?

Bass Reeves

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Just wondering - are you saying you couldn't spread urea now or if you had to spread CAN?

If I spread urea now it would be 10ish days before the N is available to plants due to the form N is in. The N in Can is available after 2 days it takes N in Urea about 10 days to change into a form available for growth. To drive grass I would have to use Can if spreading now and I still could not spread until weekend because of weather forecast

foxirl

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If I spread urea now it would be 10ish days before the N is available to plants due to the form N is in. The N in Can is available after 2 days it takes N in Urea about 10 days to change into a form available for growth. To drive grass I would have to use Can if spreading now and I still could not spread until weekend because of weather forecast

How long does it take for N to be taken up by plants in something like 18-6-12

Bass Reeves

foxirl wrote: »

How long does it take for N to be taken up by plants in something like 18-6-12

18-6-12 can be CAN or urea based. Lads usually by CAN based. So in general the N is the same as in CAN

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If I spread urea now it would be 10ish days before the N is available to plants due to the form N is in. The N in Can is available after 2 days it takes N in Urea about 10 days to change into a form available for growth. To drive grass I would have to use Can if spreading now and I still could not spread until weekend because of weather forecast

That probably wouldn't show up any difference in growth at all. Can might make a field look greener faster but the grass is still able to absorb the urea from 2-3 days. The difference is that grass can decide how much ammonium n to absorb versus having no choice with nitrate as it comes dissolved in water. It takes a lot of energy for the grass to change nitrate into protein form. So while urea fertilised grass might not turn green so fast, it's not really disadvantaged and probably benefits slightly in the short-term at this time of year.

_Brian

Green farmer wrote: »

Thanks lads, might stick to the can or 27 2.5 5 as I don’t have any access to slurry.

I’ll perhaps show my ignorance here but I was always told not to go with much CAN type compound if no slurry or dung is being spread as P and K will get spun out and then diminished returns even from the N you are spreading.

It’s why we go with 18:6:12 on such ground.

wrangler

_Brian wrote: »

I’ll perhaps show my ignorance here but I was always told not to go with much CAN type compound if no slurry or dung is being spread as P and K will get spun out and then diminished returns even from the N you are spreading.

It’s why we go with 18:6:12 on such ground.

Agred
Even every lamb sold brings off a bit of P and K with them as well, they don't recycle it all back into the ground.
18 6 12 is a good top up

Green farmer

_Brian wrote: »

I’ll perhaps show my ignorance here but I was always told not to go with much CAN type compound if no slurry or dung is being spread as P and K will get spun out and then diminished returns even from the N you are spreading.

It’s why we go with 18:6:12 on such ground.

I went with 27 2.5 5, that had same type N as Can instead of urea. Usually use the 18 6 12, but will wait for second half of season when grass tetany wouldn’t be as much a issue to spread it.