Dublin bus lost and found fee

lifeandtimes

Hi,

One of the guys in work has just told me he was at the dublin bus lost and found this morning. Said he left his wallet on the bus yesterday and someone handed it to the driver. He went to collect but was told he had to pay a €2 "Storage fee" to retrieve his wallet. He had no cash on him( as he had lost his wallet) and had to come into work to borrow €2 to get it back.

What grounds do dublin bus have to charge people to retieve thier property?

Withholding of someones property is regarded as theft if i remember.

Can taxi drivers (or any other entity) do the same if thats the case? I know landlords cant withhold proprty due to unpaid rent etc, i know its the same situation but i used it just as a reference

What if someone refused and went to the guards about them withholding their property?

Mr. Incognito

So someone found his wallet and handed it in and he is griping about €2?

Some people take the biscuit.

georgina toadbum

I wouldn't think so. If your car gets impounded you've to pay a release fee as well. At the end of the day it's only €2. You'd think he'd be grateful to get his wallet back.

lifeandtimes

thanks for the replies.

I didnt create the thread to argue about his issue with paying 2 euro, infact i didnt even say he had an issue, just he didnt have it on him.

Id like to discuss what legal ground they have to withhold proporty that was handed into them?

Stuff is handed into the guards and they dont charge to release.

georgina toadbum wrote: »

I wouldn't think so. If your car gets impounded you've to pay a release fee as well. At the end of the day it's only €2. You'd think he'd be grateful to get his wallet back.

thats impounded and theirs a release for breaking a law. This is different,someone has lost property and its handed in and they are being charged to get it back

bucketybuck

lifeandtimes wrote: »

thanks for the replies.

I didnt create the thread to argue about his issue with paying 2 euro.

Id like to discuss what legal ground they have to withhold proporty that was handed into them?

Stuff is handed into the guards and they dont charge to release.



thats impounded and theirs a release for breaking a law. This is different,someone has lost property and its handed in and they are being charged to get it back

Shall I point out the rather obvious alternative to you?

Gravelly

Dublin Airport charge €6 to release something from lost & found. In the US Uber charge $15 (don't know if/what they charge here), and if you lose your phone in Heathrow, they'll charge you £20 to give it back.

lifeandtimes

thanks for all the exmples of where this happens, i didnt know them which makes it interesting.

Is there any case law of people who have contested this?

Any law that says people can withhold other peoples property and charge a fee to release?

Gravelly

lifeandtimes wrote: »

thanks for all the exmples of where this happens, i didnt know them which makes it interesting.

Is there any case law of people who have contested this?

Any law that says people can withhold other peoples property and charge a fee to release?

I believe, but don't know for sure, that some airports (certainly some of the UK ones) have their lost & found operated by a private company. Might be worth googling it and seeing if they have legal terms & conditions on their website that might answer that question.

Ashbx

That is ridiculous! If it were me, I would be making a complaint to Dublin Bus about that.

I highly doubt they have any grounds to do that. I lost my wallet and was handed into a Garda station and the guards gave it back without charging me anything. Yes I understand its only €2 but its your property. Id say Dublin Bus just get huge volumes of lost and found items that they probably do have to have storage for it all and they saw an opportunity to make some money or to cover the charge of the storage (which is probably just an extra room in their offices so no charge at all).

Ashbx

georgina toadbum wrote: »

I wouldn't think so. If your car gets impounded you've to pay a release fee as well. At the end of the day it's only €2. You'd think he'd be grateful to get his wallet back.

Your car gets impounded because you parked illegally and didn't move or are driving without tax....not because you forgot where you parked it.

A more accurate scenario would be if were in a shopping centre and lost your car park ticket....do the people there charge you a fee to let you out of the car park??

Ashbx

Gravelly wrote: »

Dublin Airport charge €6 to release something from lost & found. In the US Uber charge $15 (don't know if/what they charge here), and if you lose your phone in Heathrow, they'll charge you £20 to give it back.

Wow I didn't know that. I might start my own lost and found company in Dublin City Centre and make myself a small fortune

lifeandtimes

Ashbx wrote: »

A more accurate scenario would be if were in a shopping centre and lost your car park ticket....do the people there charge you a fee to let you out of the car park??

Im not being smart but yes they do, the cost of a ticket

It doesn't apply here as you were gonna to pay for the parking service anyway

Gravelly

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Im not being smart but yes they do, the cost of a ticket

Most places will charge you the price of a full days parking, even if you have only been there an hour if you lose your ticket - I often see that on carpark signs.

Ashbx

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Im not being smart but yes they do, the cost of a ticket

Do you mean the cost of the car park? As in what I would have already paid regardless if I lost the ticket or not. If that is what you mean, then yes you are being smart ha ha!

Well in my experience, ive lost my ticket twice in two separate shopping centres and neither charged me any EXTRA (i.e. in addition to the cost of the car park).

Victor

I don't see it as being unreasonable. Bye-laws may apply. A finder is legally entitled to something like 5%.

Ashbx wrote: »

A more accurate scenario would be if were in a shopping centre and lost your car park ticket....do the people there charge you a fee to let you out of the car park??

Most car parks will charge a full day's parking / a steep fee for this to prevent people gaming the system.

Gravelly wrote: »

if you lose your phone in Heathrow, they'll charge you £20 to give it back.

After they blow it up.

lifeandtimes

Ashbx wrote: »

Wow I didn't know that. I might start my own lost and found company in Dublin City Centre and make myself a small fortune

give people one euro for handing stuff in will insetivise people to hand proprty in, charge people two euro to retrive it.

lorcand1990

Ashbx wrote: »

Do you mean the cost of the car park? As in what I would have already paid regardless if I lost the ticket or not. If that is what you mean, then yes you are being smart ha ha!

Well in my experience, ive lost my ticket twice in two separate shopping centres and neither charged me any EXTRA (i.e. in addition to the cost of the car park).

If you lose your ticket in a car park, they will usually charge you the max day rate as they have no idea how long you stayed in the car park, which makes some sense. So in essence you have been charged more because if you only stayed 2 hours but are getting charged at the max rate because you lost your ticket

It's not really comparable to losing a wallet on a bus as one is a service provided & the other is a piece of property that has been mislaid.

Gravelly

lifeandtimes wrote: »

give people one euro for handing stuff in will insetivise people to hand proprty in, charge people two euro to retrive it.

And have young scallywags nabbing every jacket, scarf, etc. they see in the station in order to get a "yoooro" for handing it in.

endacl

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Im not being smart but yes they do, the cost of a ticket

It doesn't apply here as you were gonna to pay for the parking service anyway

They don’t if you get on the intercom at the gate and say something along the lines of “howya. Was just doing a bit of work on the lights in <insert name of shop>. Finished up now”. Security don’t really care Mod amendment in most places and will lift the barrier.

punisher5112

Go in some day and look at the size of the lost and found.

A van, driver, fuel, wages etc etc has to be covered.

dB could just leave it or throw in the bin.

The €2 doesn't cover much of cost

Del2005

Ashbx wrote: »

That is ridiculous! If it were me, I would be making a complaint to Dublin Bus about that.

I highly doubt they have any grounds to do that. I lost my wallet and was handed into a Garda station and the guards gave it back without charging me anything. Yes I understand its only €2 but its your property. Id say Dublin Bus just get huge volumes of lost and found items that they probably do have to have storage for it all and they saw an opportunity to make some money or to cover the charge of the storage (which is probably just an extra room in their offices so no charge at all).

Is the person in the lost and found supposed to work for free. The receiving, cataloguing and eventual returning to the owner takes time. Why should a person who hasn't lost something subside the forgetful?

The Gardaí are public servants and have to have a person on the station desk so they can do lost and found as part of their role. Dublin Bus or any other company doesn't have to have a lost and found so they are doing you a favour. You won't believe the amount of hassle property left behind is for employees.

As for the person asking about a taxi charging. If the driver is going out of their way they are entitled to charge the fare for the journey, so most try to drop it when local but if you insist on a speedy delivery they will charge and if you get cheeky they'll drop it to the carriage office.

lifeandtimes

Lots of great responses

Can anyone link me to bye laws that says companies can charge people to return their property to them?

GM228

Victor wrote: »

A finder is legally entitled to something like 5%.

I believe this to me a myth Victor, having researched the topic before I have never found anything to support this view via statute or common law.

The only provisions in law regarding compensation to the finder was under the S2 (2)(b) of the Police (Property) Act 1897 which allowed the option of a ministerial regulation to allow for such compensation, but no such regulations were ever made.

Do the bus company have any legal obligation to mind my property if I lose it ?

Gravelly

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Lots of great responses

Can anyone link me to bye laws that says companies can charge people to return their property to them?

Have you tried googling it?

Would it be covered by Section 2 (b) here

(2) The regulations may authorise the sale of any such property, and the application of the proceeds of any such sale, and the application of any money of which the owner cannot be ascertained, to all or any of the following purposes:—

(a) the expenses of executing the regulations;

(b) the payment of reasonable compensation to any person by whom the property has been delivered into the possession of the police;

(c) the making of payments for the benefit of discharged prisoners or of persons dependent on prisoners or discharged prisoners; or

(d) such other purposes as the Secretary of State may consider expedient.

lifeandtimes

Gravelly wrote: »

Have you tried googling it?

Would it be covered by Section 2 (b) here

(2) The regulations may authorise the sale of any such property, and the application of the proceeds of any such sale, and the application of any money of which the owner cannot be ascertained, to all or any of the following purposes:—

(a) the expenses of executing the regulations;

(b) the payment of reasonable compensation to any person by whom the property has been delivered into the possession of the police;

(c) the making of payments for the benefit of discharged prisoners or of persons dependent on prisoners or discharged prisoners; or

(d) such other purposes as the Secretary of State may consider expedient.

I belive that applies to criminal property or property bought with the proceeds of crime that are then auctioned off

GM228

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Can anyone link me to bye laws that says companies can charge people to return their property to them?

Yeap.

Transport Act 1950 allows for DB, BE and IE to do such under bye law:-

22.—(1) The Board may make bye-laws for all or any of the following purposes:—

<SNIP>

(g) for providing for the safe custody and re-delivery or disposal of any property found on or in any premises, vessels or vehicles belonging to the Board and for fixing the charges to be made by the Board in respect thereof

Now DB didn't actually put such a provision in their bye-laws, but it's a service as part of their (and BE also) conditions of carriages which brings us to the Transport Act 1958:-

Terms and conditions of carriage.

8.— (1) In this section—

“charges” includes fares, rates or tolls;

“service” means any of the following—

( a) the conveyance of passengers and their luggage,

( b) the receiving, forwarding, carrying and delivering of merchandise,

( c) any other transport service or facility.

( cc ) the provision of parking facilities for vehicles on land belonging to or occupied by the Board, including charges for failure to comply with bye-laws made under section 22(1)( ee ) of the Act of 1950,

(2) The Board may fix, demand, take and recover such charges as the Board thinks fit for any service provided by it.

(3) The Board may attach to any service provided by it such terms and conditions as the Board thinks fit.

Gravelly

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I belive that applies to criminal property or property bought with the proceeds of crime that are then auctioned off

Damn. I probably should have read that bit first. For a brief, wonderful moment there, I thought I'd finally bluffed my way into the Boards Legal Mod deletion Club

GM228

Gravelly wrote: »

Have you tried googling it?

Would it be covered by Section 2 (b) here

You missed my previous post where I mentioned the 1897 Act!

lifeandtimes

GM228 wrote: »

Yeap.

Transport Act 1950 allows for DB, BE and IE to do such under bye law:-



Now DB didn't actually put such a provision in their bye-laws, but it's a service as part of their (and BE also) conditions of carriages which brings us to the Transport Act 1958:-

if its not in their bye laws, would you have a decent chance at challanging?

Not everyone knows to check the transport acts regarding this stuff (or even who it applies too as some are private and public) and rely heavily on the service providers to inform them.

(granted they say there is a fee on their website but im asking for arguments sake)

bucketybuck

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Lots of great responses

Can anyone link me to bye laws that says companies can charge people to return their property to them?

How about a link to the policy that says that if "lost and found" is a financial burden then it would be better not to have one, and that all unaccompanied items are instead summarily disposed off.

Bye bye laws, in other words.

Gravelly

GM228 wrote: »

You missed my previous post where I mentioned the 1897 Act!

In my headlong rush to grab an opportunity to ingratiate myself with the Boards Legal /Mod eletiond/ Club, I saw nothing but the possible glory ahead of me. I have no regrets.

Mod
Pls keep it civil here

lifeandtimes

bucketybuck wrote: »

How about a link to the policy that says that if "lost and found" is a financial burden then it would be better not to have one, and that all unaccompanied items are instead summarily disposed off.

Bye bye laws, in other words.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Global/Customer%20Charter%202017%20English%20Final.pdf

its advised in their customer charter but how legally binding that is i dont know.

Our Charter shows that we are committed to providing the
highest standards of service. It does not affect your or our
legal rights or duties.
As well as our commitment to providing a quality service, your
customers’ rights are protected by EC Regulation 181/2011. This
regulation affords rights to customers using bus and coach
transport within the European Union.

Do you agree to the terms of the charter when purchasing a ticket or entering the bus?

bucketybuck

lifeandtimes wrote: »

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Global/Customer%20Charter%202017%20English%20Final.pdf

its advised in their customer charter but how legally binding that is i dont know.

Our Charter shows that we are committed to providing the
highest standards of service. It does not affect your or our
legal rights or duties.
As well as our commitment to providing a quality service, your
customers’ rights are protected by EC Regulation 181/2011. This
regulation affords rights to customers using bus and coach
transport within the European Union.

Do you agree to the terms of the charter when purchasing a ticket or entering the bus?

Why did you quote that as if it meant anything?

the_syco

Ashbx wrote: »

That is ridiculous! If it were me, I would be making a complaint to Dublin Bus about that.

They'll probably just get rid of the Lost & Found...

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Can anyone link me to bye laws that says companies can charge people to return their property to them?

Is there a law stating that a Lost & Found must exist?

punisher5112

Quite simple really, if it ends up costing more ticket fares will have to increase and most likely anything lost would never be found as the stuff would go straight into a bin.

uck51js9zml2yt

Who pays for the space needed to store something which someone couldn't mind?
Not to mention, utilities and wages for the staff.
€2 is very reasonable.

ArmaniJeanss

Aerlingus to charge €20 for wallets/purses, €30 for phones and €60 for laptops.

http://www.newstalk.com/Aer-Lingus-passengers-face-charges-of-up-to-60-for-lost-property-returns

the_pen_turner

2 euro is not a lot of money but that's not the point

surely the anti theft laws apply here.
if I find something on the street I have to make a good attempt to return it to the owner .
doesn't it also apply to stopping someone free use of their property.

surely Dublin bus have to return our property or it would be theft

bucketybuck

Or, surely leaving your property in their storage space is availing of a service and should warrant a rental charge?

Or surely its littering and should warrant a small fine?

lifeandtimes

the_pen_turner wrote: »

2 euro is not a lot of money but that's not the point

surely the anti theft laws apply here.
if I find something on the street I have to make a good attempt to return it to the owner .
doesn't it also apply to stopping someone free use of their property.

surely Dublin bus have to return our property or it would be theft

Well I'm wondering where do you stand if say you left your wallet,laptop,phone etc or anything with a significant value on a bus and they confirmed it was in a depot and when you went to collect you do not agree to pay the fee.

Where does it stand then?

They have your property without your consent and refuse to return it unless you pay them. Say if it was a work laptop and it causes revenue loss by them not returning it could you claim damages etc

I'd be interested in hearing any debate for and against if someone brought it to court or even if they could ( would be great if someone could prove how it couldn't be brought to court)

Victor

lifeandtimes wrote: »

They have your property without your consent and refuse to return it unless you pay them. Say if it was a work laptop and it causes revenue loss by them not returning it could you claim damages etc

Isn't there an obligation to mitigate your losses, which you can do by paying the €2?

punisher5112

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Well I'm wondering where do you stand if say you left your wallet,laptop,phone etc or anything with a significant value on a bus and they confirmed it was in a depot and when you went to collect you do not agree to pay the fee.

Where does it stand then?

They have your property without your consent and refuse to return it unless you pay them. Say if it was a work laptop and it causes revenue loss by them not returning it could you claim damages etc

I'd be interested in hearing any debate for and against if someone brought it to court or even if they could ( would be great if someone could prove how it couldn't be brought to court)

If you catch the lost items in the garage the bus comes out of you won't have to pay as it hasn't left in the can which collect items in the morning from all depots.

lifeandtimes

Victor wrote: »

Isn't there an obligation to mitigate your losses, which you can do by paying the €2?

Let's change the scenario, you live your laptop in a public place and the finder contacts you and says you can have it back for €100

Does it still apply there?

If not then why do DB have the right to charge to return your property? Or Dublin airport etc

The finder of your laptop could find lots of things and claim holding chargers etc as well so why one rule for some and another for the rest

Where does it stop?

I understand the fee being there(I'm not saying I agree just I understand) but I would like to see it challenged on a legal basis and see a judges views on mitigate your loss vrs theft and withholding property without consent

Victor

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Let's change the scenario, you live your laptop in a public place and the finder contacts you and says you can have it back for €100

I once left my phone in a taxi. I paid him the fare from where he was to where I was. Fair?

Why should Dublin Bus be treated any differently?

lifeandtimes

Victor wrote: »

I once left my phone in a taxi. I paid him the fare from where he was to where I was. Fair?

Why should Dublin Bus be treated any differently?

Yes because he had to travel to you, say you went to his home would you then pay the fair from his home to yours to get it back? What if he demanded that you did, double the fair to get your property back. Would you pay and if you refused is it then theft?

punisher5112

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Yes because he had to travel to you, say you went to his home would you then pay the fair from his home to yours to get it back? What if he demanded that you did, double the fair to get your property back. Would you pay and if you refused is it then theft?

Simple they would never find ones phone or anything else.

It's €2 not €200

lifeandtimes

punisher5112 wrote: »

Simple they would never find ones phone or anything else.

It's €2 not €200

Again I'm only offering debate.

Dublin airport can charge up to €60

2 euro could be worth €200 to some

Some people don't have that to spare

Can anyone put up an argument or link to any law that could argue for and against

punisher5112

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Again I'm only offering debate.

Dublin airport can charge up to €60

2 euro could be worth €200 to some

Some people don't have that to spare

Can anyone put up an argument or link to any law that could argue for and against

Will you stop how the hell is €2 like €200 to some.

It's in the company bye laws.

These are in fact lawful.

hullaballoo

I am struggling to see the lawfulness of it myself so I'm not sure a statement like "these are in fact lawful" could be made.

I'd say at best the bylaws are broadly drafted enough to allow for a charge but that doesn't mean the provision allowing for the charge is itself lawful or that there's no need for DB or IR to notify the public of the charge.

CIARAN_BOYLE

My understanding is that operators of a lost and found service are entitled to charge a reasonable fee based on the costs to provide the service. I feel as this comes from case law rather than any act.

The other option would be to check the bus for left behind items at the start or end of the day rather than between running services and dump the entire lost and found into a Gardai station.