Is locking fire exit door illegal for pubs ?

Indricotherium

spongebob89 wrote: »

Great.

Yes OP in my photo it clearly states emergency exit only and it was locked. I am going to lodge a complaint and hope they get a serious fine or something.

Surely you hope they fix the door?

salmocab

Think there are a few confusions here, some exit doors have electric locks that will release when the fire alarm activates however regardless of this there must be a way to open the door manually usually by way of a green breakglass. Some doors are fire doors and will close over when the fire alarm activates these do so to stop the spread of fire but can be just pushed open as they shouldnt lock in the closed position. No emergency exit should ever be locked in the traditional sense as that would be illegal however it is possible that some are fitted with overide key switches to stop an audible alarm sounding when the door is opened this happens when doors are used for deliveries etc.

Indricotherium

seagull wrote: »

They can be also be unlocked and opened manually with no key required.

So are they locked or not?

fritzelly

salmocab wrote: »

regardless of this there must be a way to open the door manually usually by way of a green breakglass.

Sorry didn't see it because of all the smoke - regulations say must be able to be opened immediately

Victor

sydthebeat wrote: »

No escape or fire door should be lockable by a key.

What about the front door on most buildings?

fritzelly

Victor wrote: »

What about the front door on most buildings?

Why would it be locked if there are people in the building?

sydthebeat

Victor wrote: »

What about the front door on most buildings?

If it's a means of escape by people in the building then no, it shouldn't be locked be means of a key. Panic bolts, push bars etc are fine.

Just not keys

sydthebeat

GreeBo wrote: »

We have yet to determine if it's just unlockable by key.

The op said this :

The bar man had to come out with a set of keys and on top of that spent about 5 minutes finding the right key and wrestling with the door to get it open.

If it was openable without a key, he wouldn't have spent five minutes finding the right one.

Victor

fritzelly wrote: »

Why would it be locked if there are people in the building?

To keep people out. Whether it is a bank or an apartment building

Indricotherium wrote: »

So are they locked or not?

Being locked or unlocked is not a binary choice. Being locked does not mean needing a key to open it.

Possible options are:
* Closed, e.g. cupboard door.
* Latched, e.g. cupboard door with child lock or toilet cubicle door
* Locked on the outside, readily openable on the inside - front door of house.
* Locked on the inside, readily openable on the outside - dog kennel.
* Locked to people inside and outside, but openable after a short delay - the security lobbies in AIB branches.
* Locked on the outside, somewhat openable on the inside - front door of bank after hours (only porters, managers and security will be able to open it easily).

fritzelly wrote: »

Sorry didn't see it because of all the smoke - regulations say must be able to be opened immediately

Define "immediately". Do you have a link to the regulations?

fritzelly

Victor wrote: »

Define "immediately". Do you have a link to the regulations?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/467/made/en/print

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

TheChizler

fritzelly wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/467/made/en/print

I'm not sure working in a pub counts as working in an extractive industry...

fritzelly

TheChizler wrote: »

I'm not sure working in a pub counts as working in an extractive industry...

Hahaha - didn't look at the industry. It's standard text for all industries

http://vfipubs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Health__Safety_Handbook-LINK-to-Home-Page.pdf

But it kinda does come under extractive industry :rolleyes:

Mrs OBumble

sydthebeat wrote: »

If it's a means of escape by people in the building then no, it shouldn't be locked be means of a key. Panic bolts, push bars etc are fine.

Just not keys

I have been in many industrial and office buildings where the main door was key locked with no alternative. In some, I've been the one who locked the door cos it was 5pm and reception was closing. Anytenants were expected to let themselves out with their own keywhich i hope they grabbed when the alarm went off.

Being from overseas i was horried by this, but was told its standard here.

Victor

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have been in many industrial and office buildings where the main door was key locked with no alternative. In some, I've been the one who locked the door cos it was 5pm and reception was closing. Anytenants were expected to let themselves out with their own keywhich i hope they grabbed when the alarm went off.

Being from overseas i was horried by this, but was told its standard here.

That will depend on the size of the building and the number of people occupying it - there is a big difference between a creche with 50 kids and 10 staff in it and the same creche with only the manager and two cleaners.

GM228

fritzelly wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

I'm not sure working in a pub counts as working in an extractive industry...

Hahaha - didn't look at the industry. It's standard text for all industries

http://vfipubs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Health__Safety_Handbook-LINK-to-Home-Page.pdf

But it kinda does come under extractive industry :rolleyes:

A pub is kinda an extractive industry?

The extraction of raw materials (metals, mineral and aggregates) from the earth is an extractive industry, whilst the odd punter may need to be extracted from the floor of the pub after a few too many the odd time a pub would still not count

But, you are on the right page as the same provision is provided under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007:-

Emergency routes and exits

12. Without predjudice to section 11 of the Act, the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003 (No. 30 of 1981 and No.15 of 2003) and other relevant legislation, an employer shall ensure that—

<SNIP>

(f)    emergency doors and gates are not so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by any person who may need to use them in an emergency

Note that the regulations don't say emergency exits can't be locked, rather they say they can be locked but must be easily and immediately openable.

ted1

Victor wrote: »

BattleCorp wrote: »

This shouldn't be the case. They should open independently of the fire alarm.

What would happen if there was a fire and the fire alarm was defective?

I imagine it is designed to fail safe - that the alarm will self-report as defective and the door locks (the bolt on the bush bar will still work) will deactivate, as they can't detect the fire alarm system.

Oh how I hate the word imagine , it gives people an excuse to talk rubbish.

The door is an emergency exit. Not s fire exit. A fire alarm would not go off during a gas leak, over crowding crush, terrorist attack , roof collapse etc

sydthebeat

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have been in many industrial and office buildings where the main door was key locked with no alternative. In some, I've been the one who locked the door cos it was 5pm and reception was closing. Anytenants were expected to let themselves out with their own keywhich i hope they grabbed when the alarm went off.

Being from overseas i was horried by this, but was told its standard here.

Key locking an unoccupied building, while not perfect, isn't illegal.
Also, not all main entrances are escape routes eg quite often in hotels etc the escape routes do not lead to the main access as that brings people into large open plan areas where they could get lost if that's lots of smoke.
Stair well escape routes leading to the outside are the primary means of escape.

The rule of thumb, if there's an emergency exit sign and light over it, it shouldn't be key lockable.

GreeBo

sydthebeat wrote: »

The op said this :

The bar man had to come out with a set of keys and on top of that spent about 5 minutes finding the right key and wrestling with the door to get it open.

If it was openable without a key, he wouldn't have spent five minutes finding the right one.

He would if opening it would sound the alarm.

GreeBo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Key locking an unoccupied building, while not perfect, isn't illegal.
Also, not all main entrances are escape routes eg quite often in hotels etc the escape routes do not lead to the main access as that brings people into large open plan areas where they could get lost if that's lots of smoke.
Stair well escape routes leading to the outside are the primary means of escape.

The rule of thumb, if there's an emergency exit sign and light over it, it shouldn't be key lockable.

All emergency exits can be locked, with or without a key.

The requirement is that you must not *require* a key to unlock it.

This is *not* the same as it being possible to unlock it using a key.

Opening an emergency exit will sound the alarm, unlocking it with a key will not sound the alarm. There is nothing wrong with this.

listermint

Sounds to me like this is an emergency exit and it probably had a chain wrapped around the push bar, which is quite common in industrial buildings large retail or pub trades.

Working in a large retail provider during my formative years 1 person was charged with unlocking all 8 fire doors around the building (releasing the padlock on the chain and removing chain first thing prior to start of every shift and then at the end of day closing them up with the same method. once everyone was off the floor.

Sounds like this pub simply isnt complying which is illegal and should by all means be reported.

seagull

fritzelly wrote: »

The fact that you say unlocked and opened goes against all regulation about a fire exit door

Unlocked as in push down bar that keeps door locked. There is no key involved. All fire doors have some kind of lock on them. You don't want all and sundry to be able to just wander in through a fire door from outside.

Cannot also believe that fire exits would rely on a system where they automatically unlock when the fire alarm goes off - any kind of mechanical malfunction and you've got hundreds of dead people

Read the whole post. It doesn't rely on that. They open automatically with the fire alarm. In the case of an issue with that, the first person to the door can still open it manually.

Mrs OBumble

sydthebeat wrote: »

Key locking an unoccupied building, while not perfect, isn't illegal.
Also, not all main entrances are escape routes eg quite often in hotels etc the escape routes do not lead to the main access as that brings people into large open plan areas where they could get lost if that's lots of smoke.
Stair well escape routes leading to the outside are the primary means of escape.

The rule of thumb, if there's an emergency exit sign and light over it, it shouldn't be key lockable.

The places I've been in haven't been unoccupied when i locked them up: tenants have 24x7 access and may or may not be in t heir offices when the place closes. The doors I locked had green emergency exit signs.

Del2005

ted1 wrote: »

Oh how I hate the word imagine , it gives people an excuse to talk rubbish.

The door is an emergency exit. Not s fire exit. A fire alarm would not go off during a gas leak, over crowding crush, terrorist attack , roof collapse etc

They would set off the fire alarm to get people to evacuate the building for any of those events, how else would they people know to leave. The fire alarm in a domestic building is a different beast entirely to a commercial premises.

Wheety

What did the bar man say when you brought this to his attention?