Rugby Europe International Championships

Galego

Georgia will play Italy this year so we will see where they stand. They did well against Wales in Cardiff.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-4891546/World-Rugby-approve-Georgia-Italy-showdown.html

irishbucsfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They have won the ENC every year bar 2 since 2006. They completely deserve a shot at playing Italy and other 6 nations sides and especially Italy to see if theyre ready to step up to the higher level.

Not only do Italy not play teams they can supposedly beat regularly, they've been artificially inflated by remaining in competitions they've so far had absolutely no business being part of.

You are completely correct really. Who knows where Italy and Georgia are in relation to one another, and who knows where they'd be if they were on a fair and equal playing field.

thebaz

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Soccer is huge in those countries, rugby isn't really popular at all.

I realise that - just find it strange they can't produce decent rugby teams , given ther populations - soccer and GAA are huge here , yet we with a relativly small population can produce a serious team - just thought rugby would suit other mainland European countrys - maybe it has no appeal - just an observation.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They have won the ENC every year bar 2 since 2006. They completely deserve a shot at playing Italy and other 6 nations sides and especially Italy to see if theyre ready to step up to the higher level.

Yeah, I'd like to see them play Italy too. But my point about the ranking system is valid, it doesn't properly reflect the gap between tiers. There's no real fix to that though. There's only so many fixtures that can be held outside RWC years and every nation wants to play teams above themselves.

ScrubsfanChris

Galego wrote: »

Georgia will play Italy this year so we will see where they stand. They did well against Wales in Cardiff.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-4891546/World-Rugby-approve-Georgia-Italy-showdown.html

Was reading about this just the other day. Could potentially be the biggest game in Georgian rugby history.

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

I realise that - just find it strange they can't produce decent rugby teams, given ther populations - soccer and GAA are huge here, yet we with a relativly small population can produce a serious team - just thought rugby would suit other mainland European countrys - maybe it has no appeal - just an observation.

Compare our playing population to theres. Ive family playing in Holland and Germany and the playing population is much much lower compared to ours. Soccer and gaelic/hurling are popular but in overall playing numbers how other sports are really challenging as well as through media coverage. The top sides are often full of overseas players. It may suit them but you need to build from bottom up and get more kids playing and progress then to adult level and getting people playing pro/setting up pro competition

I think the main concern is not Georgias ability but their location.

If it was a Spain type knocking on the door i think the potential to replace Italy would be greater.

How many would travel to Georgia for games?... the turnaround for players would horrendous. Horrible weather this time of year too.

Unfortunately for Georgia theyre a small country on the edge of Europe... until someone like Spain or Germany comes along Italy will have little to worry about.

thebaz

gilberto_eire wrote: »

I think the main concern is not Georgias ability but their location.

If it was a Spain type knocking on the door i think the potential to replace Italy would be greater.

How many would travel to Georgia for games?... the turnaround for players would horrendous. Horrible weather this time of year too.

Unfortunately for Georgia theyre a small country on the edge of Europe... until someone like Spain or Germany comes along Italy will have little to worry about.

if World rugby want to expand the game worldwide is ther any reason why Georgia are not given even one club for the Pro 14 ??

Surely they at least deserve that.

Burkie1203

Just to add to the conspiracy an Interview with a Samoan official from 2 or 3 weeks ago has surfaced were he apparently confirmed the dates of the playoff with spain.

Will link to it if I can find it as I only saw a screenshot on twitter

FCIM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Soccer is huge in those countries, rugby isn't really popular at all.

As someone who reads La Gazzetta dello Sport daily, I can honestly tell you that even when there is a Six Nations match, there is half a page at most of coverage. That comes after 20-25 pages of soccer, usually a couple on cycling, a few on volleyball, a couple on basketball, a couple on motorsport and often a couple on athletics including fencing. If that's how low down the pecking order rugby is in Italy as a Six Nations team, imagine what coverage is like in a lot of those other countries and coverage usually converts to interest. Given that La Gazzetta is the Milanese sports newspaper with Il Corriere dello Sport being from Roman and Tuttosport being from Turin, La Gazzetta's rugby coverage is probably the highest given Milan has more rugby interest than the other two. The Six Nations live coverage in Italy is also on Dmax, very much not a major broadcaster in Italy. A chance was missed with Romania in the eighties when the IRB should have done more to encourage rugby there and I suspect they'll miss the same boat with Georgia now, but outside Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland and France there is very little to go on in terms of rugby in Europe.

ScrubsfanChris

I think the geography argument is null especially with the South African teams in the pro14 now.
Georgias much bigger problem is money, I'm not sure they would have the funding to run a full time professional club team unless they were given serious financial help from world rugby. And until people see more of Gerogian rugby on tv (cough, six nations) that might nit happen

Eod100

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont think this incident sums up this level at all but of course doesnt look good at all.

Not really when they havent faced Georgia ever really. Who would be their best challengers by far

How would you judge that though? I don't think a 1 off game would decide it. I suppose fairest thing would be promotion relegation with lower tier European competition but not sure there is an appetite for that. Even talk of possible explanation of 6N to include USA but think that would be a bit daft

c.p.w.g.w

Eod100 wrote: »

How would you judge that though? I don't think a 1 off game would decide it. I suppose fairest thing would be promotion relegation with lower tier European competition but not sure there is an appetite for that. Even talk of possible explanation of 6N to include USA but think that would be a bit daft

It probably is a tad strange, but then look at the Rugby Championship in the SH...4 teams from 3 different continent(South America, Africa & Australia (Oceania)...

ArmaniJeanss

thebaz wrote: »

I realise that - just find it strange they can't produce decent rugby teams , given ther populations - soccer and GAA are huge here , yet we with a relativly small population can produce a serious team - just thought rugby would suit other mainland European countrys - maybe it has no appeal - just an observation.

These countries you mention like Germany or Sweden are also very good in world terms at basketball, icehockey, team handball, volleyball and a whole host of other sports that barely register a blip here.
We see rugby as something to aspire to become the best. They don't, and thus they logically allocate their sporting budgets and resources in a different direction.

Weather might be a factor as well, it's noticeable that the first 4 sports I thought of are indoor. Harsher winters probably lead to schools and local clubs being more naturally focused on indoor events for young people.

FCIM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

These countries you mention like Germany or Sweden are also very good in world terms at basketball, icehockey, team handball, volleyball and a whole host of other sports that barely register a blip here.
We see rugby as something to aspire to become the best. They don't, and thus they logically allocate their sporting budgets and resources in a different direction.

Weather might be a factor as well, it's noticeable that the first 4 sports I thought of are indoor. Harsher winters probably lead to schools and local clubs being more naturally focused on indoor events for young people.

In each case those sports are big those of the countries you mention. Some of the sports are big in some of the countries, others less so but between the group of nations you're talking about they all have a degree of popularity somewhere. Same with Italy being poor at rugby but mustering together decent basketball and volleyball teams. Both of those sports are popular in Italy, nowhere near as big as soccer but far bigger than rugby.

I suspect a problem Georgia will face is in terms of desire to travel there by the suits in charge. Is it really a coincidence that Romania with it's potential for a trip to Bucharest every two years was ignored whilst Italy, offering Rome, was picked up?

prawnsambo

FCIM wrote: »

I suspect a problem Georgia will face is in terms of desire to travel there by the suits in charge. Is it really a coincidence that Romania with it's potential for a trip to Bucharest every two years was ignored whilst Italy, offering Rome, was picked up?

Probably should have included the USA on that basis years ago. :rolleyes:

FCIM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Probably should have included the USA on that basis years ago. :rolleyes:

Tell me when, at any stage of history, the USA has produced similar rugby results to those of Romania or Italy :rolleyes:.

pixelburp

Correct me if I'm remembering the 1990s / early 2000s wrong, but I always got the impression that what changed the conversation re. Italy being admitted to the 5/6 Nations was them beating Ireland a couple of times - and France / Scotland too IIRC - which made it hard to ignore the requests to join at the top table.

I've always just presumed that until Georgia & Romania beat more than one of the top-tier nations in a short space of time, their position in European rugby's elite will always be kicked down the road for another few years.

FCIM

pixelburp wrote: »

Correct me if I'm remembering the 1990s / early 2000s wrong, but I always got the impression that what changed the conversation re. Italy being admitted to the 5/6 Nations was them beating Ireland a couple of times - and France / Scotland too IIRC - which made it hard to ignore the requests to join at the top table.

I've always just presumed that until Georgia & Romania beat more than one of the top-tier nations in a short space of time, their position in European rugby's elite will always be kicked down the road for another few years.

Romania had solid results against Wales, Scotland, Ireland and even New Zealand in the late seventies and eighties, even relatively hammering Wales on one occasion.

pixelburp

FCIM wrote: »

Romania had solid results against Wales, Scotland, Ireland and even New Zealand in the late seventies and eighties, even relatively hammering Wales on one occasion.

Solid results, as in close losses, or actual victories (Romania's heyday was before my time ), because I imagine the FIR had a much stronger hand once its team was demonstrably beating 5 nations teams with relative consistency.

I'm also presuming that Romania's political situation of it being a communist country (and a brutal one at that I believe) probably counted against any logistical restructuring of the tournament, good results or not.

FCIM

pixelburp wrote: »

Solid results, as in close losses, or actual victories (Romania's heyday was before my time ), because I imagine the FIR had a much stronger hand once its team was demonstrably beating 5 nations teams with relative consistency.

I'm also presuming that Romania's political situation of it being a communist country (and a brutal one at that I believe) probably counted against any logistical restructuring of the tournament, good results or not.

Beat Wales twice, hammering them once (24-6), unlucky not to beat them again when a Gareth Davies drop goal nicked the win at the death. Beat Scotland (the Grand Slam team of 1984) once, drew with Ireland, beat France twice, again once was a bit of a roasting and they managed to nil them too, 15-0). Pushed New Zealand close, 14-6 having two tries disallowed.

Chivito550

Why are the 6N so against the idea of a home and away 2 leg playoff between the bottom team of the 6N and the winners of the second tier? If the likes of Italy are good enough they should have nothing to worry about. But it will at least give lesser nations something to aspire to. I don’t agree with direct relegation, and I certainly don’t agree with kicking Italy out (they’ve had plenty of good results over the years, and they will again), but a 2 legged playoff is surely fair for all concerned.

Romania were incredibly strong in the 80s. They should have been admitted, but I guess the political landscape wasn’t exactly helping their cause.

Regarding the likes of Germany, I think Irish people often forget that there are so many other sports out there and that it doesn’t revolve around soccer, rugby and GAA. Germany were second in the Winter Olympics medal table for example. They excel in the summer games too, and are very strong at athletics (which is the most global sport out there, other than soccer). A lot of these European nations bag lots of medals at Olympics, World Championships and European Championships. Other nations our size like Croatia, Norway etc are winning medals too. We on the other hand don’t tend to win much, and are in general very poor at athletics right now, excluding the occasional talent like Thomas Barr, Mark English etc. I say this as a fanatical athletics man.

You can’t have it every way. Different countries will prioritize different sports. Not many prioritise rugby, hence the poor standard throughout most of Europe.

irishbucsfan

2 leg playoffs are a bad idea, I don't like them in rugby at all. The sport does not suit 2 leg games, scoring is too uneven depending on too many external factors. Think its bad enough that they're used as it is, would prefer they don't add them to the 6 Nations.

Make it a neutral venue or else give it to the 6 Nations team to host.

swiwi_

The Romanian dictator was a big fan of rugby. Once the iron curtain fell Romanian rugby became less strong there. They definitely had some very respectable results in the 1980s

FCIM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

2 leg playoffs are a bad idea, I don't like them in rugby at all. The sport does not suit 2 leg games, scoring is too uneven depending on too many external factors. Think its bad enough that they're used as it is, would prefer they don't add them to the 6 Nations.

Make it a neutral venue or else give it to the 6 Nations team to host.

The problem is the fear that one of the big five would finish bottom and there'd be a freak result which would have devastating effects on revenue. I agree 2 legs doesn't suit rugby though.

prawnsambo

FCIM wrote: »

Tell me when, at any stage of history, the USA has produced similar rugby results to those of Romania or Italy :rolleyes:.

Oh sorry, I thought we were picking contenders based on which wee the best holiday destinations. :P

Stephen Hawkins football boots

The Belgium v Spain game shouldn't be replayed, there is noway to prove a fix. It can be said that the ref just had a bad game. If it is replayed it should be minus the players who approached the ref after.

These tier 2 nations need to know this is unacceptable , like you hear loud booing from Georgian fans.No place for it in Rugby

FCIM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Oh sorry, I thought we were picking contenders based on which wee the best holiday destinations. :P

My point was that Romania at one point had as strong a claim for entering the Five Nations as Italy did when it joined the Six Nations. I might be wrong and call me cynical if you want, but I'm sure the fact that visiting Rome is far more desirable for most people than visiting Bucharest wasn't off the list of reasons.

thebaz

Stephen Hawkins football boots wrote: »

These tier 2 nations need to know this is unacceptable , like you hear loud booing from Georgian fans.No place for it in Rugby

I think the passion of the Georgian fans is great , think it would add something to the mix - French fans are neither renowned for silence.

titan18

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

I think the geography argument is null especially with the South African teams in the pro14 now.
Georgias much bigger problem is money, I'm not sure they would have the funding to run a full time professional club team unless they were given serious financial help from world rugby. And until people see more of Gerogian rugby on tv (cough, six nations) that might nit happen

Georgia Rugby are bankrolled by a billionaire. He's one of the richest people involved in rugby and ex-Georgian prime minister. Money isn't an issue for them at all. Main issue is location and it not being a huge TV audience for the 6 nations to grow into. If this was Germany or Spain, they'd be welcomed in with open arms imo.

thelad95

I’ve watched videos detailing the amount of what could be construed as ‘biased’ decisions and I have to say it does not look good on the referees part.

The thing is Spain would have known from a few days out who the referee was. The time to create a fuss was then, not after the fact. There’s nothing that can be done now really unless the ref comes out and says outright that he fixed the result or indeed if Belgium themselves offer a replay.

Neither of which will realistically happen unfortunately.

If I was the Belgian players, I would nearly want a replay, hammer Spain and then proceed with a clear conscience.

Galego

Lads,,,,,watch the video in the link.
Mad stuff.....that is the Romanian ref.....
https://www.elconfidencial.com/deportes/rugby/2018-03-22/vlad-iordachescu-arbitro-rumania-espana-belgica_1539671/

prawnsambo

thelad95 wrote: »

I’ve watched videos detailing the amount of what could be construed as ‘biased’ decisions and I have to say it does not look good on the referees part.

The thing is Spain would have known from a few days out who the referee was. The time to create a fuss was then, not after the fact. There’s nothing that can be done now really unless the ref comes out and says outright that he fixed the result or indeed if Belgium themselves offer a replay.

Neither of which will realistically happen unfortunately.

If I was the Belgian players, I would nearly want a replay, hammer Spain and then proceed with a clear conscience.

Spain made complaints about the match officials at least a month before the match. They were ignored.

irishbucsfan

thelad95 wrote: »

I’ve watched videos detailing the amount of what could be construed as ‘biased’ decisions and I have to say it does not look good on the referees part.

The thing is Spain would have known from a few days out who the referee was. The time to create a fuss was then, not after the fact. There’s nothing that can be done now really unless the ref comes out and says outright that he fixed the result or indeed if Belgium themselves offer a replay.

Neither of which will realistically happen unfortunately.

If I was the Belgian players, I would nearly want a replay, hammer Spain and then proceed with a clear conscience.

Spain did create a fuss in the days before. They made a complaint to Rugby Europe that was dismissed.

FACECUTTR

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Spain did create a fuss in the days before. They made a complaint to Rugby Europe that was dismissed.

Dismissed by a Romanian official too which adds to the farce.

molloyjh

Not sure if this has been posted already, and it could have been an honest mistake, but why were Somoa announcing games against Spain for RWC qualification on March 1st?

http://sobserver.ws/en/02_03_2018/rugby/30649/Manu-Samoa-gears-up-for-World-Cup-qualification.htm

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

Not sure if this has been posted already, and it could have been an honest mistake, but why were Somoa announcing games against Spain for RWC qualification on March 1st?

http://sobserver.ws/en/02_03_2018/rugby/30649/Manu-Samoa-gears-up-for-World-Cup-qualification.htm

I assume Romania told them.

Podge_irl

Stephen Hawkins football boots wrote: »

These tier 2 nations need to know this is unacceptable , like you hear loud booing from Georgian fans.No place for it in Rugby

Have you never been to a game in France

Irish crowds don't have a bloody monopoly on how rugby is supposed to be watched.

The Lost Sheep

Looks like another scandal/issue coming up
This time an ineligible player involved in a game for Belgium
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/03/25/belgium-face-ineligible-player-charge-in-world-cup-qualifier/

c.p.w.g.w

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Looks like another scandal/issue coming up
This time an ineligible player involved in a game for Belgium
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/03/25/belgium-face-ineligible-player-charge-in-world-cup-qualifier/

Surely that is perfect, WR should just awards 5 points to all teams who played them in this year's competition for the purpose of Europe 1 spot. Fixes all their problems

Awesomeness

http://www.the42.ie/world-rugby-review-rugby-europe-mess-3942629-Apr2018/

World rugby doing a review into the cluster**** that is the rugby europe championships. What a mess

ScrubsfanChris

At least a rematch should take place according to World Rugby.
That is assuming Spain didn't field any ineligible players in which case they get disquilified, something Romania and Belgium are accused of doing also, then amazingly Germany could qualify for the RWC.

Tis mad

Bridge93

If Germany qualify its as much a farce as the others. They'll lose 200-0 to everyone

.ak

Surely they should just decide based on which fans are the best craic and who'll buy the most tickets?

errlloyd

Bridge93 wrote: »

If Germany qualify its as much a farce as the others. They'll lose 200-0 to everyone

I wonder what would happen if Germany qualified. German rugby is in a mess right now, but at the snap of his fingers HPW could sort it all out again.

connemara man

.ak wrote: »

Surely they should just decide based on which fans are the best craic and who'll buy the most tickets?

so two irish teams

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

If Germany qualify its as much a farce as the others. They'll lose 200-0 to everyone

they wouldnt lose by that much and it wouldnt be as much a farce

errlloyd wrote: »

I wonder what would happen if Germany qualified. German rugby is in a mess right now, but at the snap of his fingers HPW could sort it all out again.

Im not sure he would. German rugby is a mess because of HPW who wanted constitutional changes to German union for him to continue funding things

.ak

connemara man wrote: »

so two irish teams

Interesting idea.

If we had an Ireland A team in our pool, could they cause an upset, against us?

connemara man

.ak wrote: »

Interesting idea.

If we had an Ireland A team in our pool, could they cause an upset, against us?

Let's just put the wolfhounds into all these competitions and see

prawnsambo

Five of the Spanish players got lengthy bans for attacking the Romanian referee in the now infamous qualification match. Scrum half got the highest ban at 43 weeks, another guy got 36 weeks and the other three got 14 weeks each.