The Irish Prison Service needs more women and ethnic minorities.

THE IRISH PRISON service is in dire need of more women and ethnic minorities to work as prison officers across the country.
Right now, there are just over 3,000 people working in the system – most of them are white men – something which prison bosses want to see change in the coming months. - THEJOURNAL.IE


Excuse the pun but colour me shocked that most of the staff in an Irish male dominated profession are white males! That's just lazy writing.


The style of the piece is also pretty ridiculous in that they can almost factually say the service is in ''dire need'' of more women and ethnic minorities. What do they base this on? What dire need is this? I myself work in the service and have never heard this clamor for diversity or heard of a need for it. There are diversity training programmes we undertake and that's for the betterment of the service but surely this is basically affirmative action being called for? Why not just have the best person for the job regardless of race or gender? Quotas are foolish and they actually undermine people who succeed but probably aren't getting there on merit. There are staff from various backgrounds already and they're in the job because they applied like everyone else and got through because they impressed. Is there a need to effectively openly advertise for non-white men? Is it ethically sound or even legal!?



What's your thoughts?

DEFTLEFTHAND

I understand it's an open competition. Let the best and most capable candidates for the role get the job, rergardless of race, sex, background etc.

The only thing quotas do is breed mediocrity .

The_Valeyard

Omackeral wrote: »

That's just lazy writing.

Its Thejournal.ie


Its all lazy writing, copy pasted or agenda pieces.

The lastest whinge fest of the journal and their teenage journalists....who actually subscribes to their nonsense

Wisesmurf

90+% of workplace deaths are men. The vast majority of primary school teachers are women.

I'm sick of balancing job gender ratios for the sake of it. In Sweden where they have social parity decades ahead of many of the rest of Europe they have many of the same gender dominant jobs as here.

professore

They really want more women with murderers and rapists? What could possibly go wrong???

Noveight

An article in which logic and common sense is overrun by a need to pander to the vocal minority. Best ignore it.

cantdecide

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I understand it's an open competition. Let the best and most capable candidates for the role get the job, rergardless of race, sex, background etc.

The only thing quotas do is breed mediocrity .

But it's the current year.

I wonder if Citybins or Panda Waste are gonna look for more ladies to pick up the wheelie-bins in their next recruitment drive!? Has anyone ever seen a female collector or a binwoman if that's what they'd be called?

If you're talking about Travellers, they don't dominate the prison population at all. They're most definitely over represented as a group when compared with their numbers in wider society alright but when it comes to strictly prison figures, they're a minority still.

punisher5112

So with the new recruitment drive will they be placing more space for women and blacks?


Women are starting to take many high ranking positions.

Look at rte, nta, many many other government departments and so on.

I've no issue at all with them being there and in those positions but the crying all the time about equal rights etc etc.... I think it's starting to go way too far with all the rubbish been thrown out there

Victor

From here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-jails-home-to-prisoners-of-66-nationalities-1.2892735 it seems that there are only 21 non-Irish prison officers out of more than 3,000 prisoner officers.

Omackeral wrote: »

The style of the piece is also pretty ridiculous in that they can almost factually say the service is in ''dire need'' of more women and ethnic minorities.

Maybe they are. With relatively few women in the service, those officers will have to do all of certain activities, e.g. searches of female prisoners. If foreign prisoners see that there are essentially only white, Irish, male offices, might they not get the impression that the system is inherently biased? Are the current officers able to converse in the languages of all prisoners? Are officers familiar with the nuances of prisoners background cultures - at one point foreign prisoners asked that something other than potatoes be served 7 days a week, which resulted in cost savings?

What do they base this on?

Them being the management of the Prison Service?

surely this is basically affirmative action being called for?

Or countering a stacked system?

Why not just have the best person for the job regardless of race or gender?

Your impression of the best person and someone else's might differ.

Maybe officer X is middling as a prison officer, but speaks even basic Polish or Brazilian Portuguese and can create a rapport with prisoners than results in an overall safer, more compliant prison regime? Maybe officer Y is an excellent search officer, but society's rules say he shouldn't be doing intimate exams on female prisoners or general searches of visitors?

Quotas ... undermine people who succeed but probably aren't getting there on merit.

Did that come out right?

Is there a need to effectively openly advertise for non-white men?

It seems so.

Is it ethically sound or even legal!?

If there is an operational need that can't be filled from the typical applicants or to counter past discrimination, then yes.

punisher5112

Why pander to non nationals though???

It's an Irish prison on Irish soil.

I firmly believe we should be similar in how the likes of France & Germany run things in so far as their own citizens may only apply and get said jobs.

If the non nationals feel hard done by then don't do the crime exactly the same way I put it to our own citizens, if they don't like it then choose another direction in life.

Victor

[/QUOTE]Your pants are on fire: http://www.irishprisons.ie/wp-content/uploads/documents_pdf/snap_nationality_profile_-2007_2014.pdf - 87-89% are Irish. Some of the foreign committals will be for immigration issues.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Why pander to non nationals though???

It's an operational need, not pandering.

I firmly believe we should be similar in how the likes of France & Germany run things in so far as their own citizens may only apply and get said jobs.

You might have heard of the EU and the right to move and work in other countries? We can work there, they can work here.

If the non nationals feel hard done by then don't do the crime

You might have noticed this is about prison officers, not prisoners.

professore wrote: »

They really want more women with murderers and rapists? What could possibly go wrong???

What if those murderers and rapists are female murderers and rapists? Or what if they are just female shop-lifters?

Not gonna get into a tit for tat multiquote war with you Victor but some of your points I do take. As far as the language goes, what happens if there's a Brazilian inmate but no Portuguese speaking staff? Do we hire one specifically just for him? Do we hire one officer for every conceivable language there is? If we get a Vietnamese guy in and there's staff who speak Russian, Arabic and Finnish but not Vietnamese, he's gonna feel even more isolated.

Another point you touched on was ''are officers familiar with backgrounds and cultures''. They are trained to be more and more, there's been a strong push in academia and diversity the last ten years. Kosher and Halal diets are catered for, things like that. You don't necessarily need a Jewish or Muslim chef to prepare those meals.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The whole language thing is a nonsense. Presumably people who live here have English.

Ever notice that it’s always fairly low level jobs that get attacked for privilege. When are we going to see a reform of the judiciary so it isn’t just a coterie of south side cabals letting serious criminals off the hook because crime doesn’t affect the millionaire suburbs.

When can we expect to see RTÉ employees not plucked from a random sample of people 100 yards from from ballsbridge. Etc.

thebull85

punisher5112 wrote: »

Why pander to non nationals though???

It's an Irish prison on Irish soil.

I firmly believe we should be similar in how the likes of France & Germany run things in so far as their own citizens may only apply and get said jobs.

If the non nationals feel hard done by then don't do the crime exactly the same way I put it to our own citizens, if they don't like it then choose another direction in life.

But the poor non nationals they shouldnt be put through that.

hatrickpatrick

Has anyone here ever read The Giver, by Lois Lowry? I'm convinced that, whether they realise it or not, this is the end-game these identity politics gobsh!tes would create if they had the chance. A world which manages to achieve perfect "harmony" by obliterating the entire concepts of creativity, freedom of choice, and random chance. The book describes a world in which everything from the weather, to what careers people end up with, to who people form relationships with, is decided upon by a committee, because the possibility that people could make 'wrong' choices and upset the perfect balance of harmony is too terrifying for the citizens. They've even genetically engineered people to no longer be able to perceive colour or music, so that there can be no potential for people choosing clothes which don't match, or sounds which don't go well together.

In the book, they basically justify the total absence of randomness, variance and unpredictability ("sameness") by pointing out that there are no wars, no arguments between people, no suffering. But essentially it boils down to "you can't feel pain if you can't feel any emotion at all, but ultimately that also means you can't feel happiness or pleasure either".

Obviously the book is hyperbolic science fiction, but some of these muppets who are trying to abolish the very concept of gender and strive for a perfect balance of every single demographic in every single field, regardless of the choices people actually make about what they want to do with their lives, are disturbingly familiar to me as someone who was fascinated by this book as a kid. They'd happily abolish the orgasm for everyone if it meant no more sexual misconduct by anyone, and they'd happily live in a world in which people are "assigned" to jobs and careers rather than choosing them, if that meant ensuring that there was no possibility of any demographic imbalances anywhere in society. It's insane.

From Wiki:

The novel follows a 12-year-old boy named Jonas. The society has taken away pain and strife by converting to "Sameness", a plan that has also eradicated emotional depth from their lives. Jonas is selected to inherit the position of Receiver of Memory, the person who stores all the past memories of the time before Sameness, as there may be times where one must draw upon the wisdom gained from history to aid the community's decision making. Jonas struggles with concepts of all the new emotions and things introduced to him: whether they are inherently good, evil, or in between, and whether it is even possible to have one without the other. The Community lacks any color, memory, climate, or terrain, all in an effort to preserve structure, order, and a true sense of equality beyond personal individuality.

harry Bailey esq

Omackeral wrote: »

THE IRISH PRISON service is in dire need of more women and ethnic minorities to work as prison officers across the country.
Right now, there are just over 3,000 people working in the system – most of them are white men – something which prison bosses want to see change in the coming months. - THEJOURNAL.IE


Excuse the pun but colour me shocked that most of the staff in an Irish male dominated profession are white males! That's just lazy writing.


The style of the piece is also pretty ridiculous in that they can almost factually say the service is in ''dire need'' of more women and ethnic minorities. What do they base this on? What dire need is this? I myself work in the service and have never heard this clamor for diversity or heard of a need for it. There are diversity training programmes we undertake and that's for the betterment of the service but surely this is basically affirmative action being called for? Why not just have the best person for the job regardless of race or gender? Quotas are foolish and they actually undermine people who succeed but probably aren't getting there on merit. There are staff from various backgrounds already and they're in the job because they applied like everyone else and got through because they impressed. Is there a need to effectively openly advertise for non-white men? Is it ethically sound or even legal!?



What's your thoughts?

PC gone mad. Your a screw, I've been an inmate. Apart from the odd nutcase on both sides, I always found that there was always some mutual respect.

Richard Hillman

Not many groupings at the Journal? You have white liberal men and white liberal women. Where are their diversity quotas?

Roger Hassenforder

Is it a hospitality or a prison service we're running?

dr.fuzzenstein

I think there should be a quota system from school.
Take all available jobs, be that graphic designer, CEO, binman, car mechanic, baker, plumber, builder, etc... and divide equally between the sexes.
That way we can ensure an exact 50/50 split. If they want it or not is irrelevant, it's equality after all.
Being against equality is worse than being racist.
We must force equality on people at all cost.

Bob Harris

Omackeral wrote: »

THE IRISH PRISON service is in dire need of more women and ethnic minorities to work as prison officers across the country.

Excuse the pun but colour me shocked that most of the staff in an Irish male dominated profession are white males! That's just lazy writing.


What's your thoughts?

I'm afraid I have to take issue with your use of the word writing when referring to the article.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Maybe they are. With relatively few women in the service, those officers will have to do all of certain activities, e.g. searches of female prisoners.

Which is a fair enough point. I can certainly understand that.

If foreign prisoners see that there are essentially only white, Irish, male offices, might they not get the impression that the system is inherently biased?

This. I don't really get this. Ireland is mostly a country of white people, and it makes logical sense that the majority of guards would be white. But it seems like its our skin colour that's at issue here... There's plenty of white European nationals in Ireland. Are they being encouraged to join the prison service?

And while there's definitely been an increase in the numbers of non-white people living in Ireland, the numbers are rather low in comparison with the white population. When those numbers are higher, then it makes sense to question why the numbers of non-whites in the prison service. Although I suspect it's more down to pay and work type than anything else. They don't want this kind of work.

I know a family from Sudan here. The parents work their own store, and their four children have graduated within the last few years. One is a doctor, another an engineer, a programmer with google, and lastly, a primary school teacher. All jobs with a better social standing or reputation than being a prison guard.

TBH this spacks of more of these "quotas" but now based on ethnicity/race than solely on the female gender. If non-white or women are interested in becoming guards, but aren't succeeding, then it's worth finding out if there's discrimination against them... but without discrimination being present, then you're setting up a system of discrimination against white men who are interested in such a role.

Are the current officers able to converse in the languages of all prisoners? Are officers familiar with the nuances of prisoners background cultures - at one point foreign prisoners asked that something other than potatoes be served 7 days a week, which resulted in cost savings?

I personally don't see why they would have to be. Ireland is a predominately English speaking country. I'm sure if the prisoner hasn't bothered to learn English (or Irish) while living here, we wouldn't have too much issue with extraditing them back to their home country. Just to make them more comfortable.

silverharp

its basically Irish buzzfeed, at least they get creamed in the comments, their "jurnos" must go home crying every night

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I think there should be a quota system from school.
Take all available jobs, be that graphic designer, CEO, binman, car mechanic, baker, plumber, builder, etc... and divide equally between the sexes.
That way we can ensure an exact 50/50 split. If they want it or not is irrelevant, it's equality after all.
Being against equality is worse than being racist.
We must force equality on people at all cost.

Unless you're in a minority or female, in which case, higher than 50 split is perfectly fine. It's just if there's a majority of males or white males, then we need the quotas enforced. But also only in job areas, that minorities or women actually want to work in.

Better yet, let's take all the jobs that nobody wants and force men into them. That way the more desirable jobs are available for women and minorities. That's a clear move towards equality then. But just the first step. More ways to enforce equality later.

dr.fuzzenstein

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unless you're in a minority or female, in which case, higher than 50 split is perfectly fine. It's just if there's a majority of males or white males, then we need the quotas enforced. But also only in job areas, that minorities or women actually want to work in.

Better yet, let's take all the jobs that nobody wants and force men into them. That way the more desirable jobs are available for women and minorities. That's a clear move towards equality then. But just the first step. More ways to enforce equality later.

Yep, equality where it suits.
I'm looking forward to more women in IT and other tech jobs.
After all, they're safe, clean, office based and should be ideal for women.
IT workers will welcome it with open arms. No really, we want more women. It's a wiener-fest.
Funnily enough there's about 1% of women working tech jobs.
Either those evil men in suits don't want them there, or maybe..., no, I couldn't possibly suggest women suck at tech jobs.
That would be sexist.
I have found though, talk about computers to any woman and her eyes glaze over, she will throw her head back and make exasperated snoring noises.
I, there couldn't, surely it can't be, dare I suggest that there are some biological differences between men and women?
/takes cover

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yep, equality where it suits.
I'm looking forward to more women in IT and other tech jobs.
After all, they're safe, clean, office based and should be ideal for women.
IT workers will welcome it with open arms. No really, we want more women. It's a wiener-fest.
Funnily enough there's about 1% of women working tech jobs.
Either those evil men in suits don't want them there, or maybe..., no, I couldn't possibly suggest women suck at tech jobs.
That would be sexist.
I have found though, talk about computers to any woman and her eyes glaze over, she will throw her head back and make exasperated snoring noises.
I, there couldn't, surely it can't be, dare I suggest that there are some biological differences between men and women?
/takes cover

Well, there have been periods when the numbers of women in IT/Programming were higher, however, I suspect they didn't enjoy the excessive hours when a deadline is approaching.

I wouldn't think there are any gender-related barriers (biological or otherwise) in IT. It's only a male-dominated area because women aren't terribly interested in doing it. Most of the women I know who have studied programming or computer science, did it so that they could take management roles or enter a different industry which prized certain skills like database analytics.

Triceratops Ballet

Does the IPS have gender quotas in place?

As most people said prison guard is perceived as a "male" job so probably doesn't get as many women applying. They may need women for functional reasons, they may want women to stop self excluding from the application process, so they team up with the papers to write a piece that says the IPS accepts applications for this job from all sectors of the community. As long as good candidates aren't excluded on the basis of a gender quota what's the problem?

Iseedeadpixels

No harm in having a few more 6 foot 5 lads called Vladamir in these prisons :pac:

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I actually applied for a job in the prison service when I was 19. Luckily it didn’t work out for me.

punisher5112

Here is a shot of what it's about.
http://www.thejournal.ie/prison-officers-3848207-Feb2018/

I have no idea what this thread is about. IT was founded by women. Half our IT dept is women. What has that to do with prison service. Surely they want women working in the female prisons? Is that it?

professore

Victor wrote: »

What if those murderers and rapists are female murderers and rapists? Or what if they are just female shop-lifters?

That's an easy one. There are far more of men in prison for these crimes than women. So having a 50/50 split makes no sense. Have women work in women's prisons - that makes sense. Having them working in men's prisons in day to day contact with male prisoners, especially in a security capacity is not a good idea.

Whatever about non-nationals (hate that word) there is a case to be made for that to be split based on population. e..g 10% eastern europeans in prison = 10% eastern european prison guards (no idea if this is the correct stat - just an example)

professore

professore wrote: »

Whatever about non-nationals (hate that word) there is a case to be made for that to be split based on population. e..g 10% eastern europeans in prison = 10% eastern european prison guards (no idea if this is the correct stat - just an example)

Why cater to the criminals like that? By saying 10% of the workforce must be from a certain background, you're ironically actively discriminating. Let the Eastern Europeans apply for all 100% of the positions just like everyone else. If they have what it takes, welcome aboard. There are new recruits at present who have done just this as it happens.

Travellers make up a significant enough portion of the prison numbers when contested to their numbers in wider society. What do we do there? Do we match their numbers in the jails or do we crunch some numbers and find a medium? We'll also have to get all these new recruits through a 3rd level qualification and stringent vetting process.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

Why cater to the criminals like that? By saying 10% of the workforce must be from a certain background, you're ironically actively discriminating. Let the Eastern Europeans apply for all 100% of the positions just like everyone else. If they have what it takes, welcome aboard. There are new recruits at present who have done just this as it happens.

Travellers make up a significant enough portion of the prison numbers when contested to their numbers in wider society. What do we do there? Do we match their numbers in the jails or do we crunch some numbers and find a medium? We'll also have to get all these new recruits through a 3rd level qualification and stringent vetting process.

Some gesture seems to be needed to show that there is no discrimination in play (regardless of if there is no actual discrimination). That most people don't want that job (in comparison to others) isn't a valid reason.

Well that I get. I mean if they were to say "hey, we want people from all genders and nationalities to apply" I'd have zero issue with that. Absolutely none. Call out for them to throw their hat in if they think they have what it takes.

It's the language of "we are in dire need of more ethnic prison guards and women" and the needless statement that it's mostly white Irish men working there that smacks of an agenda. Is that the journal.ie talking or twisting the point a bit? I'm not too familiar with their articles (stumbled across this one), would they be of a more liberal/left wing viewpoint?

The Rape of Lucretia

This is a positive step though long over due. We do now live in an age of equality, and if women and ethnic minorities are under represented in our prisons, then it is up to the courts to move with times and convict more women and minorities. The law and judges tend to be very conservative and protective of their ways though, and it will probably need legislation to ensure they are forced to change, and increase the women prisoner population to something approaching equality with the male one.
Fair play to the Prison Service for getting the ball rolling nonetheless.

Victor

professore wrote: »

That's an easy one. There are far more of men in prison for these crimes than women. So having a 50/50 split makes no sense.

Nobody is suggesting a 50:50 split.

dr.fuzzenstein

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is a positive step though long over due. We do now live in an age of equality, and if women and ethnic minorities are under represented in our prisons, then it is up to the courts to move with times and convict more women and minorities. The law and judges tend to be very conservative and protective of their ways though, and it will probably need legislation to ensure they are forced to change, and increase the women prisoner population to something approaching equality with the male one.
Fair play to the Prison Service for getting the ball rolling nonetheless.

Maybe there should be inmate quotas. If 90% men get convicted, we need a law that ensures that for every man a woman also has to be thrown in the slammer.
Otherwise someone could claim that women only want equality in management, the boardroom and other juicy, high-value positions, instead of wanting to be equally represented in all aspects of life. But that would just be silly.
Can't wait for my garage to employ 50% female mechanics.
After all, it is completely unacceptable that we allow ourselves to think that there are any differences between men and women.

Koala Sunshine

There should be more women in prison, all things equal women are more likely to avoid prison for the same crime than men. Studies show this is a consistent finding across jurisdictions all over the world.

pleas advice

professore wrote: »

Whatever about non-nationals (hate that word) there is a case to be made for that to be split based on population. e..g 10% eastern europeans in prison = 10% eastern european prison guards (no idea if this is the correct stat - just an example)

good thinking, theres a source of employment for our own ethnic minority

hatrickpatrick

bluewolf wrote: »

I have no idea what this thread is about. IT was founded by women. Half our IT dept is women. What has that to do with prison service. Surely they want women working in the female prisons? Is that it?

If it was for practical reasons that'd make total sense, but it seems to be more another prong of the ideological "perfect symmetry and demographic representation in literally every single group of humans, ever - despite what those people actually want" ridiculousness.

silverharp

pleas advice wrote: »

good thinking, theres a source of employment for our own ethnic minority

dr.fuzzenstein

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If it was for practical reasons that'd make total sense, but it seems to be more another prong of the ideological "perfect symmetry and demographic representation in literally every single group of humans, ever - despite what those people actually want" ridiculousness.

Except you will never see feminists or the usual "outraged on behalf of someone else" brigade protest for gender quotas for binmen, miners, car mechanics, oil workers or other assorted dirty and dangerous jobs.
They only seem to want equality in managerial positions and the boardroom.

I do see this "article" as a bit of an oddity. If it even exists. I searched for any combination of words to do with prison, equality, journal.ie, etc... but can't find anything that fits.

Anyone have a link to the actual article? I'd say it got pulled after women complained (prison guard? Let's not go nuts with this equality malarkey now!)

muppetshow1451

Why cant Ireland do as Norway,rent a prison in Holland or UK,and send them there,they have loads of women and people with ethnic background,problem solved.

DEFTLEFTHAND

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Except you will never see feminists or the usual "outraged on behalf of someone else" brigade protest for gender quotas for binmen, miners, car mechanics, oil workers or other assorted dirty and dangerous jobs.
They only seem to want equality in managerial positions and the boardroom.

Could an argument be made though that in general and I stress in general women are not physically suited to these roles?

dr.fuzzenstein

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Could an argument be made though that in general and I stress in general women are not physically suited to these roles?

That is precisely the argument I am making.

muppetshow1451

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Could an argument be made though that in general and I stress in general women are not physically suited to these roles?

I am pretty sure women are ment for female prisoners and men are for male prisoners.

Triceratops Ballet

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Except you will never see feminists or the usual "outraged on behalf of someone else" brigade protest for gender quotas for binmen, miners, car mechanics, oil workers or other assorted dirty and dangerous jobs.
They only seem to want equality in managerial positions and the boardroom.

I do see this "article" as a bit of an oddity. If it even exists. I searched for any combination of words to do with prison, equality, journal.ie, etc... but can't find anything that fits.

Anyone have a link to the actual article? I'd say it got pulled after women complained (prison guard? Let's not go nuts with this equality malarkey now!)

It's real, if you searched the entire quote it's the first result. http://www.thejournal.ie/mountjoy-prison-3844007-Feb2018/

It's not feminists making the point, it's the Irish Prison Service. They've decided they want to appeal to women in their current recruitment drive and have decided to point out that it's not only a mans job. Nobody is calling for gender quotas here so you can calm down

DEFTLEFTHAND

muppetshow1451 wrote: »

I am pretty sure women are ment for female prisoners and men are for male prisoners.

No I was referring to the jobs referenced in the post I quoted not Prison Officers.