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How do people get rich?

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 125 ✭✭Koala Sunshine


    Benefiting from technological growth isn’t the same as wealth. My house is smaller than a medieval kings stables. As for my staff - nonexistent.

    Technological growth brings wealth, you may not have staff, but you have smartphones, HD TV, better medical services, better, cheaper food etc. Could the king travel across the Atlantic ocean in a matter of hours?

    People simply don't understand what wealth is and how it is created.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 125 ✭✭Koala Sunshine


    By the way, as regards bitcoin, an old gambler once told me, 'When everybody's at it, everybody loses their shirt.'

    now he was talking about horse racing tips but i look at bitcoin the same. once every tom dick and harry, even morons i know that couldn't even switch a computer on, are talking about it, I think the gold rush is about to run dry.

    Cryptocurrencies have the potential to become ubuiqitous with the potential of smart contracts, we could still be in the very early days. If the major financial institutions systems base their payment systems on smart contacts built on blockchain, prices could skyrocket. There is still potential there to become very wealthy indeed from crypto.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Technological growth brings wealth, you may not have staff, but you have smartphones, HD TV, better medical services, better, cheaper food etc. Could the king travel across the Atlantic ocean in a matter of hours?

    People simply don't understand what wealth is and how it is created.

    That’s not wealth. That’s technological growth. By your definition a sub Saharan African is richer than a medieval king.

    So your last sentence is correct.

    In any case we are talking about the present day rich. Not the past. Not the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Cryptocurrencies have the potential to become ubuiqitous with the potential of smart contracts, we could still be in the very early days. If the major financial institutions systems base their payment systems on smart contacts built on blockchain, prices could skyrocket. There is still potential there to become very wealthy indeed from crypto.

    The technology might become ubiquitous- it’s open source though. Or it may not. Some people think it is solving a non existent problem. The coins don’t matter to that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,977 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    People simply don't understand what wealth is and how it is created.


    Thankfully we ve figured out how to evenly distributed this new found wealth!


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 125 ✭✭Koala Sunshine


    That’s not wealth. That’s technological growth. By your definition a sub Saharan African is richer than a medieval king.

    So your last severance is correct.

    In any case we are talking about the present day rich. Not the past. Not the future.

    Technological growth brings wealth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Technological growth brings wealth.

    You are not as wealthy as the guy who built Versailles.

    And it’s totally irrelevant if you were to the subject at hand.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 125 ✭✭Koala Sunshine


    You are not as wealthy as the guy who built Versailles.

    And it’s totally irrelevant if you were to the subject at hand.

    It is relevant to understanding what wealth is.

    A "poor" person in Ireland has sccess to herbs and spices the kings of 400 years ago could only dream of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    It is relevant to understanding what wealth is.

    A "poor" person in Ireland has sccess to herbs and spices the kings of 400 years ago could only dream of.

    How far does this logic go? are we all richer than the richest people in the 80s? The 90s? The 2000s? Every time a new technology is created do we automatically become richer than every rich person who lived before the technology? Does my iPhone make me richer than the Koch brothers in 2006?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,977 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    A "poor" person in Ireland has sccess to herbs and spices the kings of 400 years ago could only dream of.


    The key word in your statement is 'access', there's a big difference between people gaining 'access' to goods and services, and people gaining wealth, i.e. this is where we re fooling ourselves, we re not actually wealthier by gaining access to these goods and services, we ve just gained access to them, and it's becoming clearly obvious where the actual wealth is ending up!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Rezident


    By being cute - load of the lads are working in Oz, except one of the lads, always a cute hoor, organised jobs for a few of them. Very kind of him, except what they don't know is that he's actually sub-contracting them to the company so he's getting paid more than what they're getting paid, and they're doing the work!

    He also picked up a few houses cheap after the crash in Limerick - has an estate agent doing all the work and dealing with all the hassle on them, and he's still making 10k a year on them for doing nothing (other than having the initial plan and taking the calculated risk of course).

    I wish I had the balls and planning to do that, I just got lucky on bitcoin. The main personality trait that is seems to come down to is: conscientiousness - being ultra-organised and planning ahead, in a nutshell.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭jobless


    I don't think bitcoin is a good bet right now, that's simply because there are other superior cryptocurrencies which are a better long term bet. Now is a great time to buy some of the promising cryptocurrenciesas as markets are down.

    superior cryptocurrencies?... which ones?.... most of them are large promises which arent around a wet week...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 125 ✭✭Koala Sunshine


    How far does this logic go? are we all richer than the richest people in the 80s? The 90s? The 2000s? Every time a new technology is created do we automatically become richer than every rich person who lived before the technology? Does my iPhone make me richer than the Koch brothers in 2006?

    No not the 90's or 2000's, you have to balance everything up.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 125 ✭✭Koala Sunshine


    jobless wrote: »
    superior cryptocurrencies?... which ones?.... most of them are large promises which arent around a wet week...

    Ethereum, Neo, Waltoncoin, ICX, IOTA etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Bigus


    bear1 wrote: »
    The way things are going for me recently I suspect I'll never be rich enough to treat my family the way they should.
    Took a bad hit in 2017 which has just dominoed it's way since.
    Since mid January I've clocked up roughly 40 hours of overtime just to get more cash in.
    Sadly This won't keep happening as I'm not able for the 60 hour weeks and Saturday work for much longer so I've decided to go down the drastic option of selling one of our cars and downgrade to an older more basic car to free up some cash or worst case scenario we become a 1 car household and I take the bus.
    It can be very depressing but we have to soldier on.
    Baby 2 on the way soon so I want to get the finances back as quick as possible.
    Have a potential new job prospect with jp which could net me 40% more net pay a month so that would be a good start.. if I get it.
    If not then, oh Well, soldier on.


    Ok , above is a negative scenario, so how do we turn this into a positive outcome or think like a successful or rich (in the near future) person would ?

    Positive , sell one of the cars , get in some cash ,

    Potentially negative ;
    take a risk by making a substantial investment in an electric bike ( around 2k for a decent one )
    More than likely positive outcome ;
    reap the rewards of no running costs , quicker commute , not having to mix it up on the bus, better health (unless you get knocked down) , and potentially a new cycling hobby.

    Tell the story in a positive way , "so instead of I had to sell the car and get the bus "
    It's
    " did you hear I got a great new electric bike , saves me a fortune and I feel much better , do you want a go on it ? "

    Above I hope is A small example of how successful people's mindset help generate positivity and more success, a lot of it is perceived.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    When I started my company I had just two things in my possession; a dream and six million pounds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    One of best books I've read about personal finance is The Richest Man in Babylon. The lessons in it describe how to get wealthy.

    The opening to that book describes a 50 year old chariot builder, Bansir, who is wondering how he isn't rich, thinking about how he's spent his life working hard and has nothing to show for it. He thinks of his friend, Arkad, who he had gone to school with, who wasn't in any way different from him but who is per the title, the Richest man in the city. He wonders how in the hell he got rich and he didn't. He goes to find out and he get's the story from Arkad himself. It's basically about disciplining yourself to live below your means. Paying yourself first being one of the basic tenets. If you earn 10 coins, save 1 and spend the remaining 9. You pay yourself first. The title character, Arkad, was working as a labourer and asked a rich gold lender how he became wealthy and if he could do the same. He tells him to pay himself first.

    I found the road to wealth when I decided that a part of all I earned was mine to keep.

    Arkad thinks that's too simplistic but listens and learns. The gold lender is rich, he wants to be rich, he listens and tells himself that he'll try.

    After a while the gold lender asks him how he's getting on. Arkad says he is saving a sizeable sum but he's not rich yet. He is told to invest it and is advised to lend it to a local business which makes and sells shields. They use Arkads savings to buy bronze and pay him a rental on the money for doing so from their profits. (in the book he actually loses a years worth of savings by investing in what he thought were jewels but were actually glass, having failed he is told to not give up but to start again and does so, which makes the gold lender offer him advice where to invest it this time).

    When the gold lender finds out that Arkad is actually spending the rental income on fine food and fine clothes, and wants to buy a donkey in time, he admonishes him, telling him to loan it back again to the Shieldmaker to increase his rental even more, he can still live on the 9 coins as he has always done but at the same time to continue saving to invest more again and so it goes with more savings, more rental income.

    Money makes money and the money that money makes makes money.

    Arkad does this as a matter of habit, he lives below his means, and now that he is 50 he is now a very wealthy man. He became a gold lender himself just like his mentor still applying the basic principles he learned by simply asking him initially. He still lends money to shieldmakers but obviously branched out over time, lending money to many.

    I have an interest in common stocks and it's one of the most reliable ways for people to become rich through capital appreciation and the dividends such stocks throw off over time, taking advantage of compounding. Just like Arkad, you pay yourself first, as much as you can afford to but at a mimimum 10% to accrue savings to invest. You look for the highest quality companies on the planet that offer you the chance to own a part of them and you narrow down the list to about 20 to 40 common stocks.

    The big blue chip companies, the household names where when you buy a share in them, like the shieldmaker, they do business with that money. You get your rental as a dividend from them. A good indicator of quality are companies that increase their dividend annually. The longer they've done this for then the better the quality. They're labelled dividend aristocrats.

    For me, my diversified and focused list of quality dividend paying companies is the below.
    Exxon, Apple, Chevron, Conoco, Royal Dutch Shell, BP, Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Kimberly Clark, Colgate Palmolive, Microsoft, IBM, Emerson Electric, Johnson & Johnson, Procter & Gamble, Nestle, Clorox, Wal-Mart, US Bancorp, Anheuser Busch, Diageo, Kraft, Abbott Labs, 3M, Aflac, Brown Forman, Visa, Pfizer, Mastercard, Kellogg, Boeing, American Express, Unilever, JP Morgan, Becton Dickinson, Hershey, Philip Morris International, AT&T, Disney, McDonalds, Church & Dwight, Realty Income, Campbell Soup, Wells Fargo, and General Mills.

    However, it's one thing to recognise quality, it's another to get good or fair value for it. Just like anything else you don't want to over pay for the stock and see it languish for a couple of years or decades. It's not a case of I drink Pepsi every day so I'll invest in that.

    A basic method of valuation for me is to look at some fundamental indicators. For me, firstly it must be quality (see above list); then it must have the following to get me to invest in it. If it doesn't, I ignore it. I will wait until it is.

    1. The price earnings growth ratio must be less than 2.00 (based on the Peter Lynch book 'One Up on Wall St')
    2. The trailing and forward price earning ratio must be below 20. Trailing is the last known earnings/forward is based on analyst estimations)
    3. The beta (i.e. the volatility of the stock price) must be below 1.50. Better if below 1.00
    4. Finally, the stock price must be trading at or near to the 12 month low. To give a margin of safety.

    If all good, then, that 'pay myself first' savings are invested in the stock adding to a growing portfolio, it will never be sold as we collect the dividend in perpetuity.

    I keep saving and I keep checking the above against 'my' companies every week. Most times the PEG ratio is enough for me to know straight away to ignore it for now. Trading costs here were quite high upwards of €40 per trade. Low cost brokers now make investing cost effective.

    The problem is that while such companies are excellent businesses in and of themselves, the likes of Coca Cola, Nike and Colgate Palmolive seem to always trade at premium prices reflecting the quality of the earnings. That's where stock market crashes (or corrections) come into play. You wait. Sitting on your ass patiently for corrections just like the past couple of weeks. (I got to buy more AT&T, Starbucks, Exxon and I finally got some Disney stock). When my one year old daughter retires, she will be getting dividends from The Walt Disney Company in the 2080's.

    While the news talks of crashes and panics etc, in reality it's just over valued prices correcting themselves back to the reality of underlying earnings. You then pick up the quality but at a fair price. The market is so overvalued that Coke and Colgate are still too pricey. It will take a major correction (20-30%) for them to be added to the portfolio, despite them being reliable dividend payers, the price is still to pricey. For example, Starbucks got sold off big time when Lehmans collapsed. The stock price dropped to below a cup of their coffee (. Who will be going to Starbucks anymore? The world is falling in!. It split 2 for 1 in 2015 and is now over $54. I didn't invest until much, much later :( I bought an iPod in 2004 and thought it was brilliant, thought everyone will get one of these, I thought about investing €3,000 in the stock at $38 that summer. I didn't. If I had the discipline of Arkad and the fortitude that would now be $246,000. Nobody's perfect. Apple might have tanked and I'd have lost 3k or I could have doubled my money thought myself a market wizard and sold up. But to have done so would have meant I actually lost over $200,000. You never sell. Ever.

    Another aspect to how people get rich is what to do with the dividends. Like Arkad, you could spend them on 'stuff' but his mentor was right to tell him to reinvest them. Instead of buying stuff, reinvest it. While buying more Exxon Mobil stock with Exxon Mobil dividends is great in and of itself (it's called Dripping), what if Exxon stock is actually too pricey? The trick here is to not automatically reinvest but pool together the dividends from the other over priced stocks in your portfolio and invest them (along with your habitual paying yourself savings) in ones that are trading at fair value per your fundamental criteria.

    Dripping the dividend though over many years and decades can still make you very wealthy. A $1,000 investment in Apple in January 1988 is now $132,000. That company went through some serious problems but that's another lesson to be learned. The discipline to never touch the principal. You could have sold that stock at any point and done something else with it but time is also important and you would have missed out on the appreciation in price. You never sell unless absolutely necessary.

    “If the job has been correctly done when stock is purchased, the time to sell it is almost never.” - Phil Fisher.

    The same $1,000 invested in quality, boring blue chip companies in January 1988 is listed below. You have invested 'blindly'. Like above where you think just because you like Pepsi means you will just buy the stock there and then without any consideraton for valuation. You just think that you use a Mac and you like Apple, you use Johnsons baby oil, you use Fairy liquid, Head and Shoulders, you get those at Walmart and you smoke like a trooper.

    Procter & Gamble - $33,836
    Johnson & Johnson - $53,432
    Walmart - $43,150
    Altria (formerly Philip Morris) - $163,000

    That's successful investing. That's by dripping the dividend, and never selling through the rollercoaster of bull and bear markets. A reward for discipline.

    Let's say you will save your 10% and at the end of the start of the year you'll buy $250 more of each stock above. You see yourself, like Arkad, as a co-owner of the business and you are lending them more of your money to do business for the year ahead. What would the difference be?

    Apple - $764,000
    Procter & Gamble - $84,647
    Johnson & Johnson - $136,849
    Walmart - $104,275
    Altria (formerly Philip Morris) - $381,000

    So having invested the initial $5,000 plus an addtional $7,500 in each (i.e. $250 every January) you now have a portfolio worth $1.47 million. Taking a 2% dividend yield on that then you're getting $29,415 a year in 'rental' income alone. Now imagine reinvesting that $29k in other fair value quality common stocks and watch it grow exponentially. Having a portfolio of 1.4 million from a cost basis of just over $37k over 30 years is rich by anyone's estimation.

    You buy them at fair value, get them on your personal or family portfolio and you never sell, letting dividends, time and compounding do their magic. You buy more when they match your criteria and you get on with your life, getting rich over time.

    That's how people get rich (with stock investing at least).

    The other aspect is trading stocks, buying low selling high, yield curves, technical indicators, trend following metrics etc. That's too complex for me. That for me is over complicating something simple. I'll leave it to Warren Buffett to explain;

    There seems to be some perverse human characteristic that likes to make easy things difficult. Whether we're talking about socks or stocks, I like buying quality merchandise when it is marked down

    We're not a country of investors. My mother had €30,000 in a credit union account during the financial crisis in 2008-09. Not all of her savings. She had more. I remember telling her that now was the best time to invest it. She was frightened for very obvious reasons, prices were falling for everything. It was too risky. It was all over the news. It was safer under the mattress for people. She actually had an additional €7,000 in 50 euro notes under the couch. I used to give her €200 a month (I was single and stayed at home during weekends) and she was just piling it up under the couch.

    I tried to convince her as best I could to set up a trading account and to invest. She didn't in the end. She let that money sit earning a 'dividend' of €200 a year before the DIRT tax. The €7,000 was earning nothing but dust and crumbs. Literally.

    It was such a waste of money. That same €30,000 if invested during the big stock market 'Sale', diversified across the very safest companies listed above would be worth just over $200,000 today. A dividend yield of 3% would be making her just over €4,000 after tax this year. That's a 13% annual yield on her inital 30k from 9 years ago. She could use it to pay her rent, pay for her fuel costs whatever she wanted to do. All I know is that the €4,000 she would have made this year, would have been €4,400 next year because such companies raise their dividends every year. A 14.6% yield on her 30k next year etc etc etc. That money is still resting in the account earning a 'dividend'. If she set and forgot it for the next 20 years, at the end of year 20, she would have been getting €26,910. Almost as much as her investment amount 30 years prior.

    So pay yourselves first. Let it build up. Invest it when the time comes with the best companies on the planet. Never sell. Get rich. In time.

    Here's the list for this week. First thing Monday I fill this out.
    Anything with a red circle and I monitor the price for the week and ignore the rest.

    e.g. I don't own Apple stock but the only thing is the lowest price over the past year has been 132. It's 156 now. It's better to get it for 132 than for 180. If it drops lower then I'll invest and own a very small piece of the business and will never sell it.

    441484.JPG

    Investing in blue chip stocks can be one of the most profitable things a person can do over their lifetime if they are careful to select a basket of shares in strong companies at reasonable valuations and a history of paying out the increasing profits in the form of cash dividends.
    Source: https://www.thebalance.com/the-benefits-of-owning-blue-chip-stocks-356063


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Bigus wrote: »
    Ok , above is a negative scenario, so how do we turn this into a positive outcome or think like a successful or rich (in the near future) person would ?

    Positive , sell one of the cars , get in some cash ,

    Potentially negative ;
    take a risk by making a substantial investment in an electric bike ( around 2k for a decent one )
    More than likely positive outcome ;
    reap the rewards of no running costs , quicker commute , not having to mix it up on the bus, better health (unless you get knocked down) , and potentially a new cycling hobby.

    Tell the story in a positive way , "so instead of I had to sell the car and get the bus "
    It's
    " did you hear I got a great new electric bike , saves me a fortune and I feel much better , do you want a go on it ? "

    Above I hope is A small example of how successful people's mindset help generate positivity and more success, a lot of it is perceived.

    In general yes the story isn't positive but I'm generally an optimistic person hence why I hope things will improve and what I can do to improve them.
    It's an uphill battle and a pain in the hole.
    Selling one of the cars would free up a lot of cash and tbh would probably settle us down = less stress.
    Anyway, I wouldn't dream of buying an electrical bike - I'd freeze my balls off here.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Juran


    Work in a country with high wages and low taxes - that's what I am doing .... to pay off my mortgage, and have very good  savings. It is a big sacrifice being away from family and friends, and commuting every couple of weekend, but  achieving a comfortable lifestyle  wasn't going to happen with the Irish tax man taking half of my earnings in Ireland. I will move back after a few years, work 6 months of the year to have time off to travel and enjoy life....  then I will consider health and happiness as my wealth indicator.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    bear1 wrote: »
    The way things are going for me recently I suspect I'll never be rich enough to treat my family the way they should.
    Took a bad hit in 2017 which has just dominoed it's way since.
    Since mid January I've clocked up roughly 40 hours of overtime just to get more cash in.
    Sadly This won't keep happening as I'm not able for the 60 hour weeks and Saturday work for much longer so I've decided to go down the drastic option of selling one of our cars and downgrade to an older more basic car to free up some cash or worst case scenario we become a 1 car household and I take the bus.
    It can be very depressing but we have to soldier on.
    Baby 2 on the way soon so I want to get the finances back as quick as possible.
    Have a potential new job prospect with jp which could net me 40% more net pay a month so that would be a good start.. if I get it.
    If not then, oh Well, soldier on.

    Just to re-visit this.
    I ended up selling the car the same day I put it up for sale.
    Didn't get the full asking price obviously but managed to get enough to bring us back from the brink and breathe.
    I'm paid in 2 weeks and I'll get a portion of my over hours paid too so it looks (for now) that the planning and sacrificing has paid off :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    This thread reminds me of a quite I heard on a podcast a few weeks a go.

    “There are two paths in life - Freedom or Security.

    The person who chooses security gets neither.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Juran wrote: »
    Work in a country with high wages and low taxes - that's what I am doing .... to pay off my mortgage, and have very good  savings. It is a big sacrifice being away from family and friends, and commuting every couple of weekend, but  achieving a comfortable lifestyle  wasn't going to happen with the Irish tax man taking half of my earnings in Ireland. I will move back after a few years, work 6 months of the year to have time off to travel and enjoy life....  then I will consider health and happiness as my wealth indicator.

    Enjoy it while you can, the reason you can work in a low tax economy is because the state you work in supplement's it tax take from oil. Unfair to criticise Ireland in this respect since we famously don't have oil.


  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭CastielJ


    inherited or risky plan or some manipulation


  • Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Juran


    Avatar MIA

    In fact I work in the EU, not an oil rich country - plus I pay my taxes in the EU country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    Juran wrote: »
    Avatar MIA

    In fact I work in the EU, not an oil rich country - plus I pay my taxes in the EU country.

    I’m guessing an eastern european country


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Juran wrote: »
    Avatar MIA

    In fact I work in the EU, not an oil rich country - plus I pay my taxes in the EU country.

    Germany?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭jigglypuffstuff


    I am so fed up with just about making ends meet month to month. What jobs are the wealthy people doing? Do they work multiple jobs? When I take on more hours I get caught with tax so it ends up making only a small difference which is disheartening. Lots of people in the same situation I am sure has anyone any tips on how to get out of this situation? Career change perhaps? I live frugally so can’t cut back anywhere else.


    Perhaps get off of the mentality that money equates to being rich . Forget everything you think you know about it, because it's a false construct imo

    If you have enough money to put a roof over your head pay the bills and eat you should be extremely grateful, as large proportion of the world's population cannot. Anything after that is non essential and quite frankly unnecessary.

    Find value in your actions and your loved ones and your work. That should suffice

    In simple terms, you're looking at the glass the wrong way


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    pone2012 wrote: »
    Perhaps get off of the mentality that money equates to being rich . Forget everything you think you know about it, because it's a false construct imo

    If you have enough money to put a roof over your head pay the bills and eat you should be extremely grateful, as large proportion of the world's population cannot. Anything after that is non essential and quite frankly unnecessary.

    Find value in your actions and your loved ones and your work. That should suffice

    In simple terms, you're looking at the glass the wrong way

    I can fully see what you mean and wish I had the same mentality, it may come with age (hopefully). There is no way though that all else being equal (i.e. all your family and friends being happy and healthy) that it wouldn’t be better to be rich in a monetary sense. Being able to have a beautiful home, lots of fancy holidays, nice car, dinners and expensive nights out, spa days,etc. With all else being equal (as in not working all day every day) that is better surely than just appreciating basic living?


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